Member- Mar 1, 2018
- 871
- Tinnitus Since
- birth/ recent spike 2/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
Probably. I have no measurable hearing loss and responded well. What point are you attempting to make?
MuteButton
- Thread starter Jim
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I was responding to a question posted by another forum member. I didn't realize that I needed your permission to do so.
- Mar 1, 2018
- 871
- Tinnitus Since
- birth/ recent spike 2/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
Sorry, I was giving you more credit than maybe was deserved. I thought maybe you were implying that it seems that while on one hand the founder of Neuromod believes hearing loss to cause tinnitus, we have a successful report of someone cured without hearing loss. And that is an interesting dilemma, for which I can answer about bi-modal stimulation. But never mind I guess.
I got my tinnitus in year 2008 after sound trauma. I have hearing loss at 4 kHz. My tinnitus is louder in the right ear.
I think the Neuromod device will work in my case.
I also got floaters and visual snow after the onset my tinnitus. I have a hypersensitive nervous system and I hope the device calms it down.
I think the Neuromod device will work in my case.
I also got floaters and visual snow after the onset my tinnitus. I have a hypersensitive nervous system and I hope the device calms it down.
The lack of measurable hearing loss doesn't mean that there isn't hearing loss. I'm sure you've seen the "hidden hearing loss" copypasta several times but in case you (or someone else reading this post) haven't: https://www.hear-it.org/hidden-hearing-loss
Claire or someone else could have a third of their auditory nerve fibers burned out and the hearing test could still show perfect hearing.
- May 29, 2018
- 1,161
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Neck/stress
All we can do is pray and keep pleading for a crumb of comfort from 'NeuroGod'Now if we would just get an update that would be another story.
- Mar 1, 2018
- 871
- Tinnitus Since
- birth/ recent spike 2/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
This begs the question. If the brain doesn't perceive loss, and let's pretend you have perfect word discrimination, then it seems highly unlikely that the brain would in effect "turn up the gain". What is it compensating for? I ran across a paper published in 2018, that argued this point. Something to consider.
In programming we have a thing called "redundant coding". Information transmitted using redundant coding can be completely recovered even if a certain percentage of it was lost or damaged during transmission. The user of the computer won't notice anything, but the low-level networking component most certainly knows that the data it received was partially corrupt.
I can easily imagine a similar mechanism here. We consciously don't feel any issues, hearing and word discrimination is just fine (human language contains a lot of redundancy), but deep in the brain regions responsible for hearing, the neural circuitry senses that auditory input is partially damaged and tries to compensate. The damage is detectable to the brain, so tinnitus appears - but it is yet mild enough to be "automatically" corrected, so it's not detectable consciously or through tests.
Also I hope your baby&wife are fine and your tinnitus low, man!
Arseny
Member
- Nov 1, 2018
- 283
- Tinnitus Since
- 2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Possibly from problems with blood flow
Can someone explain this to me? At this point I'm confused.
There are 3 separate devices in development. MuteButton, Susan Shore (University of Michigan), and University of Minnesota.
Some of them target brain regions to reduce the tinnitus and one of the them targets DCN (to reduce hyperactivity in the ear itself).
Is this correct? Can you please tell which is which?
I also have a theoretical question. If somebody is to use the device that targets DCN, but his tinnitus comes from the brain is it going to help? What I mean is that if a patient has tinnitus as a side effect from medication (antidepressants, withdrawal from benzos, etc), has no measurable hearing loss and perceives tinnitus "in the brain/head", but not in his ears. And then he uses the device that reduces hyperactivity in the ears. Is it going to be effective? Not everybody has tinnitus from acoustic trauma or hearing loss.
Is MuteButton the type of device that is going to help with brain hyperactivity?
Also, are any of these devices going to help with hyperacusis? From my understanding the device that targets DCN has more chances to reduce hyperacusis. @Clare B had hyperacusis eliminated with MuteButton.
What about TTTS? Since it's all linked together maybe it has potential to improve TTTS?
I'm sorry if my questions are confusing.
@kelpiemsp Did you test up to 20 kHz? When you say you have no measurable hearing loss do you mean you have a perfect 5-10 dB result up to 20 kHz or do you have some high frequency hearing loss?
