Solsaem Clinic (Dr. Minbo Shim) Experience

[Artemis2K]

At least he got back to you. I asked him this (which is very reasonable and what people should be asking him) and he totally ignored me. He didn't even have the common courtesy to reply.

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My gut feeling is that he preys on people who don't question him or his methods and are happy to accept what he says.

Why is he doubling the price, and why is he telling you that your loss is severe? The language barrier is no excuse. This is a professional environment and we are dealing in large amounts of money and he has absolutely no urgency to explain his methods or even prove its efficacy. It's just plain wrong and he is preying on people's weaknesses (in my opinion). Personally, I think it's a scam and I wouldn't go anywhere near the guy.

He would be doubling the price because of the degree of loss. During the treatment you have to be there for several hours a day while having bone marrow extracted out of your pelvis then injected into the ear. This isn't a holy grail kind of solution. It takes a lot of time and injections.

 

[Drone Draper]

Artemis, are you considering the treatment?

 

[Artemis2K]

Artemis, are you considering the treatment?

Sure when I have the money.

 

[Ed209]

He would be doubling the price because of the degree of loss.

That doesn't make any sense. Drone Draper only has a 25dB notch in his audiogram, so why double the price? He doesn't even have moderate hearing loss let alone severe.

 

[Drone Draper]

Yeah, my hearing loss isn't severe. Severe is -70 to -90db.

I actually have a friend who has about that level of hearing loss in one ear - he is a black metal musician who plays music that sounds like the Cookie Monster screaming over chainsaws. The bad ear hears very little, but, surprisingly, no T.

I do actually have the money for the treatment, but tbh, I think it's weird that he's looking to charge me $18k when he charged John $9k. I guess I should haggle!

 

[Artemis2K]

That doesn't make any sense. Drone Draper only has a 25dB notch in his audiogram, so why double the price? He doesn't even have moderate hearing loss let alone severe.

You are assuming that this is based on a 1LR treatment, but he was speaking as far as his recommendation for reaching a goal of a comfortable level that reduced hearing loss and tinnitus. This would be a 2LR treatment. Again, this isn't a super effective treatment. John had treated both ears. It would take double the amount of time, work, and resources (therefore more money) for Draper to have a result that is as impactful.

If I was selling a product that took many hours of my time, and I had someone I had to monitor lying down in a room taking up space, giving a double of the same amount of work and time for free would be a very foolish business module.

And no, him being in normal range doesn't matter. 25 dB is still quite a lot of damage, and can still affect someone's response to surroundings. Since the treatments aren't super effective, it would take a lot more work, and the goal would be to get it to as close to 10 dB or 0 dB as possible.

 

[Jack Straw]

Dr. Shim got back to me. He said my hearing loss is severe (-25db notch at 4kHZ both ears), I think that's not really considered severe (the audiologist I did see said it was mild), but maybe there's a language barrier here.

He's saying $9k per ear. Hmm. I mean, I do have the money (don't hate the player, hate the game), but $18k.... I will wait and see how John improves.

$9,000 per ear? Didn't @JohnAdams do it for $9,000 total for both ears?

 

[Drone Draper]

You are assuming that this is based on a 1LR treatment, but he was speaking as far as his recommendation for reaching a goal of a comfortable level that reduced hearing loss and tinnitus. This would be a 2LR treatment. Again, this isn't a super effective treatment. John had treated both ears. It would take double the amount of time, work, and resources (therefore more money) for Draper to have a result that is as impactful.

Can you clarify what you're saying here? Didn't John have both ears done too?

 

[Ed209]

You are assuming that this is based on a 1LR treatment, but he was speaking as far as his recommendation for reaching a goal of a comfortable level that reduced hearing loss and tinnitus. This would be a 2LR treatment. Again, this isn't a super effective treatment. John had treated both ears. It would take double the amount of time, work, and resources (therefore more money) for Draper to have a result that is as impactful.

If I was selling a product that took many hours of my time, and I had someone I had to monitor lying down in a room taking up space, giving a double of the same amount of work and time for free would be a very foolish business module.

And no, him being in normal range doesn't matter. 25 dB is still quite a lot of damage, and can still affect someone's response to surroundings. Since the treatments aren't super effective, it would take a lot more work, and the goal would be to get it to as close to 10 dB or 0 dB as possible.

This still doesn't make any sense, at all. It seems to me that Dr Shim makes it up as he goes along. I wouldn't consider his audiogram going from 25dB to 10dB anything remarkable at all, and it certainly wouldn't indicate that his hearing has regenerated. Where are all the controls? This is exactly why we have the peer review process and clinical studies. My audiogram improved by 25dB at some frequencies and I didn't have anything injected into my ear.

I'm only saying this so that others might use caution before queuing up at Dr Shim's office. I wish John all the best, but I don't think anyone else should take him seriously until he himself publishes a trial and proves that it's efficacious. The red flags are so vast that I can't believe anyone is giving him the time of day if I'm being honest.

 

[Artemis2K]

$9,000 per ear? Didn't @JohnAdams do it for $9,000 total for both ears?

Yes. I don't understand how I gave that impression. It is $4,500 an ear per treatment session. Please explain how you got that. I'm on the spectrum so sometimes I mess up.

 

[Ed209]

Yes. I don't understand how I gave that impression. It is $4,500 an ear per treatment session. Please explain how you got that. I'm on the spectrum so sometimes I mess up.

No problem.

 

[Contrast]

I also have a 25 dB notch, that's not severe hearing loss, it's not even mild hearing loss.
Is considered normal for my age.

That ain't normal.

 

[Lane]

He would be doubling the price because of the degree of loss.

Gigantic red flag in my book.

I guess I should haggle!

Just a suggestion for a starting point: Tell him you would like the $9,000 treatment that John got. If you get good results and think there's more benefit to be had, you can always take it from there.

 

[Artemis2K]

Gigantic red flag in my book.
Just a suggestion for a starting point: Tell him you would like the $9,000 treatment that John got. If you get good results and think there's more benefit to be had, you can always take it from there.

Let me rephrase. He's not charging based on the audiogram, but giving an estimation based on the recommended amount of treatments to have for an effectiveness.

$4,500 per ear generally, unless your hearing loss is actually really good, then he'd probably split one ear treatment in half for both ears, like he said to me.

The higher the loss, the more treatments you'd have to have. The amount of treatments you actually get are completely up to you. Kind of like going to see a psychical or occupational therapist, only with blood extraction, ear punctures, not being able to move for a long period of time, and having a very sore behind. (This is why it costs so much, and you also have to remember how much medical expenses are without healthcare anyway.)

Also, I don't recommend trying to haggle after Shim has been trying to improve his method so he could reduce the price... that might get you blocked. Trying to get double of the treatment John had for the same price would certainly make any business owner mad. If you want to save money, go for a 1LR treatment series (I'm going to use that would instead of "session" from now on because it's more accurate and "session" is singular) and wait for first results before deciding on going again, I guess.

 

[JohnAdams]

This still doesn't make any sense, at all. It seems to me that Dr Shim makes it up as he goes along. I wouldn't consider his audiogram going from 25dB to 10dB anything remarkable at all, and it certainly wouldn't indicate that his hearing has regenerated. Where are all the controls? This is exactly why we have the peer review process and clinical studies. My audiogram improved by 25dB at some frequencies and I didn't have anything injected into my ear.

I'm only saying this so that others might use caution before queuing up at Dr Shim's office. I wish John all the best, but I don't think anyone else should take him seriously until he himself publishes a trial and proves that it's efficacious. The red flags are so vast that I can't believe anyone is giving him the time of day if I'm being honest.

@Markku can we just change the title of this thread to "What Ed209 Thinks About Dr. Minbo Shim."

 

[Drone Draper]

Also, I don't recommend trying to haggle after Shim has been trying to improve his method so he could reduce the price... that might get you blocked. Trying to get double of the treatment John had for the same price would certainly make any business owner mad. If you want to save money, go for a 1LR treatment series (I'm going to use that would instead of "session" from now on because it's more accurate and "session" is singular) and wait for first results before deciding on going again, I guess.

Right, so John got the 1LR treatment series, but what he's recommending to me is the 2LR series?

Do I have that right?

 

[Artemis2K]

Right, so John got the 1LR treatment series, but what he's recommending to me is the 2LR series?

Do I have that right?

Yes. I'm sorry for my lousy communication.

 

[vttbx]

This still doesn't make any sense, at all. It seems to me that Dr Shim makes it up as he goes along. I wouldn't consider his audiogram going from 25dB to 10dB anything remarkable at all, and it certainly wouldn't indicate that his hearing has regenerated. Where are all the controls? This is exactly why we have the peer review process and clinical studies. My audiogram improved by 25dB at some frequencies and I didn't have anything injected into my ear.

I'm only saying this so that others might use caution before queuing up at Dr Shim's office. I wish John all the best, but I don't think anyone else should take him seriously until he himself publishes a trial and proves that it's efficacious. The red flags are so vast that I can't believe anyone is giving him the time of day if I'm being honest.

You have near perfect hearing. Something most of us would kill for. Why all the concern in what others do to get better?

 

[Ed209]

You have near perfect hearing. Something most of us would kill for. Why all the concern in what others do to get better?

This is primarily a tinnitus forum and I have severe tinnitus that I can hear 24/7 even whilst in loud environments. I have a piercing dentist drill that fills my head which cuts through almost everything and mixed in with this I have tones in each ear including a lone drone in my left and a mid-tone in my right. Underneath all of this, I've got all kinds of hissing and electrical zapping.

I'd advise one looks at the available evidence before they let their emotions make a decision for them. Especially with the amount of money that's involved. I wanted to bite my tongue on this but some of the stuff being said is absurd and people seem to be falling for it. I figured I should air my views rather than stay silent.

Finally, a notch at 25dB is not going to be noticeable in everyday life. One may find it more difficult to get a perfect score on a speech-in-noise test, but this is true for most of the younger generation who frequently go to gigs and nightclubs and/or use headphones at dangerous volumes. Audiograms are notoriously imprecise so it seems futile to use them as proof of hearing regeneration when ones threshold is already considered normal.

 

[Ed209]

@Markku can we just change the title of this thread to "What Ed209 Thinks About Dr. Minbo Shim."

Without a balanced discussion of the topic at hand, what's the point? Is no one allowed to criticise Dr Shim (even though he brings it on himself)?

If I see a ridiculous statement I will give an opinion on it. He literally just doubled the price for someone with a normal audiogram (arguably a very mild loss) and nobody bats an eyelid? I never even got a response because I asked to see some evidence that it works (before parting with a large chunk of money), and surely at the very least, he should be providing patients with this information anyway?

 

[Artemis2K]

This is primarily a tinnitus forum and I have severe tinnitus that I can hear 24/7 even whilst in loud environments. I have a piercing dentist drill that fills my head which cuts through almost everything and mixed in with this I have tones in each ear including a lone drone in my left and a mid-tone in my right. Underneath all of this, I've got all kinds of hissing and electrical zapping.

I'd advise one looks at the available evidence before they let their emotions make a decision for them. Especially with the amount of money that's involved. I wanted to bite my tongue on this but some of the stuff being said is absurd and people seem to be falling for it. I figured I should air my views rather than stay silent.

Finally, a notch at 25dB is not going to be noticeable in everyday life. One may find it more difficult to get a perfect score on a speech-in-noise test, but this is true for most of the younger generation who frequently go to gigs and nightclubs and/or use headphones at dangerous volumes. Audiograms are notoriously imprecise so it seems futile to use them as proof of hearing regeneration when ones hearing threshold is already considered normal.

"A notch at 25dB is not going to be noticeable in everyday life."

My hearing loss is 15 dB on my left ear. The difference between my left and right is noticeable and can sometimes be nauseating. I have trouble locating things sometimes because the accuracy perceiving sound is no longer as accurate. I bought a locator device that beeps and it is often useless depending on where my wallet ends up (not that I lose it often, but I have had to turn the thing on from occasion after misplacing it at home.) Many musical instruments now sound weird to me, and sometimes is overshadowed by tinnitus. Because I have always had hypersensitivity, my response to the loss has been bad. I was almost driven mad because of the hearing loss. I also have a hell of a time understanding people under background noise. I used to be able to notice every single thing that happened because of my sensitive ears, and I no longer can do that. Every time I hear someone say that such slight loss is trivial, I can't help be frustrated because I notice the difference extremely. People used to comment how great my hearing was and my accuracy of being able to tell what someone was saying from a far distance, and my ability to hear a pin drop from far away as well. I miss that tremendously. I have also had similar tinnitus as you described, but because I'm autistic, and because I have worse loss, it's louder and I "feel" it more.

This has largely taken over my life, and I want it back. That's why I've spent so much time on Dr. Shim, because what I read gave me hope. I put a lot of work into this. Probably almost as much as I have learning about eBay and Amazon ecommerce.

(Edit: idk about why that hyperlink appeared, but whatever.)

 

[Ed209]

Right, so John got the 1LR treatment series, but what he's recommending to me is the 2LR series?

Do I have that right?

John had 72 injections for $9,000 and Drone Draper gets quoted $18,000 for 12? Makes sense.

So essentially, the 2LR series doubles in price but the treatment frequency drastically reduces?

 

[Artemis2K]

Without a balanced discussion of the topic at hand, what's the point? Is no one allowed to criticise Dr Shim (even though he brings it on himself)?

If I see a ridiculous statement I will give an opinion on it. He literally just doubled the price for someone with a normal audiogram (arguably a very mild loss) and nobody bats an eyelid? I never even got a response because I asked to see some evidence that it works (before parting with a large chunk of money), and surely at the very least, he should be providing patients with this information anyway?

He did not double the price. 1+1=2 1+0 does not equal 0.

L*R=1lr
1LR+1LR=2LR. You'd literally be paying for a series of treatments per ear, and 25 dB is on the border of mild hearing loss. It's not going to be easy getting to zero, and that's why he recommended 2lr. Do you have any recommended alternative to compare to? As I said, this isn't a perfect treatment. There are many reasons why it would take a lot to get to 0, especially since we are talking about PRP on old injuries.

Also, I get that you are skeptical, but can you please be mindful that there is a language barrier in certain occasions? I'm not saying you are meaning to, but are coming off as unintentionally xenophobic in my view. You have to have patience with people who have communication issues, especially if they don't know a language well. Please be careful.

 

[Bill Bauer]

John had 72 injections for $9,000 and Drone Draper gets quoted $18,000 for 12? Makes sense.

So essentially, the 2LR series doubles in price but the treatment frequency drastically reduces?

The more proof the doctor gets that the treatment is safe and effective, the more it makes sense for the doctor to charge his patients.

 

[just1morething]

Well it was @JohnAdams own money he used for his treatment to hopefully get relief from his torment, so I just wish him well and having his updates is only a plus for the rest of us sufferers.

In the past some members of this forum have tried expensive alternative treatments for their tinnitus, only to do very little updating on any improvements or complications involved.

 

[Artemis2K]

John had 72 injections for $9,000 and Drone Draper gets quoted $18,000 for 12? Makes sense.

So essentially, the 2LR series doubles in price but the treatment frequency drastically reduces?

How did you interpret 12 appointments as 12 injections... what?

 

[AZeurotuner]

Without a balanced discussion of the topic at hand, what's the point? Is no one allowed to criticise Dr Shim (even though he brings it on himself)?

If I see a ridiculous statement I will give an opinion on it. He literally just doubled the price for someone with a normal audiogram (arguably a very mild loss) and nobody bats an eyelid? I never even got a response because I asked to see some evidence that it works (before parting with a large chunk of money), and surely at the very least, he should be providing patients with this information anyway?

As much as I respect JohnAdams for taking the risk and going through with the procedure, I as well have some reservations when it comes to Dr. Shim. 1/6th the amount of injections for twice as much money, based on "severe" hearing loss that literally nobody else in the medical profession would label as such at the very least raises questions as to the ethical standards of the Dr. Shim. However, I will hold off judgement on efficicacy, if John reports back in two months saying that his T is greatly improved or even cured, I'd really have no reason to doubt his testimony.

The more proof the doctor gets that the treatment is safe and effective, the more it makes sense for the doctor to charge his patients.

It's the exact opposite of that in the real world. Can you provide any examples of other medical procedures getting exponentially more expensive as they before safer and more common place?

 

[Artemis2K]

As much as I respect JohnAdams for taking the risk and going through with the procedure, I as well have some reservations when it comes to Dr. Shim. 1/6th the amount of injections for twice as much money, based on "severe" hearing loss that literally nobody else in the medical profession would label as such at the very least raises questions as to the ethical standards of the Dr. Shim. However, I will hold off judgement on efficicacy, if John reports back in two months saying that his T is greatly improved or even cured, I'd really have no reason to doubt his testimony.

It's the exact opposite of that in the real world. Can you provide any examples of other medical procedures getting exponentially more expensive as they before safer and more common place?

This was a misinterpretation. It's not 12 injections. That doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Bill Bauer]

It's the exact opposite of that in the real world. Can you provide any examples of other medical procedures getting exponentially more expensive as they before safer and more common place?

When the procedure is experimental, the maker of the drug often pays the patient. Eventually, the patients begin to pay the drug manufacturer.

 

[AZeurotuner]

When the procedure is experimental, the maker of the drug often pays the patient. Eventually, the patients begin to pay the drug manufacturer.

This is not a clinical trial, JohnAdams paid $9000 dollars for his treatment. Experimental procedures are typically quite expensive, I'm not sure where you're getting this line of reasoning from.