Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Nick J.]

Also, it looks like the protocol would depend on the person's audiograms/symptoms. For instance, I mainly have problems with my right ear. Do you know how I could figure out what the protocol should be for me if I got the lucky laser? Or, would I just get one and do a longer treatment on my "bad ear," or just treat my bad ear (I think I read somewhere that it is necessary to treat both ears, even though one would be treated longer than the other in this case)?

Most likely both your ears are bad like most people living in every day noice, your right ear is just worse!
So treat both ears always.
But if u wonna safe time, then just do half treatment in the good ear.
Do like 30min. a day in the bad ear with a probe inside the ear and one behind and 15min. on the other and do it 5 days a week and take two days off and repeat.
After 2-3month u might move up to 45min. a day in the bad.
After 5-6month do 1hour a day.
If possible, do some clinic in between with different wavelength to stimulate other parts of the ear and boost new healing.

 

[Markku]

Do I push the quote at the bottom of your posting first, and then copy whatever I want to paste?

You can either click the Quote button below a post to quote the whole message or, to quote a selection of a post, highlight a part of the message and click the Quote button that pops up, see below:

 

[felinefine]

@Nick J. ok I am a bit nervous ordering the laser through the link provided, I think @FERNANDO GIL googled it and showed me where I could purchase it (thank you Fernando!). Do you know for sure if Anne orders her lasers from that page? I would love to order directly from her, but I don't know if that is possible? Does she get commission from the laser? Obviously I would like to support her since I know she is the one treating/helping people.

 

[felinefine]

You can either click the Quote button below a post to quote the whole message or, to quote a selection of a post, highlight a part of the message and click the Quote button that pops up, see below:

Brilliant thank you!!

 

[Nick J.]

hahah ok I am laughing, @Nick J., why would you think I am aaron beck? I do not even know who that is. Yes I just started the board like anyone else. Is it odd because I write so much you mean? I am trying to get this thing figured out so I can start on my road to recovery like you and @FERNANDO GIL , yeah!

I just had a funny feeling
Just got suspicious, since u came out of nowhere and started this huge topic of questions and what not, right out of the gate.
But nvm.
Just asking.

Ok I am trying to respond again with your directions on how to quote a person. Do I push the quote at the bottom of your posting first, and then copy whatever I want to paste? I tried just copying part of your page, and then posting it in a new comment, but that didn't work

No!!!
U push in the text i wrote and then hold down like when copy/paste!
Then two balls apear and u can move them to cover more text and when done, u press the quote that apeared at the same time!

 

[felinefine]

Most likely both your ears are bad like most people living in every day noice, your right ear is just worse!
So treat both ears always.
But if u wonna safe time, then just do half treatment in the good ear.
Do like 30min. a day in the bad ear with a probe inside the ear and one behind and 15min. on the other and do it 5 days a week and take two days off and repeat.
After 2-3month u might move up to 45min. a day in the bad.
After 5-6month do 1hour a day.
If possible, do some clinic in between with different wavelength to stimulate other parts of the ear and boost new healing.

Ok I am also going to add this info to the laser page, thanks!!
So protocol as following (can you please correct @Nick J. )?
on the first 2-3 months
30 minutes a day in bad ear (with one probe inside the ear and one behind)
15 minutes a day on the good ear (with one probe inside the ear and one behind)
Do this 5 days a week, take 2 days off, and continue for the 2-3 months

3-5 months
45 minutes a day in the bad ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
30 minutes?? a day in the good ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
Do this 5 days a week, take 2 days off, and continue for the 3-5 months

at 5 months, or 6 months onward
1 hour a day in the bad ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
45 minutes?? a day on the good ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
do this indefinitely?

**go to the clinic to do some different wavelengths between, if possible, to stimulate more healing

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

would I be ok with purchasing it directly from the link you provided?

Think so, don´t see any reason for not. I did buy it direct, cause I go to China very often.

n your opinion, do you believe the lucky laser to be the best for home treatments then?

