Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Manuel Tissm]

We are still looking into this and again Fernando is the man u wonna talk to.

Thanks! I talk to Fernando. He's Portuguese like me.
It's easy use the laser? We can point to the ear 40 minutes without problem?
You or Fernando could make a video how to properly use the laser

All together we will win and cure tinnitus

Obrigado

 

[Nick J.]

Thanks! I talk to Fernando. He's Portuguese like me.
It's easy use the laser? We can point to the ear 40 minutes without problem?
You or Fernando could make a video how to properly use the laser

All together we will win and cure tinnitus

Obrigado

All your questions are answered in this thread!
U just need to start reading 5-6 pages back.
And if u still dont know, then Fernando can easily explain it to u when u talk with him.

Obrigado

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Dont worry, i will
Not changing my own routine just yet.
But im just trying to figure out more about this puzzel.

I'v been thinking about this high dose u are getting with so many different wavelength.
Maybe its possible to kind of bypass this slow regeneration in the choclea from the low tones up to the high.
Maybe its actaully possible to treat in the hole area of frequenzies at the same time and in high dose, with no negative results? Might even get better (faster) results!
Cuz who can tell if Wilden has solved this puzzel down to its core??
Im not 100% sure that he have, after hearing this other approach on treatment.

I might be rampling here. But i just find the possibility really interesting.
Im definitly gonna have alot of questions myself when i see her.

She uses high doses, but still using 650 nm as well.
So I really don´t know if it´s not a a waist of time or not. The truth is that we have stories told in the internet and the two started the same way. Nothing tells me that you should not start with higher wavelnghts. The lady from hawai was there first time, and got same as me.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

hi @FERNANDO GIL

it seems interesting

can you ask her if she ll provide a discount if we come from the forum (worth trying)?

how much are you expecting to spend for the treatment +staying costs and all?

Sorry to say, but I will not ask.....is something someone should ask himself.

Total will be around:
720 € for the treatment
375 € for staying at the guest house
50 € for train from airport to here and back
30 € for food a day,

Plus airplane ticket.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

rom my research on cold lasers (I have posted an unbiased document in my introduction folder), laser efficacy is governed by such things as power output (mW), wavelength (nm), and contact with the body tissue. So when a laser is not having contact with the skin, this would make the therapy less effective (= less penetration) - something which is easily observed from my photographs in my introduction. So... as a "scientific question", why is she having the laser therapy done at 50 cm from the ear in this particular case...?

Hi
First of all my mistake, is 630 not 730.
She said that this laser is mostly used in people with back pain, and when the pain is stronger she starts using a low nm so the treatment start slow and then she moves to higher power.
The reason is so far ( more than 50 cm) is to cover more area on patient back.

She used on me, more to relax than the treatment it self. On the end is part of the treatment as well if need it.

Cheers

 

[Nick J.]

She uses high doses, but still using 650 nm as well.
So I really don´t know if it´s not a a waist of time or not. The truth is that we have stories told in the internet and the two started the same way. Nothing tells me that you should not start with higher wavelnghts. The lady from hawai was there first time, and got same as me.

So u agree with me, that it might be possible to treat the hole frequenzy range, instead of the old wisdom from Wilden, where low tones get regenerated first and then later on, the high frequenzies will start to heal??
This idea is stated by Wilden himself and i know u know this, since we both have been passing on this idea to others in here.
Im not stateting that u should not use high wavelength in the beginning!
What im trying to figure out, is if Wildens idea of the slow progess is not 100% true!
That maybe u can get faster results by doing what Anna is doing, instead of wildens 1 hour a day, 30min. Each ear and maximum 200mv from 25-30cm away and only 2 wavelength.
So instead of taking 3 years to heal from 250kHz - 16000kHz, u can now "maybe" do this in, lets say 6 month, because u treat the hole spectrum and with super high dose!

