Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Bobby B]

Regarding the angle to point the tip - this is important becuase the beam is narrow and you can miss the cochlea and get no result perhaps that explain some lack of results .

I found that my angle is about at 180 degrees flat from the front of the face and slightly angled to the back of the head seeing from above .

Everyone is built a bit different and the cochlea may be at a different location/angle

How is found the angle is as follows : on the lucky laser you have two wavelengths, 650 and 808nm. 808 is closer to warming water and gives out heat to the cochlea as its filled with a watery liquid .

I used a higher power setting like 350mw and tried various angles. The angle where the cochlea is hit is the one that's gives some vertigo or head / vision spinning - like being really drunk and lying in bed wiht the ceiling spinning or just having balance issue when standing right after the session .

So my advice would be to try and note different angles for short times - like 3min , stop and check for vertigo by standing up - while using higher power setting - don't go over 400nm - and find out which angle gives vertigo then dial back the power down a lot until you have no vertigo.

Anne told me that you need to lower power if you have vertigo .

650nm does not give me vertigo

 

[Bobby B]

Here is another interesting LLLT study on eardrum healing - am 101 and LLLT could be a good combo

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ic_membrane_perforation_repair_in_guinea_pigs

 

[Reinier]

Did someone read the full Harvard Study?

What I understand is, tests are done soon after damage in the cochlea was induced. When cells are getting damaged because of oxidation etc...
I so much would like to have it any other way

 

[Mithrandir]

Like all the things for the ears "acute phase", "just after damage", etc.. but by the way I imagine, researchers work (only ?) in acute phase...
Some example showed AM-101 work in late phase, Trobalt work several years after, LLLT work several years after...so don't desperate !

 

[bell]

Something must be happening because the sound quality has been improving a lot for me recently - tinnitus hasn't disappeared yet but sound is better that's an improvement after 3 months of LLLT[/QUOTE]

That´s great @Bobby B !

 

[bell]

Hello guys, keep on sharing my experiences with you. As you know I` m near to 2 months with the theraphy, I use Lux -Spa from Wilden and I also feel some improvements.
I think is is not only a feeling, my reasons are that I have been wearing hearing aids for 3 years and since 2 weeks they don`t help me as they distort sounds and it is impossible for me to hear with them , and so it`s been for 2 weeks that I `m living without my hearing aids as they are no comfortable for me.

I feel great, very very great for that, as the feeling of hearing with my own ears , no metalic sounds but only my own ears ...is something thay I like.
So I feel nervous as I dont want it to be only a "dream" and I know that the moment of checking my hearing is coming...... but.....if nothing has changed and it is only the power of my mind?
I have to be strong and make my first audiogram ... I fear that moment as I have many hopes in the therapy but.....what if I make an audiogram and nothing has changed?
It will be tomorrow that I will have a date with my ENT to make the fist audiogram after treatment.
For sure It will be impossible for me to sleep tonight.
Fingers cross!

 

[Bobby B]

That sound very good - yes the audio gram can be tricky sometimes we are are a bit slow to react and press the button So that the Db can be worse than it is in real life

I listen to music - the same songs i am used to and try to note how the sound quality changes , how music feels becuase the changes are subtle and it takes time.

Also I wear ear muffs pretty much all the time outside - Peltor x5a they are the best - I am trying to note how I hear outside sounds vs my tinnitus which is another parameter to judge

 

[Bobby B]

Also - what is clear to me is that laser did improve the small dips I had between what the audio gram is testing .

That's where the sound quality improved I think .
The big loss of 35db at 4khz is perhaps a bit better but becuase the damage is extensive it may be hard to fix realistically .
The smaller dips along the scale are easier to fix and those aren't picked up by the audio gram .
The best is to use a frequency sweep app or simply go to the general fuzz site on PC speakers at low volume and slide the scale and take note of how the small dips improve over time .
They make music sound better, smoother when they improve.

 

[Reinier]

my reasons are that I have been wearing hearing aids for 3 years and since 2 weeks they don`t help me as they distort sounds and it is impossible for me to hear with them

Exactly the reason why I believe a hearing aid will not improve my hard of hearing. Some normal level sounds already distort in my most affected ear. Amplifying sound in this ear will be counter-productive. Unfortunately

 

[jdjd09]

Can someone please link to the company that sells lucky lasers and how you bought the laser? Also, how long did it take to get to the USA?

