Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

#31
stargazer said:
I have a set of musicians plugs too that I carry on my key chain. I was also ignorant and put myself in noise situations that made my T worse, sometimes temporarily, others permanently (wedding, parties, etc.). The worst was from chaperoning my son's class at the local amusement park. Just didn't even think about how loud it was going to be. I had been there many times over the years before T and not given it a second thought. When I got there with no plugs and realized how loud it was, I knew it was not going to be good (I thought it would be a spike for a few days, maybe a week) but it ended up being worse than that. The good news is that I am used to the new level for the most part ( 6 months later) but if I could go back and have plugs that evening...

Sometimes I think back to how my T was when it first came on (mild in comparison to now) and it is funny how it bothered me so much more than my current levels do. :dunno:
Click to expand...

How did you get it, and how did it get worse?
 
#32
Not sure exactly, though I did a bit of construction work as a teenager and diy projects. It just started faintly one day and seems gets worse if I am exposed to loud noises for a period of time (i.e. parties,etc). One odd pattern that I have noticed is that there is a delay of about 3 days before the spike takes place. So after an exposure I would think I was ok... This made it a little harder to figure out what was going on at first.
 
#33
I have a question. Looking at the reports from this treatment, 1/7 were cured and 70% experience reduction in T.

That means if all of us did this treatment, some of us would definitely have improvement?

Why isn't LLLT more debated/popular?

Over half of the patients (56.9%) had some form of improvement in their tinnitus symptoms. Mild improvement was reported in 33.8% of patients; moderate improvement was reported in 16.9% and full improvement was reported by 6.15% of patients. In patients who reported dizzy spells as a symptom of their tinnitus condition, 27.7% reported mild improvement and 16.9% reported full improvement. Conclusion : Low level laser therapy was found to be useful for treatment of chronic tinnitus.



The intensity of tinnitus ranged between 10-20 db in 6 subjects (12,24%), 25-40 db in 13 (26,53%), 40-60 db in 22 (44,89%), 60-70 db in 4 (8,16%), 70- 90 db in 4 (8,16%). The intensity resulted between 10-20 db in 5 subjects(10,20%), 25-40 db in 17 (34,69%), 40-60 db in 19 (38,77%), 60-70 db in 3 (6,12%), 70-90 db in 3 people (6,12%), not perceived in 2 people (4,08%). Conclusion: In our study the most relevant effect is the reduction of tinnitus intensity in the group of patients who underwent the treatment with active laser. In this group it was observed a statistically significant reduction in tinnitus intensity threshold after LLT therapy.
 
#34
Erlend said:
I have a question. Looking at the reports from this treatment, 1/7 were cured and 70% experience reduction in T.

That means if all of us did this treatment, some of us would definitely have improvement?

Why isn't LLLT more debated/popular?

Over half of the patients (56.9%) had some form of improvement in their tinnitus symptoms. Mild improvement was reported in 33.8% of patients; moderate improvement was reported in 16.9% and full improvement was reported by 6.15% of patients. In patients who reported dizzy spells as a symptom of their tinnitus condition, 27.7% reported mild improvement and 16.9% reported full improvement. Conclusion : Low level laser therapy was found to be useful for treatment of chronic tinnitus.


The intensity of tinnitus ranged between 10-20 db in 6 subjects (12,24%), 25-40 db in 13 (26,53%), 40-60 db in 22 (44,89%), 60-70 db in 4 (8,16%), 70- 90 db in 4 (8,16%). The intensity resulted between 10-20 db in 5 subjects(10,20%), 25-40 db in 17 (34,69%), 40-60 db in 19 (38,77%), 60-70 db in 3 (6,12%), 70-90 db in 3 people (6,12%), not perceived in 2 people (4,08%). Conclusion: In our study the most relevant effect is the reduction of tinnitus intensity in the group of patients who underwent the treatment with active laser. In this group it was observed a statistically significant reduction in tinnitus intensity threshold after LLT therapy.
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Exactly my sentiments.
 
#35
My mother is willing to pay if I haven't improved in a year.

Are the papers that report huge improvement faked? I mean, either laser therapy is VERY effective of those papers are simply faked.
 
#37
Hansi Cross

Hello!

