Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[GregCA]

rather unusual to have such damage at low frequencies -what exactly is the cause of the damage ?

Where do you see damage to the low frequencies? Isn't the drop in the 2kHz-4kHz range?

 

[LJMD]

good stuff!

rather unusual to have such damage at low frequencies -what exactly is the cause of the damage ?

Well the audiogram reads like a 'classic' NIHL pattern, so I'm thinking that (I've been exposed to a lot of loud environments over the years).

This is apart from the dip at 1.5k, which the audiologist said is unusual. So, I've taken ototoxic medication, could be a hereditary factor, but honestly who knows which of these!

The main things is I'm definitely continuing with LLLT, and hoping for further improvement. I haven't ruled out stem cell therapy also, but that's another matter entirely.

LJ.

 

[Marko Nakovski]

Hello Im new to this forum. I have seen people argue about Dr Wilden. Somebody say that helped them, somebody say zero effectf.Im planing go to dr Wilden or to better say Im planing to use his device. What I dont know is what is better. To go there in his office and use the lasers or order some device for home ? I know that lasers in his device are way more powerfull then the lasers for home but I was thinking that maybe its better to use that devices for home for longer period then using lasers at his office for just 10 days. Also Im curious about the length of the period of tinnitus. SOme people say that the longer time someone have tinnitus its even more harder to cure it or have some relief. Someone say that permanent or chronic phase is after 6 months so that means that Im still in the acute phase ? Does that maybe means for example that I will have even greater chances for success by using LLLT beacuse I dont have tinnitus that much long. I was curious about these things beacuse if this is true then maybe I should try with these lasers when I still have bigger chances. If its not important maybe its better to try some cheaper things . If someone can help me about these matters it will be big help for me. Thanks

 

[jer]

Please let us know the results you find by either using dr Wildens at home device or through the visits at his office.

 

[Anima]

Hello Im new to this forum. I have seen people argue about Dr Wilden. Somebody say that helped them, somebody say zero effectf.Im planing go to dr Wilden or to better say Im planing to use his device. What I dont know is what is better. To go there in his office and use the lasers or order some device for home ? I know that lasers in his device are way more powerfull then the lasers for home but I was thinking that maybe its better to use that devices for home for longer period then using lasers at his office for just 10 days. Also Im curious about the length of the period of tinnitus. SOme people say that the longer time someone have tinnitus its even more harder to cure it or have some relief. Someone say that permanent or chronic phase is after 6 months so that means that Im still in the acute phase ? Does that maybe means for example that I will have even greater chances for success by using LLLT beacuse I dont have tinnitus that much long. I was curious about these things beacuse if this is true then maybe I should try with these lasers when I still have bigger chances. If its not important maybe its better to try some cheaper things . If someone can help me about these matters it will be big help for me. Thanks

I'm a former patient of Dr. Wilden. I went to his clinic in Germany every six months during three consecutive years and I never got any better. On the phone, he affirmed that his treatment would cure my tinntius and would also greatly improve my hearing. My tinnitus and hearing loss remained the same after all. There were many other Spaniards getting treatment at the same time as me, and non of them got any better neither. It's a very expensive treatment with zero results, I tell you. The home laser is terribly expensive, and, for what I've read here, the results are poor to say the less, as it couldn't be otherwise. But it's your money, probably you should try it to convince yourself. I was desperate, like you probably are now too, and I wanted to believe him. People's desperation is always good business for quacks. Good luck if you try. I wish you well, Marko.

 

[Horizon]

I am having LLLT (not from Dr Wilden) and I am finding it very helpful.

I had tinnitus for over a year before I started treatment so I would say you have time to take a few days to think about your options.

I recently bought two different LLLT devices so that I can treat myself at home.

There are a lot of laser devices for sale and to compare them properly you need to know the wavelength, the power output and ideally the Joules / sq cm / second.

I looked at Dr Wilden's laser on line and I could not see the figures I wanted for a comparison with other devices.

Does he tell you how powerful the lasers he uses in his clinic are?

I am no expert but from my reading I think it is the wavelength that is crucial, the power determines how long you have to use them for.

 

[Marko Nakovski]

Thanksor your replies.So like always, whatever I read there is different results from either dr Wilder laser, lucky laser or whatever other product or medication.I believe that every person have some potential relief for tinnitus but the problem is that everybody needs to find it and somebody have success with the first option he tries and somebody needs even years to discover. The point is they are very expensive to try them all.I have seen somebody try AM 101 and have relief, somebody from lasers and somebody from Clinic in London offering some smart device which you use it overnight and in day there is some relief in the next day.But how to try them all.These lasers are over 2500 euro, even more.This LEVO product from this clinic in London is 4500 euro. Also AM-101 is expensive as well I supposse.Right now I will order red light 830 Device LED laser. Its not so expensive, its 200 euros and from what have I seen at different posts it seems like one of the most powerfull lasers for that price and maybe even more powerfull then Dr Wilden lasers.Somebody say LED is better others say otherwise so I think to try the cheapest opitons first.When I will order it i will use sometime, maybe 1 or 2 months then I will write here again to tell you the results.

