Solsaem Clinic (Dr. Minbo Shim) Experience

[Ed209]

The more proof the doctor gets that the treatment is safe and effective, the more it makes sense for the doctor to charge his patients.

He claims that five years ago he successfully completed clinical experiments on the restoration of lost hearing, but when I asked him to show me, I was ignored. This clinical study has never been published and he claims this was five years ago? And his best answer is that he hopes to publish in the coming years, but is in no rush?

He did it successfully and never published it?

But he won't show anyone this apparent study. If he wants to be taken seriously he should have published these results into a medical journal already. He's happy to take everyone's money but is offended whenever anyone, rightly, questions him.

He seems to like people who don't query anything or ask for scientific evidence, and his price also seems to be pulled out of thin air. There's no logic to any of this whatsoever.

 

[Bill Bauer]

It's the exact opposite of that in the real world. Can you provide any examples of other medical procedures getting exponentially more expensive as they before safer and more common place?

I think you are mixing up economies of scale with what is happening here. Here we have one clinic. The number of treatments they can offer is fixed. However, they can keep the number of treatments they do constant (=their max capacity) by increasing the price as the demand for their treatment grows. The more success stories they can produce, the higher is their demand. Initially, their demand must have been low (few are willing to be a guinea pig), it made sense for them to keep their price low. Of course, at some point they might want to expand or get a franchise going. At that point (or when their patents, if any, expire), the prices might begin to come down.

 

[Bill Bauer]

He claims that 5 years ago he successfully completed clinical experiments on the restoration of lost hearing, but when I asked him to show me, I was ignored. This clinical study has never been published and he claims this was five years ago? And his best answer is that he hopes to publish in the coming years, but is in no rush?

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He did it successfully and never published it?

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But he won't show anyone this apparent study. If he wants to be taken seriously he should have published these results into a medical journal already. He's happy to take everyone's money but is offended whenever anyone, rightly, questions him.

He seems to like people who don't question him and his price also seems to be pulled out of thin air. There's no logic to any of this whatsoever.

I agree, this is very fishy. Does he have anything to hide?! I would certainly not want to be his patient, until he does something about transparency.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Experimental procedures are typically quite expensive, I'm not sure where you're getting this line of reasoning from.

Have you ever seen the show Maniac?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniac_(miniseries)#Premise

If you haven't seen that, you must have seen the show Testees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testees#Premise

 

[AZeurotuner]

I think you are mixing up economies of scale with what is happening here. Here we have one clinic. The number of treatments they can offer is fixed. However, they can keep the number of treatments they do constant (=their max capacity) by increasing the price as the demand for their treatment grows. The more success stories they can produce, the higher is their demand. Initially, their demand must have been low (few are willing to be a guinea pig), it made sense for them to keep their price low. Of course, at some point they might want to expand or get a franchise going. At that point (or when their patents, if any, expire), the prices might begin to come down.

Find me one, just one example of a medical procedure that started off affordable, got extremely expensive, then went back down again. Also, please explain how supply and demand relates to this procedure when only a handful of people have even went through with it in the first place? Dr. Shim doesn't appear to have a backlog of hearing restoration patients by any means.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Find me one, just one example of a medical procedure that started off affordable, got extremely expensive, then went back down again.

I don't have access to a database of time series of prices of medical procedures (and neither do you). In your opinion, what is the problem with my logic?

 

[Ed209]

I agree, this is very fishy. Does he have anything to hide?! I would certainly not want to be his patient, until he does something about transparency.

And this is key when it comes to medical procedures. Why is he so keen to hide the scientific evidence, which is the one thing that validates everything that he does?

It seems he'd rather keep it to himself when showing this data to his patients should be standard practice. It needs to be published so that it can be scrutinised and validated.

 

[Drone Draper]

I feel like this is all a bit fishy.

So I have "severe" hearing loss that requires 12 injections at $18k.

John, from my understating had way more injections and, I'm thinking a worse Audiogram (and do correct me if I'm wrong here) and was only charged $9k.