I've read your story about low level laser therapy.

I consider doing this myself, but, am of course worried that it's all bullshit. But with your story it seems more legit.

How is your progress doing? How certain are you that the laser therapy helped you?

Erlend



Hi Erland,

Im sure it helped me.
a) I was getting worse until I started the therapy
b) I have met or talked to at least 20 people with simular experiences
c) The routes - which I described on my web page - that DrWilden predicted occured in real life
4) Hearing tests proved it
 
#39
2 question btw: Why don't more doctors do this? Obviously it helps for some people, and it's more than placebo

and Q2: Why aren't people on TTalk more stoked about this?

Both @Hopeful and I are going to do it, if we get positive results I guess more people will consider it.
 
#41
Erlend said:
From this footage it looks like a serious place, this clinic.

But WHY is it only Dr Wilden that does this? Is he keeping it for himself so that he'll make more money?

Click to expand...


Hi Erland

I have had treatment at Dr Wilden's clinic recently and so I know the guy

Dr Wilden is not keeping the treatment to himself, he is doing his best to promote it and is very frustrated that it doesn't have wider acceptance. He's not trying to make a fortune for himself either, he genuinely believes that he has a solution for inner-ear damage and doesn't understand why more people aren't interested and coming to the clinic or opening-up clinics of their own

From this footage it looks like a serious place, this clinic.

2 question btw: Why don't more doctors do this? Obviously it helps for some people, and it's more than placebo

and Q2: Why aren't people on TTalk more stoked about this?
Click to expand...

The current momentum in the tinnitus treatment market is in the field of 'hearing therapies' which basically means hearing aids. The hearing aid companies make a genuine fortune (billions of dollars a year) from selling their products and aren't going to be keen on any treatment which has a chance of actually reparing cochlear damage... it could put them out of business (watch out Stem Cell research!) and so are really pushing the idea that white noise and/or erratics tones can cure our tinnitus (maybe it can, but it doesn't mean that other therapies should be ignored). In some cases 'investigations' seem to be deliberately conducted by (funded) research departments to disprove LLLT and that has a negative effect on public perception (see an example earlier in this thread). Actually I think Dr Wilden should maybe be grateful that he isn't having more of an impact on the hearing aid companies' profits considerig the sums of money involved here ;)

I have dialogued with Hansi Cross and am convinced that his story is true. His audiograms show an impressive improvement over one year from a clear 'hearing damage' profile to 'normal' up to around 11KHz. I don't know that he would want to go on any forums again however as I know he had a pretty rough time on some of them. I hope I will enjoy the same benefits that Hansi did...

For the moment I'm still waiting for my home laser to arrive however in order to continue treatment so no progress possible for the moment :(
 
#43
How loud was your T when you started the treatment? If mine is very low now, and I am young, are the bigger chances of recovery do you think?



Response;

I had an extreme tinnitus and I was so sensitive to sounds (hyperacousic) that I couldn't be on my back yard because the sound of tweeting birds was painful.

There are three aspects to consider when one estimates once chance to recover.
a) How big is the exhasution or damage of the hearing cells. People with a smaller hearing loss and small tinnitus have a better chance than the opposite.
b) Age. Generally speaking younger persons have a better chance to total recovery.
c) Genetic factors. Some people are born with weaker hearing cells than others (just as some people are born with a better ability to build muscles or heal wounds).

Other things that one need to consider to reach optimum result is:
a) The proper amount of therapy with the rioght quality of the laser light
b) To avoid loudnsess and "garbage sounds". With "garbage sounds" I mean sounds that are no use for you. Noise from the bus or train, noise when you are in the city or at the supermarket. These are sounds that don't give you pleasure or in any are useful to you. The inner ear hearing cells are just like any cell in your body driven by energy and if the have to "work" with unnecessary sounds they will use the enrgy for that and then there is less energy they can use to heal. It's as simple as that.

When you irridate the ears (it must reach into the cochlea where the hearing cells are - therefore the light must be strong enough) the cells start to produce energy. The name of this energy is ATP. This can then be used to recover naturally. Therefore you will have a better effect if you use earplugs at noisy places, and MUST avoid loudness. Concerts and going to a hockey game and that kind of loudness is strictly forbidden and can hurt your ears. The limit set to 80 dB that health care has is to high fpr you. That limit is for young people with strong healthy ears. Not for you or me. You can have 80 dB wthout getting hurt but not for hours.

