Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

That can be really groundbreaking..If they achieve to get next step they will be able to observe the cochlea of living subjects. Thus preventions and threapies, or healing reaction of the body in different levels of damage can be tested whether they are beneficial or not. Maybe how the drugs or swere stress and depression cause cochlea damage, can be understood.

 

Dear Dr Wilden

In mid may 2013 I was on an extremely loud "partybus", as a part of a Norwegian post graduation tradition. For about three hours I was in what I assume was 140-150 dB.

My ears were ringing loudly for a week, until I did a vasalva maneuver. The ringing was reduced a lot.

But it is still here, fairly loud, 5 months later. Not much change. I have also developed hyperacusis, middle ear myoclonus and tonic tensor tympani syndrome.

I believe all of these are results of the attention, stress and tension the tinnitus is causing to my ears.

I am 19 years old, male. I have read that this gives a bigger chance of positive results from your treatments.

My tinnitus consists of different sounds. One that I only hear in silent environment, a low humming similar to that of a car being parked outside with its engine on. It's not very annoying, but it's one of them, and louder when I'm drunk.

Another is what I call the "spinning metal wheel". I have this in both ears, but it's louder in my right.

But the "main" sound, which is the worst one, is a high pitched sound in both ears, but absolutely louder in my left ear (my left side was facing the speakers in the bus). I find it difficult to describe it, I guess you can say it sounds like a fridge, but very high pitched.

I also have, although the degree of this varies, a "shooting" pattern in my tinnitus. A high pitched tone that goes like this: ____---___---__---_---_____---____--___--__-_---______--____

If that makes sense.

I consider paying for your treatment.

What do you think are the chances for me to recover, to some degree?




Response:


Dear Erlend,

thank you for your e-mail.

You experience the very strong regeneration power inside your hearing cells after a very very heavy acustic trauma. You will have a very good benefit from our therapy because this is the most intelligent way to support your already acting biological regeneration process of your inner ear organ (go for this to all our websides).

For a more individual advise I (and you) needs to see your audiogram. You are welcome to send it to me.

Sincerely

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Dr. med. Lutz Wilden

 

Are you still thinking about going through with it?

 

I don't really know. Dr Wilden requested auduigrams, so I guess I should make an ENT appointment. I think hopeful is though.

 

You can probably just go to an audiologist for that.

Why does he need an audiogram? To make sure you're not completely deaf?

 

No I think he uses it to tweak and adjust his treatment program specifically for each patient

 

An interesting point but on reflection I don't think this is a particularly good comparison:

1. The results of eye surgery are immediate and clear (people walk in with poor vision, and wake up after the infections etc have calmed down a few days later with good vision). LLLT takes a long time to work (if it works at all) and the results are much less clearly defined and quantified. Setting-up an eye surgery practice is correspondingly a much easier 'sell' to the public than setting-up an LLLT treatment clinic in which people may get bored or frustrated when they don't see short-term results. Add to that most of the medical establishment telling people not to use LLLT and you don't have the most attractive business prospect...

2. Laser Eye surgery is a potentially dangerous procedure that requires highly specialised and highly qualified staff to perform. It is very profitable for those performing the procedure as only a very limited group of people are allowed to do it. In contrast LLLT simply requires pointing a glorified laser pointer into somebody's ear. No particular qualifications are required and treatment margins would be difficult to maintain if it did become popular (home LLLT units from China would probably only cost a few tens of dollars each if sold by the million).

3. Laser Eye surgery does not threaten optometry or sales of glasses (though I know a couple of optometrists who don't like it) - although the surgery clearly works, the majority of people (and I am one) would simply rather live with the inconvenience of wearing glasses or contact lenses than take the associated risks of somebody 'cutting-up' their eyes. In comparison there is no such adversion to 'shining a light into ones ears', and so if it was found that long term treatment via LLLT could cure many forms of deafness then the hearing aid industry would be pretty much destroyed. Thus we see rather few optical-industry-funded studies over the risks of laser surgery, but seemingly plenty of hearing-aid-industry-funded studies which prove that 'three minutes total of very low power LLLT treatment in each ear over one week does not cure deafness'

What I don't understand is why there isn't a peer review of Dr Wilden's patients. Why doesn't an independent researcher (or even a journalist?) follow-up on the patients Dr Wilden claims to have successfully treated and verifiy whether there were medical records of hearing problems before starting treatment and a corresponding, maintained improvement in the audiogram of that patient now? I'm simply talking about audiogram performance here as that is much easier to check and verify than subjective tinnitus perception.