That is quite the cowboy in terms of business practice. I've experienced similar with marketing agencies in the past. I wouldn't expected this from a doctor.

Awaiting the results of this procedure with baited breath

 

[AZeurotuner]

I don't have access to a database of time series of prices of medical procedures (and neither do you). In your opinion, what is the problem with my logic?

Your logic is based on supply and demand when this pricing structure (or lack of) has nothing to do with it. There is currently no backlog for treatment at the Solsaem Clinic. Where's the demand when he's only performed a hand full of procedures? Out of the thousands of members on this site, only one has been treated, with just a few others even taking the time to inquire.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Find me one, just one example of a medical procedure that started off affordable, got extremely expensive, then went back down again.

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/prices-for-brand-drugs-spike-before-a-generic-is-released-heres-why/

 

[AZeurotuner]

https://www.goodrx.com/blog/prices-for-brand-drugs-spike-before-a-generic-is-released-heres-why/

From that article...

"So why do manufacturers raise the price of brand drugs immediately before generics are released? It's likely that this price hike is their way of ensuring a high price for the generic, while still being able to tout its deep discount. This strategy can have huge benefits, especially as original brand manufacturers try to capture a greater slice of the market by releasing their own generics."

This has nothing to do with prp injections. You're comparing something that is readily available being that it's made out of the patients own blood to a proprietary medication. Also, there is no talk of any competition using this treatment method for hearing loss. I'm simply trying to convey that Dr. Shim's pricing structure is seemingly nonsensical. His justification for higher prices was not relevant to any of this either, it had to do with what he called a more "severe" case. Goodnight Bill.

 

[Ed209]

There are many reasons why it would take a lot to get to 0, especially since we are talking about PRP on old injuries.

My hearing - via an audiogram - improved by 25dB at some frequencies and it didn't require any treatment. This is exactly why there has to be scientific scrutiny. He says he has clinical evidence but he won't publish it or show it to anyone: can you explain why?

 

[Ed209]

How did you interpret 12 appointments as 12 injections... what?

This is directly from Minbo Shim's website:

I usually do intratympanic injections every 2~3 days(twice or 3 times a week) for 2weeks, total 4~6 times.​

This is a description via his Russian patent:

PRP was incubated at room temperature for about 15 to 25 minutes after receiving PRP. Viscosity of the incubated PRP was approximately 12 mPa⋅s to 14 mPa⋅s. Approximately 0.5 ml to 1 ml of PRP was injected into the tympanic cavities of both ears of the subject.

When using this method, PRP was administered twice a week, six times in total. Of all six times, PRP was administered the first three times, and the other three were injected dexamethasone (Jeil Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd.), with 1 ml of dexamethasone injected into the tympanic cavities of both ears of the subject, and then PRP was also injected.

http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/265/2657828.html (use a translator)​

So in answer to your question, I'm basing it on the known facts and Dr Shim's own words via various sources (including his correspondences with people on here). This implies that he is referring to 12 injections total (in Drone Draper's case) but his standard protocol is to do 3/6 PRP injections? It's all very unclear and confusing.

How did John end up with 72 injections, and why was this half the price?

For both ears, we will treat you everyday, total 12 times.

And why is he suddenly treating someone with normal to very mild hearing loss, every day, instead of 2-3 times a week?

Doesn't anybody else think this is very strange behaviour? Am I on my own here?

Why are you all defending him and not questioning this?

 

[JohnAdams]

Without a balanced discussion of the topic at hand, what's the point? Is no one allowed to criticise Dr Shim (even though he brings it on himself)?

If I see a ridiculous statement I will give an opinion on it. He literally just doubled the price for someone with a normal audiogram (arguably a very mild loss) and nobody bats an eyelid? I never even got a response because I asked to see some evidence that it works (before parting with a large chunk of money), and surely at the very least, he should be providing patients with this information anyway?

You act like you know everything and you've never even been to the clinic or met the man, and I have. You've repeated your concerns over and over and over again in this thread, the original one about Dr. Shim and MPP. We know what you think. You're just trying to dominate the discussion like some self righteous keyboard warrior. We get it Ed, you don't trust this.

