Suicidal

[Stuart-T]

@Jerad, I used to consider the harmony of mathematics and other things you mentioned but then what about the ear disorders that keep us in this thread, and other horrid conditions affecting even children? Where is God's design in something like catastrophic tinnitus, children bone cancer, Alzheimer's etc? I'm in hell every minute, I'm typing this through a horrid wall of pain, watching my kids from far away, I can't play with them anymore, wearing Peltors and "listening" to torture. People we know too well, good people, had to end it because they could not stand it one more minute. It's a disease that is demonic, as you wrote poignantly many times. How can a good God allow for this? Continued torture that doesn't kill you? "Evil is there to leave men their freedom to choose" is an "explanation" that does not hold water. There is no freedom in this horror, in debilitating chronic illness, in natural disasters. The problem of evil is unsolvable by any theistic approach. How does one keep their faith in the face of it?

The paranormal episodes you mentioned are incredible. I don't think you are lying, I trust you are in good faith and you even said other people were with you. So personally I don't doubt your good faith but there could be different explanations, even if I don't see them. Also, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so while on a personal level I think you are in good faith, making a general claim based on your experience is hard. For example, near death experiences (NDEs) are pointing to an afterlife, and quite a few are convincing, taken individually, but when studied in controlled conditions as in the A.W.A.R.E. study, why couldn't they confirm a single one? There was maybe only one case that could be used as controlled evidence, out of so many, but I would have expected more. It's something to think about, though.

I don't know if the existence of an afterlife would be consoling for me anymore. Seeing what kind of horrors existence can subject us to, I'd rather "rest" in nothingness, safe, rather than risk further existence. So I hope the experience after we die is the same we had as before being born. But nobody knows. As for heaven, why save us after death but leave us impossibly tortured for years when still alive? It doesn't make sense. Worst of all is reincarnation, but fortunately I don't believe in it. I really hope it's lights out, even if this poses a number of problems on the meaning of this life, on the basis of morality and other issues. But we know very little, we need to take a guess. I hope it's peace, or maybe heaven, but if it's heaven I don't understand this at all, it looks like a sadistic game. As for hell, hell is here, but fortunately it is not eternal, it ends at some point, one way or another.

I'm impressed you know about the AWARE study. It really for me put the whole NDE claims thing to bed pending further research. Over 2000 resuscitations. Only 120 questionnaires completed. Only 1 case that looked remotely interesting. Once again though - one cannot rule out life after death - but I see no good evidence for it.

Supposing we do have eternal life? Life can get damned boring here on this amazing blue dot for the 70 or so years we have - think about an eternity of life doing exactly what? The first million years might drag a bit.

 

[Damocles]

Math's just a tool.

If you are not surprised by how this tool is so suited to describe the world, how discoveries made decades earlier like Ricci-Curbastro absolute calculus or Hilbert spaces turned out to describe the structure of the universe so precisely and intimately, I suggest, if you are not familiar with it, you read Wigner's (Nobel Prize in physics) "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences". Maths is too intimately related to the structure of reality to say it's just a tool. General Relativity and quantum field theories show that clearly.

I have some thoughts; I'm keeping them to myself. But happy Fibonacci Day everybody!

 

[danielthor]

It was black before we were born and it'll be black when we are done.

Why do people assume that it was black before they were born? Were they there to experience it?

No, they were probably someone, something else.

Reincarnation is already a biological fact. Every body's birth is a rebirth of a body that came before it; from nature's infinite rebirthing of the human body. There is no reason to believe that this sensation of "I" that you call "your self" won't be born along with it.

 

[Jerad]

@Jerad, I used to consider the harmony of mathematics and other things you mentioned but then what about the ear disorders that keep us in this thread, and other horrid conditions affecting even children? Where is God's design in something like catastrophic tinnitus, children bone cancer, Alzheimer's etc? I'm in hell every minute, I'm typing this through a horrid wall of pain, watching my kids from far away, I can't play with them anymore, wearing Peltors and "listening" to torture. People we know too well, good people, had to end it because they could not stand it one more minute. It's a disease that is demonic, as you wrote poignantly many times. How can a good God allow for this? Continued torture that doesn't kill you? "Evil is there to leave men their freedom to choose" is an "explanation" that does not hold water. There is no freedom in this horror, in debilitating chronic illness, in natural disasters. The problem of evil is unsolvable by any theistic approach. How does one keep their faith in the face of it?

The paranormal episodes you mentioned are incredible. I don't think you are lying, I trust you are in good faith and you even said other people were with you. So personally I don't doubt your good faith but there could be different explanations, even if I don't see them. Also, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so while on a personal level I think you are in good faith, making a general claim based on your experience is hard. For example, near death experiences (NDEs) are pointing to an afterlife, and quite a few are convincing, taken individually, but when studied in controlled conditions as in the A.W.A.R.E. study, why couldn't they confirm a single one? There was maybe only one case that could be used as controlled evidence, out of so many, but I would have expected more. It's something to think about, though.

I don't know if the existence of an afterlife would be consoling for me anymore. Seeing what kind of horrors existence can subject us to, I'd rather "rest" in nothingness, safe, rather than risk further existence. So I hope the experience after we die is the same we had as before being born. But nobody knows. As for heaven, why save us after death but leave us impossibly tortured for years when still alive? It doesn't make sense. Worst of all is reincarnation, but fortunately I don't believe in it. I really hope it's lights out, even if this poses a number of problems on the meaning of this life, on the basis of morality and other issues. But we know very little, we need to take a guess. I hope it's peace, or maybe heaven, but if it's heaven I don't understand this at all, it looks like a sadistic game. As for hell, hell is here, but fortunately it is not eternal, it ends at some point, one way or another.

@Chinmoku — Sometimes, I wish the "lights out" theory were true for the sake of humanity, but I just know it's not, seeing what I've seen. No way. And 3 people hearing ghostly voices and pictures / lights coming down further strengthens my faith in an afterlife. With tinnitus and hyperacusis, as evil as they are, I find it unlikely that one can escape them through suicide. I think the disorders probably go with you to the great beyond — the not so "great" one... if it's hell, that is.

The Bible says that suffering exists because we're living in a fallen world. The original world was meant to be without suffering. Sin tainted and cursed the creation, introducing suffering. And it caused a wall between us and God. To make it right, we have to accept Jesus's sacrifice to get salvation and tear down that wall. It's an apology, of sorts, and a commitment / dedication to changing our ways and following him. Jesus solved the problem of evil and consequential sin. He defeated them to give us an out.

I understand why suffering exists and health problems (due to the cursed world). I think the medical community tends to focus too much on terminal illnesses, though, as the worst case scenarios. The silver lining, even though it still sucks, is that those folks have dignified deaths; people with endless, catastrophic tinnitus and hyperacusis don't. When something is terminal, nature cleans up the mess it threw on them. Like I've said many times, if tinnitus and hyperacusis became terminal once they reached a certain point, I wouldn't feel overwhelmed and worried about my future. It would seem much more fair. The medical community should instead fear those disorders / diseases that savagely destroy a person's life but never kills them. Many here often say they'd rather have a terminal issue than live with the perpetual ear issues that are beyond debilitating.

