MemberWhere has Glenn posted anything other than nothing negative happened and he is still waiting for results?
Solsaem Clinic (Dr. Minbo Shim) Experience
- Thread starter JohnAdams
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Of course not, that would help us prove that Dr. Sham's treatment does not work.
How convenient he won't provide before and after audiograms (from independent verifiable source).
- May 29, 2015
- 664
- 30
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012
- Cause of Tinnitus
- I had tinnitus for as long as I can remember. Got bad later.
He made a promise to Shim not to release anything until after three months. For regenerative therapy, you cannot expect things to just suddenly work. That's unrealistic for all types of medication. In addition, on here he has reported acoustic trauma as well as him taking a while before noticing any results. His experience actually went along with what Shim warned. It would not make sense to prematurely give the before and after audiograms if he has to wait until the treatment matures and for his acoustic trauma to stabilize. I don't know exactly why it takes around three months for results to appear, but I think it has something to do with neuroplasticity. This would make sense considering how long habituation takes to occur for the ones that are lucky enough to be able to get it.
John could have posted his original audiogram, but that honestly would have been useless information without the "after." The only thing that would have proved is that he went to an audiologist, which wouldn't have been very useful without the "after."
Now he can release it. He had an audiogram done before he went his first time and now before he went back (after 3 months of first treatment).
His first treatment 3 month recover period had past. He can post his before and after now.
We now have no basis to go off of whether the treatment is effective. I know you believe it is, but we have nothing to base it off of besides your opinion.
The only measure we had of its effectiveness is an audiogram done by an external third party in the US.
Yeah, I'm just going to post this again:
Here's how I think Minbo Shim's therapy works. He didn't explain this to me, I put all of this together myself.
First off, this is how hair cell regeneration technology works.
A class of chemicals called notch inhibitors or gamma secretase inhibitors makes contact with the surface of the stem cell. The stem cells in our inner ear are classified as LGR5+ (positive), meaning that it expresses a gene called Leucine-rich repeat-containing G-protein coupled receptor 5.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGR5
Inside the cell there is a protein called Beta-Catenin. This is the finger that throws the "switch" that makes LGR5+ stem cells proliferate, which means divide and regenerate into mature cells, in this case, hair cells in the cochlea. In order for this to occur, enough Beta-Catenin has to enter into the nucleus of the cell.
But, the reason our hair cells aren't regenerating on their own is because once Beta-Catenin is created inside the cell, there is a group of proteins that form something called the Beta-Catenin destruction complex, this destroys the Beta-Catenin before it can enter into the nucleus in enough quantity to activate the proliferation process.
The β-catenin destruction complex.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169527
One way to stop the Beta-Catenin from being destroyed is by activating a cellular signalling pathway called WNT (pronounced wint).
Generation of hair cells in neonatal mice by β-catenin overexpression in Lgr5-positive cochlear progenitors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23918377
This is how drugs like FX-322 work to "wake up" dormant stem cells in the inner ear.
There is a class of proteins involved with many functions in our bodies called growth factors.
One of these growth factors is called insulin-like growth factor 1. IGF-1.
IGF-1 has been shown in multiple human clinical trials to improve hearing recovery.
Insulin-like growth factor 1: A novel treatment for the protection or regeneration of cochlear hair cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25937136
Actually I never noticed this part before but they verified that it causes cochlear supporting cells to proliferate in cochlear explants.
"The mechanisms of IGF1-induced maintenance of hair cell number have been investigated using a cochlear explant culture system, which demonstrated that IGF1 acts on supporting cells, leading to the inhibition of hair cell apoptosis and the proliferation of supporting cells."
Another study, showed that IGF-1 increases cellular Beta-Catenin levels.
Insulin and IGF-1 stimulate the β-catenin pathway through two signalling cascades involving GSK-3β inhibition and Ras activation
https://www.nature.com/articles/1204064
"IGF-1 increased the cytoplasmic levels of β-catenin."
IGF-1 is produced in our bodies, in part in blood platelets.
There is not any blood in our inner ear fluid. Inner ear fluid is different from blood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endolymph
You can create a platelet rich composition of blood by putting drawn blood in a centrifuge which separates the platelets into something called platelet rich plasma, PRP.
PRP contains growth factors, including IGF-1.
The growth factors and other cytokines present in PRP include:
In your middle ear there is a semi-permeable membrane called the round window.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_window
So that's how you can deliver medicine to the cochlea, by filling up the middle ear, via eardrum injection, with a viscous solution containing X substance, it rests in the middle ear and the substance, if molecularly small enough, will diffuse through the round window membrane. That's why the various presentations produced by FrequencyTX, as well as their homepage emphasize that their products are "small molecule drugs", because this is exactly how FX-322 is delivered to the cochlea.
Other neurotrophic compounds are also being investigated to repair lost cochlear synapses by diffusion through the round window membrane.
Round-window delivery of neurotrophin 3 regenerates cochlear synapses after acoustic overexposure
https://www.researchgate.net/public...cochlear_synapses_after_acoustic_overexposure
So that's my theory, that IGF-1 works just like FX-322 to disable the Beta-Catenin destruction complex and cause the stem cells to proliferate into functioning hair cells except that IGF-1 is already produced in our bodies and needs to be manually introduced into the cochlea. Also PRP may be much safer than FX-322 because it is good for healing holes to the eardrum that would be caused by the injection.
Topical use of autologous platelet rich plasma in myringoplasty.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794691
"Topical autologous PRP application during myringoplasty is safe and highly efficient and successful with no reported complication"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794691
Here's how I think Minbo Shim's therapy works. He didn't explain this to me, I put all of this together myself.
First off, this is how hair cell regeneration technology works.
A class of chemicals called notch inhibitors or gamma secretase inhibitors makes contact with the surface of the stem cell. The stem cells in our inner ear are classified as LGR5+ (positive), meaning that it expresses a gene called Leucine-rich repeat-containing G-protein coupled receptor 5.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGR5
Inside the cell there is a protein called Beta-Catenin. This is the finger that throws the "switch" that makes LGR5+ stem cells proliferate, which means divide and regenerate into mature cells, in this case, hair cells in the cochlea. In order for this to occur, enough Beta-Catenin has to enter into the nucleus of the cell.
But, the reason our hair cells aren't regenerating on their own is because once Beta-Catenin is created inside the cell, there is a group of proteins that form something called the Beta-Catenin destruction complex, this destroys the Beta-Catenin before it can enter into the nucleus in enough quantity to activate the proliferation process.
The β-catenin destruction complex.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23169527
One way to stop the Beta-Catenin from being destroyed is by activating a cellular signalling pathway called WNT (pronounced wint).
Generation of hair cells in neonatal mice by β-catenin overexpression in Lgr5-positive cochlear progenitors.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23918377
This is how drugs like FX-322 work to "wake up" dormant stem cells in the inner ear.
There is a class of proteins involved with many functions in our bodies called growth factors.
One of these growth factors is called insulin-like growth factor 1. IGF-1.
IGF-1 has been shown in multiple human clinical trials to improve hearing recovery.
Insulin-like growth factor 1: A novel treatment for the protection or regeneration of cochlear hair cells.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25937136
Actually I never noticed this part before but they verified that it causes cochlear supporting cells to proliferate in cochlear explants.
"The mechanisms of IGF1-induced maintenance of hair cell number have been investigated using a cochlear explant culture system, which demonstrated that IGF1 acts on supporting cells, leading to the inhibition of hair cell apoptosis and the proliferation of supporting cells."
Another study, showed that IGF-1 increases cellular Beta-Catenin levels.
Insulin and IGF-1 stimulate the β-catenin pathway through two signalling cascades involving GSK-3β inhibition and Ras activation
https://www.nature.com/articles/1204064
"IGF-1 increased the cytoplasmic levels of β-catenin."
IGF-1 is produced in our bodies, in part in blood platelets.
There is not any blood in our inner ear fluid. Inner ear fluid is different from blood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endolymph
You can create a platelet rich composition of blood by putting drawn blood in a centrifuge which separates the platelets into something called platelet rich plasma, PRP.
PRP contains growth factors, including IGF-1.
The growth factors and other cytokines present in PRP include:
- platelet-derived growth factor
- transforming growth factor beta
- fibroblast growth factor
- insulin-like growth factor 1
- insulin-like growth factor 2
- vascular endothelial growth factor
- epidermal growth factor
- Interleukin 8
- keratinocyte growth factor
- connective tissue growth factor
In your middle ear there is a semi-permeable membrane called the round window.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_window
So that's how you can deliver medicine to the cochlea, by filling up the middle ear, via eardrum injection, with a viscous solution containing X substance, it rests in the middle ear and the substance, if molecularly small enough, will diffuse through the round window membrane. That's why the various presentations produced by FrequencyTX, as well as their homepage emphasize that their products are "small molecule drugs", because this is exactly how FX-322 is delivered to the cochlea.
Other neurotrophic compounds are also being investigated to repair lost cochlear synapses by diffusion through the round window membrane.
Round-window delivery of neurotrophin 3 regenerates cochlear synapses after acoustic overexposure
https://www.researchgate.net/public...cochlear_synapses_after_acoustic_overexposure
So that's my theory, that IGF-1 works just like FX-322 to disable the Beta-Catenin destruction complex and cause the stem cells to proliferate into functioning hair cells except that IGF-1 is already produced in our bodies and needs to be manually introduced into the cochlea. Also PRP may be much safer than FX-322 because it is good for healing holes to the eardrum that would be caused by the injection.
Topical use of autologous platelet rich plasma in myringoplasty.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794691
"Topical autologous PRP application during myringoplasty is safe and highly efficient and successful with no reported complication"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25794691
- May 29, 2015
- 664
- 30
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012
- Cause of Tinnitus
- I had tinnitus for as long as I can remember. Got bad later.
FYI, I misread what you asked. Thought you said "before leaving". I deleted what I said because of that.
How stupid can someone be... I can't wrap my mind around this, John. You must understand nobody can trust the audiograms Dr. Shim has taken of you? They need to be taken outside of his control.
Why in God's name would you not have done an audiogram independently before going there a second time? You already were stupid the first time around for not doing it, but a second time... It's making me want to kill myself how stupid you are.
This is like science 101...
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I HOPE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND HOW RIDICULOUSLY YOU ARE ACTING!
YOU WERE AFRAID INDEPENDENT AUDIOGRAMS WOULD CONFIRM DR. SHIM'S TREATMENT IS NOT EFFECTIVE. THAT'S THE ONLY REASON YOU DIDN'T DO IT.
I think you blew the opportunity here to verify and validate Shim's treatment. The only scientific evidence we could have gathered from you doing this treatment is now gone. We are back to square one with two testimonials from users. One positive and one neutral until the recovery period finishes.
I understand what the treatment does based on your information provided, but unless I see evidence that Shim's specific treatment is effective with something like an audiogram, I can't give it any credibility. We used this same skepticism when it came to Neuromod, it is only fair to also use it against you.
I hope the next person that goes to Shim gets an audiogram done before going over seas and 3 months out of the recover period. Then we would have some type of scientific evidence whether the treatment actually did anything.
Human perception is not a good indicator of effectiveness, unless we are specifically talking about the emotional change in reaction due to tinnitus.
This thread really has an ability to draw hostile and unfriendly people toward John and Dr. Shim.
If I'm going to get an audiogram 3 months after treatments, I still have 2 more months to go. What should I post? What would you like to see? I do have some pictures in Korea of a Buddhist temple, and some cherry blossoms in bloom.
If I'm going to get an audiogram 3 months after treatments, I still have 2 more months to go. What should I post? What would you like to see? I do have some pictures in Korea of a Buddhist temple, and some cherry blossoms in bloom.
I have before audiograms from him showing my hearing was wrecked, the notches in them perfectly matched the frequency of my tinnitus.
And I fully plan on getting audiograms from an audiologist here in America, so you're little hypothesis is wrong. I never planned on sharing my after audiograms from Shim specifically because of this reason. Can you calm down with your brain spasms?
I also already explained how this treatment works for anyone to try themselves. So now you're basically accusing me of trying to get PRP injected into their ears because I, what, have some deranged desire to see people get PRP injected into their ears? Do you see how stupid that is?
Also, you haven't analyzed and debated my explanation as to how I think PRP works because you can't.
So.... what? I am advocating that people take my info to their own ENT and try and convince them to try it on them. So all of your accusations don't even make any sense.
Can you even invent a motive as to why I would be trying to do that? Zero dollars would hit my pockets. Then there would be other people that could report their experience, from completely different doctors, with completely independent audiograms. I am actually advocating the generation of more independent evidence for this.
Do you see now how ridiculous your logic is?
- May 29, 2015
- 664
- 30
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012
- Cause of Tinnitus
- I had tinnitus for as long as I can remember. Got bad later.
John had results that astonished him. His hearing was clearer and his tinnitus was almost non-existent. Then the "kiss of death" happened, and he felt like all his progress was gone. I understand why you would think he should have posted results in between trips, and I also thought that at one point, but his decision to go back was after regressive trauma, so the example wouldn't have been as pronounced. I think going back shows how much it actually worked for him and his devastation of the regression of the progress that occurred. Ultimately, the "after" audiogram he will show after going back will still show progress and proof of its effectiveness, as long he doesn't have any further trauma.
Just be patient. You'll probably get it very soon.
I hope that his before and after are both done in the US and not by Shim. There would be a conflict of interest if we used his audiograms to show effectiveness of his treatment.
I understand that John believes it worked for him, but it is hard to take someone's word as fact with a treatment costing $18,000. I don't question that John believes it helps, but $18,000 is too much money to base a decision on anecdotal evidence.
That's totally untrue. I'm going to post audiograms from somewhere here in America. My original audiograms from Shim clearly showed my hearing loss notches at the same frequency as my tinnitus.
You guys need to check your logic. It's deplorable.
I am happy you are open to providing evidence.
Do you have an audiogram done before going to Korea? Was it somewhere that you can go back to to get a second one from? Going to the same place again will avoid any type of variability. This will be our basis.
After 3 months of treatment we will need another audiogram done (not from Shim) at the same place.
We will then need some type of proof that you actually went to his clinic. I don't know how you can do this, but pictures of the clinic, pictures of Dr. Shim, copies of bills (your personal info blocked out), etc.
We will need audiograms before and after, and not from Dr. Shim. This is to avoid conflict of interest, which is reasonable from a scientific standpoint.
I am not saying you're lying, Because I believe that you feel it helped you. I am just saying from a scientific standpoint I need some hard science here to back it up.
The before audiogram from Dr. Shim is legit. Unless he magically read my mind and added notches to it that matched the pitch of my tinnitus. I did not tell him what my tinnitus pitch was before hand.
You're still missing the point here. I'm not selling people on Minbo Shim, I'm sharing the knowledge PRP as a treatment for hearing loss and tinnitus. It's like Linux. The knowledge is open source. I have shared this with you. You can pull Minbo's patents and copy them, they are out there. I have even advocated taking this to an independent ENT/otolaryngologist and trying to talk them into doing it. I already know for a fact another member on TTalk is doing exactly that.
Can you request the audiograms from your doctor from when you first got tinnitus?
The first audiogram I ever took in my entire life was in Minbo Shim's clinic. Exactly what could be wrong with those audiograms?
If I were John Adams, I would probably stop visiting tinnitus forums, they seem stressful!
Why are people demanding scientific proof on their terms and then what do they hope it will or won't achieve?
Just think about it.
If it's true that you can restore hearing (and alleviate tinnitus) then you'll have a clinic that can't cope with demand and they will have to raise their prices to eliminate the time wasters....
If it's false you'll then you've got a Dr who's doing serious medical procedures and it would be closed in a heartbeat in any reasonably developed country. This sort of blood work is no joking matter and people talk! It wouldn't take much to shut it if it was dodgy.
And finally if you did find a new, as yet unproven procedure to fix a chronic condition, you aren't under any obligation to 'prove' it to the rest of the world. The results would speak for themselves and the rest would be history.
Just my 2 cents....
Why are people demanding scientific proof on their terms and then what do they hope it will or won't achieve?
Just think about it.
If it's true that you can restore hearing (and alleviate tinnitus) then you'll have a clinic that can't cope with demand and they will have to raise their prices to eliminate the time wasters....
If it's false you'll then you've got a Dr who's doing serious medical procedures and it would be closed in a heartbeat in any reasonably developed country. This sort of blood work is no joking matter and people talk! It wouldn't take much to shut it if it was dodgy.
And finally if you did find a new, as yet unproven procedure to fix a chronic condition, you aren't under any obligation to 'prove' it to the rest of the world. The results would speak for themselves and the rest would be history.
Just my 2 cents....
He stays incredibly busy. Usually there was about 3-4 other people getting treated at a time, and the waiting room is always full. He doesn't only do PRP hearing treatments either. Him and his nurses are running around like crazy all day, doing various nasal surgeries, consulting people, doing hearing tests, treating ear infections etc. All the stuff ENT's do. It's an ENT clinic in the middle of Seoul, a city of ~10 million people.
This. South Korea has a higher average IQ rate, and a much higher literacy rate than America. Their infrastructure is way more developed and they have way more laws. They have gun control, porno is illegal, they have an extremely low homeless population. There is no way he could be operating a clinic openly claiming to treat "adult deafness" and get away with it if it were a scam. He is a licensed doctor and not only that, he did plenty of research including at Heller Lab, where they even discovered that hair cell regeneration is possible in the first place. Our inner hair cells are LGR5+, same with our smelling cells. PRP regenerated smelling cells, that's been shown in peer reviewed human studies. It regenerates hearing loss, and it is because of the IGF-1. IGF-1 has been shown in peer reviewed, scientific studies to cause inner ear supporting cells to proliferate and restore hearing in living human beings in trials involving hundreds of people.
I still have yet to see one argument against this science. IGF-1 restores hearing by causing inner ear hair cells to proliferate, and IGF-1 is in PRP.
Now, naysayers, take this knowledge to an ENT and ask them to try this. You have to treat your ear every other day for 2 weeks. I can even consult you further. FOR FREE! (free = no scam).
There is a very obvious conflict of interest. He could potentially make the initial audiogram seem worse than it is, to increase efficiency when compared to the later audiogram.
Or he could make the initial audiogram worse than it is so when compared to the after audiogram, even if there is no improvement, it will still show an improvement even though there wasn't any.
I don't personally know you or Dr. Shim. I cannot take your or his word on this matter that nothing has been changed from the audiograms or done a different way. There is a huge conflict of interest because of the situation I described above and thus increases the risk of fraud happening.
I'm not saying you or Shim are frauds, I am saying I want to make sure that there is no chance it could happen whether on purpose or by accident. I don't think this is an unreasonable mindset seeing that this procedure costs $18,000.
We want scientific proof so people don't waste $18,000. There are a lot of tinnitus treatments that are scams. We don't know what this is until we can see some proof besides anecdotal evidence. How is this unreasonable? I believe it has helped John, but I want to see some science behind his specific procedure before believing myself.
If it's false people lose $18,000 (a massive amount of money) and risk damaging their hearing. Talking with an ENT, he said any procedure in the inner ear has a massive risk of damaging the cochlea.
I am not trying to prove it to the rest of the world. I am trying to see if it works. Just like other treatments that claimed to treat tinnitus and had people pay in lots of money only to not work. How is this different? People claimed LEVO worked at first too, but it obviously didn't. Would you have taken them at their word back then too?
But I've completely obliterated any potential conflict of interest by giving out the knowledge of this for free and telling people to go and get an independent doctor to do this on them. Unless, all ENT's are secretly in cahoots with Minbo Shim. Or even better, him and I own the PRP kit empire. That and I own millions in stock in the curcumin industry. Bwahahaha.
- May 29, 2015
- 664
- 30
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012
- Cause of Tinnitus
- I had tinnitus for as long as I can remember. Got bad later.
My observations aren't aimed at anyone. I've watched this develop for over a year and I am just saying what I see. If it was a scam it would have been called out by now. Not by us, but by the locals. There's a lot of information on the website too and some of the results aren't that impressive but do show improvements nonetheless.
But the conflict of interest for his treatment still remains since he is the only one in the world that does it.
It's not as simple as walking into an ENT office and asking for PRP.
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