Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Nick J.]

Hey Nick J.
How did you get your Tinnitus?
I see that you had it for 24 years? That is some serious time.
If you are getting better it's good to know that after such a long time of suffering, you are on the mend.

Hi

It startet as a kid playing with fireworks and then 8 years in the army shooting all kinds of high explosive and driving noisy tanks, plus normal living...clubbing when younger ect.
So most of my life i had it, but only notice it in quiet places or when i started thinking about it.
5 month ago i started getting cricketnoises in my right ear also, but very faint.
Then 2 month ago, i was invited to a concert and forgot earplugs and was to damn lazy to go back home getting them cuz of the heat in Malta where i live ATM.
The music was crazy loud and ppl had to scream each other in the ears to talk. We where at that point a bit drunk and the rest is history.
Then 10 days after out of nowhere, this high pitch very high tinnitus hit me and i got panickattack, heartburn and after a few days i started having suicide thoughts.
I was in a really bad shape for about a week or two, until i got my shit together and started searching for treatments.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Its funny that a guy like him, is so closed minded in regards to other alternative treatments, when closed minded is exactly was he is so fustrated about other people beeing towards the LLLT.
I respect what he is doing and that he have kept on doing this for all these years.
Because i have no doubt in my mind, that he have and still are taking alot of heat from all the ENT's sueing him and what not. And companys koping his Laser and take credit for his studies and so on.
In my mind, he is like one of those mad scientist u see in movies and that he is so caught up in his own little world and work, that it leaves no room for thinking outside the box or look into things that might help the patient along with the use of lasers!
In his mind, only the laser will help. Nothing else!!!
Not even taking strong vitamins or eating heathy had any effect...only the laser!
I had some pretty heated discussions with him in the beginning, about different stuff and soon realized it was not worth it. Cuz we where both equally stubbern about our view on things.
So i just gave it a rest and then everything was fine.

I think its a good idea to go try Anna.
She is doing things a bit different and do other lasertreatment. So that might just start some regeneration in another area of the ear maybe...who knows.

I just had the last treatment at Wilden today and will now let my ears rest for about a week to take most of the spike away from the tinnitus and then see how it is.
But i must say, that those 2000€ was well spent.
The pain in my ears has left and did so after day 3 i think.
I also had a feeling of deafness in the left ear, like if u cover your ear with your hand.
This was like 50% after like 4 session and it feels like its gone completly now.
My tinnitus before was so high, that i could walk beside a busy highway with trucks and busses tailing each other and still hear it loud and clear.
I also had different noises going on and have lost 2/3 of them now
Back is just this high pitch rusty wind blowing kind of sound and even if thats bad anough, it still feels like its fading also. Its sounds a bit like if u are out swimming and put your head under water and u hear the sound from the engine of a boat, or the propellar i might add. Most probably knows this sound. Really thin high pitch and after treatment it spikes and becomes deeper and louder obv.
But this to me is amazing after just 10 sessions. So i ended up buying the MLS from him, cuz so many says good things about it.
Im in a casino ATM writing this. But will post new audiogram later and in a month i will get a audiogram from the same ENT i went to before going to ibiza.

Happy it worked.
Very nice, let´s hope for the future.

Fernando

 

[Katarina]

yes, fingers crossed. I so hope the treatment will give you permanent relief (and us more hope).

Now, I will repeat one question here - repeating it only because I have understood that for me, this is the only question (or rather the answer to it) that matters. Is there ANYONE who has seen their Tinitus (hyperacusis or hearing) PERMANENTLY worsen on account of LLLT?

If you or anyone you know has experienced this worsening, please let me know. I have a week to decide whether or not to try LLLT and I do not wish to take ANY risks.

K.

 

[Nick J.]

yes, fingers crossed. I so hope the treatment will give you permanent relief (and us more hope).

Now, I will repeat one question here - repeating it only because I have understood that for me, this is the only question (or rather the answer to it) that matters. Is there ANYONE who has seen their Tinitus (hyperacusis or hearing) PERMANENTLY worsen on account of LLLT?