Hope so, it´s more powerfull, and have two diferent wavelenghts, if you use same laser for long time, some people say your ear get´s used to it, and the treatment get´s less efective. So after using same laser for 6 months I decide to change.

Also, it looks like the protocol would depend on the person's audiograms/symptoms.

The protocol is pretty mauch the same for everyone, just the degree of the damge in your ear will tell if you need more or less time for the treatement. But count with a 2/3 years as you said in previous post.

I think I read somewhere that it is necessary to treat both ears, even though one would be treated longer than the other in this case)?

You should do treatment in the two ears, fixing the one that is damage and make the other one stronger, to avoid same problem in the future.

o you know how I could figure out what the protocol should be for me if I got the lucky laser?

Start slowly, and then rise the power with time. Maybe just use 650nm/80Mw and 808 nmn/450 Mw, then with time you should do 650nm/120 Mw and 808nm/500 Mw. DO NOT USE OVER 808 nm/500Mw unless you advised by a doctor, More than that can be dangereous. If used to much time. Do 30 minutos in the beginning as well. And with time you start to have your how knowledge of what to do. Go with the felling. 5 days laser 2 days off.

 

[Nick J.]

@Nick J. ok I am a bit nervous ordering the laser through the link provided, I think @FERNANDO GIL googled it and showed me where I could purchase it (thank you Fernando!). Do you know for sure if Anne orders her lasers from that page? I would love to order directly from her, but I don't know if that is possible? Does she get commission from the laser? Obviously I would like to support her since I know she is the one treating/helping people.

Anne is friends with Lucy!
So im pretty sure she dont order from that page, but grabs the old bone and call her and chit chat about the weather in china in the same time she orders!

No Anne is not earning money on this! That is not who she is!
She is treating to help people, not to get rich!
Thats why she is only taking 120€ for 5hours of laser of your choice and not 200€ for 1 hour.

In dont like order from that site either.
So i cant blame u.
But i guees u kind of have to atm.
I cant really tell random people to order throug Anne and also she wouldent do it and i cant blame her.
Why would she.

 

[dboy]

@Nick J. & @FERNANDO GIL interesting what you say. Just to clarify I'll go into more depth. I have noticed zero improvement in my tinnitus. I have had some quite bad days though, which I hope is a good sign. I was interested in that thing about your dad becoming sensitive to the sound of his washing machine. I have noticed some days that my hearing finds some sounds uncomfortable - particularly my little boy's voice when he gets excited. It produces a sensation in my ears that is hard to describe.... like a fluttering discomfort. A couple of times I felt like maybe I was hearing more bass when I listened to music, but could not say for sure - that might easily be wishful thinking.

But definitely no improvement in my tinnitus yet. I'm not discouraged at all. I expected to do this for months before getting any benefit.

 

[Nick J.]

Ok I am also going to add this info to the laser page, thanks!!
So protocol as following (can you please correct @Nick J. )?
on the first 2-3 months
30 minutes a day in bad ear (with one probe inside the ear and one behind)
15 minutes a day on the good ear (with one probe inside the ear and one behind)
Do this 5 days a week, take 2 days off, and continue for the 2-3 months

3-5 months
45 minutes a day in the bad ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
30 minutes?? a day in the good ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
Do this 5 days a week, take 2 days off, and continue for the 3-5 months

at 5 months, or 6 months onward
1 hour a day in the bad ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
45 minutes?? a day on the good ear (with one probe inside the ear, and one behind)
do this indefinitely?

**go to the clinic to do some different wavelengths between, if possible, to stimulate more healing

Correct!
But this was in your case!
Although most people should follow these guidelines with most lasers i think.
And like Fernando says...when u have been doing it for a few month, u kind of get to know what works for u and u can start to do things different if u feel like it!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

A couple of times I felt like maybe I was hearing more bass when I listened to music, but could not say for sure - that might easily be wishful thinking.

Our T is the sound of where the year is more damaged. If your T is onthe high frequencies, it will take a long time till you notice any change on your T.

