There is evidence of hearing loss recovery though don't talk to much , some people do benifit from it
Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)
- Thread starter joe
- Start date
Could perfectly be happening for reasons not at all to do with cochlear regeneration, like elimination of herpes zoster affecting vestibular fluids or hearing passages of some sort. Which would explain the quantity of people bringing in improved audiometric results compared with the very few cases of disappeared TTTS-like symptoms, not to mention tinnitus disappearance.
MemberHello everyone. Brand new to the forum. I have however been reading this forum quite a bit for the past 2 months since I had my last T spike in Sept. I am very appreciate of all the info. and experience I have read about on this forum so I feel it's my turn to post and possibly offer any insights. Some of the info. that I read about was about LLLT and Dr. Wilden, so I decided to go to Dr. Wilden in Ibiza and get if a try. I finished my sixth session of one hour daily therapies today. I will be here for 10 therapies total. If I can be of assistance to anyone or answer any questions I would be happy to try. I also took a few pics from Dr. Wildens new office, the lasers he uses ( he currently has 4, he had 7 in Germany ) and his treatment areas and so you can all have a look. In general, it's a very nice clean office.
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Please keep us up to date on your progress. If you can, post a before and after audiogram. I'd love to see the progress.
Attached is the audiogram I did at Dr. Wildens office just before I started my first therapy. I don't have to much hearing loss. That's never been my issue. I just have the ringing T. At least up to 12k. Dr. Wilden says I may have more loss over 12k but the audiogram only goes up to 12k. Which is better than most audiograms which typically go up to just 8k. He said he expects me to recover more quickly than most as my ear damage is not as severe as what he typically treats. I certanily hope that turns out to be the case...
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Ecip
Member
- Nov 8, 2015
- 686
- Tinnitus Since
- 4.11.2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Still unknown... possibly noise exposure?
- Jul 19, 2015
- 70
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999 / Hyperacusis since 2012
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acustic trauma
(although im relatively new on TT forum let me say to you
Welcome TOVEGA,
Im happy this thread have new informative posts / i also started 3 months ago but only made 5 days (professional and intense) sessions with LLLT but my option was in a Norway clinic.
Im going back again begining of December for more 3 days and then i will make a decision if i will buy or not a home device.
May i ask if you was advised to buy a home laser?
To share with you (and all members) my experience until today:
- Up to now didnt found any changes on T or earing increase (but only made 5 days treatment and it was told me clearly this is a long term treatment and slow process...)
- I may have some improvment on H (but the true is i have been "shielded" myself from loud noises so this make influence).
- The clinic advise was "protect your ears" during and after LLLT treatment.
- As far i can see by your pictures the equipment seems similar to my experience.
- If or when i get conclusive results (or not) i will report here as well.
In the end, i am glad more people is trying and report this treatment / also find a kind of "strange" why we are just a few members to share experiences here (any clinic or place - it does not metter at this point) the goal is getting better i guess.
Thank you for your posts (i found a bigger support for me as i am in beginning on this process too)
Keep in touch / All the best!
Ricardo
canyonero
Member
You mean is he working for DR Wilden? Probably or he wouldn't have posted all those pics from inside the clinic.
First of all I am not working for Dr. Wilden. Based on some of the past responses I knew I would get some sort of cynical response. Quite the opposite, I'm paying out a lot of money. 2.000 Euros for 10 days of treatment. Plus I plan on buying the home machine to use after my 10 days of treatments. Plus travel expenses. The obvious advantage with the home laser is that you can you can use LLLT anytime and it's more effective over the long run. It can also be shared. If anything Dr. Wilden who is now 66 years old is downsizing his practice. I think he's semi retired now. He is still very passionate about LLLT though. Canyonero, if you sit around doing nothing then you will get nothing. Better to try and fail than to never had tried at all. So until the ENT calls me and says the magic pill to cure T came out, I will be trying all alternative T therapies I can find, not just LLLT. I would encourage others to do the same. You never know, some things work for some people and not for others. It's even similar with approved and tested drugs out there for other disorders. Works for some and others get a bad reaction.
