Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[maria-ambia]

I started a laser therapy 3 weeks ago, and I feel my ears burning, and beat as if my heart was there. It is too demanding but I was wishing to know if it truly shows results.

 

[1000]

I started a laser therapy 3 weeks ago, and I feel my ears burning, and beat as if my heart was there. It is too demanding but I was wishing to know if it truly shows results.

What type of laser?

 

[lymebite]

A new clinical trial planned in the United States for LLLT to treat tinnitus.

InnerScope Hearing Technologies Inc. & Erchonia Corporation to Conduct FDA Clinical Trial for the Treatment of Tinnitus

InnerScope and Erchonia have entered into Joint Development & Exclusive Distribution Agreements and intend to obtain a 510k FDA-Clearance via clinical trial to study the effect on using Erchonia's Low-Level Laser Therapy Technology for the relief of tinnitus symptoms

https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...kWMvoqrgm6Kul1iWCgg_hnoDLFB19NZXWOUeic9SWTVzE

 

[briano]

Hi All,
After 2 years of use, I'm ready to sell my Wilden laser. I feel like it has helped me as much as it can. If interested, please feel free to contact me.

 

[Frédéric]

A new clinical trial planned in the United States for LLLT to treat tinnitus.

InnerScope Hearing Technologies Inc. & Erchonia Corporation to Conduct FDA Clinical Trial for the Treatment of Tinnitus

InnerScope and Erchonia have entered into Joint Development & Exclusive Distribution Agreements and intend to obtain a 510k FDA-Clearance via clinical trial to study the effect on using Erchonia's Low-Level Laser Therapy Technology for the relief of tinnitus symptoms

https://globenewswire.com/news-rele...kWMvoqrgm6Kul1iWCgg_hnoDLFB19NZXWOUeic9SWTVzE

It is weird since Erchonia withdrew a former trial. See:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...therapy-and-tinnitus-relief.1345/#post-275860

But it's so much better that they resumed their studies

 

[Steve Crim]

I was attracted to this forum after running across a couple of threads on LLLT for tinnitus. From what I can tell here, there is no consensus on its value for tinnitus or hearing loss.

I guess what I am asking is, could those people who have tried it say whether it actually worked for tinnitus or hearing loss or both? This forum is filled with people whose opinion would be far more valuable to me than current or past studies on LLLT or infrared Therapy.

Please forgive me for being new and blunt but could the people who have had success with LLLT please say so and maybe explain a little. And could the people who have not had success please say so and explain a little.

I have seen one study out of the University of South Florida that say's it warrants a deeper dive but it's more that 10 years old with no apparent follow-up.

 

[Red]

Or hyperacusis.

 

[GregCA]

I was attracted to this forum after running across a couple of threads on LLLT for tinnitus. From what I can tell here, there is no consensus on its value for tinnitus or hearing loss.

I guess what I am asking is, could those people who have tried it say whether it actually worked for tinnitus or hearing loss or both? This forum is filled with people whose opinion would be far more valuable to me than current or past studies on LLLT or infrared Therapy.

Please forgive me for being new and blunt but could the people who have had success with LLLT please say so and maybe explain a little. And could the people who have not had success please say so and explain a little.

I have seen one study out of the University of South Florida that say's it warrants a deeper dive but it's more that 10 years old with no apparent follow-up.

If you search the forum, you will find a lot of feedback about LLLT with various degrees of detail.

 

[Steve Crim]

Yes - that is what prompted me to post - there are a lot of posts on LLLT - in fact so much that it's virtually impossible to tell what's really going on. Some quote studies while others provide information about one light or another. Most of the people responding seem to have never tried LLLT but have an opinion. I am hoping this thread will develop into a series of "yes it did work" or "no it didn't work" with some details.

If LLLT works for tinnitus or hearing loss there are people here who can say - yep it worked for me and here is my experience or no it didn't and here is my experience.

 

[Shin]

I got tinnitus 2 years ago due to withdrawal of the anxiety medicine. I purchased a new LUCKY laser combi and applied the tool for a while. My tinnitus situation gets much better nowadays, however I am not so sure it is due to LLLT or because my anxiety wears off. I am considering to sell my LUCKY laser in very cheap price, if anyone interested, pls PM me.

 

[Arseny]

Hello everyone,

I have found a local clinic that can perform LLLT both on my ears, around my ears and intravenous. But they can't do it deep inside my ear canal
I have attached the pictures of the laser itself.
They can do a 360 nm, 630 nm, and 890 nm laser treatments. They said they can turn it up to 80-100 milliwatt.
I guess I should go for a 630 nm one?
Could anyone please check out is it a right type of laser? Should I do it intravenous too?
I'm 1.5 months in, origin is unknown although it seems to have been aggravated my noise exposure from an MRI machine (with hearing protection).
Can this treatment help in my case?

