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[JohnAdams]

So why hasn't this been released yet???

 

[Tanni]

I've started worshipping nerds. F*** God. He clearly hates me. It's all about the nerd saviours now.

The meek shall inherit the Earth

Wil be interesting to see what the industry has to say after these talks then. That should give a good indication of how effective it's expected to be.

 

[Jack Straw]

I don't think audiologists would be excited about a device that could affect their business significantly. It is their livelihood at the end of the day and not being able to sell hearing aids/sound therapy to tinnitus patients will hurt their bottom line.

Hopefully the well being of their patients are more important to them than money.

 

[Paulmanlike]

You guys reckon any new news tomorrow?

 

[Paulmanlike]

So why hasn't this been released yet???

@JohnAdams

As you probably already know, they are preparing for launch. And as you are an American, the thing needs to be FDA approved which takes time and will come after European launch where it's already been approved.

I guess the peer review paper will be published before it's launched so that they have some evidence to both patients and audiology outlets of it working.

 

[gadsie]

I don't think audiologists would be excited about a device that could affect their business significantly. It is their livelihood at the end of the day and not being able to sell hearing aids/sound therapy to tinnitus patients will hurt their bottom line.

Hopefully the well being of their patients are more important to them than money.

I think the market won't allow selling an inferior product. If all audiologists sell an inferior product, then one audiologist will sell the superior product to attract customers, and the rest will naturally follow.

 

[spedgas]

Spoke to an audiologist on the phone today. She did not seem to know about this. At all.

This is a concern of mine. I live in a fairly major US city and I'm almost certain I won't be able to get it without traveling. As far as I know there is one audiology clinic in this town that caters specifically to tinnitus patients. It's only open 20 hours a week. I've never been there, but their website is plastered with sound therapy stuff. I'll probably send off an email here soon to see just how far they have their heads in the sand.

 

[Paulmanlike]

I don't think audiologists would be excited about a device that could affect their business significantly. It is their livelihood at the end of the day and not being able to sell hearing aids/sound therapy to tinnitus patients will hurt their bottom line.

Hopefully the well being of their patients are more important to them than money.

Never know, it could boost sales for audiology outlets. They'll still be selling hearing aids.

Take a look at it this way:

I could go to an audiology outlet tomorrow, buy some sound therapy and counselling for £1000's.

Or

Buy a Neuromod that actually addresses my tinnitus.

P.S. I would never buy any sound therapy, counselling, for it being now or when I first got it. But a Neuromod...

People's attitudes are changing, back in the 80's, 90's everybody was like Michael Leigh praising Jastreboff and habituation, these days demands are rising for real treatments...

Anyway, they can't control the environment with which they operate, all they can do is adapt.

 

[JohnAdams]

I don't think audiologists would be excited about a device that could affect their business significantly. It is their livelihood at the end of the day and not being able to sell hearing aids/sound therapy to tinnitus patients will hurt their bottom line.

Eff their livelihoods. How about that?

 

[Drone Draper]

People's attitudes are changing, back in the 80's, 90's everybody was like Michael Leigh praising Jastreboff and habituation, these days demands are rising for real treatments...

Why is that, do you think?

 

[Paulmanlike]

Why is that, do you think?

Increasing incidence of tinnitus.

- Vets. Millions paid out in compensation.
- Young people. Health crises.
- Aging population. More demand.

It's becoming more of a common condition and it's been severely neglected in the past.

Long history of snake oils. Tinnitus veterans across the world are fed up of it.

Tinnitus Talk. God bless this forum - increased communication - Between various stakeholders in tinnitus research.

List goes on...

Anyway, there is huge market potential that is only going to grow and hopefully Neuromod will, and deservedly so, reap the rewards if it's as good as they say it is.

 

[Drone Draper]

Good answer. I think the internet is definitely a contributing factor.

Just doing a bit of keyword research as to what people in the UK Google right now for tinnitus each month. Quick snapshot of a select few terms:

"Tinnitus cure" - 8,100
"Tinnitus relief" - 6,600
"Tinnitus treatment" - 1,300
"Tinnitus relief" - 1,300
"Tinnitus retraining therapy" - 390
"Tinnitus habituation" - 140

Clearly people are more interested in getting rid of this than looking into TRT, which I can understand.

 

[_Patrick_]

Sometimes, I'm quite excited and optimistic about this device.
At other times, I feel anxious: "and what if it works for everybody else/a lot of people, but not for me?"

