MemberWell then if that's the hang up then don't go to Dr. Shim, duh? If you want your tinnitus treated, then just try. Or you can sit around and be a baby and wait for corporations and the government to do everything for you like knobs.
Solsaem Clinic (Dr. Minbo Shim) Experience
- Thread starter JohnAdams
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Print out my research, get an appointment at an ENT and when they see you, talk to them, and simply ask them to try this. Don't be afraid of the word "no". Just be nice and professional, and most importantly, research this thoroughly.
$18,000 is not something I blink at. I am not going to spend that type of money on anything until I see some evidence about his specific treatment. I understand the studies you showed regarding PRP, but I want to know more about his specific treatment.
If it was $1,000 then my standards would be loosened, but $18,000 is too much money to blindly dive in.
- Jan 25, 2013
- 3,573
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- TMJ disorder, airplane barotrauma, noise exposure.
Probably nothing, but the vast majority of us have local audiograms done when seeing an ENT in our own country. They usually require them before seeing the doctor. The ENT I had seen said my HF hearing loss is causing my tinnitus. I have left sided TMJD also so that confuses matters.
My personal ENT told me that there wasn't enough information on this type of treatment to say it is effective in treating tinnitus. To be fair he may not keep up with this sort of stuff.
On the other hand there is no doctor in the US that does this type of treatment from researching it myself. If it was truly as effective as you say, I find it surprising no doctor in the US is doing it as well.
I'm not saying you're a liar. I believe that you believe it works.
I also never slandered Shim. I am just trying to get some evidence to prove the efficiency of his specific treatment.
- Jan 25, 2013
- 3,573
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- TMJ disorder, airplane barotrauma, noise exposure.
Sorry, I'm not a cop. It was a joke. I thought you knew of the popular homicide detective Columbo from the series that started in the early seventies and restarted in the late 80's I believe. Peter Falk died in 2011.
Maybe it's because they don't know anything about regenerative medicine in the first place, or IGF-1, or that PRP contains IGF-1. Do you actually think most doctors actually do research in the first place? How many stories are there on this site alone about ENT's that don't even understand tinnitus and or hyperacusis and give conflicting information?
I never said you did. I'm talking about other users.
What you want is a major corporation to invest in FDA trials to get this thoroughly tested and approved, which will never happen because there is zero intellectual property in this. You cannot patent platelet rich plasma. Why would they put up the money knowing that as soon as it's published, then any ENT with a PRP kit would be allowed to replicate it without paying them?
Also, there are human trials showing IGF-1 restores hearing, and that IGF-1 caused supporting cells to proliferate in cochlear explants. IGF-1 is in PRP. AND that IGF-1 increases Beta-Catenin inside cells.
There is a mountain of evidence that IGF-1 can treat hearing loss and thus tinnitus.
Think about it.
Honestly John, I don't know how you handle listening to all this.
Jack, that statement, about Dr. Shim fudging the results on testing, is beyond absurd. It's dumb.
First off, Dr Shim doesn't operate the sound booth and equipment. His nurse does it, and the machine records the answers. The computer computes the results. No one can fudge anything. Have you ever gotten an audiogram? I've gotten about a dozen in my life.
In addition, I've gotten an audiogram, from Affiliated Audiologists here in AZ every summer for the last 5 years. My results from their testing matched what Dr. Shim's equipment produced.
Any fudging you think is in ignorance. You shouldn't be suggesting that goes on.
Jack, that statement, about Dr. Shim fudging the results on testing, is beyond absurd. It's dumb.
First off, Dr Shim doesn't operate the sound booth and equipment. His nurse does it, and the machine records the answers. The computer computes the results. No one can fudge anything. Have you ever gotten an audiogram? I've gotten about a dozen in my life.
In addition, I've gotten an audiogram, from Affiliated Audiologists here in AZ every summer for the last 5 years. My results from their testing matched what Dr. Shim's equipment produced.
Any fudging you think is in ignorance. You shouldn't be suggesting that goes on.