Also there's a very important question about the sounds/tones that are played in the devices. Are they above 8000 - 10000 Hz? Or are they in the "speech range"? Can someone who was in the trials tell us about that?
@Steve when you used MuteButton did you hear any very high frequency sounds?
I have a theory (that might be wrong) that the reason why older people seem to have worse results with MuteButton (apart from brain plasticity) is because they have age related high frequency hearing loss (8 kHz and higher) and they just don't hear all the sounds the device emits.
For example my mother has tinnitus (she hears very high frequency hiss/electric sound) and she has high frequency hearing loss. She has no history of acoustic traumas, no clubs or concerts, ototoxic medication or anything that could damage hearing externally. Her tinnitus came along gradually with age (and apparent age related hearing loss).
I wonder how effective MuteButton is going to be for her.
Also does anyone know are there going to be multiple profiles on the device itself so it can be used by multiple users simultaneously? Or can you readjust the device yourself later?
The reason why I'm asking is because apart from my mother, my father and my uncle also have tinnitus (acoustic traumas) and since we don't live in Europe travelling every 3 months to readjust the device is going to be very expensive and we probably won't be able to afford it. Buying 4 separate devices is probably too expensive too.
Also the final Neuromod presentation (that we know of) is going to be in less than 2 weeks. I wonder if we are going to get any new information very soon!
Sorry for such a long post. I hope someone knows the answers to these questions.
There are 3 separate devices in development. MuteButton, Susan Shore (University of Michigan), and University of Minnesota.
Some of them target brain regions to reduce the tinnitus and one of the them targets DCN (to reduce hyperactivity in the ear itself).
Is this correct? Can you please tell which is which?
I also have a theoretical question. If somebody is to use the device that targets DCN, but his tinnitus comes from the brain is it going to help? What I mean is that if a patient has tinnitus as a side effect from medication (antidepressants, withdrawal from benzos, etc), has no measurable hearing loss and perceives tinnitus "in the brain/head", but not in his ears. And then he uses the device that reduces hyperactivity in the ears. Is it going to be effective? Not everybody has tinnitus from acoustic trauma or hearing loss.
Is MuteButton the type of device that is going to help with brain hyperactivity?
Also, are any of these devices going to help with hyperacusis? From my understanding the device that targets DCN has more chances to reduce hyperacusis. @Clare B had hyperacusis eliminated with MuteButton.
What about TTTS? Since it's all linked together maybe it has potential to improve TTTS?
I'm sorry if my questions are confusing.
@kelpiemsp Did you test up to 20 kHz? When you say you have no measurable hearing loss do you mean you have a perfect 5-10 dB result up to 20 kHz or do you have some high frequency hearing loss?
Also there's a very important question about the sounds/tones that are played in the devices. Are they above 8000 - 10000 Hz? Or are they in the "speech range"? Can someone who was in the trials tell us about that?
@Steve when you used MuteButton did you hear any very high frequency sounds?
I have a theory (that might be wrong) that the reason why older people seem to have worse results with MuteButton (apart from brain plasticity) is because they have age related high frequency hearing loss (8 kHz and higher) and they just don't hear all the sounds the device emits.
For example my mother has tinnitus (she hears very high frequency hiss/electric sound) and she has high frequency hearing loss. She has no history of acoustic traumas, no clubs or concerts, ototoxic medication or anything that could damage hearing externally. Her tinnitus came along gradually with age (and apparent age related hearing loss).
I wonder how effective MuteButton is going to be for her.
Also does anyone know are there going to be multiple profiles on the device itself so it can be used by multiple users simultaneously? Or can you readjust the device yourself later?
The reason why I'm asking is because apart from my mother, my father and my uncle also have tinnitus (acoustic traumas) and since we don't live in Europe travelling every 3 months to readjust the device is going to be very expensive and we probably won't be able to afford it. Buying 4 separate devices is probably too expensive too.
Also the final Neuromod presentation (that we know of) is going to be in less than 2 weeks. I wonder if we are going to get any new information very soon!
Sorry for such a long post. I hope someone knows the answers to these questions.
- Dec 19, 2018
- 108
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ETD possibly, or neck and jaw, or maybe anxiety?
The DCN (Dorsal Cochlear Nucleus) is located in the brain stem... which is the brain.
All devices in development target this area because so far the science shows the hyperactivity starts in this region of the brain.