Thank you.

 

[GregCA]

I have found a local clinic that can perform LLLT both on my ears, around my ears and intravenous.

How does intravenous LLLT work? I don't picture what gets poked where and where the light is supposed to shine.

 

[Arseny]

How does intravenous LLLT work? I don't picture what gets poked where and where the light is supposed to shine.

I'm not very educated in this topic. Apparently it supposed to have all kinds of benefits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_irradiation_therapy

 

[GregCA]

I'm not very educated in this topic. Apparently it supposed to have all kinds of benefits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_irradiation_therapy
View attachment 24357

OK yeah I have seen this before, but I'm not sure how applicable it is in the context of hearing restoration.

If I'm not mistaken, LLLT for hearing relies on having light energy reach the cells in the cochlea. This here is a completely different procedure. It may have benefits (and that is already highly questionable), but that's something different from "LLLT for hearing/tinnitus" as you see it mentioned around here. I don't see how the light shining in the arm is going to make its way to the cochlea.

 

[Arseny]

OK yeah I have seen this before, but I'm not sure how applicable it is in the context of hearing restoration.

If I'm not mistaken, LLLT for hearing relies on having light energy reach the cells in the cochlea. This here is a completely different procedure. It may have benefits (and that is already highly questionable), but that's something different from "LLLT for hearing/tinnitus" as you see it mentioned around here. I don't see how the light shining in the arm is going to make its way to the cochlea.

Hey Greg,
I've been to a state clinic today and they said that they sometimes use the laser (not intravenous, but external light into the ear) to treat otitis. They said it was unnecessary in my case, but allowed it. I will try to start the procedures tomorrow and report back with the results. I also noticed that I may have TTTS in my left ear. I hope it helps with that too.

 

[lymebite]

David Rindge, an LLLT clinician in Melbourne, Florida has a web page that includes a few photos of patients receiving LLLT therapy for ear disorders and gives an overview of the theory and some studies.

http://cooperativemedicine.com/laser-therapy/ear-disorders/

 

[Arseny]

David Rindge, an LLLT clinician in Melbourne, Florida has a web page that includes a few photos of patients receiving LLLT therapy for ear disorders and gives an overview of the theory and some studies.

http://cooperativemedicine.com/laser-therapy/ear-disorders/

Is this type of laser is adequate enough for ear treatment?
I found several clinics in my city that have lasers, but they don't have attachments that can be placed directly inside the ear canal like on the website you mentioned.
They can stick it as close as possible to my ear canal and place additional laser behind my ear, but they can't insert it inside like an earbud.

Also if anybody knows, is there any significant difference between 630 nm and 650 nm light?
From what I understand the clinic in my city has this different attachments, but they are only at 630 nm and 890 nm.

From information on the website mentioned above and from this thread it seems that I should be getting 650 nm light, but not 630 nm or 810 nm.

Does this mean that the treatment won't be as effective or there is no significant difference?

 

[lymebite]

Is this type of laser is adequate enough for ear treatment?

In general, the reason they put the LLLT devices in the ears is because the cochlea is encased in thick bone and with the light source right up against the ear drum it does not have to penetrate the bone.

But, some wavelengths of light will penetrate bone. In one of his research papers, Profeseor Michael Hamblin of Harvard Medical School says 830 wavelength will penetrate the skull and then about 40 cm deep into the brain. So this wavelength probably would penetrate the bone surrounding the cochlea.

My understanding is that wavelengths around 630 or 650 do not penetrate much, wavelengths in that range tend to be used more for things like skin conditions.

 

[Arseny]

In general, the reason they put the LLLT devices in the ears is because the cochlea is encased in thick bone and with the light source right up against the ear drum it does not have to penetrate the bone.

But, some wavelengths of light will penetrate bone. In one of his research papers, Profeseor Michael Hamblin of Harvard Medical School says 830 wavelength will penetrate the skull and then about 40 cm deep into the brain. So this wavelength probably would penetrate the bone surrounding the cochlea.

My understanding is that wavelengths around 630 or 650 do not penetrate much, wavelengths in that range tend to be used more for things like skin conditions.

Thank you for your answer.
So if doctors can make the laser shine directly on my eardrum the laser has potential to work?

I will research the topic of penetration and get back to you with information.
Mean while I saw this link http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Auricular_Laser_Comparison.htm
It compares the lasers and from what I understand Dr. Wilden's laser is at 658 nm and people have positive results with his device. Does this mean that 630 nm has potential too? Does the ~30 nm difference has impact on the treatment efficacy?