Is the therapy working for me? In terms of effect I do feel that there is an effect. When the therapy starts I immediately can tell the machine is on even though I'm blindfolded for eye protection. It's a warm and pleasant feeling. So it's more than just a flashlight. There is also a noticeable difference in hearing for me. I feel that my hearing is better. Meaning clearer and crisper. Brighter and more vivid. I feel that things are closer to me than they really are. I hear things from further away that I did not notice before. That I noticed in the middle of the first week of one hour therapies. I do my 7th therapy today. So I'm happy about that. Even though my hearing was never a big issue, the T is.
In terms of T, it is not gone yet no. I still hear it but it I find that it's fluctuating and changing, going up then down. Something that hasn't been the case before. Thanks to other posts from people like Fernanado I did expect a spike and that did happen. So I feel that there is some effect. I'm a skeptic, so to me this is surprisingly good news. But I came into this not thinking that LLLT would be an instant cure for T like flipping on a light switch. The basis of LLLT is the heal and help regenerate the ear, if that happens then theoretically the symptoms of ear damage like balance, hearing loss and T will lessen or hopefully go away entirely. So I am not expecting instant results but am hoping there is a lessening or disappearance of my T in the weeks and months ahead. From what I read about others on this board, it can take time. But sitting around doing nothing is not an option for me. Any other questions let me know...
Is the therapy working for me? In terms of effect I do feel that there is an effect. When the therapy starts I immediately can tell the machine is on even though I'm blindfolded for eye protection. It's a warm and pleasant feeling. So it's more than just a flashlight. There is also a noticeable difference in hearing for me. I feel that my hearing is better. Meaning clearer and crisper. Brighter and more vivid. I feel that things are closer to me than they really are. I hear things from further away that I did not notice before. That I noticed in the middle of the first week of one hour therapies. I do my 7th therapy today. So I'm happy about that. Even though my hearing was never a big issue, the T is.
In terms of T, it is not gone yet no. I still hear it but it I find that it's fluctuating and changing, going up then down. Something that hasn't been the case before. Thanks to other posts from people like Fernanado I did expect a spike and that did happen. So I feel that there is some effect. I'm a skeptic, so to me this is surprisingly good news. But I came into this not thinking that LLLT would be an instant cure for T like flipping on a light switch. The basis of LLLT is the heal and help regenerate the ear, if that happens then theoretically the symptoms of ear damage like balance, hearing loss and T will lessen or hopefully go away entirely. So I am not expecting instant results but am hoping there is a lessening or disappearance of my T in the weeks and months ahead. From what I read about others on this board, it can take time. But sitting around doing nothing is not an option for me. Any other questions let me know...
One more thing. I ran across another place offering LLLT for ear issues in Hamburg Germany:
http://www.robert-kroll.com/
I have not ran across his name in this forum before so I figured I'd post it. The website is entirely in German so I can't understand most of it. But Robert Kroll did send me an email in English and said his therapy costs 220 Euros per hour. Has anyone been to him? Hear of him? If anyone is in the Hamburg area and can take a look into his practice it may be helpful to some people on this site.
http://www.robert-kroll.com/
I have not ran across his name in this forum before so I figured I'd post it. The website is entirely in German so I can't understand most of it. But Robert Kroll did send me an email in English and said his therapy costs 220 Euros per hour. Has anyone been to him? Hear of him? If anyone is in the Hamburg area and can take a look into his practice it may be helpful to some people on this site.
Even after reading thread and others about LLLT, many people think LLLT is a fast cure. Unfornatly is not for everyone, and it takes time, a lot of time. If you already felling some diference on your earing,that is a good sign. good you will buy the lazer.