What I have trouble reconciling is extreme tinnitus and hyperacusis that makes you incompatible with the world pretty much (since it doesn't kill you). The creation has turned on you. You're not just dealing with an internal, bodily problem, but also the world itself. It becomes inhospitable and like kryptonite to the sufferer, which creates a paradox almost... 'cause how is that person supposed to exist / work / etc. for the rest of their life, which could be 40-50 more years (my situation)? And the government / insurance companies won't support you? Getting on disability is very hard and not practical money-wise. I tried to do a 3 month medical leave from work. My doctor signed off on it, but my greedy insurance company wouldn't do it. They rejected. So here I have one of the worst things in the world and they won't accommodate me. I lost 5 grand so far. So the government won't fund it properly and won't provide adequate disability either. It's corruption and evil, man. How are we supposed to survive?

These conditions we have are uniquely diabolical because they make the world itself a toxic, sadistic entity. It becomes like hell, except the flames are replaced with sounds. It's not just an internal struggle (body), but what's going on outside the body, too (external). So it's a two-fold issue. Most health problems are one-fold. What's going on outside the body generally doesn't affect what's going on inside. With us, people become kryptonite, sounds do, and everything pretty much becomes impossible.

 

[Nick47]

What treatments? I would so welcome one that reduces tinnitus volume e.g. changes one's tinnitus from severe to mild - but, I can't foresee or imagine anything like that. Seems remote and practically a fantasy for tinnitus sufferers.

@PeteJ, can you wait 10 days until we get new information from Professor Susan Shore before calling it quits?

 

[Chinmoku]

I would like to preface this long post with an apology to all people who are suffering. I'm suffering as well, I'm in this thread, I have been a long time, I'm getting worse and worse. I'm one of the catastrophic cases. My thoughts are with you, and this is what is important, what we are going through together. The rest below is intellectual speculation that helps me distract minimally, but it's not as good as it should be because my brain is a pulp, due to the constant torture. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to reason on such things. But for those wondering about the afterlife, some who may have been scared by some of the arguments of the other people who posted, this may have some minimal interest. For everyone else, I'm sorry you are in this thread with me, I hope we can find a way out of this madness and close it one day, and please stop reading now.

With this disclaimer in place, let me answer some of the posts.

Supposing we do have eternal life? Life can get damned boring here on this amazing blue dot for the 70 or so years we have - think about an eternity of life doing exactly what? The first million years might drag a bit.

I understand your sentiments, but let me play devil's advocate for the theists, as I was one of them, we should not think of time as we experience it now. Heaven would probably be outside the block space-time manifold, in a state where time is something completely different and we might not even experience it. Time is very slippery, the arrow of time (past-future direction) is statistical in nature (linked to the arrangement of matter in the early state stage of the universe) and not fundamental, fundamental laws of particle physics satisfy symmetries that make it hard to find a direction past-future, but large systems have increasing entropy that single particles don't have. This is the only certain time arrow we have, and it is statistical in nature, not fundamental. This may lead us to think time is not fundamental, but more a derivative, emergent property, although we humans are so embedded into it that we can't even conceive of a world without it. There are quantum states where time and space do not exist as separate entities, so there is no flow of time. This, however, requires quantum gravity, and we still don't have a theory for it. So, in heaven, time would not be experienced as we think, it would be unimaginable. Having said that, the lights out assumption is the simplest and most fitting to facts (far-fetched theories and experiences aside), especially the A.W.A.R.E study. This is a study any NDE proponent should look at, as you say.

I have some thoughts; I'm keeping them to myself. But happy Fibonacci Day everybody!

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts, Damocles.

Why do people assume that it was black before they were born? Were they there to experience it?
No, they were probably someone, something else.

Reincarnation is already a biological fact. Every body's birth is a rebirth of a body that came before it; from nature's infinite rebirthing of the human body. There is no reason to believe that this sensation of "I" that you call "your self" won't be born along with it.

Danielthor, we are arguing semantics. There is no continuity of consciousness. I think the Buddha argued very well against this idea of an indestructible entity that migrates from a body to the next, Buddhists talk about rebirth rather than reincarnation for this reason, but in any case there is no continuity of consciousness. What you call the new "I" is not really the old you, and if souls migrated, how do we explain the huge populations growth? It looks like new souls are continually created to keep the balance. If you invoke animals migrating into humans, consciousness of animals is quite different, an ant migrating in a man? And last, to show how reincarnation is undesirable, it is an evil thing for both Hindus and Buddhists, who have as supreme aim precisely exiting samsara, this cycle of reincarnations or rebirths. But as I was saying, we are arguing semantics, there is no continuity of consciousness, so we need to agree what "I" is. My idea of "I" is an "I" that will disappear when my brain turns off.

@Jerad, the Bible is so full of inconsistencies that I don't know how you can rely on it for such fundamental assertions. Jesus made a lot of promises, very clearly written in the gospels, that seem to be constantly failing. We have the idea of eternal hell introduced by Augustine, but a lot of the early church fathers (Origen, Clement, Gregory among others) believed in Apocatastasis or universal salvation, so hell at worst being temporary. Now that scholars are studying the Bible properly, with the right linguistic tools, we understand eternal hell is an invention, it's not in the Bible at all. Neither Sheol, nor Gehenna (and not even Tartarus) imply eternal punishment (for humans as opposed to fallen angels for example). The Bible is not even monotheistic, in the early days Jahve had a wife, Ashera, look it up. The episode of Abraham and Isaac is not what everyone thinks: the God who asks for sacrifice is Elohim, one of the many minor gods that were still there at the time, while the God who stops Abraham is Jahve, the true God. It's not that God is testing Abraham with such a horrible trial, first giving him a child after decades of waiting, and then capriciously asking Abraham to kill the child. And there are so many other errors. Omnipotent, this word does not exist in the Bible, it has been used by Jerome as a filler twice when he did his translation in Latin for words he did not know how to translate, but we know today. There are even Catholic priests claiming this now. And suggesting that whatever illness we have will follow us in the beyond is crazy, what about the resurrection of the body, the glorious body etc? If this is a fallen world, why should we stay fallen? I realize this is the suicidal thread but this is the wrong way to convince people to hold on, it's of such a cruelty that it defies all thinking, how can one really believe that a Father God would allow for this, a God who saves one sheep at risk of 99 others, a Father who welcomes the prodigal son back, why would such a God treat his children like dirt? Ask bread and receive a stone, snakes? It doesn't make any sense, even with the sacrifice of Jesus counted in, and I'm sorry but Jesus' sacrifice is not a satisfactory response to the problem of evil, priests themselves admit this, it softens the problem somewhat but it does not answer it. How can a Father God, God of mercy allow for this? You need such intellectual acrobatics to make sense of this that it defies imagination.

 

[Stuart-T]

I would like to preface this long post with an apology to all people who are suffering. I'm suffering as well, I'm in this thread, I have been a long time, I'm getting worse and worse. I'm one of the catastrophic cases. My thoughts are with you, and this is what is important, what we are going through together. The rest below is intellectual speculation that helps me distract minimally, but it's not as good as it should be because my brain is a pulp, due to the constant torture. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to reason on such things. But for those wondering about the afterlife, some who may have been scared by some of the arguments of the other people who posted, this may have some minimal interest. For everyone else, I'm sorry you are in this thread with me, I hope we can find a way out of this madness and close it one day, and please stop reading now.

