Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod

[MRItechssuck]

The question was will it be permanent.

If a researcher can get lucky and trick the brain. Trick it into permanency? I disagree and there is certainly zero proof.

The problem is, no one has the brain owner manual... this is all a guess, so to say it will be permanent won't ever be proven. There is no way to know until people actually have success and keep that success... it is too new, so this is all wishful thinking.

Your theory on the brain "turning up the gain" has no basis in fact, no one knows.

 

[FGG]

In my understanding, although noise induced tinnitus (and perhaps some other types?) is caused by damage, the sound of tinnitus is in a sense the brain being tricked into turning up the gain to account for the missing sound. So it's not precisely brain damage, but damage in the cochlea that influences the brain into a certain response. So, if the brain can be tricked into this response, why couldn't it be tricked out of it?

I think there is a ton of evidence of this in regards to other conditions (e.g.. phantom limb pain treated with mirror therapy).

 

[erik]

So, if the brain can be tricked into this response, why couldn't it be tricked out of it?

If it can, then it must be easier said than done since all the devices in the past 10 years have pretty much been failures. I am not saying that Lenire is part of this group yet, though it appears not to be the breakthru treatment that most were hoping for.

From the beginning I have never been a big believer in Neuromod's version of sound stimuli electric pulse treatment. I think tinnitus is far too entrenched in the brain for this lightweight approach.

 

[AfroSnowman]

I'm off for Ireland. It should be about 30 hours door to door. In case anyone is wondering I'm going to be sporting foam ear plugs under noise canceling headphones. Do I win an award for the longest journey for the opportunity to flip the coin for noticeable improvement?

In my favor mild hearing loss, very somatic, no depression or anxiety, and relatively short term member of the tinnitus club. Against me... raging tinnitus.

I guess I'm putting my money on me.

It's funny now that I am on my way to hopefully be approved for the device I find myself a little blue. I am under no illusions that this is at best a 50-50 shot at getting my life back. It is like holding a lottery ticket; until you see the numbers you may be won. Once I check the numbers that potential is gone forever, used up. Maybe I'll win but I will sure miss that hope I've had if I lose.

 

[PeterPan]

I can answer this question and will post a chart sourced from the Lenire User Experience Survey when I get home tonight (in about 11 hours).

We have severity information in terms of TFI and if I recall correctly, the average is about 49, which is quite high

Hi.

Here is the Tinnitus Severity information from the Lenire User Experience Group at baseline to date. It is measured by TFI (Tinnitus Functional Index.

This is from 34 participants. Average is 46.5, standard deviation 19.8.

 

[all to gain]

Hi.

Here is the Tinnitus Severity information from the Lenire User Experience Group at baseline to date. It is measured by TFI (Tinnitus Functional Index.

View attachment 34537

This is from 34 participants. Average is 46.5, standard deviation 19.8.

Thanks.

I know you consider 46.5 quite high, but for someone like me who scores 92 I would consider it low.

I wonder if it's really worth for someone like me who has non-somatic and intrusive tinnitus and who also suffers from OCD/Anxiety bothering to even try Lenire.

 

[Bartoli]

I think there is a ton of evidence of this in regards to other conditions (e.g.. phantom limb pain treated with mirror therapy).

That's a very good example that I also thought of on occasions. I happen to know someone who did mirror therapy. Took a long time to catch on. Eventually it did, but he didn't keep at it and eventually his phantom pain came back... I guess he thought it was too time-consuming when you can also pop a pill.

 

[alanisnotadj]

Just talked to a very nice gentleman in Neuromod's waiting room. He told me he was part of the trials and Lenire worked really well on him to the point that his tinnitus was almost gone or very much reduced. He was very reluctant to give the device back as it had been such a success on him.

However, the tinnitus came back so he was keen on using Lenire again. His tinnitus was noise induced and he had it for quite a few years. He also told me that Lenire worked in a very gradual way for him, that improvements came very slowly.

In any case it was very uplifting to talk in the flesh with someone who had a good experience with Lenire.

 

[UKBloke]

I think there is a ton of evidence of this in regards to other conditions (e.g.. phantom limb pain treated with mirror therapy).

I actually caught the original UK TV broadcast of the programme featuring Dr. Ramachandran who treated phantom limb pain using mirror therapy. It blew my mind watching it back then, and still does today. So much so that I believe there may be a correlation between this and a new form of tinnitus treatment. I recently emailed said doctor to try and get his view on it but never received a reply. That said, there are a number of people within his faculty that might speak about it. It could make for an interesting Tinnitus Talk Podcast episode.

@jmasterj thank you for the recent post in the Lenire User Experiences thread regarding your own MML. Having actual raw data like this helps a lot.

