Tinnitus News

[Damocles]

The thing I'm conflicted with most about the current BTA proposition is their statement that having a biobank will also enable the objective measurement of tinnitus severity.

We already have evidence on this forum that a measurement of tinnitus severity has been achieved with @DebInAustralia who participated in the Bionics Institute (ongoing) study and posted some of that communication here.

I'm sure the BTA don't have time to sift through Tinnitus Talk but in the context of the biobank proposal I'm quite surprised that more hasn't been made of the news coming out of Australia.

I have to admit this completely evaded my notice (spending too much time in CCAAT with brain cells turning to mush), so thank you for linking @DebInAustralia's post here.

All I can guess, is that perhaps they don't think much of the method? or feel there's still a ways to go in actually diagnosing tinnitus.

Either way, seeing as it's our information we'd be handing over, I think we're within our rights to ask the question.

Very astute and valuable commentary, Damocles, especially encapsulated in your remark, "Just where do they find these people?"

In September 2019 I was so exasperated with how this condition is so inexcusably trivialized and given such short shrift that I posted the following:

"With all due respect, I have been analyzing all sorts of websites on tinnitus ever since I got this condition on 01/2014 and I have encountered so many tragic, heartbreaking notices of suicides that I eventually lost count. This includes reporters' articles from interviews with the ATA, personal stories on all sorts of YouTube sites, reports from the British News Media, and most tellingly the number of sufferers who once posted on this forum who were never heard from again (or who we learned about for a fact).

Let's not forget the consequential pathologies from this condition such as alcoholism, drug addiction, divorce, incapacitation that led to lifelong reclusiveness, domestic and other forms of violence, lives generally ruined that led to homelessness, and misdiagnoses that led to treatments for unrelated mental illnesses."​

Yeah, I've done my fair share of miring in addiction to cope with my tinnitus in the past @DaveFromChicago, and it is truly laughable how self-flagellating the road to recovery is when you finally choose to participate in its established therapies.

The unchallengeable doctrine that: there is something fundamentally wrong with you at your core; an illness of the soul that can only be treated via a daily ritual of scrutinising one's self, and that it must all stem from childhood trauma.

When I've tried (in the past) to explain to those same people applying the therapy, that: my addiction is as the result of practically all opportunity of living a happy and fulfilling life, disappearing down the drain for me at the age of 20, and that the majority of their treatments are both physically impossible and painful to me, their faces betray the only thought their minds can settle upon to keep the world from slipping into a Lovecraftian world of nightmare chaos: "this guy is just making excuses to stay living in the addiction".

So I guess if you can't blame your parents, you can't get sober. Just how it is. ¯\_ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

By the way, I hope you all listened to @Hazel and submitted a video of your tinnitus experience. We need to make a good video for awareness.

Thank you for reminding everyone of this @DocTors_94. I had completely forgotten about it, and definitely need to think of how I can contribute to it.

The fact that Tinnitus Talk didn't receive enough submissions to go ahead with the video last year is quite heart-breaking.

Check! I never drank like I do since getting tinnitus. You are one of my favorite posters.

Several of us here really value @DaveFromChicago's posts. Unfortunately he is something of a legend that is quite underappreciated on here (imo). But legends, sadly, often are, in their (own) time.

My main worry is that my daughter gets tinnitus because she is genetically predisposed. I have nightmares about it all the time, but what can I do, she has to go to nursery, school etc.

@makeyourownluck, please don't fret over this too much. A child's anatomy is 1000x more resilient than that of it's adult counterpart's, and able to withstand far more punishment, followed by rapid healing.

I grew up next to a main road in my childhood, with nothing but a thin sheet of glass separating me and my family from constant loud road noise 24/7. This, with the additional frequent use of headphones on my metallic blue SONY Walkman, and my parent's weekend Elvis Costello/Presley concerts in the living room; I endured as much acoustic trauma between 4 and 13 as I did when I first started attending concerts between 14 and 20.

It wasn't until I reached 14 that damage started to make itself evident (through temporary bouts of tinnitus that lasted days), but even then rapidly healed (and disappeared).

So, to summarise, what I'm saying, is that children (generally) from what I've observed on tinnitus forums over the last decade, have a kind of unique immunity to sensory damage. It's not until they reach their mid to late teens that your concern regarding a predisposition to tinnitus might be realised. Thus for now, I would say you can put your mind at ease.

 

[Ed209]

Dave Grohl and Taylor Hawkins discussed their tinnitus and hearing related issues on the Howard Stern show 4 days ago.

 

[Mister Muso]

So says Dave Grohl, who is just about to release a thrash metal album.

Thoughts?

Dave Grohl on his hearing loss: "I've been reading lips for 20 years"

 

[Ed209]

So says Dave Grohl, who is just about to release a thrash metal album.

Thoughts?