If you or anyone you know has experienced this worsening, please let me know. I have a week to decide whether or not to try LLLT and I do not wish to take ANY risks.

K.

Thanks
Yaa i hope over time i can accomplish what hansi cross did! That would be the goal.


If u get treated by a proff, then its not really possible the thing u fear!
Its like beeing affraid of going out in the sun, because u think your sun tan is gonna stay forever afterwards or maybe even keep going up after u stopped sunbathing.
Just not possible from what i know by now and what Wilden have told me.
You are just providing more energi to the cells and then the become more active and this makes the spike in tinnitus and when u stop giving this boost of energi, then the activity of course will slow down and the tinnitus will go back to normal state or more likely a bit lower, since your hearing improves from this boost of energi for the regeneration.
You are also asking the wrong question!
Why are u trying to find a excuse not to get treated?
If u really want some one to tell u are story the heard about a guy that knew a woman whos parants had a son that maybe had a permanent worsening after LLLT, then just let me know.
I can try google a scary story for you, so u have an escape goat.
There are many ppl on this forum that had some degree of positive reaction from LLLT and the rest is just saying its a scam and does not work.
So i have no clue as to why u wonna search for this one person out of 1000 that can tell u something bad.
You can find bad stories from people taking vitamins, sleeping pill or panodils or drinking water.

Write a mail to Wilden like i told u before!
These questions is best suited for someone like him to answer!

 

[Katarina]

The reason why I am looking for the "scary story" as you put it is because I have 2 very bad experiences with doctors/treatments. The impact of at least one of those treatments could have been avoided had I done my research beforehand. Had I known that there was a risk of getting worse (and there was - many have experienced what I did), I would not have had that treatment. But I did not know. Noone warned me. It was only after it happened and I started looking into it, that I realized ...

This is why I want to know clearly the potential risks as well as the benefits. That way I can make am informed decision. But those who "sell" or offer a treatment - at least in my country - often do not lay the bare facts, for whatever reason.

This is why I read other people's stories.

 

[Katarina]

I will not email Wilden - there are 2 specialists in my country who use laser and I will contact them for their opinions. They offer laser treatments via state funded health system, so I trust that they will not want to "sell" me stuff at all costs.

 

[Nick J.]

The reason why I am looking for the "scary story" as you put it is because I have 2 very bad experiences with doctors/treatments. The impact of at least one of those treatments could have been avoided had I done my research beforehand. Had I known that there was a risk of getting worse (and there was - many have experienced what I did), I would not have had that treatment. But I did not know. Noone warned me. It was only after it happened and I started looking into it, that I realized ...

This is why I want to know clearly the potential risks as well as the benefits. That way I can make am informed decision. But those who "sell" or offer a treatment - at least in my country - often do not lay the bare facts, for whatever reason.

This is why I read other people's stories.

Im sorry to hear that and i get that.
But this is not a drug/pill made from a company or a surgery.
This is a natural proces of stimulating the cells in your body, just like when u go out in the sun!
With the correct lasers, u can not do any harm, since the cells in your body will only react like the are programmed to do and the are not gonna gather around a table and make up a plan to hurt u
U are just providing them with energy, just like u do with other cells when u have a meal.
Had it been something non natural, then i could understand u would be worried!
The worst thing that can happen, is that nothing will happen!

 

[Carloflogical]

Hey Fernando,

How did you get your Tinnitus, apologies if you have already explained this in an earlier thread.
There is so much to read on here.

Regards,

Carl.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hey Fernando,

How did you get your Tinnitus, apologies if you have already explained this in an earlier thread.
There is so much to read on here.

Regards,

Carl.

Ototoxic
I got it after am ear infection, I was in Indonesia and fro sure some bad antibiotic. I got from a local pharmacy.

Fernando

 

[dboy]

I have greatly renewed interest in this topic after the recent positive reports of Fernando Gil and Nick J. Thanks very much for taking the time to report so effectively your experiences and I hope you continue to experience improvements.