I want to make sure I'm contacting the right company and asking for the right product.

 

[lymebite]

Can someone please link to the company that sells lucky lasers and how you bought the laser? Also, how long did it take to get to the USA?

Here is the laser, there is a choice of the 2 probe model for $1,600 or the 4 probe model for $2,100. Shipping is additional. It takes a couple weeks.

http://www.lucky-laser.com/productview.php?id=LK-COMBI

To purchase one, contact Lulu at:

luckylaser@vip.163.com

 

[Bobby B]

four probes is for doing both ears at the same time - which is usually advised to avoid potential dizziness even though some people only want to treat one ear.

Frankly, unless you other ear is perfect I find that lying in bed doing nothing for 15 minus besides listening to my tinnitus seems quite long already, so for the price difference I'd suggest the two probes unless you are on a super tight budget.

15min x 365 days is over 90 hours - that's what the 500 USD more buys you in practice.

 

[medal]

four probes is for doing both ears at the same time - which is usually advised to avoid potential dizziness even though some people only want to treat one ear.

Frankly, unless you other ear is perfect I find that lying in bed doing nothing for 15 minus besides listening to my tinnitus seems quite long already, so for the price difference I'd suggest the two probes unless you are on a super tight budget.

15min x 365 days is over 90 hours - that's what the 500 USD more buys you in practice.

Sorry deleted my last post because I though that should be the case, though thanks for your reply on this.
Do you get a manual with the laser how to set it up? What's the deal with putting it in and behind your ear for example? I just need to lie on bed and put the laser in my ear? i reckon you need to use some form of correct aiming? I know I should prob visit dr wilden first but thought it would be a good idea to buy the laser in the meantime.

 

[Bobby B]

Doc Wilden has a much bigger one that he can setup based on photos or reports from people who went there - maybe they can shine more light (!) on his setup...

I haven't been there because I live too far away and don't have much vacation time.

With the lucky you just get a simple online manual because the actual operation of the device is very simple - the manual does not explain how to use it on your body etc.. hence we share info here.

I wrote a few things earlier on this thread on how to get the right angle - get a good cup of coffee and have a long read

I put two pillows on both sides of my head to get to the right height into ears, then use light colored towels/tee-shirts under the probes so they don't slip too much and lie on the back of my head with probe tips halfway into the ear canal and hands slightly holdings the end of the probes in case they would fall deep into the ear and hit the eardrum - or put a rubber spacer on the base of tip to stop at the right depth

Dark clothing or dark long hair close to the ear will get hot very quickly on the 650nm

The bone behind the ear is too thick to let much laser pass though - the aim is to do it though the hole in the skull where the ear canal is, but maybe on the 808 at more power it may work although I haven't tried yet.

I sometime lighlty move the angle a bit to cover the area around the cochlea but the probes weight lies down on the towels

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Happy
LLLT is working fo some of you guys, remember it takes time.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

View attachment 9653 My new laser system by Irradia of Sweden. Fitted with two 904 nm 240 mW multi-probes. Not for inner ear phototherapy (wrong type of tips and shuts off after 5 minutes), but thanks to this thread I have learned a lot about lasers in general and will use this one for running injuries (the type of tips and the 5 minute timer are well-suited to help with running marathons for many years). The build quality of this system is impressive - seems to be built like a tank. Much thanks to @FERNANDO GIL, @attheedgeofscience, @Bobby B, @Philip83, and many others for all the information posted.

Anne use that one as well. Behind the ear. But yu must check with profissional how to use propoely. That is really power LLLT. Do take care. Don´t do anything without help from a LLLT professional.

 

[Bobby B]

@ Fernando Gil

Well most of us don't have any LLLT professionals available to help us - at least the ones who know anything about inner ear ...

Can you please give us more info about exactly could happen if too much power is applied ? I know about vertigo or headaches, ear pressure but those are only temporary and only a minor issue

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@ Fernando Gil

Well most of us don't have any LLLT professionals available to help us - at least the ones who know anything about inner ear ...