Just so everybody knows...im not trying to play professor in here.
Im just trying to figure out the huge difference in the treatingprocedure from Wilden to Anna and try to make some sence of it.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

So u agree with me, that it might be possible to treat the hole frequenzy range, instead of the old wisdom from Wilden, where low tones get regenerated first and then later on, the high frequenzies will start to heal??
This idea is stated by Wilden himself and i know u know this, since we both have been passing on this idea to others in here.
Im not stateting that u should not use high wavelength in the beginning!
What im trying to figure out, is if Wildens idea of the slow progess is not 100% true!
That maybe u can get faster results by doing what Anna is doing, instead of wildens 1 hour a day, 30min. Each ear and maximum 200mv from 25-30cm away and only 2 wavelength.
So instead of taking 3 years to heal fra 250kHz - 16000kHz, u can now "maybe" do this in, lets say 6 month, because u treat the hole spectrum and with super high dose!

Just so everybody knows...im not trying to play professor in here.
Im just trying to figure out the huge difference in the treatingprocedure from Wilden to Anna and try to
make some sence of it.

Put it this way.
You, me and ATEOS went to Dr Wilden...3 diferent audigrams. Same tretament, no matter what.

And as Anne say. It goes from person to person,,,,, this is not an exact science for how much we want to.
I recovered 20 db on 8Mhz in 5 months just naturaly. So in the end is going with what you fell.

Yesterday was great, today there is a really high pitch all day, low in volume but a real high frequencie.
Yesterday, if you say make a rest, I would say no, but today after 5 treatments I think I need a few days rest on my head. Maybe tomorow I wake felling great, and there we go......more 5 please.

So follow your instinct, cause in the end is such personal syntome.

But one thing I think is correct.
- Low doses during all tretament
-High doses from time to time
- Stops as well ( here is the part that is more personal and that you should follow your instinct) just a few days or longer, cause at some time, as I said before, you need to realize how you are overal. And only stoping the treatment you see how it´s going.

Cheers

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

So u agree with me, that it might be possible to treat the hole frequenzy range, instead of the old wisdom from Wilden, where low tones get regenerated first and then later on, the high frequenzies will start to heal??

No matter what I think, lows will recover faster than the high frequencies.

 

[Nick J.]

No matter what I think, lows will recover faster than the high frequencies.

Yes i think so to!
But thats not my point!
My point is, that could it be possible to start a healing right away in the higest tones and therefor not having to wait for the low tones to heal up first and then move further up??
Cuz most ppl i believe have T cuz of huge drop in the higest tones and this means is take a hell of a time of steady contineous treatment before the high frequencies gets healed and u get a drop in the T.

Cuz if that is possible, then ppl will feel faster improvement from LLLT( drop in T), and not stop the treatment to early, like many seems to do.
I dont care if my low tones get healed in a weak or 3 month.
But i DO care if my high tones got healed in 6 month instead of 3 years, so i could possible have a reduced T ALOT faster!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi
Actualy did discuss that with Anne.
The point is that some wavelenghts do really help to heal the high frequenteis faster.
But as she said, they don´t do those anymore, that is the thing she mostly complain a lot, the factories
are becoming standarized, 650 and 808 is what they do most. 904 as well. but she does have problems to get
820 and 830. For exanple.
She said the diference between 808 and 808.2 is a big diference, right there.

 

[Nick J.]

Hi
Actualy did discuss that with Anne.
The point is that some wavelenghts do really help to heal the high frequenteis faster.
But as she said, they don´t do those anymore, that is the thing she mostly complain a lot, the factories
are becoming standarized, 650 and 808 is what they do most. 904 as well. but she does have problems to get
820 and 830. For exanple.
She said the diference between 808 and 808.2 is a big diference, right there.

Wauw thats a shame!
But yes...im not surpriced that even a small change in nm could have a pretty big difference!
You would still think that some guy has a shop or a hobbystore, where he might have a box full of those special laserheads, so u could build one yourself maybe, like dboy in here...think it was him!

 

[SoulStation]

How does LLLT actually work on a cellular level?

