My Posting Place
- Thread starter threefirefour
- Start date
Member
- Jun 13, 2019
- 1,108
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Started with a cold, possibly worsened by medication/noise
Interesting, I was not up to speed as I was stuck with reading Chalmers. I tend to agree consciousness does not arise from computational activity and that Turing tests do not prove consciousness (Chinese room argument). Dennett has been in a war with Searle on this for years. I'm not sure about Penrose (but glad he won a super deserved Nobel prize recently for physics, after being ridiculously abused by the academic AI community for his ideas on AI and consciousness). If you have not read it yet I recommend "one half of a manifesto" by Lanier, it's old but it's fun. What you wrote reminded me also of Vasubandhu and the Yogacara school of Buddhism.
Dennete was one of the first ones in the philosophy of mind, before Chalmers showed up shook the meta. Before David Chalmers, it was pretty much substance dualist vs materialist debates. Most of Denette's lectures are targeted at substance dualist, not panpsychism or idealism.
Prominent neuroscientist like Anil Seth and Christof Koch are skeptical of mind uploading and the computational theory of mind. They seem to be leaning towards the integrated information theory model, which once again I don't understand. Outside of it being non-computational. Lot's of people in the AI world are skeptical about the singularity. But yeah, it does seem they do think computer power = consciousness.
I made a post here that shows evidence of consciousness in a unicelluar 1 mm trumpet shaped organism called Stentor Roselli.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/posts/554032/ Researchers tried to make a computer algorithm to mimick Stentor's behavior, and failed.
@Shizune
Have you had a hearing test at ENT or seen an Audiologist? If so what treatment have they recommended for your oversensitivity to sound?
Michael
- Jun 13, 2019
- 1,108
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Started with a cold, possibly worsened by medication/noise
Need to look that up, unfortunately my reading is not good with this electric storm in my head. I used to love these themes, but after the severe tinnitus I struggle to read anything, let alone highly speculative material like this
However I wanted to say that the Chinese room argument by Searle predates Dennet and remains a key issue for Dennet.
On consciousness it has always been very difficult to understand what is going on. There are a group of clever people calling themselves mysterians who claim we cannot know how consciousness work.
I was mentioning Lanier and his polemic against what he calls cyber totalitarians.
I found this in a paper on robotic automation:
"At a more fundamental level, the related advances of Artificial Intelligence (AI) have caused a lively debate that continues over the years. One can easily witness extremes in this space too. Consider the bestseller books from Hofstadter (1979), a cult book by now, and especially Kurzweil (1999, 2006), supporting "strong AI" and predicting a machine singularity. In the ironic words of Lanier (2000), one of the pioneers of virtual reality, authors and friends he humorously calls "cybernetic totalists" espouse a number of beliefs that could be roughly described as follows.
First, cybernetic patterns of information provide the ultimate and best way to understand reality.
Second, people are cybernetic patterns.
Third, subjective experience doesn't exist and if it exists it is unimportant, being an ambient or peripheral effect.
Fourth, one can extrapolate Darwin's findings outside biology to obtain the singular, superior Darwinian description of all creativity and culture.
Fifth, information systems will be accelerated qualitatively and quantitatively by Moore's law.
Finally, sixth and most dramatic, in Lanier's words, "biology and physics will merge with computer science (becoming biotechnology and nanotechnology), resulting in life and the physical universe becoming mercurial; achieving the supposed nature of computer software. […] Computers […] will overwhelm all the other cybernetic processes, like people, and will fundamentally change the nature of what's going on in the familiar neighborhood of Earth […] maybe in about the year 2020. To be a human after that moment will be either impossible or something very different than we now can know" (Lanier 2000, 2010).
A heated debate on whether a machine adopting computational algorithms can really reach human intelligence has developed over the years, jointly with the related question on whether machines can have subjective experiences and be conscious. Chalmers (1995) formulates the following related questions:
Q1: What does it take to simulate a human being's physical action?
Q2: What does it take to evoke conscious awareness?
Q3: What does it take to explain conscious awareness?
For each of the three questions, one may answer that:
(C) Computation alone is enough,
(P) Physics is enough, but physical features beyond computation are required, or
(N) Not even physics is enough.
In terms of the three questions, Chalmers argues that Descartes would be Q1=N, whereas strong AI people would probably say Q1=C, Q2=C,Q3=C, while Penrose (1994) argues Q1=P, Q2=P, without saying much on Q3, and Chalmers himself declares he believes that Q1=C, Q2=C, Q3=N.
In other words, Chalmers believes that while a human being's intelligent behaviour can be simulated computationally and that conscious awareness can be evoked computationally, it cannot be explained computationally.
Penrose instead argues that human intelligent behaviour cannot even be simulated computationally, nor can conscious awareness be evoked with a computational method.
The latter is also the position of Searle's (1980) with his famous Chinese Room experiment, where he sets up a thought experiment meaning to show that the Turing test cannot detect conscious awareness. More generally, as Cole (2014) explains, Searle means to reach the broader conclusion of refuting the theory that human minds are computer-like computational or information processing systems, a position related to computational theories of the mind and to "strong AI". Searle suggests that minds must result from biological processes; computers can at best simulate these processes. Searle's arguments have been vigorously challenged by AI researchers and philosophers among others, see for example Dennett (1991). The debate has important implications for semantics, philosophy of language and mind, theories of consciousness, computer science and cognitive science."
Phendran
Member
Wind chimes will suffice, they will. :3To the first question, imaging got better for one! We can see parts of nerves in clear detail. It makes it much easier to correlate problems with structures and parts of structures.