 

[UKBloke]

I believe that theory wholeheartedly. A little bit of self-induced placebo'ing...

I wholeheartedly agree with that theory as well. In fact this kind of self-induced placebo'ing is why I have a problem with TFI.

The following comment isn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just a general comment that I'm putting out there; I believe that until the medical community gets past TFI, which is a fundamentally flawed process in my view, and starts to treat tinnitus in a more empirical way, we as patients are going to continue on this carousel.

I'm not saying that psychological metrics shouldn't be considered, but what I am saying is that these should come at the end of the physical treatment process, not before.

 

[Jefferson Nunn]

I know that Lenire is the first to market and all of that... but what are the chances of an alternative device that works similar to Lenire coming to market sooner? Just like "Coke" and "Pepsi"?

 

[brokensoul]

Is anyone keeping an overview of who has actually improved their tinnitus by using Lenire (such as RedKnight, Lucky97, ...)?

With Lucky97's recent feedback my list of improvers is down to 1, i.e. RedKnight, who also explained he didn't have tinnitus for a long time when he started using Lenire (an important fact to take into account).

Can someone please tell me if there are other improvers I may have missed?

Despite not seeing convincing results so far, I would like to thank all the people out there for trying this treatment and providing feedback to the Tinnitus Talk community. I wish you all the best and I hope there's still a chance to see improvements down the road.

 

[Ruse]

If it can, then it must be easier said than done since all the devices in the past 10 years have pretty much been failures.

Don't recall any other bimodal neuromodulation devices that have been 'failures' in the past 10 years, please elaborate?

 

[GlennS]

Trick it into permanency? I disagree and there is certainly zero proof.

Brain plasticity IS a thing. For instance, I used to have dyslexia as a kid. I grew out of it. Of course, that was a developing brain.

 

[El BUZZ]

If it can, then it must be easier said than done since all the devices in the past 10 years have pretty much been failures. I am not saying that Lenire is part of this group yet, though it appears not to be the breakthru treatment that most were hoping for.

From the beginning I have never been a big believer in Neuromod's version of sound stimuli electric pulse treatment. I think tinnitus is far too entrenched in the brain for this lightweight approach.

You're not going to give it a try?

 

[FGG]

I actually caught the original UK TV broadcast of the programme featuring Dr. Ramachandran who treated phantom limb pain using mirror therapy. It blew my mind watching it back then, and still does today. So much so that I believe there may be a correlation between this and a new form of tinnitus treatment. I recently emailed said doctor to try and get his view on it but never received a reply. That said, there are a number of people within his faculty that might speak about it. It could make for an interesting Tinnitus Talk Podcast episode.

An expert in neuroplasticity as a general topic (and their theories/understanding on how it could pertain to both regenerative treatments and bimodal stimulation) would make a *very* worthwhile podcast imo. I wonder what expert would fit this best.

 

[alanisnotadj]

I just wanted to update everyone since I got back stateside yesterday. I received my device on Friday and everything went smoothly.

I was able to do treatments for the first three days, but with traveling I haven't been able to stick to a schedule. Now that I am back I will really stick to it starting tomorrow.

A couple things of note for everyone. I was told the tongue tip is now rated to last 320 hours or 320 days of treatment. I believe in the early stages they were recommending less.

Also, I asked to move my follow up appointment and they suggested looking at 8 -10 weeks for the follow up instead of the six. You can certainly keep it at six, but I am wondering if they have found something different. I am not sure. It was just suggested to me. It makes my life a little bit easier since I have to travel so far.

As far as my tinnitus goes, since this has been discussed a lot in the other thread, my tinnitus is very somatic. I can modulate it with jaw and neck movements. I have mild hearing loss in the upper frequencies, being on the edge of moderate at 8 kHz. I have perfect word scores and my MML was 48 dB. Real world it takes about 70 dB to mask.

Hopefully, this helps those with questions and I will follow up again in three weeks.

You're right. They also told me that they might switch to a 10-week gap between check ups.

 

[all to gain]

With Lucky97's recent feedback my list of improvers is down to 1, i.e. RedKnight, who also explained he didn't have tinnitus for a long time when he started using Lenire (an important fact to take into account).

Can someone please tell me if there are other improvers I may have missed?

Despite not seeing convincing results so far, I would like to thank all the people out there for trying this treatment and providing feedback to the Tinnitus Talk community. I wish you all the best and I hope there's still a chance to see improvements down the road.

1 out of how many?

 

[El BUZZ]

With Lucky97's recent feedback my list of improvers is down to 1, i.e. RedKnight, who also explained he didn't have tinnitus for a long time when he started using Lenire (an important fact to take into account).