I can only say that you should have an audiogram all the way to the 16Mhz, is the only way., to find out where is your real problem. But since you are starting to ear some noises that you did not notice in the past, It means something is hapenning.

Remember high frequencies take longer to eal. Much longer unfornatly. Try to remember witch volume on the TV you used to have, And witch one is now. That is how I notice my ear was better.


Anither option is to rise the time of the treatment.

Sheers

 

[Nick J.]

@Nick J. & @FERNANDO GIL interesting what you say. Just to clarify I'll go into more depth. I have noticed zero improvement in my tinnitus. I have had some quite bad days though, which I hope is a good sign. I was interested in that thing about your dad becoming sensitive to the sound of his washing machine. I have noticed some days that my hearing finds some sounds uncomfortable - particularly my little boy's voice when he gets excited. It produces a sensation in my ears that is hard to describe.... like a fluttering discomfort. A couple of times I felt like maybe I was hearing more bass when I listened to music, but could not say for sure - that might easily be wishful thinking.

But definitely no improvement in my tinnitus yet. I'm not discouraged at all. I expected to do this for months before getting any benefit.

Okay...now thats a hole other story then!
Cuz no improvement in T and stronger T sometimes is 2 different things.
But the second thing will in time lead to the first thing, by lowering the T. But this is the last thing that will happen. First comes better hearing and less fullness in the ear ect.
But first u need to noticed that u respond at all and from what i have seen u write, it seemed like u had no respond at all!!
But now i kind of hear the oppesit.
It is very important to be in tune with your body, to keep track of progress. I know this might be hard when u have work and a kid to also take care of.
But still u need to try to keep up your spirit and keep treating.
If u before LLLT just had the same flat and constant T and now after LLLT your T is going up and u are getting sensitive to sounds, that is huge!
That means u are responding and that is first step!
Obviously some respond stronger then others and heal faster ect.
But keep in mind u are responding and then time will tell u were the limit of progress is in your case!
So keep going and try pay a bit more attention! Thats very important and will give great satisfaction during your road to recovery

 

[dboy]

Thanks @FERNANDO GIL & @Nick J. I am inclined to be conservative in what I get excited about - not 'cos I am not hopeful, but having tried some experimental treatments before I know it is easy for me to get excited and think I am on the way to getting better, only to be disappointed. Now I am slow and steady about it. If it works for me then time will tell and I'll be patient until then.

My T has always had good days and bad days so the response is hard to attribute with certainty to treatment. It sounds different moving from one room to another, so no real constant baseline to measure against. But I can tell a bad day from a good day.

It is hard for me to get an audiogram over 8kHz. I live in a village on the coast of Wales. No big towns nearby (which is why we moved here!). I got a copy of my audiogram to 8kHz from ENT appointment. My hearing is not bad. Loss up to 30db around 4kHz I think it was. From testing myself on computer and doing the ANM neuromodulation trial I know that I have little hearing above 12kHz. I think my main T is around 8kHz though, although it is a complex set of sounds not just one..

Anyway, could I ask you guys about the feeling you get when your ears are healing. Is it like that fluttering feeling I described when you hear a harsh sound? Do you know what Hansi's 'feeling of healing' referred to? Thanks!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Do you know what Hansi's 'feeling of healing' referred to? Thanks!

For me is just the felling that is the T lower than it was. I know that if I make a more power nseesion with the laser my T is higher on the next days. But preatty much the same as you describe.

I do fully undesatnd that you do not want to get to excited, It happend to me, when I made the second audiogram till 16Mz , I was felling better, but nothing show up on the audigram, only when I made one a month later I saw some improvements on the low´s. Now I will wait a little till I male the audigram till 16Mz.

Sheers

 

[Nick J.]

Anyway, could I ask you guys about the feeling you get when your ears are healing. Is it like that fluttering feeling I described when you hear a harsh sound? Do you know what Hansi's 'feeling of healing' referred to? Thanks!

