Lenire — Bimodal Stimulation Treatment by Neuromod
- Thread starter Tinnitus Talk
- Start date
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It's November Ruse, if Lenire was efficient as Neuromod claims, we'd see similar results in the general population (by now, I was willing to wait post 12 weeks).
I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but what @GlennS said earlier about "the device in the wild" is when the real results fly. At best, it seems like a minority do in fact get a very light reduction after 10-12 weeks. But it's nowhere near as prominent as Neuromod claimed.
ajc
Member
- Feb 6, 2018
- 1,170
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2002; spike 2009; worse 2017-18
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud music - noise damage
And for good reason... people shouldn't be buying this unfinished crap when better ones from Michigan and Minnesota are underway.
I don't understand your and some others' mentality... giving Neuromod a free pass at every turn. They already brought a device to market (which looked exactly the same as Lenire) in 2015 which failed like your average snake oil, that was called MuteButton... and now they have brought another device to market and they keep postponing the release of their clinical trial results. It screams all kinds of problems to me. And I'm yet to see one very successful report using Lenire...
Why are you giving this company so much goodwill?
- May 22, 2019
- 257
- Tinnitus Since
- 01/2019
- Cause of Tinnitus
- NIHL & TMJ
Guys seriously... TWO people on here have finished the 12 week treatment (who could still benefit in the coming weeks) and we have seen @Redknight with a definite reduction in volume and heard of another Lenire user reporting a 10 dB reduction.
That's a 50/50 split so far albeit with a very unreliable sample size.
If we get to 10-15 reviews on this forum and the majority have had no effect, then maybe that would be time to stop and consider but until then I really don't see how people can be forming any conclusions.
This is the last I'm going to be debating this point until we have more reviews as I don't think the constant arm chair critiquing is helping anyone.
That's a 50/50 split so far albeit with a very unreliable sample size.
If we get to 10-15 reviews on this forum and the majority have had no effect, then maybe that would be time to stop and consider but until then I really don't see how people can be forming any conclusions.
This is the last I'm going to be debating this point until we have more reviews as I don't think the constant arm chair critiquing is helping anyone.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not arguing with you. I'm not saying Lenire is snake oil or it's a scam. I just don't think it's "been in the oven" as long as it should have been. Let's remember it was Neuromod that outsourced Hubert Lim to get pointers from Minnesota.
And yes that is true we have two good success stories. But it's a far cry from the 86%/66%(significant) claim as of now. I'm always willing to come back in December and see how the vast majority do after 12 weeks.
- Sep 17, 2017
- 231
- Tinnitus Since
- 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Medical mistake
Any of the Lenire users experiencing ear spasms?
Or I don't know what they are called, but my ear is like vibrating from time to time.
Or I don't know what they are called, but my ear is like vibrating from time to time.
@Heinrich_S7 is being reasonable here. When the user reports were not responding at 6 weeks, people were saying just wait until they've gone the full 12 weeks. Now that most of the first batch are nearing or have reached the end and results aren't really improving, now people are saying just let them keep using it in the hopes it just takes longer. And sure, that could happen, but it doesn't inspire confidence and it doesn't match what Hubert Lim said in the Vimeo video. Lim said that the majority of the effect of Lenire manifests within the first six weeks and then plateaus (hence the reprogramming). The hearsay that Neuromod are now telling people that it routinely takes over 12 weeks contradicts this. It sounds more like an excuse, frankly.
Sure, it could just be that the nature of the tinnitus of those here who have been volunteering their user reports just happens to be the less responsive type. But you can see how the longer this goes on and the more people reporting ho hum results at best the harder it is to rationalize.
But really, 12 weeks of using this thing twice a day 30 minutes a pop is a lot of biohacking. It seems reasonable to believe that if it's going to help at all, you're going to start feeling the effect within the first 12 weeks.
So if you come to the conclusion that those who are in overtime mode praying for a miracle are never going to improve, then you've got to also conclude that the reports in the field do not match the hype. (And I'm not even mentioning those who have had their tinnitus actually worsen.)
Now sure, we can just stop talking about this and resume the discussion in another, let's say, 3 or 6 months, but what do you think the odds are that the reports we're hearing will dramatically improve? I'd say low, but I'll be more than happy to eat my words.
This is not being negative for the sake of being negative. It's trying to separate out hope and see things for how it is.
If this is what it is and Neuromod knows it then I would hope they continue to use the early adopter data to tweak the settings. Then over a wider time-horizon, like a year, we may see better responses.