Or should I go for 890 nm laser, because 810 nm has more ability to penetrate the bone??
Does the wavelength makes a lot of difference in it's healing ability or most of the wavelengths have the same efficacy, but differ only in the penetrability?

 

[lymebite]

@Arseny those are all very good questions. I don't really have good answers because there has been very limited research on LLLT for hearing disorders.

The only comments I feel I can offer with some degree of confidence is that for light in the 600s range, it probably needs to be right up against the eardrum because it will not penetrate bone well. But light in the 800s range probably can reach the cochlea without being up against the eardrum, though it loses intensity as it travels through the bone. So a longer treatment time would be needed if going through bone than if right up against the eardrum.

Also, nobody really knows what wavelengths the cells are "looking for" to get the best response. 630 versus 650, 810 versus 830, I am not sure there is good info on that. But it is interesting to note about LASER LLLT versus LED LLLT. With laser, it emits the exact frequency. So if you have a 630 laser, 630 is exactly what you get. No 629 and no 631.

But with LED LLLT, you get a lot of "bleed" into nearby frequencies. So if you have a 630 LED, you get it centered on 630, but you also get some less than 630 and some more than 630. So this might actually be helpful in terms of cell response - LED is somewhat more "natural" in terms of providing more wavelengths, such as the sun provides.

 

[Arseny]

@lymebite thank you for your input.
I have found some interesting information.
It seems that lasers have significantly more power to penetrate through tissues than LED. And the laser must be in 10-15 w range.
I'll add more information when I finish reading.

• Ex vivo human skin was utilized to study transmission of NIR photonic energy (Table 2, Figure 2). The Custom 0.05 W 810 nm LED did not appear to penetrate 1.9 mm of human skin. The commercial 0.2 W 650/880 nm In Light LED system delivered 0.01±0.002 W across 2 mm of air. No energy could be detected penetrating the 1.9 mm thickness of human skin with this device. Energy from the 10 W combined 810/980 nm infrared laser could be detected penetrating 1.9 mm of human skin and a power density drop of 89% across 1.9 mm of human skin was noted with 0.994 W penetrating the tissue. The 15 W 810 nm laser demonstrated an 83% drop in power density across a similar thickness of human skin with 2.008 W penetrating the tissue. The 15 W 980 nm laser was not tested on human skin. Photonic energy penetration of the two laser devices was statistically different from that of any LED device (which showed no photonic energy transmission through human skin). Penetration of human skin also was statistically different between the two laser devices (P<0.000005).
• Ex vivo studies of NIR penetration through fresh lamb skin revealed a marked decrease in power density through a skin thickness of only 2 mm (Table 1). The Custom 50 mW 810 nm LED did not appear to penetrate 2 mm of skin. Similarly, the commercial 0.2 W 650/800 nm LED system (In Light) did not show any detectable energy penetrating the 2 mm of sheep skin. When compared to the power density of penetration through 2 mm of air, the 6 W LED of wavelength 670/970 nm had an approximately 12%–20% penetration, predominately in the red light range of 670 nm. The 10 W combined 810/980 nm infrared laser (LiteCure) showed a power density drop of 91% across 2 mm of skin. The 15 W 810 nm laser (Diowave) demonstrated a 67% drop in power density, while the 15 W 980 nm laser (Diowave) demonstrated an 86% drop in power density across the same thickness of skin. All of these levels of penetration were statistically significant compared to the LED systems.

Also regarding 890 nm laser:

• For example, Lavery et al15 demonstrated that LLLT (890 nm LEDs delivering 1.3 J/cm2 for 40 minutes daily for 90 days) did not yield significant improvement in nerve conduction velocity in patients with diabetic neuropathy. Similarly, treatment of a rat model of contusive spinal cord injury with LLLT (830 nm at 22.6 J/cm2 or 670 nm at 28.4 J/cm2) for 30 minutes per day for 5 days resulted in no significant functional improvement and no reduction in lesion size.16

633 nm LED:

• For example, the first published study of NIR therapy for TBI in humans described two cases of chronic mild TBI with significant disability.100 Each patient had marked neuropsychological improvement after a prolonged series of LLLT treatments using 870 and 633 nm LED arrays over 4–72 months.

https://www.dovepress.com/near-infr...therapy-ef-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-NDT

 

[Coleoptere]

I do not date to apply a 10-15 watt laser on my ears. I think you do not need to penetrate 3 cm's of tissue to reach the inner ear but I can be wrong

 

[missingsilence]

Hi! Currently looking to get a laser, considering the Konftec 660nm and 808nm. I heard some people say only the Wilden laser has had good results. Considering the Konftec is 60mW (vs. 50mW of the Lux Spa laser) and has the same wavelength it should be just as if not more effective. The only question would be at which angle the Konftec laser comes out, the Wilden is 60 degrees.