I've tried a bunch of stuff, and every time, it seems like everybody has found something to ease their pain: sports, diet, sound therapies (the amount of YouTube videos with comments saying it works to knock people's tinnitus down is amazing).

In my case, nothing seems to work, I identified what makes my tinnitus worse (lack of sleep, stress, illness, etc.) but not what makes it better. I can be in perfect shape, eat well, sleep well, be relaxed, but still have my tinnitus screaming in my ears, and sometimes, I might be really tired, but it calms down for no reason.

So I'm kind of worried that this too won't work for me, in which case, since I don't feel like anything else is coming anytime soon, it would lead to a desperate situation.

If only I was sure this thing would work, I would already be the happiest man on earth and time wouldn't matter that much. But not knowing for sure makes the wait excruciating and this whole thing both hopeful and stressful.

Anyone else feels the same?

 

[gadsie]

Sometimes, I'm quite excited and optimistic about this device.
At other times, I feel anxious: "and what if it works for everybody else/a lot of people, but not for me?"

I've tried a bunch of stuff, and every time, it seems like everybody has found something to ease their pain: sports, diet, sound therapies (the amount of YouTube videos with comments saying it works to knock people's tinnitus down is amazing).

In my case, nothing seems to work, I identified what makes my tinnitus worse (lack of sleep, stress, illness, etc.) but not what makes it better. I can be in perfect shape, eat well, sleep well, be relaxed, but still have my tinnitus screaming in my ears, and sometimes, I might be really tired, but it calms down for no reason.

So I'm kind of worried that this too won't work for me, in which case, since I don't feel like anything else is coming anytime soon, it would lead to a desperate situation.

If only I was sure this thing would work, I would already be the happiest man on earth and time wouldn't matter that much. But not knowing for sure makes the wait excruciating and this whole thing both hopeful and stressful.

Anyone else feels the same?

That's because a lot of things is placebo for most people. Notice for example how every diet, no matter how different (raw paleo vs raw vegan) makes everyone feel "soo amazing", it's all in their head. When a true cure comes it will probably work for you too.

Try to live one day at a time, a treatment might be around the corner.

 

[Paulmanlike]

Anyone else feels the same?

I think everybody does.

If you meet the criteria that was included in the trials then you automatically have a chance of it working.

There is also the fact that TENT-A1 has been discussed but in TENT-A2 is the one we are waiting for to find out what they've learnt. They are looking at other ways that could improve efficacy in TENT-A2/adjusted parameters.

But yeah, like Dr. Ross O'Neill said they don't want to be wasting patients' time to those who won't benefit but remember this is one of the biggest studies that focuses on the tinnitus sub groups as well.

We're all in this together.

In fact I remember a quote from Dr. Susan Shore saying something along the lines of that one day this treatment can be used to treat all kinds of tinnitus. So even if one of us don't have first luck, you never know, this technology may go on improving.

 

[_Patrick_]

If you meet the criteria that was included in the trials then you automatically have a chance of it working.

I'm not sure I do though. I have multiple tones in each ear, not a single tone. My tinnitus can change from mild to high (although it's been high for a few months now), and it has some somatic properties (when I clench my jaw, or yawn, it makes a part of it louder, but not all).

Would that comply?

 

[Bob den Hartog]

First of all, the multiple and changing tones doesn't matter. One of the people in the testimonials said she had two tones, and the Neuromod eliminated at least one of them (during the trial - who knows what happens if she goes on with the treatment).

The jaw thing - I think the majority of people with tinnitus have that. I think I've always had that. When I didn't have tinnitus, I could manage to create a hissing sound with moving my jaw up front. Now, when I do that, it seems like I'm worsening my tinnitus, but it could also just be that same sound that gets layed over the tinnitus.

 

[Drone Draper]

There's a quote by Samuel Beckett that's often been adapted to modern settings.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."

If this technology doesn't work for you, a future iteration could. I know that seems like a platitude, especially coming from a newbie to this condition, but don't lose faith until you've tried the tongue tickler.

 

[Paulmanlike]

I'm not sure I do though. I have multiple tones in each ear, not a single tone. My tinnitus can change from mild to high (although it's been high for a few months now), and it has some somatic properties (when I clench my jaw, or yawn, it makes a part of it louder, but not all).

Would that comply?

As Dr. Ross O'Neill said when Steve asked about tones - number of tones/pitch/tonality - he replied that doesn't matter.

