Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[FERNANDO GIL]

I dont know how this thing about breaks ever came up!

In a mail from Sam to ATEOS she said breaks are important, I notice as well that Hansi stop from times to times.
BUT:
In her Blog at certain time Sam complains that she should never stoped with the lazers tretaments, so it does not make sense. And Hansi does stop but after he goes back to big doses. My opinion;
You need the big doses time to time and then keep doing the home therapy. If you stop 1, 2 or 3 days no problem.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

U have to correct this sentence! The word "fot" could be both "Not or For" and depending on which one, this changes the meaning of the hole sentence

Are for T, but today there were 8 patients and only 2 for T.

 

[Shambles]

Nick..yea i get dizziness from time to time. Anyways i will prob go to the clinic in the next couple weeks and report back then..later...

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I think u are right!
Cuz it would be at little crazy to charge u 120€ x 4hours/day x 5 days without explaining this to u.
But on the other hand, it sems crazy cheap for 4 hours treatment with all those kinds of lasers when u compare with Wilden!
That makes me feel a little bit robbed/cheated if u will.

THE PRICE PER SESSION/DAY IS 1000 NOK ( more or less 120€)
It can 1 hour or 4/5 hours..........I want my patients to be cured she said.

I told to you to came here first, but keep doing the Mls a little more time and then come to Norway.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

You need the big doses time to time and then keep doing the home therapy.

Agreed.

(And with breaks...)

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Report of the day.

Same lazer sessions as yesterday, we changed the sequencie of the laser tretament once again,
But today no vacuum to promote blood flow. She used a laser with a bean witch is 50 cm from the ears.
Like Dr Wilden ones, but the at 730 nm, she said that this wavelengh helps to stabelize the cells.
The truth is that i went to lunch and times to times need to make an effort to listen the T. Around 6 PM I was working at a small room,( cheking mails and working at the skype) and for a few moments once again NO T at all.

Today at dinner time and now T lower than yesterday.
My felling is staying here for a few more days, but need to get back on Saturday

Going to china in 20 days, maybe on way back come here for another 3 days.


Cheers

 

[Nick J.]

THE PRICE PER SESSION/DAY IS 1000 NOK ( more or less 120€)
It can 1 hour or 4/5 hours..........I want my patients to be cured she said.

I told to you to came here first, but keep doing the Mls a little more time and then come to Norway.

Ok...so its up to the patient how many hours of treatment the want per day and then the price is still the same?
That sounds amazing if true!

Yes it will not be before atleast a month i think, before i'll be going to Norway!
But im going for sure!
From what u are telling, it sound to good to be true almost!
So i dont wonna miss that!

What is the link for this blog of Sam??
Dont think iv read it!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

What is the link for this blog of Sam??

http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com/

...and this:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-introduction.1862/page-4#post-60596

 

[Nick J.]

Report of the day.

Same lazer sessions as yesterday, we changed the sequencie of the laser tretament once again,
But today no vacuum to promote blood flow. She used a laser with a bean witch is 50 cm from the ears.
Like Dr Wilden ones, but the at 730 nm, she said that this wavelengh helps to stabelize the cells.
The truth is that i went to lunch and times to times need to make an effort to listen the T. Around 6 PM I was working at a small room,( cheking mails and working at the skype) and for a few moments once again NO T at all.

Today at dinner time and now T lower than yesterday.
My felling is staying here for a few more days, but need to get back on Saturday

Going to china in 20 days, maybe on way back come here for another 3 days.


Cheers

WAUW!... Thats amazing!
I know its really difficult to estimate, since your T at times might be all over the place because of the high dose ect.
But how big is the difference from your normal T at home and down to those silent parts of the day in % and 100% being the T at home??

 

[attheedgeofscience]

She used a laser with a bean witch is 50 cm from the ears.

Fernando, I do have a specific question for Anne Harila about having the laser therapy done at a distance (Dr. Wilden's lasers are about 2-5 cm from the ear, approximately).

From my research on cold lasers (I have posted an unbiased document in my introduction folder), laser efficacy is governed by such things as power output (mW), wavelength (nm), and contact with the body tissue. So when a laser is not having contact with the skin, this would make the therapy less effective (= less penetration) - something which is easily observed from my photographs in my introduction. So... as a "scientific question", why is she having the laser therapy done at 50 cm from the ear in this particular case...?

Thanks.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

But how big is the difference from your normal T at home and down to those silent parts of the day in % and 100% being the T at home??

During those moments, there was NO T at all. I even taped my ears cause I was just not beliving, and sudenly a zinger and silent again. But only for a few minutes.