 

[exodus]

Wauw thats a shame!
But yes...im not surpriced that even a small change in nm could have a pretty big difference!
You would still think that some guy has a shop or a hobbystore, where he might have a box full of those special laserheads, so u could build one yourself maybe, like dboy in here...think it was him!

that s a good idea,
for instance the laser sold bu wilder is commercially available from 20/30 usd comparing to the 2700 euros he is asking for.

there is way to build the needed laser with commercial laser available in the market and at more reasonnable price

 

[Nick J.]

for instance the laser sold bu wilder is commercially available from 20/30 usd comparing to the 2700 euros he is asking for.

True...but u are not seeing things from his perspective. (The hole picture)
If he wants to help others by selling a laser and also make a living out of it, he cannot sell u a laser that looks like something u just put together in 30min. at your moms basement useing a chainsaw and a slegdehammer.
On top of that, u need to put up capital that u might lose, since u need to come up with a design for mass production and u need to make a company do this for u and the also charge u money.
Then the design needs to be practical for even the biggest idiot to use, since there is alot of them out there.
You also have to develop the software in the device, so u can adjust the different settings in the laserdevice.
Then u need to get it approved by FDA and probably other organisations here in Europe...this might not be free of charge.
Then there are all the other things and steps that i have no clue of, but that u still need to do before u have a finnished product.
So if u think that leads to a product of same design and quality as Wildens and for only a few hundred €, then i think u might be slightly naive! (No offence)
But still we can agree on the fact that Wildens devise is somewhat pricy and probably "a bit" more then it needed to be, ill give u that.

 

[Nick J.]

How does LLLT actually work on a cellular level?

Search for Dr. Wilden and tinnitus and u will find this info in great details on his HP!

 

[Nick J.]

No problem. As I say, it does not really matter whether is it 10, 20, or 50 cm from the "target". As soon as there is loss of connectivity between the laser and the body tissue, the penetration depth decreases quite a bit. I will post photos to illustrate this...

I think we on the same page!
But there is one thing i need to point out and where i think we lost each other.
If the beam is focused and u point it on a ear 50cm away and it covers an area of 5x5 cm and u then move it out to 100cm and it still covers 5x5 cm, then YES the penetration will be almost the same.
VERY little energy will be lost if any.

But if the beam is unfocused like the laserpen u have and u start moving it further and further away from the subject, then the penetration will have to drop, since the beam will be spread out on to big an area in the end...correct?

 

[OddV]

Is anyone aware of a Dr. Wilden equivalent in the US?

 

[Nick J.]

Is anyone aware of a Dr. Wilden equivalent in the US?

I know of a clinic in Daytona Beach, FL.
Dont know any more!
But should be possible to find it by google.

Im sure there has to be more!

There is this girl from US called Sam and which has a blog about lasertreatment.
Think i remember her mentioning other places in the states.
Read this thread a few pages back!
Think Fernando or ATEOS is linking to her HP!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

If the beam is focused and u point it on a ear 50cm away and it covers an area of 5x5 cm and u then move it out to 100cm and it still covers 5x5 cm, then YES the penetration will be almost the same.

Agreed.

But if the beam is unfocused like the laserpen u have and u start moving it further and further away from the subject, then the penetration will have to drop, since the beam will be spread out on to big an area in the end...correct?

Agreed.

As can be seen below, the lasers Dr. Wilden uses are fairly focused. It can also be seen that light is entering via the ear canal - and from behind the ear. These are the two specific treatment areas that must be targeted in order to reach the cochlea. Similar photos - of myself - can be found in my "stem cell" journal.

Even though I did not benefit from my initial two month treatment schedule, I consider cold lasers to be a really worthwhile medical application for many areas of medicine:

1) It promotes tissue regeneration (by giving cells a chance to absorb energy via non-biochemical routes and by activating tissue specific stem cells)
2) Unlike drugs, there are essentially no side effects with LLLT (certainly no long term side-effects).

Cold lasers are excellent for treating eg. skin disorders that would otherwise require topical steriod management.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

that s a good idea,
for instance the laser sold bu wilder is commercially available from 20/30 usd comparing to the 2700 euros he is asking for.

there is way to build the needed laser with commercial laser available in the market and at more reasonnable price

Anne told that the Diods are exepensive, that is the most important part of the laser.
She did ask a factory to make her a special laser, so she could sell it. Spend a few thausand euros to make it. And she went to see how much was the cost to get CE aproved it was just incredeble, maybe i´m wrong but over 100 000 € for CE aproval. So there you see that you just not paying the machine it self, you paying mostly for the licence.