 

[Horizon]

830 LED is good and safe. Be patient with it if you don't notice any change at first keep going with it, it won't do you any harm. The light will activate the cells in your body, if you give your body everything it needs to heal itself that will help the light be more effective. I get better results when I do everything I can think of to be as healthy as possible. Diet, exercise, supplements, eliminate stress, alcohol, sugar etc. etc.
I hope it helps you as much as it has helped me.

 

[jer]

@Horizon what if you mean with that you for find it helpful?

 

[Horizon]

Tinnitus, hyperacusis, pains in head, neck and ears, pressure in ears and head. All much reduced, I am now able to do far more than I could before. I was a mess, life was not worth living - now I feel human again.

 

[Bobby B]

@Anima
You wrote you are 70 years old and had tinnitus since 2004 -based on the scientific studies with LLLT way too much time has passed since onset for LT to have any effect, not to mention the age issue ..


Your T is not due to noise exposure you mention Benzo as a cause ?

LT is a valid treatment to get some improvement - not a cure but some improvement - provided the only cause is cleary a damage inside the ear and treatment has been started at the acute stage which is within a few days or weeks

It does not work for chronic tinnitus

 

[Marko Nakovski]

@Horizon Tnx for the info man. I will order and try it.I dont expect miracles but i think that in some time maybe I can get some relief.I also go in the gym but I do take lot of sugars in me, i take protein and gainers beacuse i want to gain some mass in the gym.I also go at nightclubs only for 30 minutes, beacuse when I go more then this next 5 days are hell but I will go no more.. I have silicon ear protection but it doenst helps that much if the music is very loud. What have I discovered is that actually my sleeping play big part in my tinnitus. Everythime i sleep well without waking up very often my T is little calmer. Or when I wake up after 7 hours and I snooze the alarm very often its so much worse. Also when I sleep at afternoon its much worse.Only thing Im not sure is alcohol. Some people say they have relief from alcohol but thats maybe only in the moment, im not really sure about long term benefits.I will keep you inform about the laser .

 

[jer]

@Horizon bobby b says that light therapy only works for the acute stage. How long did you have tinnitus before you started with LLLT? @Bobby B why do you say that? What is your source/reference?

 

[Anima]

@Anima
You wrote you are 70 years old and had tinnitus since 2004 -based on the scientific studies with LLLT way too much time has passed since onset for LT to have any effect, not to mention the age issue ..


Your T is not due to noise exposure you mention Benzo as a cause ?

LT is a valid treatment to get some improvement - not a cure but some improvement - provided the only cause is cleary a damage inside the ear and treatment has been started at the acute stage which is within a few days or weeks

It does not work for chronic tinnitus

Bobby, I got in touch with Dr. Wilden a few days after my tinnitus onset, only a week had passed when I first got my first treatment. I was 57 years old. During the next three years, I went on getting the same 10 days treatment every six month, that means aeroplanes, taxis, trains and two weeks stay in a hotel full pension every time. Lots of money and time wasted, and lots of lies too. The cause of my T was a treatment with Metronidazol (Flagyl) during two weeks time, prescribed by a stupid young doctor who had unfortunately replaced my GP for a while. Dr. Wilden never said that his therapy would only provide me some improvement. Do you think that I would have expended a fortune and travelled so far away for just "some improvement"? I was supposed to get my tinnitus cured and my hearing loss reduced according to Dr. Wilden's words. Why do you think I travelled to Germany so many times, just for fun? By the way, he never said that his therapy was only valid for acute problems. Does he say so now?

 

[Paulmanlike]

Bobby, I got in touch with Dr. Wilden a few days after my tinnitus onset, only a week had passed when I first got my first treatment. I was 57 years old. During the next three years, I went on getting the same 10 days treatment every six month, that means aeroplanes, taxis, trains and two weeks stay in a hotel full pension every time. Lots of money and time wasted, and lots of lies too. The cause of my T was a treatment with Metronidazol (Flagyl) during two weeks time, prescribed by a stupid young doctor who had unfortunately replaced my GP for a while. Dr. Wilden never said that his therapy would only provide me some improvement. Do you think that I would have expended a fortune and travelled so far away for just "some improvement"? I was supposed to get my tinnitus cured and my hearing loss reduced according to Dr. Wilden's words. Why do you think I travelled to Germany so many times, just for fun? By the way, he never said that his therapy was only valid for acute problems. Does he say so now?

I remember reading in 2008 about a girl who had a similar experience and she got in touch with a lot of other patients of his who all reported ZERO benefit.

