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#2,252
Marko Nakovski said:
@Paulmanlike One thing that I don't understand is that Claire B case is just the opposite from the criteria of Neuromod team. As far as I understand Claire didn't have any hearing loss. I don't know if they tested her hearing on normal audiogram or if she was tested on all frequencies. I think it was on normal audiogram.

So in that case I'm wondering how would they set the device to stimulate the tongue... Maybe all the patients who had good hearing on frequencies up to 8 kHz are using the device based on some other principle or different kind of therapy, who knows. Maybe they tested her hearing frequency above 8 kHz because that will make the criteria more expanded but in case they didn't, I'm not sure how would they connect the device on patients with good hearing following the idea of treating tinnitus based on hearing loss.

Claire said her cause of tinnitus is unknown. She wasn't exposed to loud noises or events at all. Their idea or should I say criteria of matching the tinnitus based on hearing loss is totally the opposite to Claire's case.

And the part when they said that patients with tinnitus and hyperacusis had much better results but no improvement of hyperacusis itself is even more confusing.

Maybe patients with hyperacusis had a lot of spikes or some sort of reactive tinnitus so they benefited the most from the treatment. It's the only possibility that came on my mind after reading that. Maybe this device will help the most those who have reactive tinnitus and spikes.
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Have you looked at the criteria for the trial? She was not on the opposite end, there is no mention of having to have hearing loss to be part of the trials although you were disqualified if you had a loss of over 80 dB in frequencies above 1 kHz, and over 40 dB below.

The whole point in having to have an audiogram is that it is calibrated so all the tones in the therapy are heard through the headphones to stimulate the auditory system.

Like I said, if you have a dip at 6 kHz, then that frequency is played higher so all frequencies are heard.

We don't know whether they are stimulating frequencies above 8 kHz as it wasn't talked about.
 
#2,253
Marko Nakovski said:
So in that case I'm wondering how would they set the device to stimulate the tongue... Maybe all the patients who had good hearing on frequencies up to 8 kHz are using the device based on some other principle or different kind of therapy, who knows.
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That would void the purpose of the study: all participants in each particular group need to undergo the exact same treatment.

Marko Nakovski said:
Maybe they tested her hearing frequency above 8 kHz because that will make the criteria more expanded but in case they didn't, I'm not sure how would they connect the device on patients with good hearing following the idea of treating tinnitus based on hearing loss.
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I don't see what the problem is with having good hearing: it's a bimodal stimulation device, which means there is one part that is a "jolt" that is delivered via the tongue electrode, and the other part that is a sound stimulus. It is plausible that the intensity and timing of the jolt, as well as the intensity, timing, and content of the sound are dependent on your hearing, whether you have losses or not.

All we know is that the input parameters to the "secret sauce" are the hearing thresholds from PTA, but there is no reason to believe that a threshold of 0 would be a problem for the algorithm.
 
#2,254
Does anyone know if this gentleman Andy has tried this device yet? It was posted 2 months ago on a different forum (BTA HealthUnlocked), just trying to connect the dots as I'm not in Europe?

Neuromod hearing aids coming to Devon, Torbay

andyb_1969
2 months ago

Hi I went to see my audiologist today and I broke down in my meeting getting emotionally upset at the distress I'm going through in my life over recent months with my tinnitus.

My audiologist then went onto tell me that I am now on the list to try the new Neuromod hearing aid system which are due to come to Torbay Hospital in the next few months. I have only heard good things about these hearing aids and I'm so excited to get through these next couple of months until they arrive.

Has anyone else in the UK already tried this device or anyone else been told they are on the waiting list for them.

Regards Andrew​
 
#2,257
Piney said:
Does anyone know if this gentleman Andy has tried this device yet? It was posted 2 months ago on a different forum (BTA HealthUnlocked), just trying to connect the dots as I'm not in Europe?

Neuromod hearing aids coming to Devon, Torbay

andyb_1969
2 months ago

Hi I went to see my audiologist today and I broke down in my meeting getting emotionally upset at the distress I'm going through in my life over recent months with my tinnitus.

My audiologist then went onto tell me that I am now on the list to try the new Neuromod hearing aid system which are due to come to Torbay Hospital in the next few months. I have only heard good things about these hearing aids and I'm so excited to get through these next couple of months until they arrive.

Has anyone else in the UK already tried this device or anyone else been told they are on the waiting list for them.

Regards Andrew​
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He's confused.