You just don´t build a lazer and there you go, you must pay for Insurence for sure and many more things.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Is anyone aware of a Dr. Wilden equivalent in the US?

try this

 

[RaZaH]

I feel the need to explain that the human ear can hear from approximately 20 hz to 20khz.

"I recovered 20 db on 8Mhz in 5 months" - that would probably be 8 khz or 8000 hz.
"3 years to heal from 250kHz - 16000kHz" - that would be 250 hz to 16000 hz or 16khz.

Sorry if i am annoying

 

[Nick J.]

I feel the need to explain that the human ear can hear from approximately 20 hz to 20khz.

"I recovered 20 db on 8Mhz in 5 months" - that would probably be 8 khz or 8000 hz.
"3 years to heal from 250kHz - 16000kHz" - that would be 250 hz to 16000 hz or 16khz.

Sorry if i am annoying

Your not annoying...thx for the correction! Much appriciatet!
Im making those errors constantly, because im writing to fast and typing to much sometimes to go though it all and correct it.
But im doing my best and ppl like u who can see the errors, already knows what im talking about and those who dont notices, probably are not missing anything by my mistakes anyway...
Lets hope nobody is making a science report from whats being written in here right??
I would like u to go throw all my grammar as well, since i really suck at writing in english and then list it below like every 5 post of mine or so!
Then i might become better (hopefully right?) and thereby u will also contribute with something in this thread...win/win i guees!

So stick around buddy!
There is gonna be many more errors like these for sure...
Have a great day.
Your awsome!!!

 

[RaZaH]

I am a sound engineer and I see this written wrong all over the place , so I correct it.
Its your choice to get passive aggressive and hostile , enjoy it mate.

P.s , Its " you're awesome"

 

[Nick J.]

I am a sound engineer and I see this written wrong all over the place , so I correct it.
Its your choice to get passive aggressive and hostile , enjoy it mate.

P.s , Its " you're awesome"

Now THAT's something to be proud of right there and without those corrections, all posts would be worthless...so thx again!

Thieves think everybody steals.

 

[RaZaH]

Are you feeling ok ? Why are you being so hostile ?
Usually this is a very nice forum , you are obviously new here.

 

[yonkapin]

try this

I get crazy scam vibes from that video.

The thing looks exactly like the Zerona device developed by the same doctor: http://www.myzerona.com/ which has been designed for weight loss. I'd steer clear of that particular clinic and doctor to be honest.

I've read bits and pieces of this thread. I know that there are a few of you who have had significant results in terms of having regained hearing in specific frequency ranges, but I was wondering how many of you were having independent full frequency spectrum hearing tests (up to 20khz) before and after having LLLT treatments done? I personally would not trust audiograms provided by the same people doing the LLLT treatments.

Apologies in advance if you guys have already covered this, but I am genuinely interested if any of you guys who experienced benefits had before/after copies of audiograms conducted at independent clinics who were not administering the LLLT treatment?

 

[Nick J.]

I get crazy scam vibes from that video.

The thing looks exactly like the Zerona device developed by the same doctor: http://www.myzerona.com/ which has been designed for weight loss. I'd steer clear of that particular clinic and doctor to be honest.

I've read bits and pieces of this thread. I know that there are a few of you who have had significant results in terms of having regained hearing in specific frequency ranges, but I was wondering how many of you were having independent full frequency spectrum hearing tests (up to 20khz) before and after having LLLT treatments done? I personally would not trust audiograms provided by the same people doing the LLLT treatments.

Apologies in advance if you guys have already covered this, but I am genuinely interested if any of you guys who experienced benefits had before/after copies of audiograms conducted at independent clinics who were not administering the LLLT treatment?