If he really able to cure tinnitus it would be headline news, i don't understand how this guy is still going!

 

[Bobby B]

@Anima
Ok so you got his treatment 13 years ago then - that was not Clear from your first post ... what was the power of the laser he used ?

I believe he used a very Lower powered device back then - different than what is being used now

Did you also go for a course of steroids back then ? This is standard procedure for ototoxic meds

 

[Anima]

@Anima
Ok so you got his treatment 13 years ago then - that was not Clear from your first post ... what was the power of the laser he used ?

I believe he used a very Lower powered device back then - different than what is being used now

Did you also go for a course of steroids back then ? This is standard procedure for ototoxic meds

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

I don't remember about the power of the lasers, but it's not true that he used low power devices. Read the following that I've taken from here: lllt - laser therapy -. Laser Therapy (LLLT) science many LLLT abstracts


"Promising results using LLLT for tinnitus and inner ear diseases Auris Nasus Larynx. 1997; 24 (1): 39-42.
Shiomi et al. used a 40 mW GaAlAs laser in a group of 38 patients suffering from tinnitus, resistant to several medical therapies for more than six months. 21.6 J was given each time through the auditory meatus toward the cochlea. Ten treatments or more were given. Only 26% of the patients reported improved duration, but 58% had reductiont of loudness and 55% reduced annoyance. The authors conclude: "Laser therapy seemed to be worth trying on patients with intractable tinnitus". Editorial note: The results can be improved if much higher doses are given. Dr. Lutz Wilden of Bad Füssing, Germany reported on his 6 years of experience at a recent lecture before the members of the Swedish Laser Medical Society (Stockholm, May 1998). Dr. Wilden is using three different lasers. One is directed through the meatus, two are positioned over the mastoid. Total dosage 2000-4000 (sic) joules per treatment (60 minutes per session, 30 minutes per ear). Doses may seem very high, but the thick bone behind the ear absorbs about 95% of the energy before reaching the inner ear. For more info, see http://home.t-online.de/gbl-hc/ez.”

I've been told that he is exactly giving the same treatment in Ibiza as he did in Germany in 2004.

About the steroids, I never got any course because I wasn't offered it and I didn't even know this procedure existed. It is a standard procedure now, Bobby, but it was not a current treatment in those days, so you simply didn't get it in the hospitals here. Anyway, I don't think steroids would have done much for my ears, may be for an acoustic trauma will work sometimes, but surely that won't for an antibiotic related ototoxicity.

 

[Paulmanlike]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my first post.

I don't remember about the power of the lasers, but it's not true that he used low power devices. Read the following that I've taken from here: lllt - laser therapy -. Laser Therapy (LLLT) science many LLLT abstracts


"Promising results using LLLT for tinnitus and inner ear diseases Auris Nasus Larynx. 1997; 24 (1): 39-42.
Shiomi et al. used a 40 mW GaAlAs laser in a group of 38 patients suffering from tinnitus, resistant to several medical therapies for more than six months. 21.6 J was given each time through the auditory meatus toward the cochlea. Ten treatments or more were given. Only 26% of the patients reported improved duration, but 58% had reductiont of loudness and 55% reduced annoyance. The authors conclude: "Laser therapy seemed to be worth trying on patients with intractable tinnitus". Editorial note: The results can be improved if much higher doses are given. Dr. Lutz Wilden of Bad Füssing, Germany reported on his 6 years of experience at a recent lecture before the members of the Swedish Laser Medical Society (Stockholm, May 1998). Dr. Wilden is using three different lasers. One is directed through the meatus, two are positioned over the mastoid. Total dosage 2000-4000 (sic) joules per treatment (60 minutes per session, 30 minutes per ear). Doses may seem very high, but the thick bone behind the ear absorbs about 95% of the energy before reaching the inner ear. For more info, see http://home.t-online.de/gbl-hc/ez.”

I've been told that he is exactly giving the same treatment in Ibiza as he did in Germany in 2004.

About the steroids, I never got any course because I wasn't offered it and I didn't even know this procedure existed. It is a standard procedure now, Bobby, but it was not a current treatment in those days, so you simply didn't get it in the hospitals here. Anyway, I don't think steroids would have done much for my ears, may be for an acoustic trauma will work sometimes, but surely that won't for an antibiotic related ototoxicity.

What reason did he give you why it never worked?

 

[Horizon]

@jer Just over a year

 

[Bobby B]

@Anima

This is a study of 1999

Metronidazole ototoxicity--report of two cases.
Iqbal SM, et al. J Laryngol Otol. 1999.
Show full citation
Abstract
Two cases of bilateral moderate to severe sensorineural hearing loss due to oral administration of metronidazole are reported. There has been only one case report of deafness following metronidazole therapy in the world literature. The hearing loss recovered gradually in a period of four to six weeks following withdrawal of drug and oral steroid therapy. The possible mechanism of ototoxicity is discussed. Awareness by the treating physician of ototoxicity due to any drug is stressed.