Sure, it could just be that the nature of the tinnitus of those here who have been volunteering their user reports just happens to be the less responsive type. But you can see how the longer this goes on and the more people reporting ho hum results at best the harder it is to rationalize.
But really, 12 weeks of using this thing twice a day 30 minutes a pop is a lot of biohacking. It seems reasonable to believe that if it's going to help at all, you're going to start feeling the effect within the first 12 weeks.
So if you come to the conclusion that those who are in overtime mode praying for a miracle are never going to improve, then you've got to also conclude that the reports in the field do not match the hype. (And I'm not even mentioning those who have had their tinnitus actually worsen.)
Now sure, we can just stop talking about this and resume the discussion in another, let's say, 3 or 6 months, but what do you think the odds are that the reports we're hearing will dramatically improve? I'd say low, but I'll be more than happy to eat my words.
This is not being negative for the sake of being negative. It's trying to separate out hope and see things for how it is.
If this is what it is and Neuromod knows it then I would hope they continue to use the early adopter data to tweak the settings. Then over a wider time-horizon, like a year, we may see better responses.
Doesn't it seem a little alarming that multiple users see a worsening with Lenire use? Even if it is minor or temporary. Lenire even advises at the consult that a worsening is common occurrence and nothing to be worried about.
To me that raises a red flag that the timings they use are not correct or ineffective. Could also be the Bluetooth headphone latency is a real issue and not just a conspiracy theory.
Compare these results to Dr. Shore's published study trial and there is a big difference. Dr. Shore's device results showed an average of 12 dB reduction in tinnitus loudness after only 4 weeks with 2 people experiencing elimination of their tinnitus. Zero cases of worsening were experienced.
I want Lenire to work and be as effective as possible just like everyone else. I am rooting for them to succeed so that it benefits all of us. I signed up for Lenire as soon as it became available, I just wasn't lucky enough to get an appointment. But as time goes on I am not going to ignore the real world results people are reporting and my own common sense.
Couldn't have put it better myself Glenn. I agree 100%.
I'm going to come back to this thread in early January, we will be "far beyond" 12 weeks at that point. I swear they are still going to keep giving Neuromod a free pass even if there isn't anything big or substantial then.
Dr. Shore and Minnesota's devices begin to get results in 1-3 days, if Lenire takes 2-3 months of spikes just to get a minuscule reduction in volume, then I think something is seriously wrong with Lenire's design. Something isn't right (I'm not saying it's the Bluetooth specifically either, but it would be funny if that's what was skewing results). There is something seriously flawed under the hood.
It's a prototype, plain and simple. The first of it's kind. Like the Oculus DK1/DK2.
I'm for optimism, I consider myself an optimist. But there is a difference in being optimistic and outright naive.
Hi there,
Here in Paris, I've tried electrical stimulation two times. First time it did significantly reduce my tinnitus, but it ultimately came back a few weeks later. I've tried other treatments, without success. Then I went back to electrical stimulation but noticed no positive results that time.
All in all, electrical stimulation is the only treatment that actually reduced my tinnitus.
I will certainly follow up on Lenire...
Here in Paris, I've tried electrical stimulation two times. First time it did significantly reduce my tinnitus, but it ultimately came back a few weeks later. I've tried other treatments, without success. Then I went back to electrical stimulation but noticed no positive results that time.
All in all, electrical stimulation is the only treatment that actually reduced my tinnitus.
I will certainly follow up on Lenire...
- Sep 17, 2017
- 231
- Tinnitus Since
- 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Medical mistake
- Sep 17, 2017
- 231
- Tinnitus Since
- 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Medical mistake
MRItechssuck
Member
After the night I just had I hope ANY device works, I'll buy 3 of each.
Could someone sum up the three different approaches to these devices? They all seem similar to me.
Could someone sum up the three different approaches to these devices? They all seem similar to me.
Link below. But the electrical stimulation program is not mentioned here:
http://orl-falguiere.net
(it's in French of course)
The "electro acoustic" treatment is mentioned here, bottom of the page, use Google Translate:
http://orl-falguiere.net/auditions-et-acouphenes.html
Anyway, this program was consisted of one 30 minute session every 5-6 days, 6 times in total. That's it.
Neuromod seems a lot more intense and modern to me.
They all pretty much are the same technology, essentially one part of the device stimulates the brain via the nerves with electrical stimulation and another part stimulates the brain with sound, both of these signals specifically timed. Though it is done differently among the three.
It could be that's what makes one device better than the other, University of Michigan's first trial results seem way better than Neuromod's Lenire, but Neuromod's Lenire had okay trial results too with a much larger patient population. Using Bluetooth heaphones might also be messing with the Lenire timing and maybe is what makes some people worse in the beginning.
So far it just seems it takes Lenire much longer to see benefits in most people, and also makes most of them worse early in the treatment before they start getting better. That's probably why you are seeing a few skeptics here and there, but it's way too soon for any conclusions. We have some users report some good results too, even if they're not done with the treatment we have people saying it is working. The only thing we can conclude right now is that Dr. Shore's device looks better but we will only get that MAYBE next year if we're lucky and Lenire is out now.
@GlennS You two guys can do what you want, wait to get, never get it, it's fine and YOUR choice. You guys make some points and we have heard you out but regurgitating the same stuff over and over again on here is very selfish of you two. It's like you guys want to push me to change MY choice.
Well I'm telling you I'm sick of wasting MY time reading YOUR same garbage over and over again, and I'm sure a lot of people on here feel the same way.
You're talking to some of the severest of the severe. I'm one of them now, my got tinnitus much worse 3 months ago and hasn't improved much.
I've measured the MML. It's not much more to cover up with white noise with headphones, but it's made the difference between me hearing it mostly only at home and now everywhere I go. That tiny difference, is all I would need.
Many of us on here are probably thinking the same thing and are more than willing to pay and take the risks for some of the improvements we've seen here.
Be considerate. If you don't like it, fine but we're not giving out any awards for that. I don't want to have to block you two, but you guys are like robot dialers at this point. If you have something new to say I gladly welcome it, but you guys have been broken records for weeks now.
- Sep 17, 2017
- 231
- Tinnitus Since
- 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Medical mistake
Why didn't you complete the full program if one session gave you a noteworthy reduction?
- Feb 15, 2019
- 15
- Tinnitus Since
- 09/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Benzo tapering
Dear Clearance,
Having not heard from you, I would really appreciate if you could share what's your current Lenire experience. Because you have been in and out of tinnitus via Neuromod's device twice before, and started the Lenire treatment (the third time using their device) among the first batch of users in mid-July 2019.
The full program was 6 sessions. I did complete it.
I just did the program twice, a second time when my tinnitus came back weeks later. No reduction in my tinnitus after the second try.
Hello Eric, I'm French too.
Is it the same thing as TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation)?
I think Lenire has nothing to do with this program you talk about.
Lenire is based on bimodal neuromodulation to calm the over-excited auditory system.
How do you think my tinnitus is? When I had liquid put into my left ear to clean it out my tinnitus felt excruciatingly loud. And how is this relevant, exactly? Are we really gonna go down the "My tinnitus is worse than your tinnitus" road? (Speaking of which, we haven't heard from Allan lately. His already terrible tinnitus was made worse by Lenire. I hope he's doing better.)
You think this thread should be about the necessary therapeutic effect of simply waxing nostalgic by pretending Lenire works better than the incoming data suggests?
I think both of us have been very diplomatic in not just throwing Neuromod under the bus or accusing them of being scammers. We're just trying to be objective, which I guess is triggering to the desperate.
None of which go beyond placebo, IMHO.
Chris, I understand that you're suffering 100%. Tinnitus is a living hell of a condition that people who don't have will never be able to comprehend. And it's a shame that with all our science and technology we can't get a sound out of our head. But I believe in the 2020s we will get fixed up one way or another. I am optimistic about the near future.
But I have already made it clear from the post you quoted, I'm going to sit out 2 months/8 weeks from this point, you don't have to block me, I'm going to let it sit for a few months. My last real skeptical post before today was on October 7-8th, you can go in my history and look. I'm not going to stick around here and say if it does or doesn't work. If you want to try it, it's fine, I'm not going to try and stop you at all. I'm all for people going ahead and trying the device. Someone always has to be the first when it comes to these new technologies.
When 2020 gets here, I'll pop in, give my take on the future data, and perhaps decide to cave in and buy it if it works for the slight majority of users on here.
Chris, what I care about is if it works for us or not, that's my position. I'm all for optimism and positive thinking. But no amount of wishing on our end makes something true, reality can be a real jerk sometimes. Perhaps if we constructively critique Lenire in its shortfalls, Neuromod will strive to make continuous improvements. Maybe it'll get to a point where the technology can treat "every" sub-type of tinnitus. But "I personally" don't think today is that day.
First time poster and only signed up to share this story as I think it could be of benefit to some.
I'm an Irishman living in London who has been following Neuromod for almost 2 years now since having found out a family friend was in the 'TENT-A1' study.
My Ma mentioned she knew someone who had been on a treatment programme following the onset of my tinnitus in late 2017.
I was initially very blasé about it as both my GP and ENT had told me that there was categorically no treatment available aside from CBT. Curiosity / desperation got the better of me and I eventually got in touch.
She told me was that there was a volume reduction that knocked her tinnitus down so that she 'no longer heard it above the TV'. She had tinnitus for around 5-6 years though never knew the reason why it came about.
She was very adamant that there was a good improvement from the treatment and even sent me a text earlier this year letting me know the device was released back in Ireland.
This account of her experience and some of the trial data advertised was enough for me to decide to make the plunge and put my name down on the waiting list.
Hope this is useful.
I don't usually post on forums though may consider leaving a review when I eventually get my appointment!
I'm an Irishman living in London who has been following Neuromod for almost 2 years now since having found out a family friend was in the 'TENT-A1' study.
My Ma mentioned she knew someone who had been on a treatment programme following the onset of my tinnitus in late 2017.
I was initially very blasé about it as both my GP and ENT had told me that there was categorically no treatment available aside from CBT. Curiosity / desperation got the better of me and I eventually got in touch.
She told me was that there was a volume reduction that knocked her tinnitus down so that she 'no longer heard it above the TV'. She had tinnitus for around 5-6 years though never knew the reason why it came about.
She was very adamant that there was a good improvement from the treatment and even sent me a text earlier this year letting me know the device was released back in Ireland.
This account of her experience and some of the trial data advertised was enough for me to decide to make the plunge and put my name down on the waiting list.
Hope this is useful.
I don't usually post on forums though may consider leaving a review when I eventually get my appointment!
- May 22, 2019
- 257
- Tinnitus Since
- 01/2019
- Cause of Tinnitus
- NIHL & TMJ
Hi Alice,
As described on the Falguière Center's website, it's electro acoustic:
"stimulations électro-acoustiques, par thérapie d'habituation".
I don't know if it has something to do with TMS. I had two electrodes placed above and under the left ear (the side where I have tinnitus), the electrical stimulation was provoking a slight trembling of the upper lips, which was the sign the the stimulation was correctly transmitted to the area to be treated.
The other obvious difference to me is the intensity of the program: it was one session of 30 minutes per week, six weeks in a row. Lenire protocol seems much more intensive.
When you say that Lenire has nothing to do with electro stimulation, do you mean that there is no electricity involved in bimodal neuromodulation?
Merci !!
(Good to have fellow French on the Lenire program
Bonne chance!)Hi Pochito,
So it's that old? They told me they had a 50% success rate in reduction of the tinnitus. I doubt it, even if it did work for me, but the effect lasted only for a couple of weeks...
Hello Eric,Hi Alice,
As described on the Falguière Center's website, it's electro acoustic:
"stimulations électro-acoustiques, par thérapie d'habituation".
I don't know if it has something to do with TMS. I had two electrodes placed above and under the left ear (the side where I have tinnitus), the electrical stimulation was provoking a slight trembling of the upper lips, which was the sign the the stimulation was correctly transmitted to the area to be treated.
The other obvious difference to me is the intensity of the program: it was one session of 30 minutes per week, six weeks in a row. Lenire protocol seems much more intensive.
When you say that Lenire has nothing to do with electro stimulation, do you mean that there is no electricity involved in bimodal neuromodulation?
Merci !!
(Good to have fellow French on the Lenire program
Ah ok, I don't know this method.
Concerning Lenire, yes there is electric stimulation via the tongue tip to the trigeminal nerve using a certain timing and this is combined with a sound therapy via headphones.
The purpose is not to drive habituation but to reduce the overactive zones in the brain and auditory system.
Yes I hope I will have you good news for you in a few months! Fingers crossed!
I'm just surprised that Tinnitus Talk members who are trying Lenire aren't reporting more successful results on their tinnitus
Being objective? Get real with yourself. You got your hopes up way too high from the beginning, then you turned into that little Charlie Brown meme yourself. That's all emotion: Let down. End of story, and your meme only reinforces this.
Since I really have so summarize my argument for you because obviously you didn't get it on its own, let me spell it out for you:
"The difference that made my tinnitus go from mild to severe was actually small in volume."
That small difference, something Lenire can offer, is all I hope for from the device. From the reports we've been getting, it's a reasonable expectation.
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