Unfortunately having recently done a lot of work on our house I am not currently in a position to spend 3000 euros on this so am wondering whether any cheaper options for home treatment might still be effective. I recall mention of a pen type device purchased by @attheedgeofscience from Dr Wilden and am very keen to hear more about that. ATEOS, are you getting any positive results yet or is it too soon to say?

It does seem that a range of other LLLT devices are out there with decent mW output, albeit not designed specifically for use in the ear. Several (for things like hair loss or slimming) are listed on that popular auction site, although obviously it is wise to be cautious about spending large sums there. But perhaps Dr W is adding a heavy mark up on his home lasers to cover consultation time over the course of a long treatment? And perhaps such consultation is less essential with the treatment experiences described here to draw upon?

I guess I am fishing for any thoughts or experiences relevant to trying to find a more affordable way to experience relief via LLLT. Obviously the Konftec is not well thought of, but has anybody tried any other units, or even looked at something that they thought might be promising?

Thanks in advance.

 

[dboy]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-Level-C...n-Syndrome-Pain-Pattern-LNH-One-/221579362696?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compurised-...r-Advanced-Software-LCD-Display-/161349474129

The above are two examples of cheaper lasers. The prices are tempting, although obviously there is a big chance that they do not do as claimed and you might even wake up to find mushrooms growing out of your ears or some such effect. Obviously these cannot work, or there would be loads of ebay sellers with Nobel prizes... wouldn't there?

 

[Jeff Berman]

Has anyone had success using low energy laser therapy, such as the Tinnitool, offered by a company in Switzerland?

 

[dboy]

Jeff, the consensus is that the tinnitool is too low powered to do any real good. It is rated 5mW. Those I linked to above are rated more in the region of ones that a few people have experienced success with (50mW; 100mW), but of course them being sold on eBay for so much less than other versions makes me suspicious that the rating (or something else about them) is not the real deal.

I'm hoping that there is a laser out there that works for our ears and does not cost as much as Dr. W's MLS though. Any input from those with any experience or insight would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Jeff, your tinnitus is recent? If you are in the UK then the AM101 trial looks promising for you.

 

[Jay M]

I have greatly renewed interest in this topic after the recent positive reports of Fernando Gil and Nick J. Thanks very much for taking the time to report so effectively your experiences and I hope you continue to experience improvements.

Unfortunately having recently done a lot of work on our house I am not currently in a position to spend 3000 euros on this so am wondering whether any cheaper options for home treatment might still be effective. I recall mention of a pen type device purchased by @attheedgeofscience from Dr Wilden and am very keen to hear more about that. ATEOS, are you getting any positive results yet or is it too soon to say?

It does seem that a range of other LLLT devices are out there with decent mW output, albeit not designed specifically for use in the ear. Several (for things like hair loss or slimming) are listed on that popular auction site, although obviously it is wise to be cautious about spending large sums there. But perhaps Dr W is adding a heavy mark up on his home lasers to cover consultation time over the course of a long treatment? And perhaps such consultation is less essential with the treatment experiences described here to draw upon?

I guess I am fishing for any thoughts or experiences relevant to trying to find a more affordable way to experience relief via LLLT. Obviously the Konftec is not well thought of, but has anybody tried any other units, or even looked at something that they thought might be promising?

Thanks in advance.

Your "more affordable" route is likely to end up as another failed attempt at LLLT. This money is a better investment than any home improvement.

 

[dboy]

Your "more affordable" route is likely to end up as another failed attempt at LLLT. This money is a better investment than any home improvement.

Indeed, I am quite aware that what you say may be true - as my posts indicate. It sounds as though you have personal experience but I don't remember your post(s). Could you summarise or direct me where to look?

 

[awbw8]

Im sorry to hear that and i get that.
But this is not a drug/pill made from a company or a surgery.
This is a natural proces of stimulating the cells in your body, just like when u go out in the sun!
With the correct lasers, u can not do any harm, since the cells in your body will only react like the are programmed to do and the are not gonna gather around a table and make up a plan to hurt u
U are just providing them with energy, just like u do with other cells when u have a meal.
Had it been something non natural, then i could understand u would be worried!
The worst thing that can happen, is that nothing will happen!