It does not matter how you got your tinnitus, because it all starts (as far as we know) in the DCN. Assuming we can break up that activity, we can lower the perception of tinnitus.
As far as your tinnitus sound, brain tinnitus I have noticed is really a perception thing. When I'm feeling fully myself (low stress, etc) I can tell my left ear has a louder perception of tinnitus, but the moment I'm back to my anxious self, it fills my whole head.
My audiogram shows I have incredible hearing. This is clearly due to the hyperacusis, because honestly before onset I had kind of crappy hearing. I believe due to an acoustic trauma (most likely blowing air in my ears super hard, while blowing my nose) my ears turned up the gain and I can perceive everything super loud, including my tinnitus.
All I'm saying is if this device reduces neural activity in the DCN, then yes it will be somewhat effective regardless of how you got your tinnitus (except pulsatile tinnitus and TMJ-specific tinnitus).
- May 29, 2018
- 1,161
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Neck/stress
Not a chance. They are a money making enterprise who will do everything in their power to line their and their audiologist partners pockets. Helping our tinnitus is secondary to that.
....That said I personally believe they're overstressing the importance of your hearing profile and it's worth your family just trying your device before buying their own, particularly if they have no detectable hearing loss and neither do you.
- Mar 1, 2018
- 871
- Tinnitus Since
- birth/ recent spike 2/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
- Mar 1, 2018
- 871
- Tinnitus Since
- birth/ recent spike 2/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Born with ETD, several acoustic traumas, most recently ETD
Every human has hearing loss above 16 kHz. Every one. This is normal and expected.
- Apr 18, 2013
- 1,633
- Tinnitus Since
- 2003
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Flu, Noise-induced, Jaw trauma
There was broadband noise in the selection that I listened to, across the spectrum (though I didn't get to test how far up there). They didn't calibrate it to my hearing.
My understanding is that it is calibrated to your hearing profile, so people should hear the higher frequency sounds. Of course this will always be dependent on how much you are able to boost those sounds to compensate. Some people will be profoundly deaf in the higher frequencies due to age related hearing loss, so no amount of boosting will help.
- May 7, 2015
- 1,017
- Tinnitus Since
- 29.09/2014
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic trauma using headphones
DCN is part of our "reptile brain/brainstem and is not to be confused with the cochlea itself.
What about pulsatile tinnitus? Did they actually say it won't work on people with pulsatile tinnitus, or just that they did not test on people with pulsatile tinnitus? Don't a lot of people also experience pulsatile tinnitus, like somatic tinnitus?
Pulsatile tinnitus isn't tinnitus but rather a vascular condition so can't see why it would do anything for it.
Based on what I have read pulsating tinnitus is more rare and generally more related to vascular issues and not hearing loss.
I will say that I have somatic tinnitus and on a rare occasion it will pulsate if I am doing something strenuous or get up too fast, but I think that is rather normal.
One possible reason for the Neuromod delay is the uncertainty around what will happen with medical devices in the event of a no deal Brexit. I think the official advice is that in theory everything that already has a CE Mark should be fine, but it's not considered certain. It may be that as the UK would be a big market for Neuromod, they are waiting to see whether we are going to have a No Deal Brexit.
https://www.med-technews.com/news/hancock-letter-says-medical-device-flow-could-be-delayed-for/
https://www.med-technews.com/news/hancock-letter-says-medical-device-flow-could-be-delayed-for/
Careful bringing up Brexit, this thread will be a warzone in minutes
Either way the current 'plan' is not much will change for two years if I'm not mistaken so bringing medical devices back/releasing them shouldn't be a problem during that time.
I'm thinking if the device can work for another mechanical issue like ETD, it can work for pulsatile tinnitus. It is still a brain rewiring issue concerning the noise. Especially if no vascular issues were found (through MRAs, etc.) it is more a noise issue.
Can someone tell me what benefit Hubert Lim has brought to Neuromod? Has he made technical changes to the actual device compared to the one from 2015?
It looks to me that he is promoting the results only - but I might be wrong.
It looks to me that he is promoting the results only - but I might be wrong.
I think Neuromod is really focusing on the USA release. That will be their #1 target market. Look at where all their energy is focused with Lim's presentations. Good for some of us.
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