I also believe that healthy food, vitamins and minerals and things lika taking a walk in the forest to get somr fresha air etc might also help a little bit,but the main thing is to use laser properly and avoid unnessesary souynds and loudness.
 
#44
Jake said:
@Owch , if you wouldn't mind, what kind of laser did purchase? I am interested in getting one myself. Thanks!
Click to expand...

I have ordered the MLS laser from Dr Wilden, but as it hasn't arrived yet I'm not able to comment on if it is good or not (it is supposedly being sent out today). The equipment looks like a pair of in-ear headphones, but with lasers as earpieces

The laser cost a lot of money but I personally think it is worth spending more in order to get something that offers good quality. Dr Wilden also offers a laser pen which is about half the price of the MLS and more powerful, but which can only treat one ear at a time and which you need to hold yourself while applying the light. We discussed it and in the end decided the MLS would be more appropriate for me but the situation probably depends on the individual. Konftec offers much cheaper lasers, and I did contact Dan to ask if he still had his for sale a while back but I'm now rather glad I didn't get them as I know Hansi Cross seemed a bit ambivalent about the Konftec laser he bought and prefers the MLS (apologies to Hansi for relaying his opinions 'second hand') - I also know Dr Wilden is very angry at Konftec for stealing his MLS design without paying any royalties

If you do get a laser it is important to find out how to treat your ears in terms of number of sessions and duration. I know that people who use LLLT don't do it every day but seem to use it for four or five days in a row and then take a 'rest' for a couple of days before applying it again. It might also be worth trying to find a clinic near to you which could offer exposure to higher-dose laser radiation as a way to 'kick-start' the treatment process, but these are both subjects to discuss with a doctor (Dr Wilden normally replies to email questions on such subjects)
 
#45
I'm contacting Dr. Wilden via e-mail with some questions.

I'm willing to give this a shot, seriously. My hearing is a lot better off than many who suffer hearing loss + tinnitus (15+ kHZ in both ears... purdy good). I'm just wondering if this is worth pursuing for my 16kHZ tinnitus (yeah it's high pitched... at least chalkboard sounds don't bother me anymore LOL)
 
#52
I don't know.. He is a real person, and has been kind to answer my questions. But maybe he had a minor improvement, and then made an agreement with Dr Wilden to be a "posterboy", and posted an exaggerated story online?

I'm a little ashamed to speculate like this if he is 100% legit, but yeah... Gotta consider every possibility.
 
#53
Erlend said:
I don't know.. He is a real person, and has been kind to answer my questions. But maybe he had a minor improvement, and then made an agreement with Dr Wilden to be a "posterboy", and posted an exaggerated story online?

I'm a little ashamed to speculate like this if he is 100% legit, but yeah... Gotta consider every possibility.
Click to expand...

I don't think Hansi is a scammer, I exchanged quite a few Emails with him before I went and he seemed legitimate to me

I've posted on this forum as well concerning the treatment and I can assure you that I haven't been offered any money or 'incentives' of any kind by Dr Wilden

What Dr Wilden does do is ask you to communicate your experiences of the treatment to other people if you get the opportunity, but I d0n't think that is unreasonable. After spending some time at his clinic talking with him, I'm sure that Dr Wilden personally believes in his treatment and I d0n't think he's making a fortune out of his clinic

Of course these are my *impressions* and I have no proof of this other than my feelings when I was interacting with Hansi and Dr Wilden, but I even without my personal feelings I find it difficult to believe that a qualified doctor needs to stoop to 'scams' in order to make a living

Concerning the patients, I did see somebody who showed an astonishing improvement in their audiogram during the second week that I was there, so it does seem to happen...

Please feel free to send me a personal message if you have any detailed questions as it's probably not best to get into too many specifics in this thread
 
#54
Yep I think I'll give it a shot, I mean, no one else has anything to offer.

But I don't like the fact that both audiograms are done there at the clinic.

I'm also confused, why isn't this more popular? (Might be because all ENTs say "live with it") Why do people in the german tinnitus forum seem to think he is a scammer?

And he should get a new website.
 
#55
Erlend said:
Yep I think I'll give it a shot, I mean, no one else has anything to offer.

But I don't like the fact that both audiograms are done there at the clinic.

I'm also confused, why isn't this more popular? (Might be because all ENTs say "live with it") Why do people in the german tinnitus forum seem to think he is a scammer?

And he should get a new website.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about the audiograms being done at the clinic... you can get an independent one free at any hearing aid centre before and after you take the therapy. It would be a very dumb doctor that 'faked' a huge improvement in the second audiogram only for the person to walk out of the clinic, down the road to the nearest hearing aid centre to find that it was a lie!

I don't know why the german tinnitus forum don't like him.

This is his latest website... he finished it a few weeks ago and forwarded me the link. Still very 'wordy' though (and being in German I don't understand most of them! :)):
www.dasgesundeohr.de
 
#56
If the hearing test results are true and permanent, the LLLT should be seriously considered by scientists. Maybe the low laser inhibits notch signaling in the cochlea therefore induces hearing restoration.. Or prevention of garbage and loud sounds make the knocked down hair cells stand up again... ????
 
#57
cmurem said:
If the hearing test results are true and permanent, the LLLT should be seriously considered by scientists. Maybe the low laser inhibits notch signaling in the cochlea therefore induces hearing restoration.. Or prevention of garbage and loud sounds make the knocked down hair cells stand up again... ????
Click to expand...
The theory as I understand it is that the visible-spectra radiation of the laser light stimulates the mitochondria in the cells to generate more of a substance called ATP, which is responsible for the repair and regeneration processes within those cells.

The role and relationship between mitochondria and ATP is well understood. The divergence of LLLT proponents appears to be in the way that the mitochondria receive their energy: conventional theory is that the energy is supplied via an 'electron transport chain' and indeed the guy that worked out the mechanism for this won the Nobel Prize for his work; however LLLT proponents believe that the energy transfer instead comes from small electromagnetic energy transfers from outside the cell in the visible spectra generated during molecular decomposition, and they state that the source molecules have resonent energy levels equivalent to visible sectra radiation as a supporting factor.

I do not have the expertise to discuss this and am just relaying what I understood from my discussions with Dr Wilden. I have the admit that I personally find the idea of tiny flashes of light all over our body providing the energy to our cells to be very attractive, and Dr Wilden commented 'the first cells took their energy from sunlight, why would ours forget how to do this' which is also an 'attractive', though not necessarily a persuasive arguement

I think the important point is that there could be a scientifically credible mechanism which would support the regeneration processes that LLLT proposes.
 
#58
I wonder whether it is possible to see the low laser effect in a culture dish.. If we ask it to hearing restoration project members could it be ridiculous? :)
 
#60
Owch said:
The theory as I understand it is that the visible-spectra radiation of the laser light stimulates the mitochondria in the cells to generate more of a substance called ATP, which is responsible for the repair and regeneration processes within those cells.

The role and relationship between mitochondria and ATP is well understood. The divergence of LLLT proponents appears to be in the way that the mitochondria receive their energy: conventional theory is that the energy is supplied via an 'electron transport chain' and indeed the guy that worked out the mechanism for this won the Nobel Prize for his work; however LLLT proponents believe that the energy transfer instead comes from small electromagnetic energy transfers from outside the cell in the visible spectra generated during molecular decomposition, and they state that the source molecules have resonent energy levels equivalent to visible sectra radiation as a supporting factor.

I do not have the expertise to discuss this and am just relaying what I understood from my discussions with Dr Wilden. I have the admit that I personally find the idea of tiny flashes of light all over our body providing the energy to our cells to be very attractive, and Dr Wilden commented 'the first cells took their energy from sunlight, why would ours forget how to do this' which is also an 'attractive', though not necessarily a persuasive arguement

I think the important point is that there could be a scientifically credible mechanism which would support the regeneration processes that LLLT proposes.
Click to expand...
I sometimes used to sit in the sunlight in summer,with my ear towards the sun, I used to feel the spike going down.
 

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