As @hans799 explained earlier this treatment isn't aimed at targeting the tinnitus tones (like ACRN for example). It's aimed at on changing the neurons right through the auditory system to where sound is processed (mid brain, brain stem, thalamus, auditory cortex). So the tones and how many there are would not matter.

A lot of people's tinnitus change either hourly, daily, weekly, this is normal in tinnitus. Again, what reason is there why this wouldn't work if you are driving plasticity to return neurons to a normal state?

Also a lot of people have somatic elements - you still have neurons acting haywire. I do know tinnitus obviously caused by neck injuries was an exclusion criteria.

Stop thinking too much about it my man, I think we all got equal shots of us it working of us all who have subjective tinnitus. And it may just mean further tweaking for those who don't respond first time round. Bimodal is all very new.

 

[Bob den Hartog]

Also, I forgot her name, but there was one girl who was in the trial, who said during the trial she thought it didn't do anything. Then, after the trial ended, she started to see improvement on her tinnitus all of a sudden. So, even if you use that thing for 12 weeks and nothing happens, doesn't mean it can't improve afterwards.

 

[Paulmanlike]

The burning question for responders is that would continued/longer use of this treatment - eventually make the tinnitus disappear altogether? I don't want to get too carried away, and I think Dr. Ross O'Neill was being modest when he said that they needed to be responsible for suggesting a cure, but there were people who said that it went away. The older dear said hers was gone.

I will certainly be using it past the 12 weeks period if it just keeps going down and down to see if it would disappear. I mean if you're driving neuroplasticity by doing it over and over again, then why not. But I'll also be happy with a reduction.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE that this was only tested for 12 weeks at 60 minutes a day. They can only report the data they've got. So they wouldn't know, but would logic say continued use would correspond to continued improvement?

It's also like would tinnitus eventually return after the 12 month mark... so many questions and not enough answers.

 

[ajc]

The burning question for responders is that would continued/longer use of this treatment - eventually make the tinnitus disappear altogether? I don't want to get too carried away, and I think Dr. Ross O'Neill was being modest when he said that they needed to be responsible for suggesting a cure, but there were people who said that it went away. The older dear said hers was gone.

I will certainly be using it past the 12 weeks period if it just keeps going down and down to see if it would disappear. I mean if you're driving neuroplasticity by doing it over and over again, then why not. But I'll also be happy with a reduction.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE that this was only tested for 12 weeks at 60 minutes a day. They can only report the data they've got. So they wouldn't know, but would logic say continued use would correspond to continued improvement?

It's also like would tinnitus eventually return after the 12 month mark... so many questions and not enough answers.

All of this is pure conjecture/speculation. Why not just wait until the device is released and we get real patient testimonials? For all we know we could be in for a sore disappointment... another ACRN but better marketed and "tested"

 

[grate_biff]

All of this is pure conjecture/speculation. Why not just wait until the device is released and we get real patient testimonials? For all we know we could be in for a sore disappointment... another ACRN but better marketed and "tested"

But @Paulmanlike has many good points and he keeps this alive with very informative and healthy speculations while we wait. I think he is spot on on what we might expect from this and being cautiously optimistic. I would like to thank him for it.

So, thank you @Paulmanlike

 

[_Patrick_]

As @hans799 explained earlier this treatment isn't aimed at targeting the tinnitus tones (like ACRN for example). It's aimed at on changing the neurons right through the auditory system to where sound is processed (mid brain, brain stem, thalamus, auditory cortex). So the tones and how many there are would not matter.

Yes I remember, although one may think that the more tones you have the more complex your « neuronal situation » is. But yes I will stop overthinking, you are right. That's my biggest issue in life lol.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[_Patrick_]

Also, I forgot her name, but there was one girl who was in the trial, who said during the trial she thought it didn't do anything. Then, after the trial ended, she started to see improvement on her tinnitus all of a sudden. So, even if you use that thing for 12 weeks and nothing happens, doesn't mean it can't improve afterwards.

That's good to know. Although if nothing happened to me within 12 weeks I think I would start to freak out.

 

[TimmyC]

All of this is pure conjecture/speculation. Why not just wait until the device is released and we get real patient testimonials? For all we know we could be in for a sore disappointment... another ACRN but better marketed and "tested"

While you could be right, there is little chance (from my understanding) that this will be in the same camp. I may not have been around for ACRN, but Dr. Susan Shore is highly respected, and when everyone in the community was shocked by her findings, I think she really did find something special.

I highly doubt it's a "cure" but I feel these bimodal devices (maybe not just Neuromod) will be actually helpful for most people.