Can someone please tell me if there are other improvers I may have missed?

Despite not seeing convincing results so far, I would like to thank all the people out there for trying this treatment and providing feedback to the Tinnitus Talk community. I wish you all the best and I hope there's still a chance to see improvements down the road.

I don't have other users' names here who have seen positive benefits but my impression is that you are stretching that number quite a lot. I hope someone with more information hops and sheds some light on this.

 

[El BUZZ]

I think it could be time to repeat the question:

Do you trust Lenire?

Thumb up = Yes
Hug = No

 

[LongWait]

Lenire has been out for a while now.

As things are, I'm already thinking I'm pissing in the wind expecting a noticeable improvement, and unless the feedback improves, I won't be trying it.

There's a lot of people wanting to try it, Neuromod knows they are onto a winner. It will take a couple of years for the truth, good or bad, to unfold. Obviously I respect their research.

 

[Liz Windsor]

I'm off for Ireland. It should be about 30 hours door to door. In case anyone is wondering I'm going to be sporting foam ear plugs under noise canceling headphones. Do I win an award for the longest journey for the opportunity to flip the coin for noticeable improvement?

In my favor mild hearing loss, very somatic, no depression or anxiety, and relatively short term member of the tinnitus club. Against me... raging tinnitus.

I guess I'm putting my money on me.

It's funny now that I am on my way to hopefully be approved for the device I find myself a little blue. I am under no illusions that this is at best a 50-50 shot at getting my life back. It is like holding a lottery ticket; until you see the numbers you may be won. Once I check the numbers that potential is gone forever, used up. Maybe I'll win but I will sure miss that hope I've had if I lose.

Good luck. A long journey to make. I hope it helps.

 

[MRItechssuck]

Brain plasticity IS a thing. For instance, I used to have dyslexia as a kid. I grew out of it. Of course, that was a developing brain.

I agree, I believe that's how my mild tinnitus went away 15 years ago. It took 4 years. But there is no proof other than a theory.

This is not something that can be seen on a brain scan, like an injured brain taking over and moving functions to working parts.

Maybe it's semantics. Lenire hasn't been around long enough to call anything permanent, and there are few statistics pointing to who it will help.

 

[Laure Chauvin]

Good luck. A long journey to make. I hope it helps.

Hello Liz, how do you feel now since you have been using Lenire for 12 weeks?

 

[DaveFromChicago]

Erik's phrase "too lightweight an approach" exactly corroborates my concern.

This was precisely the eventual conclusion I reached when I tried Desyncra; I could tell that it was just not "reaching in" to any degree (and I had similar experiences with various migraine treatments).

However, I have no grounds for such uninformed speculation.

I will rely on the recommendations of my audiologist.

 

[GlennS]

I think it could be time to repeat the question:

Do you trust Lenire?

Thumb up = Yes
Hug = No

Trust... but verify.

 

[brokensoul]

I don't have other users' names here who have seen positive benefits but my impression is that you are stretching that number quite a lot. I hope someone with more information hops and sheds some light on this.

Well, I hope so too, that's why I am asking again! I presume that all the people who have been following the Lenire threads in detail would know better than me which other Tinnitus Talk users have improved.

When I went through the User Experiences thread I only found two people and recently @Lucky97 completely changed his opinion on Lenire.

 

[brokensoul]

1 out of how many?

I asked this before to get a general idea already, however the reply was to wait until April when @PeterPan has processed all data.

I thought someone was surely maintaining some unofficial statistics, but guess not. So I tried to look at the reports myself and I can honestly only find two improvers of which one seemed to have changed his mind. I have no idea how many Tinnitus Talk users are currently using Lenire though.

 

[Ruse]

Your theory on the brain "turning up the gain" has no basis in fact, no one knows.

This is not something that can be seen on a brain scan, like an injured brain taking over and moving functions to working parts.

Not true according to Susan Shore.

"Behavioral and functional imaging studies of human tinnitus sufferers have corroborated several of the changes reported above from animal studies, including increased gain or hyperactivity in central pathways"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4895692/

 

[El BUZZ]

I agree, I believe that's how my mild tinnitus went away 15 years ago. It took 4 years. But there is no proof other than a theory.

This is not something that can be seen on a brain scan, like an injured brain taking over and moving functions to working parts.

Maybe it's semantics. Lenire hasn't been around long enough to call anything permanent, and there are few statistics pointing to who it will help.

Let's push that further!

Perhaps everyone using Lenire will wake up stuttering, blinking an eye and peeing their pants in ten years time due to brain malfunction. It's legitimate speculation. As everything we can say about Lenire so far.

Thing is it is the most promising finding available to the public ever. Now toss the coin.