 

[Nick J.]

http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com/

...and this:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-introduction.1862/page-4#post-60596

Ok thx.. This blog i know.
And yes she is really pointing out the importance of breaks.
I just havent read any facts/studies, as to why this is so important and what timeframes that are needed depending on the dose!
Thats why im a little skeptical.

Cuz if this were true, then i cant understand how Fernando would benefit from such high dose in one day and for serveral day in a row!
Then there should be a natural max of dose per day the cells could obtain.
This new kind of "overdose treatment" has kind of confused me.
Especially because it seems to work more then well.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Fernando, I do have a specific question for Anne Harila about having the laser therapy done at a distance (Dr. Wilden's lasers are about 2-5 cm from the ear, approximately).

I will ask tomorow.
Maybe the answer is cause is the only one she does have with that frequencie. We keep talking, and the laser world is preatty much dependent of a few factories that produce the Diods, that is why is dificult now to find anything that is not 808 and 650. The others are too expensive and so it´s dificult now find them.

But will ask, yesterday she used that same laser on my nose, to help to breath better.

Cheers

 

[Nick J.]

Fernando, I do have a specific question for Anne Harila about having the laser therapy done at a distance (Dr. Wilden's lasers are about 2-5 cm from the ear, approximately).

When i got treated in Ibiza, Wildens laser was likewise 50cm from my ears/head.
So sounds wierd if he treated u back in Germany with the same laser only 2-5cm from the ear.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Ok...so its up to the patient how many hours of treatment the want per day and then the price is still the same?
That sounds amazing if true!

Not the patient to decide, but I think that is her standart treatment. That she changes during the days acording to your reaction.
The lady from hawaii I think there was no reaction from 2 to 3 day, so she rise the dose, Today she stayed there as much time as I did.

And since first day was her first time on LLLT, I think 4 hours for 1st treatment would "kill her", so now is getting more time.

But you can count with 4 hours with diferent lasers.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Cuz if this were true, then i cant understand how Fernando would benefit from such high dose in one day and for serveral day in a row!
Then there should be a natural max of dose per day the cells could obtain.
This new kind of "overdose treatment" has kind of confused me.
Especially because it seems to work more then well.

let´s wait and see.......go easy.

 

[Nick J.]

Not the patient to decide, but I think that is her standart treatment. That she changes during the days acording to your reaction.
The lady from hawaii I think there was no reaction from 2 to 3 day, so she rise the dose, Today she stayed there as much time as I did.

And since first day was her first time on LLLT, I think 4 hours for 1st treatment would "kill her", so now is getting more time.

But you can count with 4 hours with diferent lasers.

Okay, so good reaction equals more treatingtime!

But it seems true, that a first time treatment of 4hours high dose would not do more good then just one, since day 1 seems to be the "waking up day" of the cells and only on the second day do the start to react!
I think i remember a studie that showed the earcells treated with LLLT was bigger then the controlgroup.
This could be from the cell being able to hold/store more nutrient, since its production of energi now is exploded and it therefore needs more?
Dont know.. But its seem logic that a cell treated over a longer period with LLLT, would be much better fit to absorb the high dose, then a nearly dead/not working cell!

 

[Nick J.]

let´s wait and see.......go easy.

Dont worry, i will
Not changing my own routine just yet.
But im just trying to figure out more about this puzzel.

I'v been thinking about this high dose u are getting with so many different wavelength.
Maybe its possible to kind of bypass this slow regeneration in the choclea from the low tones up to the high.
Maybe its actaully possible to treat in the hole area of frequenzies at the same time and in high dose, with no negative results? Might even get better (faster) results!
Cuz who can tell if Wilden has solved this puzzel down to its core??
Im not 100% sure that he have, after hearing this other approach on treatment.

I might be rampling here. But i just find the possibility really interesting.
Im definitly gonna have alot of questions myself when i see her.

 

[Nick J.]

Nick..yea i get dizziness from time to time. Anyways i will prob go to the clinic in the next couple weeks and report back then..later...

Perfect!
Talk later!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

When i got treated in Ibiza, Wildens laser was likewise 50cm from my ears/head.
So sounds wierd if he treated u back in Germany with the same laser only 2-5cm from the ear.

Below, a photograph of Dr. Wilden (and a patient!) - however, this is not the same type of laser as I was treated with - and the distance (in any event) is about 20-30 cm. in the picture below.

What matters is the tissue connectivity. As soon as there is no connectivity, I believe the distance - ie. 10, 20, 50 cm - does not really matter...