Now you should be careful with your ears, and avoid noise at all cost. For sure Dr Wilden said that. Hope all works out. Or at least you start to get better. The results from the treatment you making will make effect at least for the next 2/3 months. Only then you will the final results.
If possible try to make one all the way to 16th or 20Mhz, for sure your T is on the really high frequencies
Dr. Wilden certainly tells you to avoid noise and wear ear plugs, yes. He claims if noise started the T them more noise from things such as maskers or hearing aids will not make the situation better. I also bought his home laser today too. It's 2.660 Euros. Pricey, but I hope its' worth it. I like knowing that I will have access to it whenever I want. I have read a lot of your posts and found them very helpful. Thanks for posting and for the advice.
So I did an audiogram today at Dr. Wildens office right before my 8th one hour therapy. ( Half an hour on each ear ) See below . The top is the before pic taken 9 days ago before the first therapy and the bottom was taken today before my 8th therapy. As I mentioned earlier, I did feel that my hearing was improving. I felt that after the 2nd or 3rd therapy. I felt my ears sort of open up and freshen up. Things were crisper and clearer and I feel that I hear things from further away. I expected to see this on the audiogram. There is a noticeable improvement in hearing for me. The audiogram shows improvements in all frequencies, some as much as 20 decibels. So as far as hearing goes I definitely feel there is an effect.
As far as the T which is my main issue, I notice fluctuation. But the T is not gone yet. There were a couple of times when the T was so soft that I couldn't sleep from excitement. Then there were a few spikes like yesterday when I thought this therapy is doing more damage than good. But this is something Dr. Wilden told me to expect. Ups and downs as the ear heals. He also said the T would be the last thing to improve, especially since I've had it for such a long time. ( 15 years ) Anyways, I am happy about my hearing improvement but still not entirely convinced that the LLLT will improve my T. I have 2 more therapies to go then I will see. I'm hopeful that after the therapy ends that in the weeks and months to come, the T will fade permanently. I hope this was helpful. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.
As far as the T which is my main issue, I notice fluctuation. But the T is not gone yet. There were a couple of times when the T was so soft that I couldn't sleep from excitement. Then there were a few spikes like yesterday when I thought this therapy is doing more damage than good. But this is something Dr. Wilden told me to expect. Ups and downs as the ear heals. He also said the T would be the last thing to improve, especially since I've had it for such a long time. ( 15 years ) Anyways, I am happy about my hearing improvement but still not entirely convinced that the LLLT will improve my T. I have 2 more therapies to go then I will see. I'm hopeful that after the therapy ends that in the weeks and months to come, the T will fade permanently. I hope this was helpful. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.
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Onnie
Member
- Jul 15, 2015
- 64
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2009
- Cause of Tinnitus
- '09/1.0: Loud concert '15/2.0: Cause unsure
Wow, that looks like a great improvement on the audiogram!
Do you know for how long you have had the hearing loss? Also 15 years?
Do you know for how long you have had the hearing loss? Also 15 years?
I never thought I had any hearing loss. But I guess you don't notice if you gradually lose it over time. I did however notice the increase in hearing which happened over a few days and still remains. What I also did notice was my T and the recent spike in my T. That's my primary complaint. I'm hoping the T eventually improves as much as my hearing did. While I'm certainly happy about the hearing improvement I'll be happier when I have similar T improvement. Dr. Wilden thinks my ears were not too bad to begin with. He thinks 10 therapies are plenty for me and that I shouldn't need any more. Judging by the looks of some other audio grams in his office he may be right. I think I have milder T and hearing than many others after comparing.
Well that's quite something. If only someone took audiogram before-after at some other place as well to exclude the possibility that Wilden manipulates audiogram (Dr. Nagler has left a great doubt in me, sorry about that). If I see one, I'll be booking a flight to Ibiza xD
You must make an audigram all the way to 20Mhz. Only then you will know how your ear is. I had the same you had the days after Dr Wilden tretament. And now when you go home, try to notice if you need to turn the TV volume down, (almost for sure it will happen). Very happy for you. Do you have any other audigram before Dr Wilden. That wouldd be great to see. And of corse we all hope you do one in another audiologist, to confirm DR Wilden´s.