@briano would you be willing to post a photo of your Wilden laser beam on a sheet of paper?
Could someone with a Konftec do the same?

Really at a loss here at which to buy

 

[humptydumpty69]

I am checking back in here, I don't remember if I or anyone else ever posted this here:

https://www.thorlaser.com/dosage/

For all of you LLLT seekers, this link has a "Research" tab at the top center of the page. You have to give them your email, but all of their PDFs are great literature for LLLT, especially when that can be difficult to find.

I posted here awhile ago, documenting my LLLT experiences; I would reiterate to anyone new that clinical grade laser was far superior to any home laser you are considering.

I will also repost this link:

https://celasers.com/medical/for-patients/

At the bottom of the link's page, there is is a tool that searches the proximity of registered MLS lasers, clinical grade lasers which use a comparable spectrum and power output to Dr. Wilden's clinical laser.

 

[humptydumpty69]

@Arseny,

My concern for your clinic is not the nanometer as much as the power output. 100 milliwatts is nothing. I had 3 watts (which is 3,000 milliwatts) 1 inch from my ear for half an hour in each ear. This definitely helped, but because of the precariousness of my scenario, I reinjured.

I think that the intravenous laser is very intriguing, and I would love to try it; though I don't imagine it will help much with the ears, especially without some form of cardio enabling the blood to more efficiently find its way to the site.

 

[Lane]

@humptydumpty69 -- Just got done reading most your insightful posts from when you first started posting on this thread, and found them to be almost jaw-dropping. I want to thank you (profusely) you for the detailed reports you made. I'm short on time at the moment, but anticipate getting back to this thread again soon.

Based on your posts, I thought you might be interested to know I have used DMSO extensively for the past several years, and have gotten a variety of good results from using it. I believe it will eventually be found to have important therapeutic value for various types of tinnitus. But they'll never research it, because there's no money to be made.

I'm currently applying it to my ears on a regular basis, as two of its main effects are they it reduces inflammation and improves circulation. -- For now, I'll leave you with links to two threads on this forum--in case you hadn't seen them. -- Thanks again!

BTW, DMSO is incredibly effective for so many things. On top of that, its safety profile is almost unbelievable. I've long believed that if was patentable, it would be scooped up by the pharmaceutical companies, and would likely very quickly become the top selling "drug" in the world.

1. 
   Dimethyl Sulfoxide Therapy in Subjective Tinnitus of Unknown Origin
   Thread by: Rune B, Aug 15, 2017, 17 replies, in forum: Research News
2. 
   Dimethyl Sulfoxide Therapy in Subjective Tinnitus of Unknown Origin
   Thread by: Lupo, Mar 14, 2015, 8 replies, in forum: Research News

And for good measure: -- https://www.drdavidwilliams.com/stop-ringing-in-the-ears-dmso

and... -- Sodium Thiosulfate — "May" Help w/ Hearing Loss and/or Tinnitus

 

[humptydumpty69]

I have been reading through my previous posts here, and there are some remarks that I would like to make in addition:

It seems that I dropped off in my accounts of therapy, and I would like to give some resolution. I spoke a bit of Ozone therapy, and I would like to state that Ozone did very little for my ears. I can recall one account of fleeting tinnitus or an "ear reset" while undergoing ear insufflation, which is administered via an earscope. The Ozone is slightly pressurized in to the ears, and therefore some O3 escapes the orafaces; Ozone fumes are not to be inhaled, which made this a cumbersome process. I would use fans in front of my face during a therapy session, and sit next to an open window. The whole room and floor of my home smelled of O3, and I was forced to extensively venellate during and after each session. For an unrelated ailment regarding auto-immunity, I can say that I experienced benefits from rectal insufflation, but nothing for the ears. I did Ozone in conjunction with both home and clinical laser therapy.

However, I can say that I had a decent amount of success with Oxygen therapy. At month 9 of my injury onset, I purchased a used oxygen concentrator for 250 USD; and I ran about 100 feet of cannula so as to create distance between myself and the low hum of the machine. My concentrator maxes out at 5 LPMs, though I chose to dose 3 LPMs as to lessen the high pitch whisp of air through the cannula which penetrated my muffs. I would do this therapy about once a day for 45 minutes to 1.5 hours while continuing to utilize my 50 mW home lasers. I noticed "ear resets" the first day of usage, and these persisted in to the furthering of my treatment. My hearing was much more tolerable, but unfortunately I reinjured soon after my initial progress due to noise exposure. ATEOS' stem cell clinic in Bangkok utilized oxygen therapy in tandem with LLLT, and I use this fact as affirmation that oxygen would not have been nearly as effective without the laser.