Can you please give us more info about exactly could happen if too much power is applied ? I know about vertigo or headaches, ear pressure but those are only temporary and only a minor issue

Not that I do know much more, but to much LLLT power can do "burn" your cells. Whem i´m going to Anne i make one hour straight with 909, but i know is pulsed, the exact values i don´t have excactly. And those are the values that someone with more experience should have . Concerning Lucky Laser I said that in the 808 you should not use it above 400 Mw direct in your ear, but time is diferent from person to person.
But i already put @limebyte in contact with Anne so she can help and give all info need it how to use the lasers.
Hope they chat already via skype. Is the best I can do to help and avoid any possible problems.

 

[Bobby B]

@FERNANDO GIL
you wrote you did 808nm at 600mw pulsed - was it inside the ear and for how long ?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@FERNANDO GIL
you wrote you did 808nm at 600mw pulsed - was it inside the ear and for how long ?

Yes, but only for 15 minuts, was during the time Lucky laser was with some defeca anos was only working pulsed.
But now only do it behind the ears, but very few time.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

"one hour straight with 909" - it should be 904 by Irradia same aslimebyte showed. Sorry.

 

[BohemianLife]

Hi I am 19 years old and i am suffering from hearing loss because of ototoxicity since i was 3. I am waiting gene therapy and stem cell cures.Now, i saw LLLT and i have some questions. 1- İs this therapy have side effect(Specially in other frequences) ? 2- İs this therapy working on ototoxic hearing loss ?
Sorry for my inadequate English but i will be happy if you answer my questions. ( Please answer simple language )

 

[Bobby B]

Here is an interesting and recent study which covers two things:

-How much near infrared (NIR) light can penetrate through bones/skin - in the case of doing it on the skull behind the ears

-The mechanisms of NIR Light on cells

https://www.dovepress.com/near-infr...therapy-ef-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-NDT

Clearly, low power settings don't seem penetrate skin or bone at all.

@FERNANDO GIL
You would have to use over 10,000mw to be able to pass 2-3 % of this energy through a 3cm bone layer - 600 mw isn't getting anywhere near the cochlea

Under 10,000mw nothing gets there

Which was also my feeling when I tried a powerful NIR hospital grade device at various spots

 

[Christian78]

Hi I am 19 years old and i am suffering from hearing loss because of ototoxicity since i was 3. I am waiting gene therapy and stem cell cures.Now, i saw LLLT and i have some questions. 1- İs this therapy have side effect(Specially in other frequences) ? 2- İs this therapy working on ototoxic hearing loss ?
Sorry for my inadequate English but i will be happy if you answer my questions. ( Please answer simple language )

As i notice doctors that i communicate with keep away from LLLT, it is more of a prank.

 

[BohemianLife]

@Christian78
I forecasted that but i just wondered. My teenage is being ruined. I hope real treatments come soon

 

[Poyraz]

Is this working for acute Tinnitus?

 

[Christian78]

@Christian78
I forecasted that but i just wondered. My teenage is being ruined. I hope real treatments come soon

I got information that LLLT has no effect, and that there is some effect maybe on these new. I tried trobalt and got 4 months tinnitus free but i was like drunk all the time and my brain was useless. I don't see any medicine really coming for chronic tinnitus.

@Poyraz I need to say after 3 months tinnitus become chronic they say, there are those injections AM-101 but they have to be taken as soon as possible, and there is those corticosteroids that are like 48h but mostly for acoustic damage.


Brain is so complex. I said the day I got tinnitus my life was ended. If it is low t you get used to it, but t also progress during time, i seen it on myself and on others. Some say protect what is left of your hearing cells, other say have hearing aid, what i know then never check up real hearing problem and that is high freq 8kHz-20Khz where tinnitus comes from... but they admit those are freq where tinnitus come from

 

[Bobby B]

LLLT isn't really a T treatment/cure

I would try to find out the underlying cause of your tinnitus first - since you wrote unknown - then plan to tackle it based on what is causing it

 

[BohemianLife]

@Christian78
İ dont have tinnitus problem . İ just have hearing loss. Some results indicate LLLT fixed some frequences. Maybe i can try this

 

[Bobby B]

no one knows - fixing something that broke 15 years ago in the body ins't going to be easy.

Maybe contact Wilden and see what he thinks

What drug did cause it ? what happened ?