 

Hmm, now I uderstand Dr. Wilden.. The natural ATP production of our body is not enough to regenerate haircells, thus we use low laser to produce more ATP to be healed. Why his theory is not accepted is because the clinical trials and researches on LLT are handled incorrectly or the hearing device companies do not like him. And, here, ATP is the only answer; it is that simple. File closed, everybody go home..

 

It wouldn't be the first time this has happened. Here is an interesting article about a medicine which is now being marketed by 'Big Pharma', a hundred years after the medical establishment accused the originator and his sole european clinic of 'quackery':
The strange story of umckaloabo
The product was more or less forgotten about in europe after the guy died in 1942 and only started getting marketed again seriously in the late 1990's. I was actually recommended the product a few years ago by a pharmacist, and found it very effective as do most of the other people I know who have taken it, even though according to wikipedia it is still controversial:
Pelargonium sidoides - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Owch, we haven't heard from you since your last post Dec. 2, 2013, when you cited small, subtle improvements with T. . Are you making any progress with the home laser unit you recently purchased from Dr. Wilden? Any improvements with that unit, thus far? And, do you still feel that having a 10-day laser treatment at Dr. Wilden's clinic in Sept. 2013 was worth it? What did that 10-day treatment cost, including the costs of travel, etc. The Dec. 13, 2013 message from SISKO, who went to the clinic, was completely negative, implying that Dr. Wilden's audiograms are faked and that he is only making patients feel more positive, mentally. Do you have any responses to those accusations? Lastly, it seems you are in touch with Hansi Cross, whose tinnitus issue began in 2007. Do you know how Hansi is doing with his tinnitus, to date? How did you get in touch with him? Thanks!

 

Ann19, laser light for tinnitus does not work.
In fact the home lasers also gave me severe vertigo! I would be sitting on the couch watching television and suddenly I found myself on the floor! Buyer beware.
I sold my Emlas lasers on Ebay for $350 - nobody here was interested a year ago when I asked.

 

Hi Ann

Sorry for the delay in replying as I was away over christmas.

I'm still plugging away with the home laser treatement. I was not able to do it properly in November as I was out of the country for some time and forgot to take my laser with me and so I have only really been able to do it for about 7 weeks so far which is still a bit short to come to any conclusions.

I feel that my hyperacausis is continuing to improve slowly and I seldom get pressure issues now which is good news. I'm not sure if these improvements are related to the laser treatment or not. I am personally begining to come to terms with my tinnitus (not least because the treatment makes me feel that I am doing something positive) and think it is slightly softer and higher pitched than before (people talk about 'crickets' turning into 'hard disks' which is probably a close description of my experience), but the changes are slow so it is difficult to see over a period of time what is happening. I have not taken another audiogram yet so I am not sure if there has been any improvement in my hearing or not. I think I will probably wait until Feburary until I take an audiogram again so that I can give it several months to have an effect (or not).

In terms of the negative comments, it's not really for me to get into arguments 'defending' Dr Wilden as I am not his representative but I can certainly say that my audiograms were not faked as they corresponded pretty closely to the audiograms I got at the local hearing aid centre before and after the treatment. I do not believe that Dr Wilden is just trying to make people 'feel good', I think he sincerely believes that his treatment works

The treatment sessions cost me euro 200 per hour and I had ten sessions of one hour. Dr Wilden did not charge me for the questions and discussions that we had after each of the sessions so my total price was euro 2000. Some people only have five sessions so I assume they pay euro 1000 total. I stayed at the 'Dream Inn Hotel' during my treatment which was the cheapest I could find though it was located in a villiage outside Regensburg, and I caught the bus to and from the clinic each day (direct bus, almost door to door!): http://dreaminn-regensburg.de/hp1/Startseite.htm . You can find rates on booking.com. Regensburg itself is a really boring 'hole' of a town with nothing to do and so I took a German language course at the Berlitz Language school which cost an absolute fortune. If you are moderate you can probably eat for around Euro 15 to Euro 20 per day (eg. there is a great indian restaurant called the Ganesh with a lunchtime menu for Euro 6.50). In terms of travel I went to Regensburg via Munich using the train as air flights to Munich were absurdly expensive. Regensburg is approx halfway between Munich and Nuremberg so you should calculate how much it will cost you to get to either of those locations and then add a few more euros for the train from there

For me personally I believe that the effort and expenditure has been worth it because it has given me a method to fight against this problem and the hope that things might get better in time. You have to make your own choice on the matter however

Good luck!