I think there's a lot of dogmatic thinking in the ENT world but hopefully that will change. All the treatments I've received for tinnitus have been psychological. I've had counselling, mindfulness and relaxation techniques to help me cope which is great, but I'd prefer it if my ears/brain would just shut the hell up irrespective of any hearing losses.
As I said, I am being skeptical of everything. It would stupid of me not to for $18,000.
There have been cases before of doctors fudging the numbers regarding the efficiency of their treatments. I'd rather be skeptical and be wrong than trusting and be wrong.
It's cool. Just protect them ears and keep us posted about any improvements, so then they can accuse you of being a delusional liar like me. You'd think people that actually had bothersome hearing loss and tinnitus would be a little more open minded, especially considering that I've made the knowledge open source.
Hi. Do you mind posting your 3rd party audiogram next to the one you got from Dr. Shim?
- Jan 25, 2013
- 3,573
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- TMJ disorder, airplane barotrauma, noise exposure.
There are definitely some unscrupulous doctors out there that love the high life that money can bring, but it's hard to judge which ones they are. References are always preferable than going in blind.
She gets it!
Can you request a copy of it from him? I'm sure he has it in his records and it's a reasonable request after paying $18,000 for a treatment. Then we can compare your most recent one beforehand and his to see how close they were.
I do just want to say that @Jack Straw is the definition of healthy skepticism. He is a cool dude. Which makes sense because the Grateful Dead is cool dude music. He has not crossed the line into making tragic leaps of logic into ad-hominin attacks. He wants evidence, and that's totally logical.
The problem here is this:
When I was in grad school, one of my professors was a biomedical researcher that has dealt with the FDA. He made it perfectly clear to us how the system works and how if cures for a disease were found today that were cheap/free, that we would never get them because the way it's set up, there has to be proprietary products or some intellectual property involved. Well, that's the case here. Blood and bone marrow cannot be patented, therefore no company would invest the money into it to prove it out, let alone get it through FDA trials, which are super expensive.
So this creates a situation where the only medicine that can "get out" has to be made out of a proprietary compound, or process. This creates an assumptive paradigm that approved medicines cannot come from nature, or our bodies.
The problem here is this:
When I was in grad school, one of my professors was a biomedical researcher that has dealt with the FDA. He made it perfectly clear to us how the system works and how if cures for a disease were found today that were cheap/free, that we would never get them because the way it's set up, there has to be proprietary products or some intellectual property involved. Well, that's the case here. Blood and bone marrow cannot be patented, therefore no company would invest the money into it to prove it out, let alone get it through FDA trials, which are super expensive.
So this creates a situation where the only medicine that can "get out" has to be made out of a proprietary compound, or process. This creates an assumptive paradigm that approved medicines cannot come from nature, or our bodies.
I get your point but I think asking for 3rd party audiograms is different from demanding FDA double blind, placebo controlled studies.
No that's good. I'm not against that at all. I just don't have any yet.
I want as much evidence as possible because I already know the evidence will support this.
That's why I'm advocating for people to try and get this procedure done anywhere they can.
I have a friend on the other side of the world that is trying to do this locally. I have another friend that lives very close to me and I'm trying to talk him into being a guinea pig for this if and when I find a local ENT that is interested. Both are members here and swell chaps.
You should post these two audiograms side by side so we can put to rest to the that Dr. Shim's audiograms are trustworthy. Not for me but for those who are are implying Dr. Shim could be falsifying his audiograms. Just so we can eliminate one point of argument out of this thread.
I agree with you 100% John, the medical community doesn't do their job. They've just been waving their hands and saying 'live with it' for years and they continue to do so today even though we're on the brink of curing this crap.
It's a shame that the patients and private institutions need to do all the work. ENTs and Doctors(Not all, but most) just want to collect their paycheck at the end of the day.
I decided to catch up with this thread because @JohnAdams is going around lately evangelizing "regenerative medicine" and actively bashing Neuromod and last I checked, his treatment had accomplished nothing.
Now he's saying he suffered some undefinable "acoustic trauma" which made him go back and dump thousands of dollars for more treatment and now the pearly gates are opening for him?
For all we know the guy may have gotten paid off in exchange for becoming a sock-puppet.