I have no idea about that clinic being valid or not.
But if the are useing the wavelength told in the video and with some serious power behind it (200Mv+) then i see no reason as to why it shouldent have some kind of similar effect like i experienced in Ibiza.
But the slow turning light is not optimal imo.
Wildens laser is doing the same, but at much faster pace, so it almost looks like one solid beam covering the hole area of the ear.
I think thats gonna be more effective, since its almost like hitting this big area with a steady beam.

I couldent do 16KHz here in Malta before first treatment, so 8 had to do it and im getting a new test by same clinic in 9 days, just to have a before and after from same clinic, since ill be leaving Malta soon after.
Wilden also did before and after on me and i posted those, just because i dident have anything else here and now.
But im soon returning back to Denmark and will start looking for a clinic that can test higher and then keep getting a test there every 3 month or so the next 2-3 years.
So in a year or so from now, i think its still possible to use the first audiograms to look for a "red line" by comparing with the new tests with wider scale.
Im obv. gonna post everything in here like iv done so fare.

So even if i feel i already got pretty good improvement, there is still a sceptic inside of me who wants the same credible proof like u are talking about, before i feel for a fact i can say this stuff REALLY works 100%.
But even if im able to come forward with this kind of "evidence", there is still gonna be ppl not believing what im showing and then the next fase is gonna be all the blaming about me selling lasers i guees or its just natural healing.
Just wait and see.


Ps. A damn shame Mark hunt dident win ay!?

 

[yonkapin]

I have no idea about that clinic being valid or not.
But if the are useing the wavelength told in the video and with some serious power behind it (200Mv+) then i see no reason as to why it shouldent have some kind of similar effect like i experienced in Ibiza.
But the slow turning light is not optimal imo.
Wildens laser is doing the same, but at much faster pace, so it almost looks like one solid beam covering the hole area of the ear.
I think thats gonna be more effective, since its almost like hitting this big area with a steady beam.

I couldent do 16KHz here in Malta before first treatment, so 8 had to do it and im getting a new test by same clinic in 9 days, just to have a before and after from same clinic, since ill be leaving Malta soon after.
Wilden also did before and after on me and i posted those, just because i dident have anything else here and now.
But im soon returning back to Denmark and will start looking for a clinic that can test higher and then keep getting a test there every 3 month or so the next 2-3 years.
So in a year or so from now, i think its still possible to use the first audiograms to look for a "red line" by comparing with the new tests with wider scale.
Im obv. gonna post everything in here like iv done so fare.

So even if i feel i already got pretty good improvement, there is still a sceptic inside of me who wants the same credible proof like u are talking about, before i feel for a fact i can say this stuff REALLY works 100%.
But even if im able to come forward with this kind of "evidence", there is still gonna be ppl not believing what im showing and then the next fase is gonna be all the blaming about me selling lasers i guees or its just natural healing.
Just wait and see.


Ps. A damn shame Mark hunt dident win ay!?

Thanks for the extra little bits of info. Hope things improve for you!

Oh man - don't remind me, haha. I was beyond devastated yesterday. He was looking so good before that knee to the head too, damn it!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I get crazy scam vibes from that video.

The thing looks exactly like the Zerona device developed by the same doctor: http://www.myzerona.com/ which has been designed for weight loss. I'd steer clear of that particular clinic and doctor to be honest.

I've read bits and pieces of this thread. I know that there are a few of you who have had significant results in terms of having regained hearing in specific frequency ranges, but I was wondering how many of you were having independent full frequency spectrum hearing tests (up to 20khz) before and after having LLLT treatments done? I personally would not trust audiograms provided by the same people doing the LLLT treatments.

Apologies in advance if you guys have already covered this, but I am genuinely interested if any of you guys who experienced benefits had before/after copies of audiograms conducted at independent clinics who were not administering the LLLT treatment?

Reading there youtube page look d to me that is a little scam as well.

Dr Wilden does make audigrams, but Anne Harilla does not. All my audigrams are made in Portugal, and at the same places. Two actually, i have others but made in a different audiologist. I said before and saying again , you should only compare audigrams made by the same place/machine and better if by same person. All my audigrams are in previous pages. of this threath. page 12.

There you can see my gaining in the low frequencies. I´m now working on the high frequencies.

Sheers