With this disclaimer in place, let me answer some of the posts.

I understand your sentiments, but let me play devil's advocate for the theists, as I was one of them, we should not think of time as we experience it now. Heaven would probably be outside the block space-time manifold, in a state where time is something completely different and we might not even experience it. Time is very slippery, the arrow of time (past-future direction) is statistical in nature (linked to the arrangement of matter in the early state stage of the universe) and not fundamental, fundamental laws of particle physics satisfy symmetries that make it hard to find a direction past-future, but large systems have increasing entropy that single particles don't have. This is the only certain time arrow we have, and it is statistical in nature, not fundamental. This may lead us to think time is not fundamental, but more a derivative, emergent property, although we humans are so embedded into it that we can't even conceive of a world without it. There are quantum states where time and space do not exist as separate entities, so there is no flow of time. This, however, requires quantum gravity, and we still don't have a theory for it. So, in heaven, time would not be experienced as we think, it would be unimaginable. Having said that, the lights out assumption is the simplest and most fitting to facts (far-fetched theories and experiences aside), especially the A.W.A.R.E study. This is a study any NDE proponent should look at, as you say.

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts, Damocles.

Danielthor, we are arguing semantics. There is no continuity of consciousness. I think the Buddha argued very well against this idea of an indestructible entity that migrates from a body to the next, Buddhists talk about rebirth rather than reincarnation for this reason, but in any case there is no continuity of consciousness. What you call the new "I" is not really the old you, and if souls migrated, how do we explain the huge populations growth? It looks like new souls are continually created to keep the balance. If you invoke animals migrating into humans, consciousness of animals is quite different, an ant migrating in a man? And last, to show how reincarnation is undesirable, it is an evil thing for both Hindus and Buddhists, who have as supreme aim precisely exiting samsara, this cycle of reincarnations or rebirths. But as I was saying, we are arguing semantics, there is no continuity of consciousness, so we need to agree what "I" is. My idea of "I" is an "I" that will disappear when my brain turns off.

@Jerad, the Bible is so full of inconsistencies that I don't know how you can rely on it for such fundamental assertions. Jesus made a lot of promises, very clearly written in the gospels, that seem to be constantly failing. We have the idea of eternal hell introduced by Augustine, but a lot of the early church fathers (Origen, Clement, Gregory among others) believed in Apocatastasis or universal salvation, so hell at worst being temporary. Now that scholars are studying the Bible properly, with the right linguistic tools, we understand eternal hell is an invention, it's not in the Bible at all. Neither Sheol, nor Gehenna (and not even Tartarus) imply eternal punishment (for humans as opposed to fallen angels for example). The Bible is not even monotheistic, in the early days Jahve had a wife, Ashera, look it up. The episode of Abraham and Isaac is not what everyone thinks: the God who asks for sacrifice is Elohim, one of the many minor gods that were still there at the time, while the God who stops Abraham is Jahve, the true God. It's not that God is testing Abraham with such a horrible trial, first giving him a child after decades of waiting, and then capriciously asking Abraham to kill the child. And there are so many other errors. Omnipotent, this word does not exist in the Bible, it has been used by Jerome as a filler twice when he did his translation in Latin for words he did not know how to translate, but we know today. There are even Catholic priests claiming this now. And suggesting that whatever illness we have will follow us in the beyond is crazy, what about the resurrection of the body, the glorious body etc? If this is a fallen world, why should we stay fallen? I realize this is the suicidal thread but this is the wrong way to convince people to hold on, it's of such a cruelty that it defies all thinking, how can one really believe that a Father God would allow for this, a God who saves one sheep at risk of 99 others, a Father who welcomes the prodigal son back, why would such a God treat his children like dirt? Ask bread and receive a stone, snakes? It doesn't make any sense, even with the sacrifice of Jesus counted in, and I'm sorry but Jesus' sacrifice is not a satisfactory response to the problem of evil, priests themselves admit this, it softens the problem somewhat but it does not answer it. How can a Father God, God of mercy allow for this? You need such intellectual acrobatics to make sense of this that it defies imagination.

What I take from your reply to my point is you hold the view - as I do - that any kind of afterlife - if it exists at all, will be no reunification with deceased loved ones - our memories die with our brains.

For me - this is equivalent to near absolute death. Since my identity is comprised of my physical body (lost at death), my personality (lost at death) and my memories (lost at death). If those 3 are lost - I also die completely.

I accept your point about time etc - and who knows - our souls may sit somewhere in a state of permanent bliss or whatever. Or just some state unknown.

As for the biblical God. He is not a nice guy at all - based on the old testament. He did not have the balls to tell the Jews to stop enslaving people and indeed instructs how to do it, he sent some bears to tear apart 42 boys who insulted Elisha the prophet etc.

 

[Stuart-T]

Why do people assume that it was black before they were born? Were they there to experience it?

No, they were probably someone, something else.

Reincarnation is already a biological fact. Every body's birth is a rebirth of a body that came before it; from nature's infinite rebirthing of the human body. There is no reason to believe that this sensation of "I" that you call "your self" won't be born along with it.

There is also no reason to believe the "I" will be born along with it.

Wishful thinking. It would be nice but doubt it is true

 

[danielthor]

Danielthor, we are arguing semantics. There is no continuity of consciousness. I think the Buddha argued very well against this idea of an indestructible entity that migrates from a body to the next, Buddhists talk about rebirth rather than reincarnation for this reason, but in any case there is no continuity of consciousness. What you call the new "I" is not really the old you, and if souls migrated, how do we explain the huge populations growth? It looks like new souls are continually created to keep the balance. If you invoke animals migrating into humans, consciousness of animals is quite different, an ant migrating in a man? And last, to show how reincarnation is undesirable, it is an evil thing for both Hindus and Buddhists, who have as supreme aim precisely exiting samsara, this cycle of reincarnations or rebirths. But as I was saying, we are arguing semantics, there is no continuity of consciousness, so we need to agree what "I" is. My idea of "I" is an "I" that will disappear when my brain turns off.

I get that we are arguing semantics. I'm replying with a semantic.

And I agree, we need to agree on what the I is, and I think we do, only on different levels. My belief is that behind each and every one of us there is just one thing experiencing it all. Call this God, or the Universe, or Consciousness, or Nature, or whatever. This thing is who we truly are. It is what everything is. Every "I", be it human or animal, or a stone in a cowshit, is it, and when one "I" dies; another "I" gets born.

I like to think of us as waves. The ocean builds you up until you crash on the shore, at which point you become part of the ocean again, until it eventually makes another wave out of you. The wave has somehow imagined itself to be separate from the ocean from whence it came. The separation exists only in the imagination of the mind. Think about this; without the mind conceptualizing and defining everything around you; you would be one with it all. And then there would be no you.

Because of this, animals most likely do not even have a sensation of this I, since they most likely lack the ability to conceptualize. I would also hardly call this an ability, since this has caused way more bad than good, literally disillusioning us to the point where we actually think we are real and that we die. It's a disability if anything.