Dave Grohl on his hearing loss: "I've been reading lips for 20 years"

I like Dave Grohl; I think he's remained grounded throughout his career and he comes across as a nice guy.

My thoughts are that if he says he's been reading lips for the last 20 years, then he's been reading lips for the last 20 years. For a professional musician, this isn't an uncommon thing to hear. Take Paul Gilbert, for example, he's practically deaf and can't even hear the hi-hats anymore, and he also has tinnitus. There are many others who are exactly the same. People deal with these kinds of problems in their own unique way, and it's just something we have to accept. Paul Gilbert said that the tinnitus doesn't bother him (I know this opens up a can of words regarding how loud his tinnitus may be, etc, but I think it's ok to hear people's honest opinions). Paul Gray said the exact opposite, and detailed in many interviews what a nightmare he lived through.

I liked how Howard Stearn said to Dave, "I love that you can laugh," because, to me at least, it shows that he's approaching that question with the right mentality. By saying that, I think he's acknowledging that it's a serious issue that he seems to be coping well with. That's my take on it.

I don't mind humour when it's done in the right way. I didn't like how they approached it on Loose Women, as a contrasting example. When I interviewed CJ, a professional musician who has seen it all, his first instinct was to crack a light-hearted joke and laugh about it similar to Dave Grohl. However, when we got deep into the interview, it was clear that tinnitus had really messed with his head and he had a very hard time with it. He was brutally honest about it all. It's not uncommon for musicians to give up playing when it gets really bad, and CJ said he knew a few people who had to quit.

If Dave Grohl wants to release a thrash metal album then I say all the power to him. He should live his best life and do all the things he wants to do.

 

[Damocles]

So says Dave Grohl, who is just about to release a thrash metal album.

Thoughts?

Dave Grohl on his hearing loss: "I've been reading lips for 20 years"

It's perfectly believable. He's not suffering tinnitus, just difficulty with speech recognition; a single facet of the technicolour dream-coat that is sensorineural hearing loss.

So live music and studio recording are still open to him (for now).

However, on the subject, I would like to say I am entirely dubious of popular musicians who claim to live with tinnitus, but then continue to do live tours around the world.

None of it adds up with our own experiences, and what we understand about, our affliction.

If your tinnitus was as the result of the occupational hazard of being a musician, then what you have is noise induced tinnitus. If you have noise induced tinnitus, then more noise is going to equal more tinnitus and less hearing; equalling even more tinnitus (as a result of less masking).

To this day I can remember Tom DeLonge doing a making of documentary for Blink-182's self-titled album, and telling the interviewer he could no longer hear anything but ringing. That was 19 years ago, and he has been active all through that time, despite that ringing, allegedly.

This just doesn't make sense, factoring in what I wrote in the sentence before the one above.

So as much as I liked his music, I am going to have to surmise that Tom Delonge (like many musicians) was just bullsh*tting or "joking" about having tinnitus.

To be honest, I can't help but feel that tinnitus, amongst professional and unaffected musicians, is regarded as something of a "cool" accolade that one can flaunt in passing, despite it being mild or in fact not really there at all.

What's your take on this @Ed209? As you're a part-time guitar teacher when you get a break from your full-time job as a crypto rep, if I'm not mistaken?

As someone with severe tinnitus:

Do you stick solely to acoustic?

Would you risk a string of dates over the course of a year where you were playing in a live band?

 

[UKBloke]

I am entirely dubious of popular musicians who claim to live with tinnitus

Likewise.

 

[Wrfortiscue]

It's perfectly believable. He's not suffering tinnitus, just difficulty with speech recognition; a single facet of the technicolour dream-coat that is sensorineural hearing loss.

So live music and studio recording are still open to him (for now).

However, on the subject, I would like to say I am entirely dubious of popular musicians who claim to live with tinnitus, but then continue to do live tours around the world.

None of it adds up with our own experiences, and what we understand about, our affliction.

If your tinnitus was as the result of the occupational hazard of being a musician, then what you have is noise induced tinnitus. If you have noise induced tinnitus, then more noise is going to equal more tinnitus and less hearing; equalling even more tinnitus (as a result of less masking).

To this day I can remember Tom DeLonge doing a making of documentary for Blink-182's self-titled album, and telling the interviewer he could no longer hear anything but ringing. That was 19 years ago, and he has been active all through that time, despite that ringing, allegedly.

This just doesn't make sense, factoring in what I wrote in the sentence before the one above.

So as much as I liked his music, I am going to have to surmise that Tom Delonge (like many musicians) was just bullsh*tting or "joking" about having tinnitus.

To be honest, I can't help but feel that tinnitus, amongst professional and unaffected musicians, is regarded as something of a "cool" accolade that one can flaunt in passing, despite it being mild or in fact not really there at all.

What's your take on this @Ed209? As you're a part-time guitar teacher when you get a break from your full-time job as a crypto rep, if I'm not mistaken?