I have no comment on LLLT, but your sun analogy is not accurate. Extended sun exposure has been shown to alter the DNA of your skin (not for the better) and causes lasting damage, some of which only appears when you're older. Maybe the lasers work as Nick J says and are harmless (don't know), but then they aren't like the sun.

@Katarina hats off to you for doing your research. For what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone being damaged by this kind of thing, though I've never heard of it curing tinnitus either.

Good luck and I hope you have great results with whatever you try!

 

[Nick J.]

I have no comment on LLLT, but your sun analogy is not accurate. Extended sun exposure has been shown to alter the DNA of your skin (not for the better) and causes lasting damage, some of which only appears when you're older. Maybe the lasers work as Nick J says and are harmless (don't know), but then they aren't like the sun.

@Katarina hats off to you for doing your research. For what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone being damaged by this kind of thing, though I've never heard of it curing tinnitus either.

Good luck and I hope you have great results with whatever you try!

My sun analogy makes perfect sense!
You stimulate specific cells in the skin to make vitamin D when u are out in the sun and in the case of the earcells and the use of LLLT, u stimulate them to produce ATP which is speeding up the healingprocess.
Are u also correcting people who tells you water is the best source to hydrate the body, since consuming wast amount in one setting can kill you??
What about vitamins? Cant really live without them and to much of vitamin C can kill you.

I dont really have patience to cut everything out in paper when im writing.
I expect people can read between the lines and think for them selfs.
Im obv. Being pretty naive on the last part.
But hey...im no way near perfect. Just doing my best to pass on the info i got from doctor Wilden and if thats not good anough, then i still adwise people to write him themselfs.

 

[awbw8]

Hi @Nick J. , I didn't mean to offend you. I was just pointing out that the sun is both useful and potentially hazardous even in "healthy" doses over the long term. I know very little about LLLT, but if your analogy really holds, then lasers can both harm and heal in the same breath - maybe we haven't studied this long enough to know. It's just something to think about. The person who asked you seemed nervous, I was just presenting a perhaps more cautionary perspective. Maybe that's unnecessary, but it's a forum, I just shared my two cents.

I do apologize if I upset you, I wasn't trying to start a petty argument. I could have worded my post in a more diplomatic manner.

 

[Nick J.]

Hi @Nick J. , I didn't mean to offend you. I was just pointing out that the sun is both useful and potentially hazardous even in "healthy" doses over the long term. I know very little about LLLT, but if your analogy really holds, then lasers can both harm and heal in the same breath - maybe we haven't studied this long enough to know. It's just something to think about. The person who asked you seemed nervous, I was just presenting a perhaps more cautionary perspective. Maybe that's unnecessary, but it's a forum, I just shared my two cents.

I do apologize if I upset you, I wasn't trying to start a petty argument. I could have worded my post in a more diplomatic manner.

Apologize accepted and returned.
I dont hold the best diplomatic skills myself at times.
I will not comment on this any further, since i dont see the value.
LLLT is nothing knew. People can look up its potential from the last 40 years or so of use.
Plenty of scientific studies out there.
Those who are open minded and put in the time to do there own research, will possibly benefit from this.
The rest will have to live without and end up with another solution, like praying every night maybe.
I just dont believe in any god.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@Katarina hats off to you for doing your research. For what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone being damaged by this kind of thing, though I've never heard of it curing tinnitus either.

@Katarina is doing it right, if she get someone that could help without having to spend a lot of money going to Dr Wilden, good for her.

Now the point is if they know what they are doing?

LLLT is completely safe, but if used as to much can be bad as any other testament .

A few points I discover lately.

The size of the wavelength is as much important as the power of the device.
The power you can pretty much go around, using it during more time or less time.

The wavelength is what will make the diference on which part of the cochlea will be treated.