A few other things, too. like AI mapping making advancements possible with less man hours, etc.
To your second, I am the worst person to ask. The only music that sounds remotely normal to me are mid-low wind chimes one note at a time
You're right in your optimism. Science and technology is fascinating to pour over and dig through.
My spike from last week seems to be calming down.
I hope I can eat pig's feet at New Year's.
Do you know what caused the spike in your tinnitus? Have you been using: headphones, earbuds, headset, noise cancelling headphones? Do you work in a noisy environment or listen to loud music through speakers? Many people that experience tinnitus spikes have Noise induced tinnitus and often untreated hyperacusis.
Michael
Phendran
Member
This usually means that you have oversensitivity to your auditory system that hasn't been treated. It is hyperacusis not necessarily with pain. One of the best treatments for this is sound therapy. You can try self help or see an Audiologist that specialises in tinnitus and hyperacusis treatment. This normally requires the wearing of white noise generators to desensitise the oversensitivity of your ears and auditory system. Please click on the link below and read my post: Hyperacusis, as I see it. You might find my other post helpful too titled: Are Spikes from Loud Noise Permanent.
All the best
Michael
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/are-spikes-from-loud-noise-permanent.18156/
sensualmosquito
Member
- Jul 11, 2020
- 81
- Tinnitus Since
- June 2020
- Cause of Tinnitus
- 6-8 khz HL, T and H from gunshots
I'm one of the founders. So if this thread becomes a partial new age bookstore, so be it.
update, oh you are referring to Leigh.
Please show some manners and respect, Contrast and not refer to me using my surname. My agreement to keep away from MPP was with Threefirefour. Since he is no longer here I have returned.
Michael
You are putting researchers and your personal doctors in the same category and they don't belong that way.
Once breakthroughs are actually on the market, the clinical doctors suddenly get on board:
See Luxturna, for instance.
- Sep 21, 2016
- 1,051
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011 - T, 2016- H, relapsed 2019
- Cause of Tinnitus
- noise-induced
Also, even though there are many ENTs and audiologists who admittedly aren't so helpful or empathetic, there are also many who are very eager to usher in the regenerative drugs e.g. the audiologist who spoke on a webinar with Carl LeBel (can't remember her name). And Frequency Therapeutics said they have had an enthusiastic reception from the clinical community at conferences etc.
So there are clinicians out there who do believe in the promise of regenerative medicine @Contrast and if these treatments are approved a lot more will be on board.
Absolutely and you find more of them at research universities vs just your local ENT clinic.
Phendran
Member
I think you're right in some ways, but being the first doesn't need to mean that we stop until we get what we deserve.
If something that works well reaches the market then that will be something.
I guess I'm not prepared to give up just yet. When I first got disabled I thought this would be the year I'd be back to normal at the latest, but now I feel like it's up in the air generally, even if some treatments look promising.
There's a saying here in Sweden "Ropa inte hej innan du är över bäcken".
"Don't celebrate until you are across the brook".
I guess that's where we should sit for now. Until we're better we're not better, and we won't say we're better until we are.
I am bored out of my mind. I'm watching lots of tutorials on how to make vector graphics and hopefully in a few weeks I shit out some creativity. Unlike most people, who use high quality production software like Adobe Illustrator on a eternal subscription. I am forced to use a garbage tier alternative called Inkscape. I don't pay, so computers do not stay out of the way and require a lot more manual effort.
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As far as science goes, Frequency Therapeutic's progenitor cell activation and Dr. Liberman's research on NT-3 to promote synaptic preservation/regeneration is realistic and could happen in five years or so, for you guys. But we are no where near the point of nerve regeneration, especially an organ like the cochlea. Anything to do with cochlear or trigeminal nerve noxacusis is not yet scientifically tackled, so don't be optimistic about cures for that.
The best thing we can do is use the forum to piss off the TRT-tards by showing them empirical evidence of TRT tying with placebo. Like I showed in this post.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/posts/562633/
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As far as science goes, Frequency Therapeutic's progenitor cell activation and Dr. Liberman's research on NT-3 to promote synaptic preservation/regeneration is realistic and could happen in five years or so, for you guys. But we are no where near the point of nerve regeneration, especially an organ like the cochlea. Anything to do with cochlear or trigeminal nerve noxacusis is not yet scientifically tackled, so don't be optimistic about cures for that.
The best thing we can do is use the forum to piss off the TRT-tards by showing them empirical evidence of TRT tying with placebo. Like I showed in this post.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/posts/562633/
- Jan 1, 2019
- 708
- Tinnitus Since
- Steadily worsening since 2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Unknown
We've missed you a lot!
I feel like an old war general that has severed in battle on a tinnitus forum for most of his life. It's nice to see an old colleague. If MPP is going to be revived it's going to need a new generation of users, and @MrCrybaby will be my successor. Right now, I am working on projects to make mock art of tinnitus supplements scams.
Of course, but most doctors don't read journals and keep up with new research to a great extent. They just don't make the time except when they need to for confining education (or when they actually care for specific cases). Instead, they wait until the therapies come out and then the drug reps (that's their primary job) schedule lunch meetings with whole clinics and educate the doctors on their product and how to use it.
Once something is clinically useful and available, doctor education is put into the marketing budget for the drug or therapy.
You don't realize how pathetic it is. They are not even aware of the diseases' existence.They will have a ton of propaganda as their protocol response. Unlike tinnitus, most other diseases do not have funding or priority from the US military.
It's an unfavorable scenario, that's what I am saying.
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