Ill try to only respond to the above! I already write to much in here.

U dont feel anything when the heal in that sense!
U just know the are healing in some way from how u react to sounds and how your T is changing.
Lets asume your ears diden't care about your son beeing loud before doing LLLT. This is from my understanding because some cells work ok and will let u hear the sound and some are not working and are in kind of a koma.
Then u start to do LLLT (opening the wound) and after some time, the cells that were in koma are now waking up.
When these cell are now being put in a loud situation, the will try to work now that the are finally out of koma. But still the just cant, since the are still in really bad shape.
So all the can do, is give u the unpleasent feeling when a specific loud frequency is hapening close to u.
This also makes the T a bit louder.
Just like i had it when driving in a car or my dad washing clothes.
That is a state of healing! Cells going from koma to "active" but still not working though.
This waking up is also making your T different througout the day, with spikes of very high T and maybe new sounds for at short time.
Im rambling a bit now...to tired. But that is basicly what happens from my understanding.

 

[felinefine]

fluttering feeling

This is such a strange feeling, I know what you are talking about as I also have this in my noise damaged ear. I also have "crackling" in that ear. Do you know what I mean by that? I believe the fluttering may be the tensor temori muscle (spelling) or the eustacian tube that is "clicking" -the eustacian tube kind of makes a single click. The crackling sounds like it is fluid behind the ear (though the ENT said I had no fluid). Do you have some of these other things too? For instance, when I do the valsa vega maneuver, the "bad" ear takes a longer time to "blow up" or expand rather. I have heard of other people having this symptom in their noise damaged ear as well. I wonder if this is from the eustacian tube being inflamed, since part of it is made from bone, and part is made from cartilage, that then has some effect on fluid in the middle ear that cannot be detected. Maybe this is why I thought I had an effect from the short time I did the laser in the doctor's office, since that laser is good with inflammation (I think all of these lasers are good for that, from what I have read). Gosh I have no idea anymore.

Please tell me if you experience any of these things too, maybe we can figure it out.

 

[felinefine]

Help anyone? This is Anne Harlia's website, but I can't log in. http://www.laserklinikken.no

If I could log in I would just google translate the site from norwegian to english. Thank you!!

 

[Markku]

Help anyone? This is Anne Harlia's website, but I can't log in. http://www.laserklinikken.no

If I could log in I would just google translate the site from norwegian to english. Thank you!!

Try this:

http://www.laserklinikken.com/

The .no site asks for login details for some reason, .com doesn't.

 

[felinefine]

Excellent @Markku! how did you find this?

 

[Markku]

Excellent @Markku! how did you find this?

It was the fourth search result on Google for me:

 

[dboy]

@felinefine I had the crackling, clicks etc while doing hbo a few weeks after noise exposure. My ears were in a bad way at the time as I had had a bad reaction to ototoxic ear drops then damage from noise exposure. At the time I had the fullness feeling in my ears and felt the crackling was a positive sign of that resolving. It did go away, but I can only speculate about a connection. Things seem to change quite a bit in the weeks/months after damage and if you are doing treatments it can be hard to be sure what is caused by the treatment and what is just the natural process of your body dealing with the effects of the assault and finding an equilibrium again. But at least, I do not think the crackles and clicks are anything you need to worry about and may well be the things you suggest (tensor tympani or eustachian tubes).

Thanks @FERNANDO GIL & @Nick J. for your feedback!

 

[felinefine]

At the time I had the fullness feeling in my ears and felt the crackling was a positive sign of that resolving.

ok, gotcha. Do you still have the fullness feeling, or how long did it take to go away?

ha thanks @Markku! I was so puzzled I missed it! I didn't type in laserklinikken, only used her name with things like laser etc.-duh I should have known!

 

[dboy]

ok, gotcha. Do you still have the fullness feeling, or how long did it take to go away?

I cannot remember exactly how long it took to go. I don't think it was an overnight thing, more like it faded gradually. But everyone is different...