The smaller the wavelength more deep it goes in our body, the bigger the wavelength it will work more on the surface.

Our low tones in the cochlea are "far inside" than the high frequencies ( we are talking about in an organ that is only 1,5cm) that are are on the "beginning" of the cochlea .

Starting the treatment with the use of 600 nm will fix your low frequencies, but to "fix" the high frequencies you will need to go to some high wavelength. As Sam said in her blog after a wille using the MLS was not doing nothing for the high frequencies.

Hope @Katarina finds the right persons to mak et the treatment saving some money.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Low-Level-C...n-Syndrome-Pain-Pattern-LNH-One-/221579362696?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Compurised-...r-Advanced-Software-LCD-Display-/161349474129

The above are two examples of cheaper lasers. The prices are tempting, although obviously there is a big chance that they do not do as claimed and you might even wake up to find mushrooms growing out of your ears or some such effect. Obviously these cannot work, or there would be loads of ebay sellers with Nobel prizes... wouldn't there?

From INDIA????

Wich wave length?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Unfortunately having recently done a lot of work on our house I am not currently in a position to spend 3000 euros on this so am wondering whether any cheaper options for home treatment might still be effective. I recall mention of a pen type device purchased by @attheedgeofscience from Dr Wilden and am very keen to hear more about that. ATEOS, are you getting any positive results yet or is it too soon to say?

Hi Dr Wlden sell two devices. I did buy the pen is 1600 € and not the 2600€.
Is a good option, the only thing is that you needy to hold it your self instead of them to be "hang direct" in your ears.

I know another women from Portugal is going to visit Dr wilder in a near future, hope to see her results.

But do not forget it will take time to make final results.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Another good news..... as most of you know ATEOS always said that even do he did got better hearing from LLLT, but never had is T reduced from It. Only the steam cells did reduced id T.
As you might understand, since we booth did same treatments, we keep in contact.

So here his a little news:

"I should also mention that I have now had 4 straight days of about 70% tinnitus-improvement (vs. baseline from April, last year). I honestly think that LLLT will pay off in the long run - it's just a matter of commitment. I will keep you updated on the progress.

Thanks & regards,
Jakob"

Always remember it requires time and dedication. ATEOS made 2 straight months of LLLT, 2 hour a days, I think 2/3 months ago. So only now results are showing up.

 

[dboy]

Fernando Gil, thanks very much for your input and for relaying ATEOS's encouraging progress (I had not realised he had left the forum again).

The pen is a proposition I will consider. The difficulty you describe in maintaining it in a correct orientation is a concern, especially since as you say we are talking months or years of self-therapy. I think I saw somewhere that someone recommended a microphone stand, but not sure how useful that might be in practice. Do you feel that this difficulty impacts the potential effectiveness of your self-treatment? Are you able to sense when it is targeting the correct area?

Good luck with your continuing recovery, and please keep us updated (also any info from your friend in Portugal if she is ok with that).

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

The pen is a proposition I will consider. The difficulty you describe in maintaining it in a correct orientation is a concern, especially since as you say we are talking months or years of self-therapy. I think I saw somewhere that someone recommended a microphone stand, but not sure how useful that might be in practice. Do you feel that this difficulty impacts the potential effectiveness of your self-treatment? Are you able to sense when it is targeting the correct area?

Yes the microphone stand is a good option.
It should be pointed at back of your head, i will try to make design nd put here.


For what I was informed ATEOS is coming back again....

 

[Nick J.]

@FERNANDO GIL - I wonder what this ban was all about. Maybe Dr. Nagler pushed the wrong buttons in another thread hehe.

Anyway, its interesting what u write about the frequencies.
If what hansi was writing is true, then he still got pretty good results with the mls all the way up to about 12KHz from what i remember.
And since the regeneration starts from the low tones and move up from there, its only after many month to even years, that u will start having a need for the higher frequencies from what i understand?