Sheers and all the best.
Fernando
- Aug 14, 2013
- 2,455
- Tinnitus Since
- Resolved since 2016
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Unknown (medication, head injury)
Well... those of us who have actually done the therapy know a fact that all the others don't: you don't need an audiogram to tell that the therapy is working... When a person gains some 20-25 db of hearing over the span of two weeks, you are not in doubt that something is different because you have to turn down the volume on appliances such as iPhones, the TV, youtube listening, and whatever else.
As for audiograms, I actually did one (make that two) at an independent clinic (and had them stamped, no less). I will leave the readers of this forum to find them among my almost 2k posts here on the forum...
Lastly, @Dr. Nagler also left a great doubt in me. But for entirely different reasons. For instance, his so-called financial disclosure that he published here on the forum...
www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-retraining-therapy-trt-financial-disclosure.6281
...is not even worth the paper it is written on. In addition, he also found it somewhat inconvenient when I started to question him on his one dollar salary draw as well as his claim of treating 18% of his patients at no charge:
www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-tinnitus-has-changed.8372/page-9
On a very final note, those who wish to have good laugh (not to mention being appalled by the good doctor), can read the following highly informative link from the archives...
http://dryrun28158.yuku.com/topic/1051/How-low-does-a-Stringplayer-go?page=1#.Vlba23arRD8
(Stringplayer is one of Dr. Nagler's many nick-names on the Internet...).
Well, I'm suspicious towards anecdotal evidence, especially now when Trobalt barely did anything to my T and that combined with Naglers bashing (without scientific proof) about how LLLT can't work doesn't make me wanna spend couple of thousands to roll the dice with LLLT (What was the price anyway for 5 treatments sessions?).
But the positive side of Trobalt not working on me is that I may not have "brain tinnitus" yet so LLLT restoring my high frequency hearing or AM-101 could very well help me.
I've bookmarked your "Dr. Wilden"-audiograms to my T-info folder but I guess I have missed the independent ones.
And yes, I was aware about those resources which you linked and it is a good reminder for everyone on this forum how malicious his purposes were in some way.
Philip83, I don't know what frequencies Dr. Wilden uses. I do know it's 2 different frequencies that are used at the same time. There are 2 different lasers spinning around. He places the laser machine about 10 or so cm. away from your ear. Not directly in your or or on your ear as I've seen others use. Then he will come in every 5-10 minutes and adjust the laser and also focus it out wide which you then sense a lower temperature. He says that's to treat the surrounding support structure of the ear. Then he will focus the laser finer to over a smaller area and you will sense it warming up a bit then. I'm not sure if there's an exact procedure he follows or not.
Blujay, what does he define as noise? I'm not sure there's an exact definition or not. But he encourages you to wear earplugs in the car on the drive home as well as out and about on the street. That's also one of the reasons he is so against hearing aids and maskers. If noise caused the problem in the first place then how will adding even more noise help? My suggestion is to avoid anyplace over 80 decibels.
Zechariah - the therapies cost 200 Euros per hour. His home laser machine is 2.660 Euros.
As far as the audio grams are concerned, yes I do have audio grams done at a hospital and not by Dr. Wilden a month before I visited Dr. Wilden. 2 of them in fact. They both only go up to 8mhz. They are both pretty close to what Dr. Wilden's first audio gram was. I don't have an after audio gram as my last therapy is tomorrow. I do however also feel that audio grams aren't an exact way to measure hearing. Only an approximation. If you listen more carefully and try harder and react faster to the sound, your audio gram will look better. Does Dr. Wilden have an incentive to show you a good audio gram? Yes. As I mentioned before I am a skeptic, I'll believe it when I see it myself. I'm not sure if it's possible to "fix" and audio gram, but I can tell you that Dr. Wilden is an old school Dr. and is not too technically savvy. He was born in 1949. He sometimes had trouble pressing all the right buttons to run my credit card through for payment. So I doubt he " fixed " it. Plus, I could tell after the 2nd or 3rd therapy that my hearing noticeably improved. I didn't need to audio gram to confirm that. So I am very convinced that his LLLT improved my hearing. I feel that I hear like I did 20 years ago. However my T is not gone. It is fluctuating though. I'm having spikes and lows. I'm hopeful that is the regenerative process in work and that an improvement in T will follow the improvement in hearing.
Blujay, what does he define as noise? I'm not sure there's an exact definition or not. But he encourages you to wear earplugs in the car on the drive home as well as out and about on the street. That's also one of the reasons he is so against hearing aids and maskers. If noise caused the problem in the first place then how will adding even more noise help? My suggestion is to avoid anyplace over 80 decibels.
Zechariah - the therapies cost 200 Euros per hour. His home laser machine is 2.660 Euros.
As far as the audio grams are concerned, yes I do have audio grams done at a hospital and not by Dr. Wilden a month before I visited Dr. Wilden. 2 of them in fact. They both only go up to 8mhz. They are both pretty close to what Dr. Wilden's first audio gram was. I don't have an after audio gram as my last therapy is tomorrow. I do however also feel that audio grams aren't an exact way to measure hearing. Only an approximation. If you listen more carefully and try harder and react faster to the sound, your audio gram will look better. Does Dr. Wilden have an incentive to show you a good audio gram? Yes. As I mentioned before I am a skeptic, I'll believe it when I see it myself. I'm not sure if it's possible to "fix" and audio gram, but I can tell you that Dr. Wilden is an old school Dr. and is not too technically savvy. He was born in 1949. He sometimes had trouble pressing all the right buttons to run my credit card through for payment. So I doubt he " fixed " it. Plus, I could tell after the 2nd or 3rd therapy that my hearing noticeably improved. I didn't need to audio gram to confirm that. So I am very convinced that his LLLT improved my hearing. I feel that I hear like I did 20 years ago. However my T is not gone. It is fluctuating though. I'm having spikes and lows. I'm hopeful that is the regenerative process in work and that an improvement in T will follow the improvement in hearing.
Tovega wrote:
"what does he define as noise? I'm not sure there's an exact definition or not. But he encourages you to wear earplugs in the car on the drive home as well as out and about on the street."
Just on the drive home, or all the time in the car? On the street for how long? Temporarily?
"what does he define as noise? I'm not sure there's an exact definition or not. But he encourages you to wear earplugs in the car on the drive home as well as out and about on the street."
Just on the drive home, or all the time in the car? On the street for how long? Temporarily?
Just as much as possible... the more you portect you ear cells the better. Just avoid any kind of noite as much as possible. As simple as that.
Without doubting the audiogram as such , its kind of likely that you will get a better one the second time , simply because you kind of know what to expect, besides , its not very precise to begin with.
If I was a 100% sure that your audiogram was precise I would be on a plane now , not for T , simply just to get better hearing.
If I was a 100% sure that your audiogram was precise I would be on a plane now , not for T , simply just to get better hearing.
Thanks for the info @TOVEGA.
I've now booked a 5 day treatment session at Anne's clinic in Norway between Jan 4th and 8th. I'm very skeptical, but keeping my fingers crossed something will improve. Wish me luck!
She's only €110 per day and I'm fairly sure she's using the Lucky Laser -machine for at least some of her treatment. Let's see what it brings.
I've now booked a 5 day treatment session at Anne's clinic in Norway between Jan 4th and 8th. I'm very skeptical, but keeping my fingers crossed something will improve. Wish me luck!
She's only €110 per day and I'm fairly sure she's using the Lucky Laser -machine for at least some of her treatment. Let's see what it brings.
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