Regards Bam
 
#2,259
grate_biff said:
That's too bad cause it´s a really big issue IMHO.
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I'm sure they've thought about it, regardless 80% reporting improvement is a pretty big deal with the potential to tweak it to improve.

I'm sure the TENT-A2 will hopefully further confirm efficacy (@Markku, @Steve - didn't they say they have had positive results from the TENT-A2 as well?)

They are also looking into patient sub-types, seeing what parameters work best etc.

This company is going to be hugely successful if the trials success are carried over to patient stories. The internet and tinnitus forums will make or break them.

Let's be thankful we are in 2019 and have the internet to reach out to others with the affliction and a treatment on the horizon.

I honestly don't know if I would be here if it was 1995 and had nowhere to go because of it.
 
#2,260
It's so interesting that most doctors will tell you to stay off the internet, but their knowledge is typically dated and the only advice they can give is "buy a white noise machine and get used to it".
 
#2,261
Yeah my doctor said it's for life. Which at this moment in time it is, but that's not to say what will happen in the future. I think they treat on a NOW basis and being reliant on a near cure is unhealthy.
 
#2,262
Yeah, I would agree with that. I also think you need to be slightly detached if you're going to work as a doctor long term. I've got three friends who are junior doctors and ... it's not a life that's easy on the psyche.
 
#2,263
Paulmanlike said:
@Piney,

Neuromod doesn't have a hearing aid. They have a bi-modal neuromodulation device though that you listen to on headphones and put an electrode on your balls to drive plasticity.

Tongue. I mean to tongue.
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In that thread he is then asked if he is referring to this (linking Neuromod) meaning the Neuromod device and he answers yes.

So he is referring to the Neuromod device after all.
 
#2,265
Do we know anything about a possible price for this thing we're looking at? Nothing precise, just a ballpark? I understand it would have to entail both the price of the device itself, and personalization for your hearing.

Maybe based on the cost of that previous released MuteButton?
 
#2,266
Bob den Hartog said:
Do we know anything about a possible price for this thing we're looking at? Nothing precise, just a ballpark?

Maybe based on the cost of that previous released MuteButton?
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Quoting myself:
Markku said:
We just did a Q&A with them in case you missed it:

Q&A: Tinnitus Hub Meets Neuromod (Lenire)

We also asked about pricing, direct link to that question/answer segment in the video below:

Are there any estimations on how much the device will cost?

So basically they are still figuring it out (or not ready to publish).

The pricing they had on the device a couple of years back was as follows (source):

"It will retail at €2500 which includes €2200 for the device and €300 for the consultation with the audiologist who configures the device to each patients hearing profile. As our sales increase and the costs of manufacture decrease however we do hope to bring that price down slightly over the coming years."​

But this doesn't mean it will be identically priced now. The clinical trials they've now organized, the extra R&D etc will have cost them and their investors a lot of money, and I wouldn't be surprised if the price will be higher this time around.

We will learn soon enough.
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#2,269
missingsilence said:
Do you think it will be able to treat two or more separate tones? Also, have any of the participants reported it reducing their visual snow (if they had it)?
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I don't know about the visual snow, but I remember in the Q&A it's discussed that since it isn't personalized on a specific tone, and instead treats the tinnitus in general, it can be used to treat multiple and varying tones.
 
#2,271
Tonality.
Intonality.
Volume.
Ears. Head.
Number of tones.

It is NOT programmed to treat the tinnitus sound, rather look at the science behind it. It is about repeatedly disturbing the neurons that are thought to generate tinnitus along the way through the brain, by repeated use to induce plasticity over time.
 
#2,272
Bam said:
Surely they realise that all they've got to do is start selling the bloody thing and if it really works word of mouth will drive sales through the roof.
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It occurred to me the other day that we really aren't their target market. Sounds daft, but think about it. We are fairly small in number and there are people on this forum saying Neuromod should give them to us for free to test, we'll buy one & then pass it around amongst friends, we'll buy one and then just reverse engineer our own version. Actively undermining their business basically.

Neuromod will be gearing up to try to sell this as a viable treatment to health insurers or healthcare providers. That's where they'll make their money, not through a few thousand desperate suckers like us.
 
#2,273
ruud1boy said:
It occurred to me the other day that we really aren't their target market. Sounds daft, but think about it. We are fairly small in number and there are people on this forum saying Neuromod should give them to us for free to test, we'll buy one & then pass it around amongst friends, we'll buy one and then just reverse engineer our own version. Actively undermining their business basically.