 

[Bobby B]

And as far as the laser therapy goes - like in the study only a portion of people report some improvements - this is not 100% guaranteed to work

I got some improvements - especially for H and hearing quality and a bit of T reduction of loudness similarly to the results of the above study

I did not go to Wilden - I chooses this therapy because it can be done comfortably at home at relatively low cost now, with the availability of very cheap but high power IR LED.

 

[jer]

@Bobby B what laser are you using and what strength. I might be interested in doing this myself, but I don't want to make any mistakes that cause me more problems than I already have!

Also, how long can you wait for a course of steroids after a case of ear damage by ototoxicity? I did not know you could do this, and I had my last damage from this about 6 weeks ago. Is there a specific course of steroids that they use?

 

[Bobby B]

Steroids - like LT only work well when done very early on . Don't wait

 

[Anima]

What reason did he give you why it never worked?

He didn't know what to say really, he believes so much in what he is doing that he had no words to explain why it fails. It was a long time ago and I vaguely remember it, just that we had an argument in his office after he said he was sorry, but I should assume that it was my fault because he never forced me to get new treatments after the first one failed, then I reminded him that he kept telling me that sometimes years of treatment are needed to get rid of tinnitus and to improve the hearing loss. Finally, to make things easier because I was very annoyed with what I was hearing and he was obviously pretty embarrassed, he changed his attitude and apologised for not stopping me to going back so many times to his office in despite that no significant improvement from the very first treatment had been achieved. That was it, more or less. A refund never was offered to me, but I didn't expected it either. Finally, thousands of wasted euros for me, good business for him.

 

[Anima]

@Anima

This is a study of 1999

Metronidazole ototoxicity--report of two cases.
Iqbal SM, et al. J Laryngol Otol. 1999.
Show full citation
Abstract
Two cases of bilateral moderate to severe sensorineural hearing loss due to oral administration of metronidazole are reported. There has been only one case report of deafness following metronidazole therapy in the world literature. The hearing loss recovered gradually in a period of four to six weeks following withdrawal of drug and oral steroid therapy. The possible mechanism of ototoxicity is discussed. Awareness by the treating physician of ototoxicity due to any drug is stressed.

EN" lang="EN">

You can find more information than just that if you do a search about Metronidazole ototoxicity. In the Spanish leaflet of Flagyl (Brand name) : https://www.aemps.gob.es/cima/dochtml/p/35034/Prospecto_35034.html you can read this:


Trastornos del oído y del laberinto: frecuencia no conocida: audición alterada/pérdida de audición (incluyendo neurosensorial), tinnitus (pitidos en el oído).

(Ear and labyrinth disorders, frequency not known: hearing impaired/ hearing loss (neurosensorial included), tinnitus (ear ringing).)

Taking Metronidazol is la playing Russian Roulette. I wish I had known.

 

[Anima]

@Bobby B what laser are you using and what strength. I might be interested in doing this myself, but I don't want to make any mistakes that cause me more problems than I already have!

Also, how long can you wait for a course of steroids after a case of ear damage by ototoxicity? I did not know you could do this, and I had my last damage from this about 6 weeks ago. Is there a specific course of steroids that they use?

Your condition can get worse too if the steroids are injected through the ear drum. Talk about it to your doctor and don't run any risk after six weeks time.

 

[jer]

Thank you very much. You are right, that seems a bit much now after 6 weeks time. Can't you also do a course of oral steroids for this?

 

[Anima]

Thank you very much. You are right, that seems a bit much now after 6 weeks time. Can't you also do a course of oral steroids for this?

Yes, oral is fine, although minor side effects can be expected. Talk to your doctor, you can give a try and see what happens. In my case, I went to see one of the best ENT here one month after my Tinnitus became severe again in April because of a medical procedure with anaesthesia, and he suggested to inject my eardrum with steroids. I asked him if it was risky and he said to me: "You never know after a month, it can get better or it can get worst." And he added: "When you flip a coin, you know the theoretical probabilities for heads and tails". I was terrified when I heard this and I refused and I didn't want to go oral neither because of my gastritis and also, in my case, the expectations were minimal, as the doctor explained to me. I wish you good luck if you try it.

 

[Marko Nakovski]

@Bobby B do you use this device ?
https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-830-device/

 

[Bobby B]

I have this device at home but it's useless for ears - the beam is too wide and weak, the device is heavy and bulky and there is a noisy fan inside so it wont work against the ear
The best way is to order a small 20w 850nm led online , a heat sink and a power source and that's it - it's also going to be even cheaper
Led are very cheap