Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Efficacy Debate

[dboy]

Of course I made it up. Goodness you are gullible. No wonder you are so ready to take Wilden at his word!

I asked if you were aware of this and that unpublished data; I never said it existed.

stephen nagler

You wily old fox! I honestly did suspect as much! And I never took Wilden at his word, just a few intelligent and knowledgeable forum members whose opinions I respect.

I really do want to drag myself away from this thread though, so lets end on a note of humour.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I never took Wilden at his word, just a few intelligent and knowledgeable forum members whose opinions I respect.

I guess that lets me out .

I really do want to drag myself away from this thread though, so lets end on a note of humour.

Works for me.

stephen nagler

 

[RaZaH]

I might be pointing out the obvious but the bickering is doing nothing for this thread.
Just saying.

 

[bwspot]

This tread does not any good.
It definitely does not help those who like me might have some believe in laser. Yes maybe I am stupid and can easily be scammed but some daya posted here proves that there might be some benefits. Dr.Naglers idea of scaring people of any laser side effects is not funny for me.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

This tread does not any good.
It definitely does not help those who like me might have some believe in laser. Yes maybe I am stupid and can easily be scammed but some daya posted here proves that there might be some benefits. Dr.Naglers idea of scaring people of any laser side effects is not funny for me.

It's not funny for me either, but it is the reality.

Look, this thread titled "LLLT for Tinnitus - Efficacy Debate." Last time I looked, debates have two sides. Now if you want to read only about folks' personal experiences with LLLT, you are in luck - because because there is an entire separate thread titled "LLLT for Tinnitus - Laser List/Sharing."

But what you should not do is read through the posts in a debate thread and expect to feel warm and fuzzy about everything you see there.

stephen nagler

 

[bwspot]

It's not funny for me either, but it is the reality.

Look, this thread titled "LLLT for Tinnitus - Efficacy Debate." Last time I looked, debates have two sides. Now if you want to read only about folks' personal experiences with LLLT, you are in luck - because because there is an entire separate thread titled "LLLT for Tinnitus - Laser List/Sharing."

But what you should not do is read through the posts in a debate thread and expect to feel warm and fuzzy about everything you see there.

stephen nagler

Just out of curiosity.
@Dr. Nagler, do you have hearing loss or just tinnitus?
In case if you have hearing loss would not you do anything to get your hearing back?
Would not you try even something that is not scientifically proven?
Many times so called "remedies" cure people and we still don't know why.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Just out of curiosity.
@Dr. Nagler, do you have hearing loss or just tinnitus?

I developed tinnitus in 1994. Back then I had some high frequency hearing loss but did not require hearing aids. Since that time my hearing has gradually deteriorated, and I have been wearing increasingly powerful hearing aids since around 2001. I am currently on my third pair.

In case if you have hearing loss would not you do anything to get your hearing back?

I would prefer to have my hearing back, but I would not do anything to get it back. I am quite satisfied with my Phonak Audéo Q90s. Now if I were desperate to have absolutely Perfect hearing, then I might be willing to do anything. But over my 66+ years I have come to learn that Perfect is a myth. Indeed, in many ways Perfect is the enemy of Good. With my hearing aids I have Good. I have no need for Perfect.

Would not you try even something that is not scientifically proven?

In 1994 I tried any number of things for my tinnitus that were not scientifically proven. But that was out of misery and desperation. Thanks to TRT my tinnitus no longer causes me to be either miserable or desperate. And my hearing loss never did.

Many times so called "remedies" cure people and we still don't know why.

Right. Which is why I have said time and time again that healthcare decisions are personal matters. You have seen me criticize LLLT and the lack of reliable and verifiable studies in support of its use in tinnitus on a number of occasions, but you have never seen me criticize anybody for trying it.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[Dr. Nagler]

From another thread ...

Did anyone have any success with tinitool? would it be worth to start with it as a cheaper version of laser or its not powerful enough and is full waste of money?

I have reviewed the literature on TinniTool carefully - and from everything I can determine, TinniTool and the LLLT treatment you can get in Germany are equally effective in treating tinnitus.

stephen nagler

 

[bwspot]

From another thread ...


I have reviewed the literature on TinniTool carefully - and from everything I can determine, TinniTool and the LLLT treatment you can get in Germany are equally effective in treating tinnitus.

stephen nagler

It is much cheaper and assuming it works or has any effects it does much less damage on fianances.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

It is much cheaper and assuming it works or has any effects it does much less damage on fianances.