The self; or the thing we call "the self" is just a biological flex in the physical body no more serious than an itch on the ass. The mind's total identification with it is what creates the illusion that this is you and this is all that you are. Of course this will not be reincarnated. We can agree on that. We are an illusion, and when we die we shall find out that we are an illusion, until we are born again through a new illusion. This is not a continuation of consciousness. Consciousness is always there. Consciousness is a different word for God, which means It's everything and it's eternal. It's not a reincarnation of you. It's a reincarnation of the illusion of a you, which will be you, and which will feel just as real as the you that you are right now.

Considering just random it was that this particular illusion of you came to be, is it really so strange to think that a new you could be made? To me, strange would be to think that it couldn't.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

I shouldn't really be here, since I'm not suicidal anymore, but I want to give my two cents on the recently discussed topic.

No offense to anyone, but, in my opinion, God, if he exists, is an asshole. I only started getting better once I started cursing his name. I used to be a devoted Christian, and I certainly didn't appreciate being ignored in my immense suffering by someone who is supposedly our "savior" .

F*ck all that "God's plan" nonsense. I guess it was God's plan for Fidel Castro to cause immense suffering and hundreds of thousands of deaths and live in comfort and luxury and pass away peacefully at 90."Oh but he's in hell now", yeah, miss me with that bullsh*t.

Makes more sense that God doesn't exist (at least in how we portray him), I only realized how ridiculous and stupid most religious beliefs/claims are after I started looking into it and stopped blindly believing. Every Christian/Muslim/etc is 99.9% atheist. Over 3000 religious deities have existed since the dawn of time, you don't believe in 2999 of them, I just don't believe in one more.

 

[Chinmoku]

As for the biblical God. He is not a nice guy at all - based on the old testament. He did not have the balls to tell the Jews to stop enslaving people and indeed instructs how to do it, he sent some bears to tear apart 42 boys who insulted Elisha the prophet etc.

Just to say I would need to check whether the gods doing all the bad things in the old testament were Jahvè or one of the minor deities, one of the Elohim, like the one who asked Abraham to kill his son, that looked a lot like Moloch. In that case Jahvè stops the bad demigods and says no more child sacrifices, that's what the story of Abraham and Isaac really means. But in any case, if they were Elohim, why didn't Jahvè stop them? It's really all messed up, like the killing of all the firstborn in Egypt. The old testament has indeed plenty of horrible episodes.

@danielthor, interesting, have you heard of the yogacara school of Buddhism? I think @linearb talked about it in the past. In some aspects, it's very close to what you are saying.

@AnthonyMcDonald, I know another person like you used to be, they are suffering enormously and they are told all the time it's God's plan, to have faith, all the usual battery of platitudes, but like you they finally started questioning everything. It has always been under our eyes, really, but when one goes under this meat grinder it's always an eye opening.

Yet others find solace and strength in religion without pushing it on others, and adopt it as a vehicle to do a lot of good in the world. More power to them, as far as I'm concerned, although you don't need religion for that anyway.

 

[Jerad]

I would like to preface this long post with an apology to all people who are suffering. I'm suffering as well, I'm in this thread, I have been a long time, I'm getting worse and worse. I'm one of the catastrophic cases. My thoughts are with you, and this is what is important, what we are going through together. The rest below is intellectual speculation that helps me distract minimally, but it's not as good as it should be because my brain is a pulp, due to the constant torture. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to reason on such things. But for those wondering about the afterlife, some who may have been scared by some of the arguments of the other people who posted, this may have some minimal interest. For everyone else, I'm sorry you are in this thread with me, I hope we can find a way out of this madness and close it one day, and please stop reading now.

With this disclaimer in place, let me answer some of the posts.

I understand your sentiments, but let me play devil's advocate for the theists, as I was one of them, we should not think of time as we experience it now. Heaven would probably be outside the block space-time manifold, in a state where time is something completely different and we might not even experience it. Time is very slippery, the arrow of time (past-future direction) is statistical in nature (linked to the arrangement of matter in the early state stage of the universe) and not fundamental, fundamental laws of particle physics satisfy symmetries that make it hard to find a direction past-future, but large systems have increasing entropy that single particles don't have. This is the only certain time arrow we have, and it is statistical in nature, not fundamental. This may lead us to think time is not fundamental, but more a derivative, emergent property, although we humans are so embedded into it that we can't even conceive of a world without it. There are quantum states where time and space do not exist as separate entities, so there is no flow of time. This, however, requires quantum gravity, and we still don't have a theory for it. So, in heaven, time would not be experienced as we think, it would be unimaginable. Having said that, the lights out assumption is the simplest and most fitting to facts (far-fetched theories and experiences aside), especially the A.W.A.R.E study. This is a study any NDE proponent should look at, as you say.

It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts, Damocles.

Danielthor, we are arguing semantics. There is no continuity of consciousness. I think the Buddha argued very well against this idea of an indestructible entity that migrates from a body to the next, Buddhists talk about rebirth rather than reincarnation for this reason, but in any case there is no continuity of consciousness. What you call the new "I" is not really the old you, and if souls migrated, how do we explain the huge populations growth? It looks like new souls are continually created to keep the balance. If you invoke animals migrating into humans, consciousness of animals is quite different, an ant migrating in a man? And last, to show how reincarnation is undesirable, it is an evil thing for both Hindus and Buddhists, who have as supreme aim precisely exiting samsara, this cycle of reincarnations or rebirths. But as I was saying, we are arguing semantics, there is no continuity of consciousness, so we need to agree what "I" is. My idea of "I" is an "I" that will disappear when my brain turns off.

@Jerad, the Bible is so full of inconsistencies that I don't know how you can rely on it for such fundamental assertions. Jesus made a lot of promises, very clearly written in the gospels, that seem to be constantly failing. We have the idea of eternal hell introduced by Augustine, but a lot of the early church fathers (Origen, Clement, Gregory among others) believed in Apocatastasis or universal salvation, so hell at worst being temporary. Now that scholars are studying the Bible properly, with the right linguistic tools, we understand eternal hell is an invention, it's not in the Bible at all. Neither Sheol, nor Gehenna (and not even Tartarus) imply eternal punishment (for humans as opposed to fallen angels for example). The Bible is not even monotheistic, in the early days Jahve had a wife, Ashera, look it up. The episode of Abraham and Isaac is not what everyone thinks: the God who asks for sacrifice is Elohim, one of the many minor gods that were still there at the time, while the God who stops Abraham is Jahve, the true God. It's not that God is testing Abraham with such a horrible trial, first giving him a child after decades of waiting, and then capriciously asking Abraham to kill the child. And there are so many other errors. Omnipotent, this word does not exist in the Bible, it has been used by Jerome as a filler twice when he did his translation in Latin for words he did not know how to translate, but we know today. There are even Catholic priests claiming this now. And suggesting that whatever illness we have will follow us in the beyond is crazy, what about the resurrection of the body, the glorious body etc? If this is a fallen world, why should we stay fallen? I realize this is the suicidal thread but this is the wrong way to convince people to hold on, it's of such a cruelty that it defies all thinking, how can one really believe that a Father God would allow for this, a God who saves one sheep at risk of 99 others, a Father who welcomes the prodigal son back, why would such a God treat his children like dirt? Ask bread and receive a stone, snakes? It doesn't make any sense, even with the sacrifice of Jesus counted in, and I'm sorry but Jesus' sacrifice is not a satisfactory response to the problem of evil, priests themselves admit this, it softens the problem somewhat but it does not answer it. How can a Father God, God of mercy allow for this? You need such intellectual acrobatics to make sense of this that it defies imagination.

@Chinmoku, I just meant that I believe the conditions will go with the sufferer to the afterlife only if they go to hell, not heaven. I guess my thinking is that God makes himself known to everyone in this life and if they reject his gift of salvation, they're living their lives as the one in control and against him. The wages of sin are not forgiven for that person. If something goes terribly wrong in life, like my situation, then I guess I played the game and lost. I wasn't putting God front and center, even though he gave me so many opportunities to do so. I wasn't entrusting him, so it's my fault. The things that caused me to go from mild to severe/catastrophic were so small and crazy it's almost like it was a spiritual attack, likely from the evil side. Now I'm in purgatory basically and can only hope I'll get my life back. Otherwise, this is like a prison sentence until the day I die. But anyway, I just know there's a spiritual/paranormal realm because of undeniable personal experiences. We can all believe whatever we wanna believe, but we can't all be right in the end.

 

[Stuart-T]

@Chinmoku, I just meant that I believe the conditions will go with the sufferer to the afterlife only if they go to hell, not heaven. I guess my thinking is that God makes himself known to everyone in this life and if they reject his gift of salvation, they're living their lives as the one in control and against him. The wages of sin are not forgiven for that person. If something goes terribly wrong in life, like my situation, then I guess I played the game and lost. I wasn't putting God front and center, even though he gave me so many opportunities to do so. I wasn't entrusting him, so it's my fault. The things that caused me to go from mild to severe/catastrophic were so small and crazy it's almost like it was a spiritual attack, likely from the evil side. Now I'm in purgatory basically and can only hope I'll get my life back. Otherwise, this is like a prison sentence until the day I die. But anyway, I just know there's a spiritual/paranormal realm because of undeniable personal experiences. We can all believe whatever we wanna believe, but we can't all be right in the end.

"Religions can't all be right - but they could all be wrong."

 

[Stuart-T]

I get that we are arguing semantics. I'm replying with a semantic.

And I agree, we need to agree on what the I is, and I think we do, only on different levels. My belief is that behind each and every one of us there is just one thing experiencing it all. Call this God, or the Universe, or Consciousness, or Nature, or whatever. This thing is who we truly are. It is what everything is. Every "I", be it human or animal, or a stone in a cowshit, is it, and when one "I" dies; another "I" gets born.

I like to think of us as waves. The ocean builds you up until you crash on the shore, at which point you become part of the ocean again, until it eventually makes another wave out of you. The wave has somehow imagined itself to be separate from the ocean from whence it came. The separation exists only in the imagination of the mind. Think about this; without the mind conceptualizing and defining everything around you; you would be one with it all. And then there would be no you.

Because of this, animals most likely do not even have a sensation of this I, since they most likely lack the ability to conceptualize. I would also hardly call this an ability, since this has caused way more bad than good, literally disillusioning us to the point where we actually think we are real and that we die. It's a disability if anything.

The self; or the thing we call "the self" is just a biological flex in the physical body no more serious than an itch on the ass. The mind's total identification with it is what creates the illusion that this is you and this is all that you are. Of course this will not be reincarnated. We can agree on that. We are an illusion, and when we die we shall find out that we are an illusion, until we are born again through a new illusion. This is not a continuation of consciousness. Consciousness is always there. Consciousness is a different word for God, which means It's everything and it's eternal. It's not a reincarnation of you. It's a reincarnation of the illusion of a you, which will be you, and which will feel just as real as the you that you are right now.

Considering just random it was that this particular illusion of you came to be, is it really so strange to think that a new you could be made? To me, strange would be to think that it couldn't.

What you call an illusion - is a function of the brain. Without this illusory sense of self - we would not have motivation to spread our genes around and protect our offspring. We would probably not survive at all if there is no illusion of self to fear death. A product of evolution by natural selection. It is one reason we have been so successful as a species. When the brain dies - the illusion dies forever with it.

I am fairly confident this is the case.

 

[Jerad]

"Religions can't all be right - but they could all be wrong."

Ya, the unknown just sucks, man. The implications are too terrifying. What if hell is real? What if there is a God? What if it's not just a fairy tale? Obviously, I believe it's not. I'm so confident that I'd die for those beliefs. If the existence of God was 100% irrefutable, if he revealed himself to the world for all to see, then I think a lot more people would be convicted to follow him, obviously. But then that erases the concept of faith, I suppose.

Amid that feral darkness, long I stood there, thinking, crying, wishing I was dying as I heard those nasty tones that no sane mortal had ever heard before.

 

[ajc]

@Jerad, how did you find God? Were your parents religious and you were brought up into the God lifestyle?

Life is a mystery for me, I'll try to keep an open mind what happens after.

 

[Jerad]

@Jerad, how did you find God? Were your parents religious and you were brought up into the God lifestyle?

Life is a mystery for me, I'll try to keep an open mind what happens after.

Hey, @ajc, hope you're doing okay. Growing up, I was taught that Christianity was real, but a dysfunctional childhood, OCD, and personal experiences ultimately led me to truly accept those beliefs. I've witnessed many paranormal incidents, too, as described in previous posts. I only touched on one incident, but have seen many more and know a lot of family members who have, too. That's good you keep an open mind.

Something that hasn't been mentioned here — as we've been talking about religion and paranormal activity a lot — is documented cases of exorcisms. If taken at face value, the demonic entities acknowledge Christ as a force to be reckoned with, as do many other spirits in haunted homes that are cleansed. I'm guessing that the skeptics on here don't believe there's any merit to the EVPs or video footage captured in many cases.

 

[Stuart-T]

Hey, @ajc, hope you're doing okay. Growing up, I was taught that Christianity was real, but a dysfunctional childhood, OCD, and personal experiences ultimately led me to truly accept those beliefs. I've witnessed many paranormal incidents, too, as described in previous posts. I only touched on one incident, but have seen many more and know a lot of family members who have, too. That's good you keep an open mind.

Something that hasn't been mentioned here — as we've been talking about religion and paranormal activity a lot — is documented cases of exorcisms. If taken at face value, the demonic entities acknowledge Christ as a force to be reckoned with, as do many other spirits in haunted homes that are cleansed. I'm guessing that the skeptics on here don't believe there's any merit to the EVPs or video footage captured in many cases.

I have a friend who is not a Christian or even theist as such - but he believes things easily which take his fancy. He believes in souls. He even sent me a YouTube video of souls floating up out of dead bodies. He genuinely believes the videos are real. Videos can be treated as evidence - but it is easy to fake effects so they are not good evidence.

As for your experiences - you have exactly the kind of religious mindset which is susceptible to seeing things that are not there - or interpreting events to fit a claim. So no - I don't trust your testimony but I accept you believe you have seen real phenomena.

No I do not believe in possessions etc. I do believe though in the religious imagination - people could believe they are possessed - and by the same rationale - could believe the exorcism they just experienced - drove out the devil. Who is documenting the cases? Catholics - believers.

Supposing the paranormal is genuine. How does that confirm your religion?

My ex-wife is a believer - I have been on my knees with her saying prayers for our son countless times. No more though - I am divorced.

 

[danielthor]

@danielthor, interesting, have you heard of the yogacara school of Buddhism? I think @linearb talked about it in the past. In some aspects, it's very close to what you are saying.

Not yet, but sounds interesting. Most of my perspective I got from guys like Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle, who got most of their perspective from Buddhism I think.

What you call an illusion - is a function of the brain. Without this illusory sense of self - we would not have motivation to spread our genes around and protect our offspring. We would probably not survive at all if there is no illusion of self to fear death. A product of evolution by natural selection. It is one reason we have been so successful as a species. When the brain dies - the illusion dies forever with it.

I am fairly confident this is the case.

Animals seem to do brilliantly without this illusion, so no I don't think this is the case at all. The motivation to spread our genes around, and protect our offspring, and to survive, is in our very nature. It's not "our" motivation that does this; it's nature doing this through us. It has nothing to do with "us". Without our sense of self; we would just be nature; in the same way that the wolves in the woods are just nature. They are real, but one might say, In a way, that they are not real; not as separate individuals, because they don't exist as wolves to themselves, probably not even aware of themselves as living beings. You need the (dis)ability to conceptionalize to see yourself separate from nature. This is how we are brought into existence, and this is how death is born. We literally make up death with our minds, and we bring death to ourselves and everyone and everything around us with this thinking. I don't see this as success. It's a flaw.

When the brain dies - the illusion dies with it, sure. I agree. But then another brain gets produced, and a new illusion takes hold and through this illusion we get born again.

My two cents.

 

[Chinmoku]

Not yet, but sounds interesting. Most of my perspective I got from guys like Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle, who got most of their perspective from Buddhism I think.

Definitely these two have been influenced by Buddhism, big time.

What you are interested in in Yogacara is the theory of the storehouse-consciousness.

From Wiki:

The ālayavijñāna, or the "All-encompassing foundation consciousness", forms the "base-consciousness" (mūlavijñāna) or "causal consciousness". According to the traditional interpretation, the other seven consciousnesses are "evolving" or "transforming" consciousnesses originating in this base-consciousness. The store-house consciousness accumulates all potential energy as seeds (bīja) for the mental (nāma) and physical (rūpa) manifestation of one's existence. It is the storehouse-consciousness which induces rebirth, causing the origination of a new existence.

And your other comment below looks like Buddha's theory of rebirth, where the skandhas (the fifth of the skandhas is consciousness) of past beings contribute to new beings, but there is a mix up, it's not "you" anymore, elements of your consciousness get mixed up with those of others, and new beings are created, tapping in the storehouse consciousness, in the case of Yogacara.

When the brain dies - the illusion dies with it, sure. I agree. But then another brain gets produced, and a new illusion takes hold and through this illusion we get born again.

Yes, this is definitively compatible with Buddhism. What I think we are saying is that this new illusion is not the same "I" who died, that "I" subjective experience is finished, completed, and it's light off for him. According to Buddhism, the skandhas will mix to create a new being, as I was saying, but the old "I" 's subjective experience is light outs, they are gone forever and unconscious. Like when you are under general anaesthesia.

Also, when the sun will go red, if humanity is still around (I strongly doubt it) all beings will die. What will happen then to rebirth/reincarnation? All life will cease instantly. That seems to put a hard stop to reincarnation/rebirth, unless we talk about other worlds/realms etc.

 

[Chinmoku]

@Chinmoku, I just meant that I believe the conditions will go with the sufferer to the afterlife only if they go to hell, not heaven. I guess my thinking is that God makes himself known to everyone in this life and if they reject his gift of salvation, they're living their lives as the one in control and against him. The wages of sin are not forgiven for that person. If something goes terribly wrong in life, like my situation, then I guess I played the game and lost. I wasn't putting God front and center, even though he gave me so many opportunities to do so. I wasn't entrusting him, so it's my fault. The things that caused me to go from mild to severe/catastrophic were so small and crazy it's almost like it was a spiritual attack, likely from the evil side. Now I'm in purgatory basically and can only hope I'll get my life back. Otherwise, this is like a prison sentence until the day I die. But anyway, I just know there's a spiritual/paranormal realm because of undeniable personal experiences. We can all believe whatever we wanna believe, but we can't all be right in the end.

But even in the context of Christianity, Jesus always helped those going in the wrong direction. Look at the episode of Emmaus. The small village, in the antique tradition, was the bad place, whereas the big city was the good place. These two disciples misunderstood everything, don't believe in the resurrection, and are going in the wrong direction, from Jerusalem to Emmaus, but Jesus does not abandon them for that, Jesus follows them, teaches them all day, and finally manifests himself to them in the night, if only for a second. Then they go back to Jerusalem (the good place) immediately, even if it's night. The lost sheep. The prodigal son. It's full of stories like this in the gospel. God cannot fail, and it is for that that he will restore creation at the end. A merciful God does not use imprisonment as a punitive measure but as a corrective one, and as such it cannot be eternal. Everybody ended up in Sheol before Jesus came, according to the Bible, good or bad, then Gehenna was a physical dump outside Jerusalem walls, used figuratively, and Tartarus was only for the fallen angels. What has been translated as "eternal" erroneously in the gospels means actually "for an epoch". There is no eternal hell for humans in scripture! After a period of purification in "hell", the length/intensity of which depends on the person CV, the person is released and allowed to exit spacetime to join heaven. This is the perspective of universalists, and if I were still a Christian, this is the only church that would make sense to me, based on scholarly analysis of ancient texts, early church history, basic logical consistency, faith, etc. There is even a sub in Reddit on Christian universalism. How selfish and limiting is it to be able to hope only for your own salvation but not for that of others, given that it is out of your hands in mainstream Christianity? Your family? Your parents? Your children?

I am beyond that now, as I am basically agnostic, but if I were still a Christian, that is the only perspective that would make sense to me, even having been raised in a more traditional confession. I think there is nothing wrong in taking a reasonable position in the myriad of Christian confessions that exists, based on logic, scripture and also personal orientation. After all, they can't all be right, and is the one you choose only a function of how you have been educated/indoctrinated? One can choose. So please, _and this is my main point here_, let's stop scaring people telling terrible things like your tinnitus will follow you in hell if you are not a believer, and things like that. As Big Lebowski would say, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Finally, do you really believe that your current tinnitus is a punishment? I think after a few years in this planet it is obvious that life is a lottery. There are horribly evil people who prosper, extremely good people who suffer, and everything in-between, it's full of saints who went through hell on earth, and this has very little if anything to do with their relationship with God or Jesus. This is just a lottery. We are the only ones that can change it, even if in the case of ear conditions we always sucked and still suck at it, big time, unfortunately.

The torture continues... I don't even know how I have been able to type this.

 

[Stuart-T]

Not yet, but sounds interesting. Most of my perspective I got from guys like Alan Watts and Eckhart Tolle, who got most of their perspective from Buddhism I think.

Animals seem to do brilliantly without this illusion, so no I don't think this is the case at all. The motivation to spread our genes around, and protect our offspring, and to survive, is in our very nature. It's not "our" motivation that does this; it's nature doing this through us. It has nothing to do with "us". Without our sense of self; we would just be nature; in the same way that the wolves in the woods are just nature. They are real, but one might say, In a way, that they are not real; not as separate individuals, because they don't exist as wolves to themselves, probably not even aware of themselves as living beings. You need the (dis)ability to conceptionalize to see yourself separate from nature. This is how we are brought into existence, and this is how death is born. We literally make up death with our minds, and we bring death to ourselves and everyone and everything around us with this thinking. I don't see this as success. It's a flaw.

When the brain dies - the illusion dies with it, sure. I agree. But then another brain gets produced, and a new illusion takes hold and through this illusion we get born again.

My two cents.

We don't really know that animals have no sense of self. So I am not sure your comments are valid. I would argue that human sense of self as it evolved is an advantage to the species and you only have to look at the world to see this as true.

I am glad you agree the illusion dies with the brain. Your claim then that another brain is produced is pretty much meaningless - because it will be somebody else and not me. We can conceptualize anything we want - doesn't make it true. You have not defined adequately what it is that gets born again. Also - the increasing population. There are more people being born than dying. How does your model account for that?

 

[danielthor]

What I think we are saying is that this new illusion is not the same "I" who died, that "I" subjective experience is finished, completed, and it's light off for him. According to Buddhism, the skandhas will mix to create a new being, as I was saying, but the old "I" 's subjective experience is light outs, they are gone forever and unconscious. Like when you are under general anaesthesia.

Yes, exactly!

Also, when the sun will go red, if humanity is still around (I strongly doubt it) all beings will die. What will happen then to rebirth/reincarnation? All life will cease instantly. That seems to put a hard stop to reincarnation/rebirth, unless we talk about other worlds/realms etc.

Alan Watts talks about the life of a human as like a game of hide and seek; the Universe (Consciousness) playing with itself. When this game is over, I guess there is nothing left to do but to be in nirvana. The Universe will probably get bored of this though, and eventually it will conjure up something new to play through. Its imagination is literally endless.

Reincarnation doesn't have to happen. It's not there for the sake of us. It is simply something for the universe to do. And by the universe I don't mean the galaxy. In this case I'm using it as a word for the wordless; the infinite formlessness that is behind all of this. There is nothing outside of it, so even if the sun dies out and all beings seize to be, it has only to imagine these things anew for them to be there again. For "us" to be there again.

We don't really know that animals have no sense of self. So I am not sure your comments are valid.

Ok, that's true. But even if they do have a sense of self; it doesn't change the fact that they are one with nature and the universe.

I would argue that human sense of self as it evolved is an advantage to the species and you only have to look at the world to see this as true.

What exactly about the world confirms this to you? Are you referring to the industrial revolution, the technological revolution, our expedition into space, our art? These things are only advantages within the confines of humanity. They are not objective advantages. Ask a fish what it thinks about Mozart, or a tree about what it thinks about us going to space. Ask our caveman-ancestors about the comforts of society, and they will just laugh at us before they club us to death. These things are an advantage to us, because we don't know how to live in any other way. To the universe, it's irrelevant. It would be perfectly fine without them.

I am glad you agree the illusion dies with the brain. Your claim then that another brain is produced is pretty much meaningless - because it will be somebody else and not me.

Yes, we've established this. It's just a question of identification. You identify with you, and so you will die. I identify with the universe that's beyond myself, and so I'm immortal. Believe it or not, but your identification is up to you. There is no universal law that says that you are "you". It's just a given; by society, that you are you, that this is your body, and that when it dies, you die. But identification is relative. It is completely up to oneself what what one identifies as. It's not a fixed feature. We've just been brought up to function this way.

Objectively speaking, literally; the only thing that is separating me from being the universe right now, is that little voice inside my head telling me my name is danielthor, I'm 29, I live in Denmark, I have horrible tinnitus & hyperacusis, and me thinking and believing that that's what I am.

This voice is not even my own. It was given to me by society. It's a social-construct. And no matter what this voice says, and no matter if I believe it or or not, it actually still does not change the fact that I am the universe. I don't even need to know that I am the universe for me to be the universe. The universe knows it for me. It knows it for everybody.

We can conceptualize anything we want - doesn't make it true. You have not defined adequately what it is that gets born again. Also - the increasing population. There are more people being born than dying. How does your model account for that?

I think my answer to this is somewhere in the reply to @Chinmoku.

 

[Jerad]

Tinnitus plagued his mind. Within its feral darkness, long he sat in shock... long he mourned life's bitter hand and why it had been dealt, as he thought and cried and wished he'd died when he heard those nasty tones... the sounds that led to pain and madness, the sounds that threw a feeble mind into a shallow grave. A man of haughty stature, once so glorious and quite profound, was now subdued and fried, as he met his maker in the shadows... and simply passed away.

 

[Stuart-T]

What exactly about the world confirms this to you?

That's quite funny - you make many esoteric and metaphysical claims with no real evidence beyond speculation - then you ask me to confirm why humans have evolved with a sense of self. But it's ok - I try to avoid making claims unless I can support them.

If this ego that we have evolved was not an advantage to us as a species - we would not have it. Those genetic mutations which had a weaker form of self would have evolved instead and we would be closer to other primates. Why are we masters of the primates? Why can we put gorillas in zoos - but they can't imprison us? Oh I know they can tear us apart if we threaten them - but when push comes to shove - we could put the whole lot of them in zoos and even wipe them out if we want. We also will have - unlike all other species - the means to leave this planet and colonise other worlds. Leaving behind every other species to annihilation when the sun dies. That is an objective advantage - ultimate survival of the species (some animals do like Mozart by the way!)

You have claimed that the universe can imagine whatever it wants into existence. This sounds to me like theism - a conscious omnipotent agent.

You identify with you, and so you will die. I identify with the universe that's beyond myself, and so I'm immortal.

How you identify will also most likely die at body death. So it makes no difference - we both are going to the same place when we die. I can be the universe too - for all the good it will do me. But I am not the universe - I am my body as it is and this thinking observing mind which depends on my brain for survival. There is nothing else to me as far as I am aware.

my name is danielthor, I'm 29, I live in Denmark, I have horrible tinnitus & hyperacusis, and me thinking and believing that that's what I am.

You can persuade yourself that you are the universe if you want - but your experience is telling you different.

Obviously I am skeptical about your world view. I once accepted a lot of the type of ideas you are proposing at one time in my life. Until I realised that my critique of Christianity and theism in general also applied to the woo new age-y Buddhist inspired propositions which were being presented to me by the crowd of meditators I was mixing with at that time. So I decided not to rule out anything - but also not to allow myself to hold beliefs which did not stand the true test of honest scrutiny.

I don't want eternal life. This one will do. I need to focus on it and make the best of it assuming I won't get another one.

 

[Chinmoku]

Reincarnation doesn't have to happen. It's not there for the sake of us. It is simply something for the universe to do. And by the universe I don't mean the galaxy. In this case I'm using it as a word for the wordless; the infinite formlessness that is behind all of this. There is nothing outside of it, so even if the sun dies out and all beings seize to be, it has only to imagine these things anew for them to be there again. For "us" to be there again.

But this sort of sentient dynamic void that imagines things into existence poses many of the same problems as a creator God. It resembles some of the Mahayana Buddhist schools. Well at least there is no pretense that the universe or void is good or fatherly, but the level of speculation is still wild. And if the universe has no better way of expressing itself and becoming self conscious than us, with the tons of problems and pains we have, well it looks like a very poor universe. It certainly could have done better than this. Also, one would expect a universe rife with sentient life in this case, instead Fermi's paradox still stands, where is everybody? Not a single signal of alien intelligence from the SETI project in years and years. Life, with all its predatory built-in laws and miseries seems an incident to me more than anything else, although the phenomenon of consciousness is truly puzzling.

 

[GregCA]

Over 3000 religious deities have existed since the dawn of time, you don't believe in 2999 of them, I just don't believe in one more.

 

[Damocles]

I don't want eternal life. This one will do. I need to focus on it and make the best of it assuming I won't get another one.

Pissing all over the beliefs that sustain and provide comfort to people in their time of misery is definitely a good focus for the remainder of your days in this cold hard fluke of happenstance.

Steven Seagal approves!

 

[Stuart-T]

Tinnitus plagued his mind. Within its feral darkness, long he sat in shock... long he mourned life's bitter hand and why it had been dealt, as he thought and cried and wished he'd died when he heard those nasty tones... the sounds that led to pain and madness, the sounds that threw a feeble mind into a shallow grave. A man of haughty stature, once so glorious and quite profound, was now subdued and fried, as he met his maker in the shadows... and simply passed away.

View attachment 52137

Brilliant - nobody on this board can match your creativity in language for expressing the misery of tinnitus.

 

[danielthor]

That's quite funny - you make many esoteric and metaphysical claims with no real evidence beyond speculation - then you ask me to confirm why humans have evolved with a sense of self. But it's ok - I try to avoid making claims unless I can support them.

No, no, no. I asked you what about the world confirms to you, that this human sense of self as it envolved, was an advantage to "us"; (not as the human species, but to what I believe is the true us, which is the universe).

I'm not asking you to confirm anything to me.

I am also not claiming the world to be in any way. I might have, but I don't mean to. I hope it's clear that what I'm doing is just showing a different perspective; new ways in which to view the world that you can just take or leave. This perspective is enough to literally change your entire identity. That's all it takes, and it can not be denied. Unlike a lot of things that are being claimed here, this change of identity into the universe is there in clear sight wether you want to subscribe to it or not.

As an example, here's a quote by Alan Watts on the issue of reincarnation:

"Statement One: After I die, I shall be reborn again as a baby, but I shall forget my former life. Statement two: After I die, a baby will be born. Now, I believe that those two statements are saying exactly the same thing, and we know the second one is true. Babies are always being born."​

Can you deny this? No, because it's not claiming anything. It is inviting you to view yourself differently. Your view of your self is a not a biological fix. Again, it is completely and totally up to you. It is whatever you believe it is.

As to whether or not there will be a new sense of "I" after this one dies; again, I don't think it's so strange to think there could. But that's all I'm saying, and all I can say. What I know for sure is that it doesn't matter, because from my perspective, as the universe, I am already infinitely reincarnating. I'm cycling through the entire chain of being, as everything and everyone, since forever to forever. My belief is that you are too; you're just not conscious of it, and in my belief again; it doesn't matter if you're conscious of it or not. You are still infinitely reincarnating.

How you identify will also most likely die at body death. So it makes no difference - we both are going to the same place when we die. I can be the universe too - for all the good it will do me. But I am not the universe - I am my body as it is and this thinking observing mind which depends on my brain for survival. There is nothing else to me as far as I am aware.

You can persuade yourself that you are the universe if you want - but your experience is telling you different.

You don't know what my experience is telling me. And the fact that you think you know, makes sense as to why you seem to think there is nothing else to you than what you can grasp with your thinking mind.

There is actually not a single proof that tells us that we are our bodies, is there? Not one. Science still has not found us yet. They cannot find us in our brains. They can't find us anywhere. Have you ever wondered this? The reason for this I think is quite simple; it's because we are not in our brains; We are not anywhere. Consciousness is not located in any particular place. It is everywhere, it is all things, all people, everything. It is those scientists who are trying to find it in people's brains; It is the surgical tools they use to open the brain with; It is the brain; It is the things that are in the brain; And it is the disappointment they feel when they in 1000 years still have not yet found it in the brain. It's another word for God, and Universe; the formless infinate. This is what I believe I am and this is what I believe will reincarnate "me".

If this ego that we have evolved was not an advantage to us as a species - we would not have it. Those genetic mutations which had a weaker form of self would have evolved instead and we would be closer to other primates. Why are we masters of the primates? Why can we put gorillas in zoos - but they can't imprison us? Oh I know they can tear us apart if we threaten them - but when push comes to shove - we could put the whole lot of them in zoos and even wipe them out if we want. We also will have - unlike all other species - the means to leave this planet and colonise other worlds. Leaving behind every other species to annihilation when the sun dies. That is an objective advantage - ultimate survival of the species (some animals do like Mozart by the way!)

It's an objective advantage to us, because we have a total identification with us. But we are not us; we are the universe and to the universe these advancements are irrelevant. It would be fine without them, because it's perfect as it is, always has been.

You have claimed that the universe can imagine whatever it wants into existence. This sounds to me like theism - a conscious omnipotent agent.

Yeah, that's me claiming shit. I wouldn't take it too seriously.

I don't want eternal life. This one will do. I need to focus on it and make the best of it assuming I won't get another one.

Again, I want to make perfectly clear I don't mean a reincarnation of you, as a person, as Stuart. I don't believe that's the essence of who you are. The essence of who you are, which is the Universe, will be produced anew after you die into a totally new being with a totally new experience and a totally new sensation of "I". This is not Stuart. It will have nothing to do with Stuart. There is no eternal life as a person; only as the universe.

But this sort of sentient dynamic void that imagines things into existence poses many of the same problems as a creator God. It resembles some of the Mahayana Buddhist schools. Well at least there is no pretense that the universe or void is good or fatherly, but the level of speculation is still wild.

Yeah, I'm not too sure about that one either. I shouldn't have claimed it like that.

And if the universe has no better way of expressing itself and becoming self conscious than us, with the tons of problems and pains we have, well it looks like a very poor universe. It certainly could have done better than this.

Its expression is through all things. Not just humans, but (with regards to incarnation) since the sensation of "I" can only take place in a human, or at the very most; an animal (maybe an alien); it will be through those things that we are born. And what might look pisspoor to us might look completely different in "the eyes" of the universe. Going back to what Alan Watts' said about human life being nothing but a game of hide and seek that the universe is playing with itself; maybe it takes real delight in the challenge of finding itself. In which case; human life would be the perfect opponant, exactly because of all its problems and pains, its reliance on science and stubborm insistance on being the human that it was brought up to be. Because it refuses to be found. Then again, maybe it's not here to become conscious of itself through humans; maybe it's here for the human experience of problems and pains and limitations.