I bought the MLS with the ear plug lasers and the have a tendensy to point the laser forward.
I remember ATEOS writing that the laser should point slightly towards your neck instead.
So that gives me a problem i need to solve.
Cuz i OBV. Dont wonna treat myself for years with a less effective way then i could have done by doing it right.
So i also gonna have to come up with a way to make them point backwards.
Not gonna be easy.

The 70% tinnitus improvement ATEOS sad he had, was that dedicated for the use of the LLLT??
Cuz thats how it sounds like in your post!
And it was from use 1,5 years ago for 2/3 month?
Thats sounds more like the SC is beginning to work IMO.
Would like to hear him explain this himself now that he has been unbanned.

 

[Nick J.]

Here are my 2 audiograms made by Dr. Wilden.
First one before his first treatment and the next one on the day of my last treament, before the treatment went on, since your tinnitus will most often go up right after treatment.
Like stated before, i dont give these to much credit, since the are made in suroundings with backgroundnoice and headphones that dident cover the ears and looked cheap ect.
But i will OBV. Have more done for comperason.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

And since the regeneration starts from the low tones and move up from there, its only after many month to even years, that u will start having a need for the higher frequencies from what i understand?

That is what looks llke to me. as well.

remember ATEOS writing that the laser should point slightly towards your neck instead.

Neck and sligtly to the bottom.

The 70% tinnitus improvement ATEOS sad he had, was that dedicated for the use of the LLLT??
Cuz thats how it sounds like in your post!
And it was from use 1,5 years ago for 2/3 month?

For my understanding, ATEOS did LLLT last year before the stem cells treatements. I think he did not did LLLT during the two stem cells tretments, but this summer he told me and is written in some part of his coments, that he did 2 months of LLLT. 2 hours a day. I think only now he got some benefits from those two months of intense LLLT.

But is no longer banned.... So must be around pretty soon I think.

 

[Carloflogical]

Ladies and gentlemen LLLT is not the answer for T.
Tinnitus should be able to be switched off in a short period of time, weeks months.Not years,,,

There is not enough evidence to back the theory that it helps cellular growth.
Scientists are spending billions of pounds studying the possibility of inner ear damage, and I'm sure if LLLTwas the answer the they would have packed up and gone home years ago.

BTW, I wrote to Dr Wilden, to get some advice about my T and his response was lame at best.
He basically directed me to his website!!! What a muppit,,did he honestly think I had been to it before?
Where did he think I got his contact details from.

Anyway that's enough from me on this matter.
I'm not wasting anymore of my time following this bullshit.
There are more interesting developments on this website surrounding Am101 and authony 0063 drugs which hold a lot more hope.

My final sayin this for other T suffered that are thinking of going down the LLLT route. Think again!!!
Listen to the experts and not to individuals on here who claim to have got some slight improvement.
I know where my money will be invested, and it won't be on LLLT and it will certainly have fck all to do with Dr Wilden.......

Peace

 

[Nick J.]

@FERNANDO GIL

What key do u presse to edit the quotes, so u can make more in the same post??

Makes sense about the neck and down, since Wilden also showed me how to point the laser behind the ear.

Ok so he did 2 month LLLT before SC...that i remember. Then i also now recall him talking about useing it for 2 hours a day. So i wonder for how long in total he has been doing LLLT then.
But might be close to 4-5 month then and this fits pretty good inside the timeframe iv heard from others, before the really starts to see (hear) results.
I wonder where this thing about needing to take a break in between LLLT comes from!
Cuz Wilden told me that there is no biologic reason to take any breaks.
That means that most users are "wasting" about 2 days a week on breaks where the could be useing the laser instead and reach results alot faster!
Im doing 40min. In the morning or 2-3 hours after waking up and then 40min. During the night.
This is still less time then ATEOS in total and with a less powerfull laser output.
So since the 2 hours laserpen is working for him and 35min a day only, worked for hansi, im still in the "safezone" where it should work and might even get faster results then hansi... Cuz his timeframe for healing was pretty crazy!
Im also expecting a 5 day treatment at Anna during December.