There's obviously big money to be made doing this procedure, which is true for all experimental treatments conducted in the gray-market that prey on the desperate. I don't deny that some experimental treatments do work. I had a friend who went to the Cayman Islands for immunotherapy for cancer and it seemed to help her get into remission, but then again, the cancer came back and she died. So how much did it really help? We may never know. When these things are done wild-west fashion there's no rigor to it and it becomes very anecdotal.
My opinion is that all this boils down to how much risk one is willing to make. I am willing to dump $5K or so into Lenire if by the time it shows up in the US I'm reading lots and lots of credible positive testimonials and it's starting to get written up in the MSM. I would not be willing to risk over $10 plus the travel and the pain of being injected over and over again based on what we know about Shim so far.
Another thing that bothers me is the conspiratorial tone from JohnAdams as far as regulatory approval. It kind of reminds me of the companies that tried to sell these "water car" addons when gas prices spiked around 2008. They hooked up to your alternator and cracked water into hydrogen and then the hydrogen would get mixed in with the gasoline. They claimed it was a net gain in efficiency despite the drain on the alternator but the physics was shoddy. But push them on all this and they would talk about how "they" wouldn't want you to know about all this. Same thing with the Steorn Orbo zero-point-energy device or the EESTOR supercapacitor (feel free to google them).
Scams rely on conspiracy theories as an excuse for why their technology hasn't hit the mainstream. Occam's razor would say it's because they don't work, but people these days are conspiratorial by nature...because internet.
But here's the thing. This "regenerative medicine" DOES have a legitimate track. FX-322. We don't HAVE to rely on flying to Korea and dropping $10-20K on this. We just wait for FX-322 and similar approaches to work their way through R&D.
And like I said, if you're really suffering and can't wait, put your money into a Lenire treatment when it becomes available.
As far as this being "open source" and how this is such a noble thing rather than the big bad medical industrial complex, that does nothing to make the treatment affordable, so I don't know how that's at all relevant. If by "open source" he means that it's low-tech and simple, then Shim is absolutely price gouging and that's not something to reward. If this really DOES work then word of mouth would spread and you'd wind up with a cottage industry of competitors for outpatient procedures which would drive down prices. That it hasn't happened yet means either it's too early to tell or it's not as effective as he says it is.
In my darkest hour, @JohnAdams weighed in and said some kind words, I will never forget that. I have always been supportive of him and continue to be.
I built the house I live in, I have made sculptures in bronze, steel, and wood. I am not a scientist, and don't consider myself a "normie".
Please don't get defensive, I am not attacking.
On April 24th you said you would post your audiograms.
Audiograms would help things "scientifically".
I actually said I was more interested in your subjective feelings about your hearing and your tinnitus.
Much of what I've learned about the inner ear has been from JohnAdams and reading threads and publications about regeneration. Prior to my hearing loss and tinnitus I was happy enough making art, swimming with my kids, teaching in schools and had no reason to know about the inner workings of the ear and hearing regeneration.
I'm a teacher with three kids. I have always been interested in regenerative therapy because it is the ultimate cure, for those with hearing loss.
Having said that, audiograms would have spoken volumes and for what it's worth, @GlennAz, nobody is on a witch hunt. John is very outspoken and has strong opinions, there is nothing wrong with discourse and debate. If you want to post pictures of cherry blossoms, that's cool, but most sufferers with hearing loss were interested in audiograms.
I will copy JohnAdams' synthesis of the theories behind the therapy and try and find a few knowledgeable people to have a look. That won't be easy, as it's beyond the expertise of your average ENT. I need to find me a scientist...
There are two members from Korea on this forum, I am not sure they could add anything. But you would think with a revolutionary discovery, the Doctor would be famous In Korea and probably be in the papers or TV news at some point.
I still sincerely, honestly, hope that JohnAdams' ears are healed up and his tinnitus is banished from earth. I wish the same for GlennAz. My tinnitus is loud and unrelenting as I write this. So I'm hoping for good news, I would like to be free from this condition, as we all would.
I built the house I live in, I have made sculptures in bronze, steel, and wood. I am not a scientist, and don't consider myself a "normie".