 

[Nick J.]

What matters is the tissue connectivity. As soon as there is no connectivity, I believe the distance - ie. 10, 20, 50 cm - does not really matter...

I have to disagree.
If the laserbeam was concentrated, then i agree, since very little power is lost because of distance in a laserbeam.
But when the laserbeam is unfocused/spread out, then u obv. also spread out the dose over a bigger area and then the penetration would have to lower the further u move the laser.

I actually now remember asking Wilden why he kept the laser at that distance and he told me it was to cover the hole ear and even a area of about 1-2cm around the ear.
So he was on purpose not only focusing on the choclea for some reason.
This again means that there is a spread on his laser.
But i also remember he could adjust the mirrors in the head of the laser, making the beam bigger or smaller.

The laser he used on me was also another kind.
It was all white and looked alot different then the one on the picture.
I actually dident pay much attention to it though.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I have to disagree.

See this thread of my mine from ½ a year ago or so (the pdf-document, that is...):

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-introduction.1862/page-2#post-44068

I will post photos to illustrate my point (I have my own laser). Tissue connectivity - of all the factors - is the probably the most important when it comes to tissue depth penetration.

 

[Nick J.]

@attheedgeofscience

Okay, i just looked at some video i made on my phone during treatment in Ibiza and i have to correct myself.
The distance he used on me was more like on your picture.
So 25-30cm away i would think.
Only difference is the power of the beam and the area of treatment looks minimum twice as big and intence as in the case with the woman being treated.
But i guees it makes sense if he since upgraded his lasers.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Okay, i just looked at some video i made on my phone during treatment in Ibiza and i have to correct myself.
The distance he used on me was more like on your picture.
So 25-30cm away i would think.

No problem. As I say, it does not really matter whether is it 10, 20, or 50 cm from the "target". As soon as there is loss of connectivity between the laser and the body tissue, the penetration depth decreases quite a bit. I will post photos to illustrate this...

 

[Nick J.]

I will post photos to illustrate my point (I have my own laser). Tissue connectivity - of all the factors - is the probably the most important when it comes to tissue depth penetration.

Im awhere of the deeper penetration on connectivity, since u remove blood from the area, making it easier for the beam to go deep.
When i point my own laser at my hand, the only thing i can see clearly on the other side, is the big bloodvessels.
So for reasons unknown to me, the blood plays a huge role when it comes to penetration.

But i still cant see why it wouldent be logic with a lower and lower penetrationdept on a unfocused laser, when u start moving it furter and further away!
Maybe we are agreeing, but just talk about two different things?
If so, i apologize. My eyes are kind of crossed over, cuz of to much time in front of the computer today.

Ill take a look tomorrow.
Have to spilt for now.

 

[exodus]

hi @FERNANDO GIL

it seems interesting

can you ask her if she ll provide a discount if we come from the forum (worth trying)?

how much are you expecting to spend for the treatment +staying costs and all?

 

[Nick J.]

This product...
http://helsenyt.com/frame.cfm/cms/id=5418/sprog=1/grp=8/menu=3/

Is said to boost the ATP production in the cells, making it a possible good supplyment along LLLT for even faster regeneration and absorption of higher doses.
Rat was shown to be able to swim 24% longer when given this stuff.

Im gonna test it myself.
Dont know if the got it here in Malta.
But otherwise when i get back to Denmark!

In this link..
http://helsenyt.com/frame.cfm/cms/id=3743/sprog=1/grp=8/menu=3/

Its specific mentioned to work on lowered hearing!

 

[Manuel Tissm]

@FERNANDO GIL and @Nick J.,
is possible to buy via the internet the MLS laser ?
you guys have the internet link?

 

[dboy]

Here you go @Manuel Tissm:

http://www.lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/en/inner-ear-laser

 

[Nick J.]

@FERNANDO GIL and @Nick J.,
is possible to buy via the internet the MLS laser ?
you guys have the internet link?

Yes we have the link or u can just search for Lux spa laser.
But ATM Fernando and i are looking into new options, where u get better value.
More laser for less money!
So if u are not in a hurry, i would recommend u waited like a month!
Fernando is going to china soon and will be picking up a new laser from a contact he got in the clinick in sweeden where he is ATM!
U might also wonna consider maybe spending twice the amount of the MLS and then get a prof laser with alot more power and the posibility to apply more laserprobes along the way, with other wavelengths and power output.
We are still looking into this and again Fernando is the man u wonna talk to.
I believe he will be getting some prices from a contact in his homecountry soon!