After my reinjury, I did not have as much progress with oxygen. As to enable the poor oto-vasuclar infrastructure, my chiropractor suggested that I try aerobic exercise while employing the oxygen concentrator. I began to run for 45 minutes, at 5 MPH while wearing my cannula at 5 LPM. I did this while simultaneously beginning a new supplement which I found helpful and very affordable, "Acetylcysteine" or "NAC"; I ingested 600 mg, 3 times a day (morning, noon, and night). At first, outfitted with muffs and plugs, every stride that I pounded in to the treadmill reverberated throughout my skull. My ears were extremely fatigued after a session, and I elected to purchase an indoor stationary bike. Unfortunately, I could not get my heart rate high enough on the bike for what I felt was ideal; I have tried to maintain as close as possible to 170 BPM, though I fall short of that often; so I resolved to continue running. After a couple of weeks, with not a huge detriment to my hearing aside from chronic fatigue, I managed to pass a threshold in to some tolerance of sound. In conjunction with LLLT, I continue this aerobix/oxygen therapy 4 times a week to this day, January 5, 2019. Currently, I am able to take out my ear plugs and hold a 20 or so minute conversation in quiet conditions; I have some texture of sound improved, ringing is lesser and I can discern some environmental sounds of silence, I can better descern consonants which are spoken to me through my ear muffs; in general my ears are incrementally stronger.

I realize that there are criticisms of oxygen therapy, and that some who caution are concerned with oxygen toxicity; though I can say confidently that I have experienced zero detriment provoked by either LLLT or Oxygen. I have read that without a hermetic mask, the percentage of oxygen one intakes is far less than the percentage of output claimed by the machine's manufacturer. My machine outputs 90-96 percent pure O2, and as I inhale some air from around the cannula's prongs, I may be intaking a small fraction of the concentrator's output percentage; which leads me to believe that O2 toxicity is an even less likely possibility. I am curious about wearing not a hermetic mask, but a mask that could provide slightly more pure intake than a cannula; perhaps I will experiment with this in the future.

I wish anyone well who is perusing this thread with anxiety, and hope that my anecdotes aid them in some way.

Sincerely,

Humpty Dumpty

 

[missingsilence]

On my 8th day of using a Konftec 650nm 50mw laser I noticed my right ear would vibrate. It's been 4 days and I can still feel my eardrum vibrating. I feel it in my head and hear the low frequency it emits.

I first noticed this immediately after I took out the laser plugs that day.

Can a laser cause tonic tensor typani syndrome or MEM tinnitus?

 

[humptydumpty69]

On my 8th day of using a Konftec 650nm 50mw laser I noticed my right ear would vibrate. It's been 4 days and I can still feel my eardrum vibrating. I feel it in my head and hear the low frequency it emits.

I first noticed this immediately after I took out the laser plugs that day.

Can a laser cause tonic tensor typani syndrome or MEM tinnitus?

Are there triggers for the vibration? Certain frequencies that cause it? Is it constant vibration? Is it accompanied with a twitching sensation?

The low frequency that the vibration emits, is that a pitch that you have been able to perceive previous to laser therapy, when the pitch has been produced by the environment? Do you have any low frequency damage?

Have you continued or discontinued laser therapy after the anomaly occurred?

You feel the vibration in your head? Or the frequency that it emits resonating in your head? It is your head that you feel it in, or it is the ear, adjacent to your head? If it is the head, where specifically in your head?

 

[missingsilence]

Are there triggers for the vibration? Certain frequencies that cause it? Is it constant vibration? Is it accompanied with a twitching sensation?

The low frequency that the vibration emits, is that a pitch that you have been able to perceive previous to laser therapy, when the pitch has been produced by the environment? Do you have any low frequency damage?

Have you continued or discontinued laser therapy after the anomaly occurred?

You feel the vibration in your head? Or the frequency that it emits resonating in your head? It is your head that you feel it in, or it is the ear, adjacent to your head? If it is the head, where specifically in your head?

The vibration started for the very first time after my 8th laser session of 18 minutes 650nm Konftec laser. It is only in my right ear and as far as I'm aware I have no low frequency damage. I also had no sound exposure or medication recently.

I feel the vibration very specifically in my right ear. I have suspended the laser when it started. The day it started I had the laser module inserted relatively deep inside the ear.

Could a laser cause something like this? My left ear is fine, my right ear is on its 5th day of vibrating.