 

[TimmyC]

Yes I remember, although one may think that the more tones you have the more complex your « neuronal situation » is. But yes I will stop overthinking, you are right. That's my biggest issue in life lol.

Thanks for the answer.

Your anxiety plays a huge role in your tinnitus perception. I notice that sometimes (and it feels like for no reason) my tones change and get harder to mask, but really I know it's the same all the time. Working with CBT and therapy of any kind will help your perception, so you should really give that a shot.

 

[Paulmanlike]

@TimmyC

Who was it that came up with bimodal neuromodulation in the first place? From what I understand, Shore's work came from University of Michigan. The only difference I see between Shore and Lim is that Shore's is based on auditory and somatosensory neuromodulation whereas Lim's is auditory stimulation and trigeminal nerve stimulation. But both have the same alleged mechanism of action.
That being said, Shore has only got a pilot study of 20 people whereas Lim and Neuromod have 3 trials wrapping up of over 500 patients.

With Shore's completion date being 2022/23 of her 100 patient study - hers appears to be well lagging behind. Although she made headlines with that 20 patient study, Neuromod don't appear to have made any headlines with all these trials.

Why did Shore make headlines while Neuromod's trials have remained elusive?

I really hope that once the peer review papers come in and if it's that positive they get lots of media attention, drawing people to it. More people on it = more evidence.

@ajc

I was around for ACRN. I sat more on the fence and even considered buying it at one point, however once I picked myself up out of the desperation and depression tinnitus drives you in, I saw clarity and stepped back for something better to come... could that be Neuromod? Again, I will be keeping a close eye on it and dissecting every bit of information that comes to light. I won't be the first to buy Neuromod when it's out and I sure as hell will know everything I can before going for it.

Tinnitus drove me to this way, have no trust in treatments for tinnitus. I question everything.

 

[TimmyC]

@TimmyC

Who was it that came up with bimodal neuromodulation in the first place? From what I understand, Shore's work came from University of Michigan. The only difference I see between Shore and Lim is that Shore's is based on auditory and somatosensory neuromodulation whereas Lim's is auditory stimulation and trigeminal nerve stimulation. But both have the same alleged mechanism of action.
That being said, Shore has only got a pilot study of 20 people whereas Lim and Neuromod have 3 trials wrapping up of over 500 patients.

With Shore's completion date being 2022/23 of her 100 patient study - hers appears to be well lagging behind. Although she made headlines with that 20 patient study, Neuromod don't appear to have made any headlines with all these trials.

Why did Shore make headlines while Neuromod's trials have remained elusive?

I'm not sure why Susan Shore made all those headlines last year, but I assume it's because she was the first to grasp bimodal stimulation (from what I can gather). Neuromod lists her studies in rats as a big proponent, as well as Hubert Lim's studies. I'm unsure who truly discovered bimodal stimulation but either way hers caught on last year in a big way.

Regardless, I think this is a big step in the right direction. With any chronic condition, there will always be doubt and speculation, but all we have is hope. At least someone is trying. Biotech companies could potentially save the world. Even Elon Musk is creating Neuralink, because we know the brain controls the body, so the better we harness the brain, the better we control the body. We may not find a "cure" extremely soon, but I do believe that with all of the light shed on psychology and neurology now, people actually give a sh*t. No one cared about this stuff 20 years ago, but thanks to the vast strength of the internet and communication we can see that we need cures for these conditions.

 

[_Patrick_]

Your anxiety plays a huge role in your tinnitus perception. I notice that sometimes (and it feels like for no reason) my tones change and get harder to mask, but really I know it's the same all the time. Working with CBT and therapy of any kind will help your perception, so you should really give that a shot.

I never quite understood this perception thing. In my case, some tones in the right ear can flare up, or disappear. When they do (disappear), even if I lock myself in a quiet room and try to carefully listen and look for them, they are not there, purely and simply. In other cases (most of the time), they pierce through any loud masking audio I might have.

So there is an "objective" trait to those tones, they can or cannot be present, and when they are, they can be present at various degrees of intensity and volume.

What I understand about perception, is that sometimes, I have quite mild tinnitus and it doesn't bother me much, and other times, the same exact tinnitus can generate some anxiety. But in any case, when it's loud as hell, no peace of mind can be found.

I'm trying some relaxation therapy/sophrology of sorts in two days, since my tinnitus was perfectly manageable for years but has flared up two months ago. We'll see where that goes.

Sorry for the digression. We can go back to topic.