 

[felinefine]

@dboy I am on 6 months, it took you a lot sooner than that? Ugh I hope at least that part of it goes away, totally annoying.

How is your T? What does it sound like and is it loud? Is this the main thing that is affecting you right now? Do you also have hearing loss? If so, where? Have you gotten better over time-I see you have been on here for about a year.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi @felinefine

luckylaser@vip.163.com - here is the direct mail to the owner of Lucky laser her name is Lucy, if you decide to buy the laser.
Try as much as possible to make a audiogram all the way to 16Mhz if not at least till 12 Mhz.

Sheers

 

[felinefine]

@FERNANDO GIL thank you!

 

[dboy]

@dboy I am on 6 months, it took you a lot sooner than that? Ugh I hope at least that part of it goes away, totally annoying.

How is your T? What does it sound like and is it loud? Is this the main thing that is affecting you right now? Do you also have hearing loss? If so, where? Have you gotten better over time-I see you have been on here for about a year.

Well, the fullness never really bothered me much, just the tinnitus. I have several tones that seem to constantly vary in relative intensity as though they are competing with each other. It is loud enough that I can hear it over most background noise eg. travelling on a train I can still hear it even when the train is quite loud. But I think lots of people on this forum have it worse than me. When I see people say things like their T is as loud as a kettle going off constantly... well mine is not that loud. But enough to seriously affect my emotional wellbeing in the year and a half-ish since it went from mild to intrusive.

It is a bit better than in the acute stage. As it went into the chronic stage the volume came down slightly and the different sounds seemed to become a bit less differentiated. Also, I had awful crickets for a while. I think they are still in there, but lower in the mix if you get what I mean. The biggest difference is that the overall character of the sounds has changed from incredibly shrill, angry & aggressive to more neutral. This may be because I am sleeping better now and less stressed. The first few weeks I was only sleeping in 2-3 half hour bursts each night, then the noise & anxiety would wake me up. Like most people's, my T doesn't like anxiety or tiredness, and gets very angry under those circumstances.

That reminds me... time for sleep now.

 

[dboy]

P.S. forgot to say, you mentioned the valsalva maneuver I think. Some people have had problems with this and claimed it has worsened their tinnitus. I had a horrible spike for a week and a half once after doing it. Beware.

 

[Nick J.]

Wauw...the last 5 days have been some of my best so fare.
The first of the last 5 days was great. Then followed a bad day that turned good in the evening and then its been great since then (compared to the beginning of LLLT)
When the T is on its lowest, i would estimate the T is reduced by 60-70% and im about 1 week from being 3 month into the LLLT.
Thats huge in my mind and i can feel im getting much more positive about things.
Two nights ago i went to bed very late and i had to get out of bed and take a piss like 10min. after trying to sleep. Since it was late, like 3am. There were no noise from outside or anywere and i remember smiling all over...almost grinning to myself, cuz the T was so low!
Absolutly wonderful
When the T is lowest, something strange happens. The T in my ears goes quiet and then moves like into the center of my head, where it becomes very mellow and feels more like some normal backgroundnoise.
Then if i go for a walk late at night and there is no noise, i cant really hear any T.
Instead i get this funny buzzing kind of feeling at the very top of my throat. Like right on the underside of my skull, and i know its from the T. I just cant explain how the T can make this kind of feeling.
But the buzzing is nothing. So when i walk outside, i dont notice the T at all anymore, unless i try and focus in on it.
In a few days i'll be getting my laser back from my farther and start up on the treatment again, after a 10days break after visiting Anne in Norway!
Can recommend this to everybody! Money well spend and can't wait for my next trip!


Cheers and happy newyear when we get there

 

[dboy]

@Nick J. Congratulations on your fantastic improvement and thanks for letting us all know how it is going. I wish I could afford to visit Anne Harila at the moment. Your T sounds like it is basically reduced to the level where you could live with it without any real problem. But imagine if you could get rid of it completely?? Wishing you luck in getting there. Well done! Happy New Year!