I'm the one sitting here waiting to see if my tinnitus goes down day by day. I actually went to the clinic, met the man, and endured the treatment. You've done nothing but type your worries on your keyboard.

 

[JohnAdams]

Why are you all defending him and not questioning this?

Thanks for filling up my thread with your super long posts about your "concerns".

 

[Aggie]

Why are you so defensive @JohnAdams? I for one find BOTH your and Ed's Posts Informative!

 

[JohnAdams]

Why are you so defensive @JohnAdams? I for one find BOTH your and Ed's Posts Informative!

Because he has stated his opinions ad nauseam and has insulted me in the past and he is just dominating my thread with his huge multi paragraph posts. I don't like him at all. Before I even went he was trying to spread his fear mongering with posts like this:

To me this screams scam, and a potential bodge job on your ears. Be really careful!

My ears are fine, no bodge job here. He obviously has it out for Dr. Shim.

I actually went there, he didn't, what can he possibly know? Ever heard the story of chicken little?

 

[Ed209]

You've repeated your concerns over and over and over again in this thread, the original one about Dr. Shim and MPP. We know what you think. You're just trying to dominate the discussion like some self righteous keyboard warrior. We get it Ed, you don't trust this.

I'm the one sitting here waiting to see if my tinnitus goes down day by day. I actually went to the clinic, met the man, and endured the treatment. You've done nothing but type your worries on your keyboard.

I posted my concerns, rather than keeping quiet about it (which I was going to do) because there are people who are considering going there for treatment. I'm in PM contact with some, and I think these points should be raised so that people can make a more informed opinion. I'm only adding my point of view based on how he is consulting people. If anyone thinks my points are invalid they are free to ignore them, but I'd rather they be known.

Because he has stated his opinions ad nauseam and has insulted me in the past

John, I'm not here to argue with you, and I think you'll find you were the one who was persistently aggressive towards me for no reason, many times. There comes a point where I will bite back because at the time I had had enough of your nonsense. You said you wished I was dead at one point and that was probably one of your better moments. Don't take stuff to heart because you often post without thinking what you are writing and it ends up getting deleted. I ignored all the abuse you threw at me and said you were only saying those things because you were angry, and I defended you over and over again.

With that said, I still hope it works out for you, but under the circumstances, I don't think it's wise to encourage others to go and see him. Don't forget that you also said you experienced silence after taking Curcumin. There are a lot of nuances to consider when one has a treatment of some sort; most notably, the placebo effect.

 

[JohnAdams]

I posted my concerns

over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.....

 

[IAmCalifornia]

With that said, I still hope it works out for you

This is a lie

 

[Drone Draper]

I don't think anyone would want this treatment not to work.

 

[Aggie]

This is a lie

You are a liar.

 

[IAmCalifornia]

You are a liar.

You're right, I don't really have tinnitus. I just spend all day here because it's fun. You got me, Detective.

 

[Tinker Bell]

"A notch at 25dB is not going to be noticeable in everyday life."

My hearing loss is 15 dB on my left ear. The difference between my left and right is noticeable and can sometimes be nauseating. I have trouble locating things sometimes because the accuracy perceiving sound is no longer as accurate. I bought a locator device that beeps and it is often useless depending on where my wallet ends up (not that I lose it often, but I have had to turn the thing on from occasion after misplacing it at home.) Many musical instruments now sound weird to me, and sometimes is overshadowed by tinnitus. Because I have always had hypersensitivity, my response to the loss has been bad. I was almost driven mad because of the hearing loss. I also have a hell of a time understanding people under background noise. I used to be able to notice every single thing that happened because of my sensitive ears, and I no longer can do that. Every time I hear someone say that such slight loss is trivial, I can't help be frustrated because I notice the difference extremely. People used to comment how great my hearing was and my accuracy of being able to tell what someone was saying from a far distance, and my ability to hear a pin drop from far away as well. I miss that tremendously. I have also had similar tinnitus as you described, but because I'm autistic, and because I have worse loss, it's louder and I "feel" it more.

This has largely taken over my life, and I want it back. That's why I've spent so much time on Dr. Shim, because what I read gave me hope. I put a lot of work into this. Probably almost as much as I have learning about eBay and Amazon ecommerce.

(Edit: idk about why that hyperlink appeared, but whatever.)

At what frequency? Across all frequencies? 15dB is not hearing loss. It is within the normal hearing range even for young children.

Have you had an upper frequency hearing test? What you are describing in terms of your hearing suggests upper frequency loss beyond typical parameters. By typical parameters I mean that higher frequencies begin to decline in early childhood. Studies have found even individuals with minimal loud noise exposure have upper hearing loss, much of it likely due to simply the aging process.

This graph illustrates average hearing thresholds through upper frequencies.

 

[Artemis2K]

When I see somebody casually attacking somebody's intelligence because of how they choose to write their posts on a forum, and many forms of passive-aggressivism, I will certainly question someone's intentions, especially if they repeat the same stuff constantly and steer a thread in a direction not intended and start calling someone a fraud despite the thread-maker having gone through the process and intending to share his story.

I don't know what you're really here for, Ed, but you've already made your points. I think that just letting this go, and letting John report his experiences like intended, until three months have passed, is perhaps the best option right now. Otherwise, this will get nowhere. :/

 

[Artemis2K]

At what frequency? Across all frequencies? 15dB is not hearing loss. It is within the normal hearing range even for young children.

Have you had an upper frequency hearing test? What you are describing in terms of your hearing suggests upper frequency loss beyond typical parameters. By typical parameters I mean that higher frequencies begin to decline in early childhood. Studies have found even individuals with minimal loud noise exposure have upper hearing loss, much of it likely due to simply the aging process.

I can't hear past 12kHz. That's not normal for someone my age. When I was a teenager I played loud music at 98 dB on a regular basis to avoid my parents arguing.

Also, the 15 dB notches are from 2khz to 4khz.

 

[Tinker Bell]

I can't hear past 12kHz. That's not normal for someone my age. When I was a teenager I played loud music at 98 dB on a regular basis to avoid my parents arguing.

Then I think you found your cause. Rather than the 15dB you mentioned, profound hearing loss beyond 12kHz is likely causing the hearing struggles you described.

 

[Ed209]

When I see somebody casually attacking somebody's intelligence because of how they choose to write their posts on a forum, and many forms of passive-aggressivism,

That's all I did and that was after a ton of abuse? It's not exactly hateful is it, unlike what I received repeatedly. I agree I've made my point and I'll leave you all to continue the discussion. Although the question of why he wanted $18k from Drone Draper still remains.

This is a lie

It's not a lie, I'm not a nasty person and I hope John does recover along with everybody else on here. I just don't want to see a load of people getting ripped off by Dr Shim.

 

[another sean]

@JohnAdams, when you were researching and considering going to this clinic, did you you also consider stem cells and possibly going to the same clinic in Thailand as @attheedgeofscience and others? If so, what made you decide to go with the PRP treatment over stem cell treatment? Multiple members had already shared that they had success with stem cells but I had not found any mentioning success with PRP yet.

So with that mind, what deterred you from stem cells if by chance it was a consideration when making your decision?

 

[JohnAdams]

@JohnAdams, So with that mind, what deterred you from stem cells if by chance it was a consideration when making your decision?

I decided from these studies that certain growth factors have healing properties that could potentially repair the damage I've done to my cochlea.

"In Vitro Differentiation of Human Bone Marrow Mesenchymal Stem Cells to Hair Cells Using Growth Factors"
http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/arti...-to-hair-cells-using-growth-factors-9090.html

"Insulin-like growth factor 1: A novel treatment for the protection or regeneration of cochlear hair cells."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25937136


"Anosmia treatment by platelet rich plasma injection"
http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/articles/anosmia-treatment-by-platelet-rich-plasma-injection.html

With anosmia, the stem cells in the nose are LGR5 positive just like the stem cells in the cochlea.

I had not found any mentioning success with PRP yet

Yet. I took the initiative.