Please don't get defensive, I am not attacking.
On April 24th you said you would post your audiograms.
Audiograms would help things "scientifically".
I actually said I was more interested in your subjective feelings about your hearing and your tinnitus.
Much of what I've learned about the inner ear has been from JohnAdams and reading threads and publications about regeneration. Prior to my hearing loss and tinnitus I was happy enough making art, swimming with my kids, teaching in schools and had no reason to know about the inner workings of the ear and hearing regeneration.
I'm a teacher with three kids. I have always been interested in regenerative therapy because it is the ultimate cure, for those with hearing loss.
Having said that, audiograms would have spoken volumes and for what it's worth, @GlennAz, nobody is on a witch hunt. John is very outspoken and has strong opinions, there is nothing wrong with discourse and debate. If you want to post pictures of cherry blossoms, that's cool, but most sufferers with hearing loss were interested in audiograms.
I will copy JohnAdams' synthesis of the theories behind the therapy and try and find a few knowledgeable people to have a look. That won't be easy, as it's beyond the expertise of your average ENT. I need to find me a scientist...
There are two members from Korea on this forum, I am not sure they could add anything. But you would think with a revolutionary discovery, the Doctor would be famous In Korea and probably be in the papers or TV news at some point.
I still sincerely, honestly, hope that JohnAdams' ears are healed up and his tinnitus is banished from earth. I wish the same for GlennAz. My tinnitus is loud and unrelenting as I write this. So I'm hoping for good news, I would like to be free from this condition, as we all would.
The argument has also made this thread oddly entertaining.
Thank you.
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Impressive! Dr. Shim should PAY you to write his long-awaited paper for him. Not sure how well the Wikipedia quotes would go over in a journal though.
One more thought while I was picking my kids up at school...
JohnAdams had experienced silence with Turmeric, and his tinnitus was also affected by his sleep. Mine is relentless like @Jazzer's and many others.
If 72 injections and then another trip to Korea can't kick @JohnAdams's mild hearing losses ass and whip his tinnitus, this alone casts serious doubts for me about the efficacy of the treatment.
You're talking potentially 90 to a hundred injections, if that can't regenerate mild hearing loss then folks like me don't stand a chance with this therapy. That's "normie" logic, using the vernacular of the forum.
Forget the audiograms, this in itself is a huge issue. Many people's tinnitus reduces or disappears over the first year or year and a half. To even say this is "better" than FX-322 is just pure braggadocious. "It has more things" (JohnAdams words). I know John was trying to say it would not only regenerate hair cells but also nerves.
So far the therapy seems lacking, but time will tell. If you dish it out, you got to be able to take it. That's only fair. Calling people babies, or knobs, ......well that ain't right.
Hoping good news and reports will be forthcoming. And if not, at least you were brave enough to have tried. I admire your courage and intelligence.
But I do think @JohnAdams you could be a bit more chill when people ask you questions... so be it.
Peace be with you.
JohnAdams had experienced silence with Turmeric, and his tinnitus was also affected by his sleep. Mine is relentless like @Jazzer's and many others.
If 72 injections and then another trip to Korea can't kick @JohnAdams's mild hearing losses ass and whip his tinnitus, this alone casts serious doubts for me about the efficacy of the treatment.
You're talking potentially 90 to a hundred injections, if that can't regenerate mild hearing loss then folks like me don't stand a chance with this therapy. That's "normie" logic, using the vernacular of the forum.
Forget the audiograms, this in itself is a huge issue. Many people's tinnitus reduces or disappears over the first year or year and a half. To even say this is "better" than FX-322 is just pure braggadocious. "It has more things" (JohnAdams words). I know John was trying to say it would not only regenerate hair cells but also nerves.
So far the therapy seems lacking, but time will tell. If you dish it out, you got to be able to take it. That's only fair. Calling people babies, or knobs, ......well that ain't right.
Hoping good news and reports will be forthcoming. And if not, at least you were brave enough to have tried. I admire your courage and intelligence.
But I do think @JohnAdams you could be a bit more chill when people ask you questions... so be it.
Peace be with you.
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