As someone with severe tinnitus:

Do you stick solely to acoustic?

Would you risk a string of dates over the course of a year where you were playing in a live band?

Just gonna say I had tinnitus as a young teen for a long time. I smashed the shit out of my drums next to loud guitar amps for years. These guys are doing the same.

There's a difference between straight tone habituated stable tinnitus, vs. up and down unstable multi-tone tinnitus with some pain and loss of sleep.

 

[DocTors_94]

It's perfectly believable. He's not suffering tinnitus, just difficulty with speech recognition; a single facet of the technicolour dream-coat that is sensorineural hearing loss.

So live music and studio recording are still open to him (for now).

However, on the subject, I would like to say I am entirely dubious of popular musicians who claim to live with tinnitus, but then continue to do live tours around the world.

None of it adds up with our own experiences, and what we understand about, our affliction.

If your tinnitus was as the result of the occupational hazard of being a musician, then what you have is noise induced tinnitus. If you have noise induced tinnitus, then more noise is going to equal more tinnitus and less hearing; equalling even more tinnitus (as a result of less masking).

To this day I can remember Tom DeLonge doing a making of documentary for Blink-182's self-titled album, and telling the interviewer he could no longer hear anything but ringing. That was 19 years ago, and he has been active all through that time, despite that ringing, allegedly.

This just doesn't make sense, factoring in what I wrote in the sentence before the one above.

So as much as I liked his music, I am going to have to surmise that Tom Delonge (like many musicians) was just bullsh*tting or "joking" about having tinnitus.

To be honest, I can't help but feel that tinnitus, amongst professional and unaffected musicians, is regarded as something of a "cool" accolade that one can flaunt in passing, despite it being mild or in fact not really there at all.

What's your take on this @Ed209? As you're a part-time guitar teacher when you get a break from your full-time job as a crypto rep, if I'm not mistaken?

As someone with severe tinnitus:

Do you stick solely to acoustic?

Would you risk a string of dates over the course of a year where you were playing in a live band?

Agree. I very much doubt they would really have debilitating tinnitus and still continue performing. Furthermore, without hearing protection (Dave Grohl "doesn't want to look like a fucking mantis"). I wouldn't risk a cent if I had mild/moderate or severe (me) tinnitus. Not worth at all, I would rather live like a monk in a silent house and watch movies in silence with no audio for the rest of my life, and I am not even kidding.

 

[Damocles]

Using painkilling drugs every day can increase the risk of developing tinnitus by 20% | Daily Mail Online

The researchers, who published their findings last week in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, gathered data from nearly 70,000 women who took part in a Conservation of Hearing Study - a large-scale investigation into hearing loss and tinnitus.

The study began 20 years ago, where a group of women aged 31 to 48 were regularly screened for hearing loss or other auditory conditions.

They found that women who regularly used COX-2 inhibitors like Celecoxib, twice or more per week have a 20 percent increased risk of developing tinnitus.

Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, often called NSAIDs, like Aleve and Advil used frequently with acetaminophen - Tylenol - can increase risk of tinnitus by 20 percent as well.

Using moderate doses of aspirins six or seven days out of the week was also found to elevate tinnitus risk by 20 percent.

Quite interesting.

The study only included women between 31 to 48 20 years ago

Study was conducted at a women's university, hence why the headline was stupidly titled "Using painkilling drugs every day can increase the risk of developing tinnitus in women by 20%".

I doubt women are any more susceptible than men here, but it would have been good if they had included men in the study, just to completely determine that.

and they found younger women were more at risk

So for now I'll choose to read that as younger people*. But again, interesting.

'Based on these findings, it will be informative to examine whether avoidance of analgesics may help alleviate tinnitus symptoms,' Curhan said.

No. But it might help to prevent some people from developing tinnitus caused by ototoxicity in the future.

Tinnitus is a generally overlooked condition that can have severe negative effects on a person's overall quality of life.

Yes.

The condition can be debilitating to some, and cause major negative impact on their way of life.

Yes!

The Mayo Clinic warns that the condition can disrupt sleep cycles, cause anxiety, irritability, concentration issues and depression.

Wait... "disrupt"?

It is most frequently associated with ringing in the ears, but it can also manifest itself as other ambient sounds.

"Ambient sounds"? Anyone here got ambient sounds?

There is no 'cure' for the condition

Exactly.

but it can be treated using hearing aids and some relaxation therapies have also showed promise combating the condition.

 

[ZFire]

I'm glad I stopped using NSAIDs since 2012. I'm not sure if I'm extremely allergic to it than most, but taking just one Aspirin pill turns my tinnitus into a loud jet engine for about roughly 48 hours. If my memory serves me right, I took it on 2 occasions spanning 3 months apart and that's when I finally connected the dots that the NSAID was the culprit. I vowed never to take any NSAIDs ever again.

 

[buttercake]

Rock musicians just brag about it, it is probably some sort of pride among their community.

The Italian rapper Caparezza has tinnitus and he talked several times about his (real) struggle. I believe him. He also wrote and produced a song about it, Larsen.

 

[bobvann]

I don't get how they can. Perhaps they have too much to lose? I was a drummer and had to retire from the instrument thanks to this shit.

 

[Ed209]

It's perfectly believable. He's not suffering tinnitus, just difficulty with speech recognition; a single facet of the technicolour dream-coat that is sensorineural hearing loss.

So live music and studio recording are still open to him (for now).

I've only just seen this post hence why it's taken so long to reply. The problem I have with your final sentence is that it's presumptuous and is based on the experiences of others. Everybody deals with adversity and problems with their health in their own unique way, and I'm not just talking about tinnitus. When it comes to professional musicians, they are in the highest risk bracket along with those in the armed forces. So, it's safe to assume that many pros will have severe tinnitus and hearing loss purely because of their consistent exposure to harmful noise.

I express my feelings regarding this subject in this thread (it's easier to go here as I'll just be reiterating the same points):

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/posts/484552/

To be honest, I can't help but feel that tinnitus, amongst professional and unaffected musicians, is regarded as something of a "cool" accolade that one can flaunt in passing, despite it being mild or in fact not really there at all.

This is not a true reflection of things. I've been a professional musician for a large part of my life and I know this world well at a working level. I've never heard anyone say tinnitus is "cool," but I've had many discussions with people who have spoken of their problems and issues with it (particularly during the first few years of a bad onset or worsening). These discussions have included top producers and players, etc.

If your tinnitus was as the result of the occupational hazard of being a musician, then what you have is noise induced tinnitus. If you have noise induced tinnitus, then more noise is going to equal more tinnitus and less hearing; equalling even more tinnitus (as a result of less masking).

To this day I can remember Tom DeLonge doing a making of documentary for Blink-182's self-titled album, and telling the interviewer he could no longer hear anything but ringing. That was 19 years ago, and he has been active all through that time, despite that ringing, allegedly.

This is most likely true. The motive to lie here is rather pointless, but what it does show is that some are determined to continue regardless of the severe ringing (and it's usually driven by their love of music, and maybe fame and money). It's interesting you acknowledge that musicians are at a great risk - due to their continued exposure - but then question the validity of their claims. This is a paradox. Other members here have made the same argument as you in the thread I linked above. I find it illogical.

There is a wide spectrum of tinnitus symptoms and severities, but there is also a variation in how one ultimately deals with it. My dad is a classic example of someone who can deal with hardship extremely well. He has extreme tinnitus, severe hearing loss, and he also lost the sight in one eye, but he's never been phased by it. On the flip side, if I had to deal with what he's had to deal with it would have folded me in half and crushed my spirit in a heartbeat. We are all different in how we cope and deal with things.

What's your take on this @Ed209? As you're a part-time guitar teacher when you get a break from your full-time job as a crypto rep, if I'm not mistaken?

I'm a full time teacher; part time loser.

As someone with severe tinnitus:

Do you stick solely to acoustic?

No, I play electric also, but I predominantly play acoustic nowadays out of laziness and ease of transport.

Would you risk a string of dates over the course of a year where you were playing in a live band?

I think it depends on the opportunity. If a legendary artist or band asked me to do a few shows then I'd probably jump at the chance with the best ear defence in mind. However, would I do it for an average pro group doing clubs? At this stage, probably not, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future. I have a feeling I will return to do select live performances in the coming years.

 

[Ed209]

I had Jeremy Vine on in the background this morning, and then my ears pricked up when they started talking about hearing loss and tinnitus.

One of their guests said he has severe tinnitus.

 

[Rockman]

→ Turn down the volume as WHO sets new safe limit for music venues

 

[Damocles]

→ Turn down the volume as WHO sets new safe limit for music venues

Young people risk hearing loss from loud music in venues such as nightclubs and concerts, the World Health Organization (WHO) said as it issued a new global standard for safe listening.

The WHO also said that it recommended live monitoring of sound levels and designated "quiet zones" at venues.

When I was a teenager we called those the toilets, because they were the only place you could hear what the person with you was saying.

The risk of hearing loss is intensified because most audio devices, venues and events do not provide safe listening options, Bente Mikkelsen, WHO director for the department for noncommunicable diseases said on Wednesday.

The best part of this entire story, is how, when I was a lad wrecking my ears at concerts, I used to think that the sound levels were already being monitored.

When my ears were dying from the screech of the live music, I used to think, there must be something wrong with my ears, because the sound technicians have got this all under control, right?

What the f*ck do those guys even do if this wasn't already being implemented?

Just more evidence that we are in fact living in Clown World. (I guess @Emperor-Drax already knew).

 

[Damocles]

Basically a nightmare come true.

Let's be real, how long before there's nowhere in the world where this isn't happening?

Petition to help the residents and force the council to resolve the issue can be signed here.

 

[Ed209]

Likewise.

Why? It makes no sense to think this way as musicians are exposed to far more hazardous noise than the average person. It's a logical fallacy.

For example, members here recommend that people stay away from prolonged exposures to dangerous levels of noise. Well, musicians are often exposed on a daily basis for months at a time (for decades of their lives). If they aren't getting bad tinnitus and other hearing-related issues then why are we recommending that others be wary of exposure?

You cannot believe that both statements are true without contradicting yourself. It's why I've never understood posts that state that musicians don't have bad tinnitus. It's illogical and silly.

There are musicians that are on record as having catastrophic/severe tinnitus that still tour.

 

[UKBloke]

Why?

For me at the time those posts were going live there was a nuance to the conversation. But I'll be more specific. I'm dubious of rock musicians who hold tinnitus up as some kind of trophy.

 

[Ed209]

Rock musicians just brag about it, it is probably some sort of pride among their community.

This is also a logical fallacy. You are taking an entire demographic - who are the most at risk - and saying that they think it's no big deal.

What is there to be proud of? I think some may be taking too much from this Liam Gallagher quote from a decade ago:

Without a doubt I have tinnitus. You're not a proper rock 'n' roll star if you don't. "I learned to live with it a long time ago. I put up with it - I just talk really loudly over it.​

Take his more recent comments and you'll see they are just sound bytes:

The whole concept of your statement that rockstars just brag about it is not true. I've been involved in this world professionally for years and I've never come across anyone bragging about it. It is seen as a cost of doing the job they love, and it's a debilitating one.

Let's not forget that it ultimately led to Craig Gill's suicide after he lived and toured with it for decades. Many other high profile "rockstars" have spoken about how badly tinnitus and other hearing related issues have affected their lives. For example:

Al Di Meola (still tours):

I have a severe, what they categorize as 'catastrophic tinnitus.' Catastrophic means that the level is so loud that it's off the charts.

I have to sleep with white noise and take medication and all kinds of stuff. And it's 24/7, it doesn't fluctuate, ever. It's just super-loud screaming in my head that I can't shut off.​

Paul Gray (still tours after taking years off):

My tinnitus sounds like a permanent series of high pitched frequencies in both ears. The best way I can describe it is like the sound of crashing cymbals mixed with the whine of a jet engine.

It impacts on every single part of my life. It is very difficult to chill out and relax. I can't partake in social events like going to the theatre or any live entertainment really. It's far easier to just not go out at all.

You can get to a very bleak place with it, and you have to lean to deal with it as there is no real alternative.

My tinnitus has prevented me from enjoying a stress-free night out or even a stress-free day. The slightest noise can trigger a "fight or flight" reaction; somebody shouting, cars, the air brakes on buses, passing trains, music, even a door banging. The sound generated by something as innocent as a child's laugh or the timbre of someone's voice affects my condition in such a way it means that I am permanently on edge. Simple pleasures like going to the pub for a drink or going out for a meal are difficult as the banging and clinking of the glasses, loud voices and the sound of cutlery on plates is extremely uncomfortable, which make it impossible to relax.

The earplugs buy me an hour or two on stage, so I have been doing a bit of selective playing again, but it's not just the music, it's the people shouting and clapping and clinking of glasses. I can't stay with my friends after I have performed like I used to.​

Jeff Beck (still touring):

Yes, it's in my left ear. It's excruciating... I mean, it's the worst thing 'cause it's not... It never... It does go away - it's not true to say that it doesn't but, uhh... It doesn't... The doctors say it won't... It isn't actually going away - you've just gotta suppress... They try to come to terms with what it actually... Why some people fear it - that's the psychology behind it. They know it's there but why is it such a horrible sound? Well, you can say why is a guy scratching at a window with his nails such a horrible sound - I couldn't put up with that! This is worse!

As Jeff told MTV - June 1993, He was asked to do a special guest spot with Guns 'n' Roses but had to cancel out. Jeff was going to play "Locomotive" with the band, but during the rehearsals, he used Slash's amp rig which aggravated his tinnitus forcing him to drop out of the gig

Yeah. Its misery. It is the most miserable thing thats ever happened to me. I mean, Ive had two nasty accidents, both involving head injury, which some people have said could be part of the tinnitus, and it may well be - like the fractured skull - but its not been anything like the internal misery - youre locked in a room with your noise, you know. And you run out in the street, and its still there - a bus goes by, and you can still hear it, because its such a high-pitched scream. Its pretty nasty.​

Beethoven (carried on performing):

Beethoven was open about the despair he felt at being unable to hear, but he continued to compose despite his struggles with depression, and experimented with ways to work with his hearing loss. He documented his struggles with tinnitus, the constant ringing in the ears that causes so many frustrations to sufferers today.​

CJ Wildheart (still performing):

That's when it became a major issue and I realised I had to do something about it or I wouldn't be able to play live any more.​

Ryan Adams (took time off, still performing):

The tinnitus I had wasn't just a ringing in the ear; it was so loud I couldn't hear over it. Headaches come with it.​

Ian Hunter (he performed 2 years later):

I'm afraid I'm not very well.

It happened out of the blue three weeks ago; I got hit heavily by tinnitus. It's unrelenting and on doctors orders, I've had to cancel everything for the time being.

You lot know I love to tour - been doing it for 50 years. I hate to let everybody down, but I'm stuck and I can't even go to the post box at the moment never mind a tour. Unhappy is not the word for it. I've had tests - no tumours, but it's loud and incessant and frankly scary.​

Brian Setzer:

It's incredibly nerve-wracking," he says. "I know Jeff Beck had it really bad, we spoke about it. It'll drive you crazy and the only thing to do is to just take a break. Basically, picture a tea kettle going off in your ear 24/7, it'll drive you mad."

He'd been using the earplugs to dampen the volume of the high notes, but hadn't realised they'd worn out with age. "It was getting louder and louder on the stage, I was like, 'Why's everybody playing so loud?' It was the earplugs, so silly, I should have recognised it, but you hurry up and pack up and get on the bus, you don't take the time for yourself."

The ringing impacted more than just Setzer's musical life. "There was a time when just getting to sleep was an incredible task, it's a pain in the ass, but people have it a lot worse," he says. "Like I said, it subsides, you wear different things in your ears to mask it. And I missed the rumble! But I can do it all again, I can ride motorcycles, I can play my guitar through my amp, I'm very lucky. So, you guys that are blasting your guitar amps, wear some earplugs please."​

I could go on and on, but the point I'm making is that these blanket statements are completely misleading, and anyone who works in this field knows this.

Many musicians ended up quitting because of tinnitus, and some have taken their lives because of it. There is no one size fits all about any of this, but one thing I'm sure of is that it isn't seen as something to be proud of, or a bragging right. It's seen as being a pain in the arse by most people.

Paul Gilbert uses industrial earmuffs onstage. He doesn't care about appearances as he's lost so much hearing already that he now protects his hearing at all costs (something he regrets not doing a lot sooner).

For me at the time those posts were going live there was a nuance to the conversation. But I'll be more specific. I'm dubious of rock musicians who hold tinnitus up as some kind of trophy.

It seems a view that's been created on this site more than anything else, in my opinion. It certainly doesn't reflect upon the real world views that I've come across as I don't know anyone that would want tinnitus as a trophy.

However, if opinions are stated enough times in an echo-chamber-like environment, then people start to believe that those views represent a wider worldwide thought or consensus.

 

[UKBloke]

It seems a view that's been created on this site more than anything else, in my opinion.

It's a tinnitus forum.

I don't know anyone that would want tinnitus as a trophy.

This is a response to something that literally wasn't said.

 

[Ed209]

But I'll be more specific. I'm dubious of rock musicians who hold tinnitus up as some kind of trophy.

It certainly doesn't reflect upon the real world views that I've come across as I don't know anyone that would want tinnitus as a trophy.

This is a response to something that literally wasn't said.

?

 

[UKBloke]

?

'who hold tinnitus up'
'would want tinnitus'

There's a distinction.

Anyhow, been having some really good and positive chats here lately but within
one day you've managed to severely piss me off again. So I'll excuse myself from
this exchange.

If you want the last word be my guest.

 

[Damocles]

It's a logical fallacy.

This is also a logical fallacy.

Okay @Ed209, I think it's time to put the logical fallacy down.

'who hold tinnitus up'
'would want tinnitus'

There's a distinction.

Yeah, I had intended on pointing this out when I got back from the gym.

No one at any point in this thread has said anyone would want tinnitus (as a "trophy").

I'm dubious of rock musicians who hold tinnitus up as some kind of trophy.

Why? It makes no sense to think this way as musicians are exposed to far more hazardous noise than the average person.

For example, members here recommend that people stay away from prolonged exposures to dangerous levels of noise. Well, musicians are often exposed on a daily basis for months at a time (for decades of their lives). If they aren't getting bad tinnitus and other hearing-related issues then why are we recommending that others be wary of exposure?

Because some people are predisposed to developing (severe) tinnitus, while a large proportion aren't, and there is currently no way to tell those two categories apart prior to development.

You cannot believe that both statements are true without contradicting yourself. It's why I've never understood posts that state that musicians don't have bad tinnitus. It's illogical and silly.

Actually you can, because similar to what I have just said, there is a strong belief in the likelihood (on this forum) that genetics are an overwhelming factor in whether you will develop tinnitus from hearing loss or not.

You may be a professional musician @Ed209, but I worked in circles amongst musicians my whole life. I worked at several live music venues as a teenager, and I also worked in theatres (where most of the actors were also musicians).

One of my favourite colleagues was in three heavy metal bands and was playing guitar in up to four heavy metal shows a week (without earplugs). Me on the other hand, I probably attended about four live concerts every six-months (with earplugs).

Which one of us developed severe disabling tinnitus?

Last I checked (about 7 years ago), the guy was doing fine and still playing in bands; didn't know anything about tinnitus.

You are taking an entire demographic - who are the most at risk - and saying that they think it's no big deal.

Again, you're putting words in people's mouth's. No one said anything like:

• No musicians have tinnitus
• All musicians are lying about having tinnitus
• All musicians have mild tinnitus
• All musicians are not affected by their tinnitus

These are all just straw-men. You may as well just be having an argument with yourself in your bedroom right now.

My words:

To be honest, I can't help but feel that tinnitus, amongst professional and unaffected musicians, is regarded as something of a "cool" accolade that one can flaunt in passing, despite it being mild or in fact not really there at all.

Professional AND unaffected. Not professional OR unaffected.

Like @UKBloke, I'm saying that musicians who are unaffected think it is cool to either make up, or exaggerate the severity of, their tinnitus.

I am also saying that those musicians that are unaffected are likely to be the ones who continue to tour, despite their claims that they have debilitating tinnitus.

The whole concept of your statement that rockstars just brag about it is not true. I've been involved in this world professionally for years and I've never come across anyone bragging about it. It is seen as a cost of doing the job they love, and it's a debilitating one.

Yes, hence there are scores of people who worked in the music industry on Tinnitus Talk who had to give up their work as a result of it. So maybe a little dubious when another person's attitude is "let's rock on!".

I think some may be taking too much from this Liam Gallagher quote from a decade ago:

Without a doubt I have tinnitus. You're not a proper rock 'n' roll star if you don't. "I learned to live with it a long time ago. I put up with it - I just talk really loudly over it.​

Take his more recent comments and you'll see they are just sound bytes:

View attachment 49352

Here are some pictures of Liam Gallagher taken at concerts and football games from between 2011 and 2021:

Do me a favour and zoom in on his ears in each photo.

I could go on and on

Yes you could. You could in fact upload a thousand testimonies by musicians who claim to be crippled by tinnitus and it would be absolutely meaningless because their testimony is currently unverifiable, just like our own; except we exhibit the severity by not having lives, spending most of our time avoiding noisy places (that's practically everywhere outside the front door), and not attending (or playing at) live events.

but the point I'm making is that these blanket statements are completely misleading, and anyone who works in this field knows this.

No one is making blanket statements here except you; that those of us who are in disbelief at musicians who claim to have tinnitus but continue to do live shows etc. are saying all musicians are lying about having tinnitus.

one thing I'm sure of is that it isn't seen as something to be proud of, or a bragging right.

You're "sure of" the fact that not one single solitary musician in the world, has ever lied about, bragged about, or exaggerated their tinnitus? Like 100%? I mean, if that's the case, then no wonder you're so good at predicting the stock market @Ed209, because you are clearly in possession of some form of omniscience.

It's seen as being a pain in the arse by most people.

You're telling a tinnitus support forum this?

 

[Gb3]

@Ed209, I don't know much about Craig Gill. But I read the article about his apparent suicide. It's just an assumption he killed himself because of tinnitus based on what I read. Sometimes people have other problems and I think we can just assume he did it because of tinnitus.

 

[Gabriel5050]

Ok, so all these musicians seem to have tinnitus. Why didn't I ever hear about it before I had tinnitus myself? It seems you have to follow their every move because they mentioned it one time in some Tweet. If I had so much reach being an artist, I would make sure people knew about tinnitus. They could be doing more advocating for a cure if they cared so much!

 

[makeyourownluck]

I think we all agree that tinnitus is a shit thing to brag about. Why someone would lie about it is beyond me, so yes, I do believe these artists have tinnitus, to what extent, I have no idea, and quite frankly, I don't care.

However, I do believe that some people use bravado as a coping mechanism. In fact, Liam's comment reminds me of a post I read by @Steph1710, where her friends said you aren't really metal if you don't have tinnitus (something like that anyway). I actually think it's a form of CBT, where you relate your tinnitus to something you love. Ask Liam at a different time and he says "I struggle with sleep". To me all this shows is the mental flip flop in a suffers brain, and the inability to implement coping mechanisms 100% of the time.

I think both sides of this argument feel like the other is making sweeping generalisation, and it's just a misunderstanding. Some musicians undoubtedly have severe tinnitus. However, I also believe that genetics play a larger role in its development, and that some musicians with severe hearing loss may only have mild tinnitus.

I think @Gabriel5050 hit the nail on the head though. Why are these musicians not doing more to raise awareness? I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone, and have warned all of my friends and family. Although I must admit, none of them have really taken me seriously, except my partner, no doubt because he has seen me struggle firsthand.

 

[buttercake]

Ok, so all these musicians seem to have tinnitus. Why didn't I ever hear about it before I had tinnitus myself? It seems you have to follow their every move because they mentioned it one time in some Tweet. If I had so much reach being an artist, I would make sure people knew about tinnitus. They could be doing more advocating for a cure if they cared so much!

Imagine Sunn O))) being a tinnitus advocate.

 

[Ed209]

I don't know much about Craig Gill. But I read the article about his apparent suicide. It's just an assumption he killed himself because of tinnitus based on what I read. Sometimes people have other problems and I think we can just assume he did it because of tinnitus.

It's well known amongst his friends and family that tinnitus was the cause of his suicide. An open verdict was recorded because there wasn't a note, but those closest to him knew how badly it was plaguing his life and how desperate he was for a solution. They did a tinnitus fundraiser afterwards in his name.

Ok, so all these musicians seem to have tinnitus. Why didn't I ever hear about it before I had tinnitus myself? It seems you have to follow their every move because they mentioned it one time in some Tweet. If I had so much reach being an artist, I would make sure people knew about tinnitus. They could be doing more advocating for a cure if they cared so much!

Some have worked with hearing charities and have auctioned off rare guitars and other memorabilia (as well as donating money, etc). I know Al Di Meola has raised money via a Canadian tinnitus charity, numerous times, and all the money went directly to Bryan Allman, a tinnitus researcher. I know this because I was in contact with the charity a few years back and we got talking about various stuff, and one of the things he talked about was all the artists that have helped out. He mentioned that Ozzy and Sharon had been excellent, and there were others like Michael Shipley (Grammy award-winning producer), a famous country guy whose name I've forgotten, and a few more. I've still got the messages.

People can be doing a lot behind the scenes without anyone knowing about it, and that's just how some like to operate, I suppose. I would say the same message applies to all of us, though, when you say "They could be doing more advocating for a cure if they cared so much!" I know I and many others have tried numerous times to get campaigns up and running that would either raise awareness or money, but it's nigh on impossible to get anyone to do anything, and that's the problem. It's not just a musician thing.

I think both sides of this argument feel like the other is making a sweeping generalisation, and it's just a misunderstanding. Some musicians undoubtedly have severe tinnitus. However, I also believe that genetics play a larger role in its development, and that some musicians with severe hearing loss may only have mild tinnitus.

I guess I got tired of the sweeping generalisations when it came to musicians. The amount of times I've read things like "they can't have it bad because they still play," or "it's clear that musicians have a mild form," etc, is frankly, ridiculous. I think I summed up my thoughts best in this post from the thread I linked to above:

None of us can ever know what another person experiences when it comes to tinnitus. We only know our own experiences, and that's not enough to presume to know how another person will behave. This is what's known as a cognitive bias. The level at which your tinnitus caused you maximum misery may actually only have been half of what Al Di Meola experiences, for example. This situation could obviously be reversed and it could also be extended to any deviation on a scale from mild to severe between two people.

The point is, nobody knows! To presume to know how loud somebody else's tinnitus is and whether or not they'd stop playing live music is completely flawed as an argument. There are too many variables. I'd agree that the average person would stop playing live if their tinnitus became "severe" (this is still subjective), but I would not be able to extend that to a blanket statement of saying "everyone would quit" without my logic being flawed.

When the CJ interview was released, he was immediately hounded upon on Twitter by some jumped up overzealous hearing advocate. I thought, geez, no wonder nobody wants to do this shit. The guy offers his time to tell his story and he's immediately ripped to shreds for it.

I saw Tommy Emmanuel live last week with Jerry Douglas, and they were phenomenal. I'm going to see my old drummer's band on Saturday, as well. It's been a while since I last went to a live show. Since my tinnitus worsened, I've done about five band rehearsals, two gigs, and have seen maybe 7 bands live, but only in pubs/clubs. That's since June/July 2015

Because of this, I used to get the same messages from people saying "your tinnitus can't be that bad then!" My career ended in my early 30s because of it, and it's not a decision that I took lightly. It destroyed my life and ripped my soul out, and it's kind of infuriating when you have multiple tones and sounds, and screamingly loud tinnitus in your head only to hear others assume to know what you experience on a daily basis.

That is why I made these posts because the presumptuous nature is still present in this thread. "So and so can't have this problem because of this and this," etc. We cannot presume to know what anybody is going through, period. I think it's arrogant and selfish.

 

[Juan]

Ok, so all these musicians seem to have tinnitus. