Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Bobby B]

for someone with fairly recent acoustic trauma laser may work to some extent- but if you had hearing loss and T for over 3 years not sure..you may not be a good candidate for this I would think since they say that ears can heal for only up to a year.
And even if you get some db back on laser, the T may not change much overall as its already "engraved" into your brain that's why even the AM-101 is said to be not effective after a year.

I am not even expecting to cure or reduce my T on lasers - my primary goal was to get some db back at all cost...since T can be somewhat handled by the mind or masked when its quiet but hearing loss is hard to habituate and a serious handicap

 

[monacco]

Thanks !
Having said that if it would help my T 2600 Euro is cheap , but as it stands it seems thats highly debatable

be careful,you know that despair enriches the charlatans

 

[japongus]

Interesting PowerPoint presentation on LLLT for hyperacusis from the July 2015 International Conference on Hyperacusis (ICH2) in London by Otoclinica:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/463b0d_812559e099074a15aec228663ad47a52.pdf

A related link I posted earlier but adding it again because it goes along with the PowerPoint:

http://www.researchposters.com/Posters/AAOHNSF/AAO2014/SP327.pdf

Would be really interesting to hear about the experiences from anyone here on TTalk who has been treated for hyperacusis by Otoclinica.

I saw this jerk off do his mischief in the first person. Whenever he doesn't get a successful result on 'hyperacusis', he blames it on a 'misophonia' he has suddenly learned about during the course of treatment, and/or ludicrously tells the patient after the 'treatment' to put a greater effort at tolerating sounds in the discomfort sound test sound booth than he put in the first time. And who the hell wouldn't get wonderful results with those methods.

 

[lymebite]

@japongus

Did you do laser therapy at Otoclinica? Can you give more detail on the experience?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I went to Otoclinica during my acute phase hoping for laser therapy. I got an audiometry done to 8KHz with all the readings better than 25db, and they told me that I was not a good candidate for treatment. I mentioned that my problem was likely at higher frequencies than 8KHz, but it did not change their opinion.

 

[japongus]

@japongus

Did you do therapy at Otoclinica? Can you give more detail on the experience?

I went to Joaquin Prosper and talked at length with him about my symptoms, low pitched, high pitched ringing, and startle sound pain at the beginning. That didn't stop him though, and he charged me for a bunch of sessions nearly the full price it costs to buy the lucky laser itself from China. And as I said above, he moved the goal posts before and after the laser sessions on the audiometry readings, and after he suddenly discovered that startle sound pain but not prolonged pain is misophonia not hyperacusis, which is just a copy and paste from Jastreboff's dubious prose anyways, nothing he's discovered himself either. My experience was bloody terrible and a waste of money and time, and he seemed to me like a creep, like his daughter, I was outraged that they had this office in a Madrid high street for shit like that.

 

[japongus]

Clearly, to test the laser hypothesis I should have bought it straight from China, but I let myself be led on by his bullshit promises and my uncertainties on the quality of the lasers, and neither of my doubts had any substance whatsoever.

His final claim that it was misophonia not hyperacusis he did it so he could keep drawing those nice success charts with hyperacusis he draws. Not because of any doubt having been resolved about the difference between ''misophonia'' and hyperacusis, ie the possibility that it may be TTTS or hyperacusis, or that cortical excitement may be provoking both TTTS and cochlear painful dysfunction. It was really pathetic when he went for it and tried to prove the startle nature of my pain meant it was misophonia when the central gain could be startle-sound centered even if it is on the cochlea, even if it is just a phantom limb as a result of very narrow frequency range hearing loss (if that is even possible given how my two tinnituses are in a very narrow high and very narrow low pitched frequencies), otherwise I'd be getting my middle ear muscles cut in a heartbeat, but it isn't clear at all to me, let alone to him.

 

[japongus]

I went to Otoclinica during my acute phase hoping for laser therapy. I got an audiometry done to 8KHz with all the readings better than 25db, and they told me that I was not a good candidate for treatment. I mentioned that my problem was likely at higher frequencies than 8KHz, but it did not change their opinion.

You sure we're talking of the same otoclinica? I have perfect hearing on audiograms under and over 8khz and they still had me go through their 'treatment'. I had to discover the hard way that it was most possibly of no use whatsoever for my aetiology, by pointing out to him that he the supposedly successful patients he was pointing out to me all had vertigo.

Btw it's not clear of what use audiograms are if they're done by human audiologists. As far as I know my two ringings, a high pitched and low pitched might be of a very narrow frequency and could easily be hopped over and under by the manual audiologist doing the testing.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

@japongus

I am talking about the Otoclinica in Madrid (Spain). I was disappointed at the time since I was willing to try anything even if it was a long shot. Looking back, it does not matter. Most cases of T have no chances with current methodologies and treatments. We still live in the Stone Age of Medical Sciences.

 

[lymebite]

@FERNANDO GIL
@Bobby B

Here is a YouTube video posted by LaserLight on how to use the Lucky Laser. What do you think of this method?

 

[Bobby B]

this looks like an older version of the lucky laser
the new ones like I have are fitted with thin tips that can be placed deeper into the ear canal
Also, there is no way you can hold these with your hands sitting like the lady does without quickly getting tired. The metal tips are a bit heavy .
Fernando has loaded a pic where he lies on a pillow and uses some towels etc.. to place the tips at the correct position and just lie relaxing in bed

 

[lymebite]

@Bobby B, do you use safety goggles when using your laser? Do you have recommendations on brands / models? Do you need different goggles for different wavelengths? Thanks!

 

[Bobby B]

Yes I do use safety googles - got them off eBay and they cover those 2 wavelengths 650 and 808 . Green glass . Or just get some black googles to cover the side of your eyes.

This being said the lucky laser new model has thin tips that you stick deep into the ear so if your careful I don't see how you could hurt your eyes. I place them in the ears then hit the beam up button on the controller controller box which is timed so from there unless you move suddenly the tip stays put

 

[lymebite]

Laser-induced collagen remodeling and deposition within the basilar membrane of the mouse cochlea

This paper, from Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas, was published back in 2007, but I don't recall it being posted here on TTalk. While the laser therapy was done on mice rather than humans, it is rather interesting and may suggest why LLLT seems to help many people make improvements with their auditory issues.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651902/pdf/nihms447892.pdf

 

[Mithrandir]

I have a question for the experts of LLLT

@FERNANDO GIL
@attheedgeofscience
@Nick J.
@felinefine
and all I forgot...

Am I a good candidate ? (Acoustic trauma the 24th of september 2015, little mid noise exposure after the acoustic trauma)
On my audiograms, blue is for 0 to 8khz and red line for 9khz to 16khz

 

[lymebite]

Anyone from Croatia? This place offers inner ear LLLT in 28 different locations in a small country!

http://www.bontech.hr/en/tinnitus-therapy-at-half-the-price/

 

[Bobby B]

Interesting - they claim to have some satisfied clients going back for more sessions so there must be surely a few persons who responded well and felt tangible benefits .

As for me, I have been noticing a slow but steady softening of my t since I cranked up power of the 650mm probe to the max 120mw, doing 15 minutes both ears twice a day - morning 15 minutes before work then 15 minutes in the evening.

I didn't "hear " much happening at 80 or even 90mw

My t is now like a soft constant high pitched wind sound but noticeable quieter than 2 weeks ago .
A few hours after the session t actually Ramps up , sometimes waking me up in the night when I do the evening session but later in then morning it goes down further more so it's like a one step back and two step Forward kind of process.

I keep my fingers crossed and plan to do this for a full year throwing a 808nm session for 15 min every two days in between, as this is close to the frequency they used on those rats who got cochlear hair regeneration after acoustic trauma.

 

[Bobby B]

To give you guys a sense , I am always either wearing 30db shooting range ear muffs or ear plugs or even both when I am outside the house - all the time.

A month ago my t would be screaming at me inside my muffs like my head was stuck into an oven leaking gas all day long - horrible sound gave me headaches after a while - now it's like hearing a soft wind all the time , a lot nicer the sound is softer and more pleasant and I get no more of those left - right ear metallic wheel high pitched "zings" .
I am not expecting LLLT to cure my t since I had some before my last major trauma but a bit softer would be a huge help towards final habituation a make me a very happy camper

 

[japongus]

To give you guys a sense , I am always either wearing 30db shooting range ear muffs or ear plugs or even both when I am outside the house - all the time.

A month ago my t would be screaming at me inside my muffs like my head was stuck into an oven leaking gas all day long - horrible sound gave me headaches after a while - now it's like hearing a soft wind all the time , a lot nicer the sound is softer and more pleasant and I get no more of those left - right ear metallic wheel high pitched "zings" .
I am not expecting LLLT to cure my t since I had some before my last major trauma but a bit softer would be a huge help towards final habituation a make me a very happy camper

So you're saying you got tinnitus in november, maybe even late november, and in january it fell. therefore, maybe the lllt is placebo?

 

[Mithrandir]

@japongus Maybe yes, maybe no, so ?
Some studies showed lllt function, other said no.. did you try lllt ?

 

[Bobby B]

I didn't get much changes in January - the most changes I got was a since the 5 February once I cranked up the power to 120mw I cleary noticed my t to be softer and sounds are better too. The small gaps of Db I had between 3500 and 4500 hz seem to be filling back.
T is still there but it sounds better, more like a flat soft windy sound compared to a harsh loud hiss.

I can wear earmuffs for extended time and the sound does not bother me much although it's there.

Some studies show that becuase the cochlea is cast in bone and flesh the laser beam is actually weakened a lot by the time it reaches the cochlea that's why the human study they did - using only a very weak 7.5 mw for 4 minutes during one week only - is totally useless.

I think the issue wiht LLLT is that no large company could possibly make money because lasers are already made cheaply in millions in China and Taiwan so no one is interested in funding a large study using the actual same protocol that is used at the main laser clinics - over 120mw up to 500mw and several different wavelength and for a few months at least as it takes time.

Existing small laser unit manufacturers don't have the funds or investors for that again because they cannot patent lasers.

And perhaps those more powerful lasers which do produce results are too powerful to be sold to individuals due to regulations so that's another issue - even though the beam isn't focused to cause damage.

My main goal was to get improvement in Db lost to accoustic trauma using lasers so far I am hearing improvements.

 

[japongus]

@japongus Maybe yes, maybe no, so ?
Some studies showed lllt function, other said no.. did you try lllt ?

Yep I tried a couple hours total of lllt at a scammy local clinic... totally useless for me, and most probably for most of us

 

[Bobby B]

Yep I tried a couple hours total of lllt at a scammy local clinic... totally useless for me, and most probably for most of us

Yes but In your case the acoustic trauma and resulting T happened over a decade ago so LLLT won't work . LLLT just helps the body heal the ear better and faster than doing nothing. The body is doing the actual work .
But there are limits in time.


If the schock is over a year I doubt it's going to make any noticeable difference by then cells are dead and buried.

Not sure why you think you were scammed

 

[japongus]

Yes but In your case the acoustic trauma and resulting T happened over a decade ago so LLLT won't work . LLLT just helps the body heal the ear better and faster than doing nothing. The body is doing the actual work .
But there are limits in time.


If the schock is over a year I doubt it's going to make any noticeable difference by then cells are dead and buried.

Not sure why you think you were scammed

I was scammed on various levels.

The office was on a high street, offering a mysterious laser. But the laser can be bought for same price from China for the price of 2 hours of sessions. The guy, Joaquin Prosper, was raking in the cash on anything that had a commission, such as the tinnitool or neuromonics, and had a ridiculous study in his office based on a sample of one patient to prove the former worked.

Also, you, or Wilden, don't have monopoly on the definition of hyperacusis. Hyperacusis isn't even a diagnosis, given how polemical a term it is. It's really just a symptom. Nobody right now knows if sound sensitivity is from underdiagnosed middle ear myoclonus, weird etd issues, or from hair cells in the cochlea, or from central gain in the brain, or a combination of two or three of these. Wilden shows laziness or opportunism by fueling his energy into claiming that sound sensitivity comes from the cochlea, maybe a very small etiology does, and maybe none does and its all placebo, nobody knows right now.

 

[Bobby B]

All I am saying is that the window of opportunity to get some hearing Db back is about a year at most

beyond that nothing is going to work well and even if you happen to get Some minor Db back by miracle , the t itself may not change much anymore as its already engraved in the brain by then

That's the current knowledge we have so far
.Again I am not sure why you feel scammed

Did the clinic promised results even though the damage was done 10 years ago ?

 

[Mithrandir]

@ japongus I'm grateful for you ! Thanks to give us your hopeless point of view What do you advise me, kill myself ?

 

[Reinier]

If the schock is over a year I doubt it's going to make any noticeable difference by then cells are dead and buried.

Is this a fact? I will be interested to find out if the different clinics will tell you this when you ask for a session.
I still am interested in this therapy for my hyperacusis. I can not see how it will help my hearing loss, but if I do one session which yields a difference in my hyperacusis I would be less convinced that LLLT is not able to improve hearing loss.
Perhaps let it coincide with a one week holiday in Norway, Spain or Ibiza?
I would love to go to Spain, but my Spanish unfortunately is not good enough to explain and understand.

 

[japongus]

@ japongus I'm grateful for you ! Thanks to give us your hopeless point of view What do you advise me, kill myself ?

Why am I the hopeless one? I would've thought the hopeless one would be the Formentera scuba diver Wilden, I do research and dedicate tons of hours to see what the fapongus this is and I am completely undecided. But stinky ass scams stink of banana a million miles away.

 

[Mithrandir]

@japongus
@Bobby B
@FERNANDO GIL

I will tell you, I've bought the home spa luxe laser, I've just receive it by the post. I'm trying it for the first time...
I feel the warm in my ears (more again in the most hurt)... Is it normal ? good sign, or not ?

 

[lymebite]

@Mithrandir

I have a Konftec laser and the laser diodes heat up when turned on (they are warm to the touch) and then transfer heat to the ears, making them feel warm (in a pleasant way). The instructions for the Konftec say this is normal.