Neuromod will be gearing up to try to sell this as a viable treatment to health insurers or healthcare providers. That's where they'll make their money, not through a few thousand desperate suckers like us.
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It's also important to note that even though 10% of the population have tinnitus, I can assure you 10% won't be actively buying it whether that be based on price or anything else. Some people I know don't give a shit about it and won't be paying through the nose to be hooked up to a machine an hour a day. They have simply learnt to live with it happily. Yes - those people exist.

I think we are the target market. We have tinnitus and we are the ones who are preoccupied with the noise and therefore are the ones most prepared to shell out for a treatment.

There is also the topic of whether or not healthcare insurance or providers will adopt this treatment.

NICE actually reviewed Acoustic CR Neuromodulation for the NHS and it was deemed not practical and the evidence was lacking.
I can't see (as of yet) the NHS even considering this treatment. It's been tested on just over 500 people, it is still a very much experimental treatment in the medical world and relatively unheard of. It does not make business sense for a healthcare provider to adopt this treatment (yet or if ever).

Neuromod are still in the early game and their risk of bankruptcy is high, although the potential reward they may receive is also high.

If it is to be adopted by healthcare providers or insurances some factors need to be considered such as

- the cost of the treatment compared to other treatments (CBT, TRT)
- how beneficial it is to existing treatments (if Neuromod is 60% chance of success and CBT has 90% success), then why will the NHS invest in Neuromod

Also, in general, it has to be accepted that a strong evidence base is there in terms of efficacy and safety, it is stronger than any other treatments on the market, it's feasible to offer this new treatment

This is going way forward however and none of us can but speculate what it is going to happen with Neuromod.

It'll be a game changer or it will be another tested and failed method. Let's hope for the former.
 
#2,274
I don't think their CEO would've spent that much time putting together an interview with @Steve if we weren't part of their target market.

Plus, I don't know who's going to reverse engineer this stuff, because if it really works, it would be the best 2500 euros we could ever spend on anything and I think we would all want to see those guys thrive in their business.
 
#2,275
Paulmanlike said:
I can assure you 10% won't be actively buying it whether that be based on price or anything else. Some people I know don't give a shit about it and won't be paying through the nose to be hooked up to a machine an hour a day. They have simply learnt to live with it happily. Yes - those people exist.
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I agree with you. I think only 1 in 1000 tinnitus sufferers will buy something like this. The sales numbers might be disappointing!
 
#2,276
https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib5/chapter/technology-overview

Here is an example of a healthcare provider like the NHS adopting a new treatment. This one was for acoustic CR neuromodulation that was thrown out the window and they deemed therapies focused on the reaction of the tinnitus (CBT, TRT) more practical.

There was no way the NHS was ever going to adopt it with the price and the limited evidence.

To this day, ACRN still sits on the shelf at private clinics at thousands of pounds with a lack of evidence.

I do wonder what Neuromod's strategy is however.
 
#2,277
Agatha said:
I agree with you. I think only 1 in 1000 tinnitus sufferers will buy something like this. The sales numbers might be disappointing!
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I know 6 people in my direct environment who will be happy to pay for a device that gets rid of their tinnitus, one of them is my father who is totally habituated for years but apparently he hates the spikes he gets every now and then.
 
#2,278
Agatha said:
I agree with you. I think only 1 in 1000 tinnitus sufferers will buy something like this. The sales numbers might be disappointing!
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I think if it is as good as the data is showing so far and they can further improve efficacy through trial and error, then I think they will be a hugely successful company. There are many sufferers across the globe and with the increased prevalence going to happen with, if they can demonstrate high efficacy, they will be successful. This will be the only treatment that can turn down the volume rather than manage a reaction to it giving them considerable competitiveness.
 
#2,279
gorzakus said:
I know 6 people in my direct environment who will be happy to pay for a device that gets rid of their tinnitus, one of them is my father who is totally habituated for years but apparently he hates the spikes he gets every now and then.
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I have a friend who has had mild tinnitus for 15 years. She only hears it at night and is perfectly happy and enjoys her life. But she is still going to buy this device the minute it's released. Because she fucking hates having even mild tinnitus.

Nobody, I repeat nobody on earth wants to live with any form of this shit and if they can afford the chance to rid themselves of it... They will.

If Neuromod works they will sell countless millions of their device. Simple as that.
 
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