 

This topic has probably been covered before but I found this on my travels the the internet. Its worth a read.

http://www.odiomed.com/eng/Default.aspx

 

@Owch: my audiograms and from other persons I know that it didn't corresponded with the ones from ENT.
This is fact - no discussion.

Of course if anybody want to try this laser stuff treatment, I will not keep off from doing it. Just share afterwards your experience. If it helps, u are lucky guy.

BTw: I have one Laser Pen Device . I can sell it to anyone who wants to try this first at home for 3 months or so.

Its the 30mW device from Dr Wildon.

 

Hi sisko how much are you selling the pen for? Did the pen work for you in anyway at all?

 

Hi OWCH,

Thanks so much for your kind, thoughtful and helpful reply to my questions regarding your trip to
see Dr. Wilden for Low-Level Laser Light treatments in Regensburg, Germany. I now have an idea what to expect, regarding cost, if I do decide to try the treatment. And, thanks for the travel tips.

Of course, I wish you had realized by now more positive changes in your tinnitus levels, etc., but as you said, you have only been using the LLLL home device from Dr. Wilden, for 7 weeks. By the way, did he give you any idea how long it typically takes to see results? Also, how severe is your tinnitus (mild, moderate or severe)? And, how many hours a day do you use the LLLL device? Did you purchase Wilden's MLS unit or the laser pen? And, what did that unit cost? All that will be most helpful to know.

Also, I hope you will find time to tell me how you got in touch with Hansi, who has written extensively on his apparently very successful treatments through Dr. Wilden.

As for me, I recently emailed Dr. Wilden to learn more. I received a reply, yesterday. He asked for my recent audiograms, which I will be emailing, soon. He said he could advise me better, once he saw them. In the email, he attached a link to his Web site http://www.dasgesundeohr.de/ (which is all in German) but if you scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the U.S. flag icon that says "English version," you'll get a PDF file with about 70-plus pages of his info on tinnitus, hyperacusis, the "stuffy ear" syndrome, etc. (I am sure you have read this already. I am simply relating this for the benefit of other readers.) The English translation is a bit awkward; nonetheless, but I found his theories made a lot of sense, particularly about the need to protect the ear. To date, I have not decided on what my course of treatment will be yet.

My tinnitus started in early Sept. 2014, with significant hearing loss in my left ear, in lower decibel ranges. My hearing had been in the normal ranges, before the incident began. Interestingly, I showed a significant improvement in my left ear, according to my most recent audiogram, done Jan. 9, 2014. The audiologist said: "It happens." I have, the audiologist said, a mild form of tinnitus. But, I am also beginning to get ringing in my right ear, which I mentioned, but he did not address that issue, at that time.

According to Dr. Wilden, it takes a long time — years — for the ear to finally get "exhausted" from stress and strain, including certain medications and illness. And, he says the exhausted ear can recover some on its own, particularly if kept in a quiet environment. In his PDF writeup, he highly recommends protecting the ear at all times by wearing ear plugs, to help the ear recover. (For more details, read his writeup.) The audiologist I just saw, however, strongly advised me not to wear ear plugs around the house — only use them for noisy situations. He said, it would exacerbate the situation, and he compared it to wearing sunglasses indoors. He also said that driving in the car would not hurt my ears. However, I think Dr. Wilden's counsel makes more sense. I wore ear protection driving to the audiologist that day, but because of his advice, I didn't wear any during the 1 hour and 45 minute drive home. The next day, my ears were ringing significantly louder.

I went to see this audiologist to learn more about the Neuromonics program that he offers. (Readers can learn more about Neuromonics at other TinnitusTalk sites.) He said I was a candidate for Neuromonics and because I have mild tinnitus, I would benefit by using a newer, much less expensive Neuromonics device, which costs "only" $995. This model cannot be reprogrammed, however, unlike the pricey model that costs roughly $5,000. However, after reading Dr. Wilden's writeup about being careful not to expose the ear to unnecessary noise, the idea of listening to a "spectally-modified neural stimulus .... embedded within precisely designed music .... that engages the limbic system," according to their brochure, doesn't at this time, seem appealing.