I didn't say it works. I said that from everything I can determine from the literature it was just as effective as LLLT in Germany.

The point is - if you read my response to an earlier question of yours in Post #337 - that I personally would likely have tried TinniTool, Dr. Wilden's therapy, and a whole lot of other worthless stuff as well back in 1994 ... but that would have been out of desperation and misery rather than out of logic and rational thinking. That's what scams depend on.

stephen nagler

 

[Silvine]

Here's some of the latest links (2014) I found on Google Scholar about LLLT and it efficacy as a treatment for hearing loss.

http://oto.sagepub.com/content/151/1_suppl/P212.2.short

http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1840622

http://journals.sbmu.ac.ir/jlms/article/view/4593/0

http://nnr.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/14/1545968314542616.abstract

 

[canyonero]

Newbie thought of chime in.
LLLT has been claimed to cure a very long list of conditions. I highly doubt it is a cure for all these conditions and the FDA has only approved it for carpel tunnel, even that has been disputed. If I had to guess it makes a minor difference in a few of them at best, and is a very cheap successful scam at best.

http://www.skepticnorth.com/2013/02/low-level-laser-placebo/
• Soft tissue and sports injuries
• Smoking cessation
• Repetitive stress problems
• Arthritic conditions
• Musculoskeletal problems
• Carpal Tunnel Syndrome
• Weight Loss
• Fibromyalgia
• Gout
• Tendinosis
• Temporo-mandibular Joint Dysfunction,
• Venous Stasis
• Atherosclerosis
• Diabetes
• Lymphedema
• MS
• Neuropathies
• Nerve regeneration
• Rheumatoid Arthritis
• Fractures
• Knee dysfunction
• Psoriasis
• Herpes
• Burns
• Acne
• Myofasciitis
• And the list goes on…

Also lasers over 5mw even in the infrared range, will cause permanent vision damage if you're not wearing eye protection!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Elswhere @bwspot posted:

In USA there is this guy that I might try. His website has tons of resources and he claims to understand laser.

..........

Excellent. Why go to Germany to get screwed, when you can get screwed right here in the good ol' USA!

stephen nagler

 

[bwspot]

Elswhere @bwspot posted:

In USA there is this guy that I might try. His website has tons of resources and he claims to understand laser.

..........

Excellent. Why go to Germany to get screwed, when you can get screwed right here in the good ol' USA!

stephen nagler

I must be entertaining you a lot. Stupid tinnitus sufferer looking for a non-existent solution.
I hope you are wrong and I will get something out of it if I try.
And yes, you right, if I get screwed at least USA government gets something out of it.
That's what I call support.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I must be entertaining you a lot.

Not really. I feel bad for you.

Stupid tinnitus sufferer looking for a non-existent solution.

No, not stupid at all. I rather see you as a frustrated tinnitus sufferer grasping at straws. I totally understand and sympathize.

I hope you are wrong and I will get something out of it if I try.

I hope so too.

That's what I call support.

Well, it's what I call support. You can call it what you like.

All the best -

stephen nagler

 

[bwspot]

Not really. I feel bad for you.

i understand that, i struggle and try to find ways to justify my decisions.
It is probably due to my dream and hope to recover what I lost.

I wonder, when you read the forum and see people posting positive results like improved audiograms how do you see it? Do you think it is placebo or something else? Why there would be an improvement in an audiogram if the hair cells are dead and cannot wake up? That's what I don't understand. Why if according to science hair cells cannot never awake, we still see proof that they can? Those who tried and were somehow successful (not necessary with T, but hearing improvement) are intelligent and I dont believe they would create fake audiograms for fun. I could post tons of fake audiograms, but why? To prove what? My idiocy?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

i struggle and try to find ways to justify my decisions.

You need only justify your decisions to yourself.

It is probably due to my dream and hope to recover what I lost.

You want to turn back the hands of time? Good luck with that. Your life tomorrow will never be like it was before tinnitus. It can be better than before tinnitus, to be sure. (Mine is!) But it will never be the same.

I wonder, when you read the forum and see people posting positive results like improved audiograms how do you see it?

I basically see it as data points. That's it. I do not draw conclusions based on anecdote. There are just too many variables. Too many unknowns.

Do you think it is placebo or something else?

I have no idea. What I do know is that there is no way that a red light can do successful CPR on a long dead hair cell. You are talking here about genuine resurrection. It happens in The Bible, but it just does not happen in real life.

Why there would be an improvement in an audiogram if the hair cells are dead and cannot wake up? That's what I don't understand.

There can be any number of reasons. Upper respiratory infection, spontaneous resolution in the "golden period" after a noise-induced threshold shift. Different equipment. Loads of possibilities. Might want to talk to an audiologist about it.

Why if according to science hair cells cannot never awake, we still see proof that they can?

My friend, you are not seeing proof. You are seeing anecdotal evidence. Proof involves reliable and verifiable controlled studies

Those who tried and were somehow successful (not necessary with T, but hearing improvement) are intelligent and I dont believe they would create fake audiograms for fun.

I don't either.

I could post tons of fake audiograms, but why? To prove what? My idiocy?

I never called you an idiot. I do not believe you are an idiot. I believe you are trying to sort things out for yourself, which as I see it is a good thing.

stephen nagler

 

[amandine]

@Dr. Nagler

Please may I ask you what was the cause of your T?
many thanks

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Please may I ask you what was the cause of your T?
many thanks

Most likely idiosyncratic reaction to medication superimposed on chronic noise exposure.

stephen nagler

 

[bwspot]

You want to turn back the hands of time? Good luck with that. Your life tomorrow will never be like it was before tinnitus. It can be better than before tinnitus, to be sure. (Mine is!) But it will never be the same.

This is great. Overcoming T and having a better life is a huge success.

 

[marqualler]

It can be better than before tinnitus, to be sure. (Mine is!)

If I may interject--this is a statement that you made that has stuck with me for a long time, @Dr. Nagler. And it is one that I did not believe could ever be possible. But the lessons about life I have learned from my tinnitus in this short period of time combined with pushing myself out of my self-imposed auditory cocoon have made me truly start believing this. And when I think back to myself a year ago--tinnitus free but unhappy with my job and tired with a newborn baby--my life truly is better today--even with tinnitus.

So it is true! And thank you for your persistent messaging on this topic, Dr. Nagler.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Hi @marqualler -

Your post is music to my ears. You have just made my day!!!!!

stephen nagler

 

[attheedgeofscience]

FDA has only approved it for carpel tunnel, even that has been disputed. If I had to guess it makes a minor difference in a few of them at best, and is a very cheap successful scam at best.

I see. And this...?

http://www.medicaldaily.com/fda-app...rapy-device-stimulates-hair-growth-men-304890

Also lasers over 5mw even in the infrared range, will cause permanent vision damage if you're not wearing eye protection!

It all depends on the spread of the laser beam (i.e. is it "open/spread" or "focused" e.g. a laser pointer). Generally, it is not recommended to stare into the beam of a laser in any event (either below or above 5 mW).

I am not sure what you mean by "even in the infrared range". Infrared lasers would typically be more dangerous since that wavelength of the beam is not seen by the human eye (and hence there is no eye reflex which closes the eyelids).

 

[amandine]

Most likely idiosyncratic reaction to medication superimposed on chronic noise exposure.

Thanks for replying and so promptly.
So you were exposed to loud noise? Would that have been loud music at clubs or rock band by any chance (interested to know from which source of noise) you were exposed to and then you were given medication for the T to which you had your own individual reaction? Is that what you were saying?
Hope you dont mind me asking but curious as to what kind of noise exposure it was and whether it was long term noise exposure or one off incident.
Thanks ever so and really hope it is okay to ask you and I am not being too personal.
thank you again

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Thanks for replying and so promptly.
So you were exposed to loud noise?

Yes. Lots of loud noise over lots of years ...

Many many pounds, pizzas, and beers ago I used to run marathons. And to kill the boredom of those long workouts in training I would listen to music from a Sony Walkman (remember those?) strapped around my waist and played loud through a headset. Yea, I know. Stoooopid. But I didn't know any better.

Now here's a question for you, @amandine: What difference does it make? My tinnitus wasn't caused by something that can be fixed - so that puts me in the exact same boat as almost everybody else on this board. In other words, once your ENT determines that your tinnitus is not caused by something that can be fixed, what difference does it make what caused it?

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[amandine]

Yes. Lots of loud noise over lots of years ...

Many many pounds, pizzas, and beers ago I used to run marathons. And to kill the boredom of those long workouts in training I would listen to music from a Sony Walkman (remember those?) strapped around my waist and played loud through a headset. Yea, I know. Stoooopid. But I didn't know any better.

Now here's a question for you, @amandine: What difference does it make? My tinnitus wasn't caused by something that can be fixed - so that puts me in the exact same boat as almost everybody else on this board. In other words, once your ENT determines that your tinnitus is not caused by something that can be fixed, what difference does it make what caused it?

Thanks as ever for your prompt reply. No in that sense it doesn't matter but I was just curious. I was under the misunderstanding that you were an ENT doctor but have since read that you were a general surgeon specialising in bowel and colon surgery. Would that be correct Dr. Nagler? Of course I understand that following your T event you were unable to continue in surgery but, after undergoing TRT, you then were trained in this therapy and started a new course and career in life which leads you to here on TT.
So the only reason I was asking out of curiosity was because I thought you were in ENT and therefore would have been aware of noise danger but of course I realise now that this was not your speciality at that time of your life.
However, as a surgeon at the time with all the education and medical knowledge that goes with being a surgeon, I thought that you would have had enough knowledge of the human body to know the dangers of noise and of medications taken. Guess I am wrong though as obviously this was not the case. Just dont understand how a surgeon can be as stupid (your words Dr. Nagler not mine I hasten to add so please no offence intended whatsoever!) as a lay person who has minimal medical knowledge or no med knowledge whatsoever.
Anyhow just wanted to explain why I asked you this question.......but yes in the end you are correct, the reason why the T occurred is not important.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Not bad thinking but I got another idea. Go to Oslo and see dr Anne and do 5 days session. During that time enjoy Oslo and take pictures which I do as my hobby. Check if there are any results and if none I still got pictures and travel experience.

I have another idea, too. Go to Oslo for five days, enjoy all that the city has to offer, take loads of pictures, but don't bother with LLLT at all. You'll have a terrific vacation, the outcome will be the same, and you'll have saved yourself enough money to spend a few days in Bergen as well. I'm just sayin' ...

stephen nagler

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Thanks as ever for your prompt reply. No in that sense it doesn't matter but I was just curious. I was under the misunderstanding that you were an ENT doctor but have since read that you were a general surgeon specialising in bowel and colon surgery. Would that be correct Dr. Nagler?

Actually most of my work was in breast cancer and colon cancer, but you get the idea.

Of course I understand that following your T event you were unable to continue in surgery but, after undergoing TRT, you then were trained in this therapy and started a new course and career in life which leads you to here on TT.

Two things lead me here to Tinnitus Talk. The first is my passion for stating over and over again to as many people I can that just because you have tinnitus, that does not mean you must suffer from tinnitus. And the second is my hope and prayer that amidst all of the bad information and negative counseling on the Internet, every once in a while somebody might realize that maybe - just maybe - I know what I am talking about, do what I suggest, and as a result begin to take purposeful steps along the path towards meaningful lasting relief.

So the only reason I was asking out of curiosity was because I thought you were in ENT and therefore would have been aware of noise danger but of course I realise now that this was not your speciality at that time of your life.

Right, but that sort of curiosity causes you to ponder tinnitus in general and your tinnitus in particular. Which is exactly what you should not be doing. You shouldn't be spending any more time than is absolutely necessary thinking about tinnitus. You spend enough time necessarily thinking about it as is, right? So with all due respect, instead of wondering about me and my career, please consider actually listening to what I have been saying and doing what I have been telling you to do.

stephen nagler

 

[dboy]

Isn't this thread supposed to be for 'user experiences and support'? Haven't we got a whole other thread now where Dr Nagler can do his 'LLLT is a scam' thing as much as he wants?

The point of splitting the threads was to create an area where people could feel confident of not having to deal with the constant opposition - but could still have access to that opposition elsewhere to get the other side of the issue.

Just sayin'...

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Isn't this thread supposed to be for 'user experiences and support'?

I'm giving support. You just don't like the support I'm giving.

Say you decided to drive after drinking two six-packs, and I told you not to. You might not like that suggestion, but it would definitely be support. Same thing.

I think @bwspot ought to take a vacation in Oslo and Bergen. It will be wonderful for him. It may even help settle down his tinnitus - or at the very least take his mind off it. My wife and I spent two weeks in Norway this past summer and had a fantastic time. And looking back upon it, I didn't think about my tinnitus once the entire time we were there!

stephen nagler