Also, this audiologist told me that he has had a 90 percent success rate with Neuromonics, but that success I later learned, has been with the pricey model, not the low-cost unit. I had to ask him direct and specific questions in a phone consult after the visit, to find that out. I don't know yet, what success rate the low-cost version is having. And, I still don't know what that 90 percent success rate means? Do 90 percent of his patients achieve 100 percent improvement with the pricey device? I strongly doubt that. Within that happy 90 percent, there is most likely a bell curve — so many patients achieve 20 percent improvement, so many realize 50 percent improvement, and so on. I tried to ask him that question, but somehow, I didn't get through that day, so I will call him again, later. Suffice it to say, it pays to ask questions.

Despite a lot of gaps in my information about Neuromonics, it is hopeful that apparently, some of this audiologist's patients have shown improvements, so I have bookmarked this treatment option. I am still in an investigative phase and keeping an open mind.

One last thing: I have been in contact with a fellow named Manfred, who was treated, much to his satisfaction, by Dr. Wilden, according to his account at: http://www.tinnituspatient.de/ukmanfred.htm
He said that Dr. Wilden is leaving his practice in Regensburg, Germany after a very difficult year, and is moving to Ibiza, Spain, to live and work there. Last summer, according to Manfred, his home was flooded out and he has been "frozen out" by ENTs in the surrounding area, so that he has had fewer and fewer patients.

Dr. Wilden's office phone in Regensburg is telefon praxis +49 (0)941 58614634 and his email is: info@lasertherapieregensburg.de. Manfred also mentioned that Wilden's son, Amon Kaiser is doing the same laser therapy in Baden Baden, Germany. Go to: (http://www.lumomed.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=88&lang=en).

Manfred has had a series of treatments by Dr. Wilden over the years and at home now uses an ELP laser-pen 650 nm 30 mw, which he purchased from Dr. Wilden. He believes that Wilden now has an even stronger laser pen than the one he uses, currently. He said: "My hearing is good and I have in 4 days, 2 days without any noise, and for the other 2 days, I hear a soft noise, no problem."

OWCH, thanks again for your useful information. I hope you can respond to my question about Hansi. And, I hope you begin to notice significant improvement! Keep us posted. — Ann

 

Hi Matthew

I bought it for about 1000€ that time. If u are interested in it for home therapy I would sell it for the half.

But honestly - keep your money back and don't consider this for relief or big chance for hearing restore. ok there are some people who claim that it helped. However for me it was big financial issue and stress.. Today I wouldn't propose to anybody this therapy.

Leave me a message if you despite of my mindset want to try it.

 

Hi Owch,

I wrote you on Jan. 12, 2014, wondering how you are responding to your LLLL therapy with Dr. Wilden. I do hope things are going well, but I'd like to know more! I am considering the therapy and your input would be valuable to me, and to all at this site.
Ann19

 

Sorry for the delay in my response (didn't see you had written to me) and have kept out of this thread as there are some pretty strong opinions here and I don't want to be seen as a 'spokesman' for the treatment

I'm still doing the therapy. I have the feeling there is some ongoing slight improvement in my hyperacusis. The pressure issues I had before seem to have more or less gone. I still have tinnitus and haven't got around to taking another audiogram yet. The tinnitus is still bothering me, but not as much as it did before, though maybe that is just some mild form of habituation

If you have any questions please feel free to PM me!

 

i had suffered H for one constant year after ac.trauma.It did gradually became better, but some ear pain was almost always preset, never both ear at the same time. I couldnt sleep on my ear on pillow. After 5 day treatment it was much better, right away, heard new sounds at higher frequency and tolerance went up, i still cringe when plates go together but its the left over of phonobobia- main thing is that it doesn't hurt.

From now on I'm protecting religiously, its quite tricky as i have 7 month old daughter(i know i will have set back one day). Also looking ways to get back to work but i don't want to wear 8 h per day protection, it will make things worse again, i fear. I have no regrets whatsoever about the therapy. I would have made lots of angry noise if it didn't do anything, cause I'm not working right now and i had to sell some stuff (music related= useless nowadays lol).

For this therapy only, i wouldn't take a trip to another continent as its probably same expense as the therapy itself= overpriced. Too bad its not mainstream, it would be very cheap and everyone could try it out. You do know that its not some kind of a Dr.Wilden invention or smt? There are lots of clinics out there offering laser therapies for numerous things, its not like it doesn't have the ability to stimulate cell repairing. We just can't see what it does inside the cochlea, exactly. Its not skin, where you could see the improvement. I don't even trust the audiogram, i just know subjectively that i got better not cured, thats all i wished for last christmas honestly.

 

@rainman -

Thanks for explaining why you feel the way you do about LLLT and hyperacusis.

Stephen Nagler

 

Yes, I also feel that there are some gentle improvements in my condition and like you clinking plates are not such a terror as they were before starting the treatment (though I still have problems with music - horrible for an ex-musician like myself). I was already aware that it would take a long time (if ever) to see the benefits of the treatment and I am being patient - it's not as if there are a lot of alternatives out there.

I really don't understand the level of hostility to this treatment. As you say, rather like HBOT, LLLT is established on the periphery of the medical establishment and there is a theory which explains how it could work (stimulation of mytochondria in cells causing generation of ATP), and there are some tests which indicate success when sufficient quantities of laser light are applied to damaged rat cochleas, as well as documented evidence of improvments for other conditions when applied to different areas of the body (particularly skin damage, as you say). Dr Wilden himself is a qualified doctor and there are other qualified medical people who do believe it works, along with other qualified medical people who believe that it doesn't work. The attitude of the Doctors and audiologists I spoke to before I went was 'if you are prepared to spend the money then why not try' (interestingly the same medical practitioners are much more circumspect about injections into the ear and stem cell treatments).

I took 12 sessions of HBOT at the University Hospital in Geneva (applied by qualified doctors) and it cost me a lot more than the two weeks of sessions at Dr Wilden's clinic and a pair of his laser headphones combined... the HBOT had no positive effect on my tinnitus and may even have given me a barotrauma, but I don't declare HBOT to be a 'scam', I just accept that I took a chance trying it and that it didn't work for me but maybe it will work for others (people with internal organ damage and bacterial skin infections seemed to do well from it).

The cost of LLLT is simply a product of it not being a mainstream treatment and consequently the low production volumes of the lasers mean it is very expensive (hearing aids are mass production items but still cost a fortune - there's a scam if you want one!). If LLLT was mainstream it would be dirt cheap (Dr Wilden himself said that to me). I have found that visits to ENTs have cost me a lot of money without producing *any* positive benefits so I guess one could argue that on an 'ROCE basis' Wilden's therapy with its mild improvments seem to be about the best money I have spent so far on treating this condition (ie. something back for a lot of money spent is better than nothing back for a lot of money spent!)

 

I know that a lot of people say that (it appears to be a cornerstone of TRT), but I'm really not sure it is correct. I have been using ear plugs a lot since my LLLT treatments started (at Dr Wilden's suggestion) and my hyperacusis is improving slowly. I use them on busy roads, in supermarkets, in mildly noisy restaurants (I don't go into noisy ones), public transport, noisy private vehicles etc etc and I'm finding my noise tolerance is slowly improving. I don't use ear plugs all the time, but whenever the situation starts getting slightly noisy they get put in.

Dr Wilden suggested to me that for slight hearing losses of 15db and less, simply protecting the hearing from such loud noises for a few weeks without LLLT (ie. no money for him) was often sufficient for the hearing to recover.

 

So Dr. Wilden and I disagree. It happens. (No money for me, either!)

The important thing is that you get better. All good wishes to you in that regard.

Stephen Nagler

 

And to you too

I have just had a look back at some of your posts... I think you have taken TRT treatment?

How did it work for you, do you feel you are cured? Do you know what caused your tinnitus, did you also have hyperacusis?

I'm thinking that I will leave TRT until I have exhausted all the options for some sort of 'biological' improvement in my ears (I can hear my fridge and it annoys the hell out of me!)

I'm sorry if I don't recognise you as I keep away from the other internet tinnitus forums... many seem agressive and depressing in equal quantities

 

Had 10 LLLT sessions over period of 3 weeks with my chiropractor and quite frankly it seemed to be just a bunch of woo-woo. This was done with ExTremely expensive equipment too, not with a commercially available for home use device. It didn't make any difference whatsoever in my T. Just anecdotal info here, but thought I'd pass it along FWIW.

 

hi Dan,

Do you still have the Konf laser for sale?

Thanks
Paul

 

30mW 660nm
90mW 808nm

 

http://www.dasgesundeohr.de/pdf/Neuer_Text_Dr_Wilden_en.pdf

Dr.Wilden theories, now in english.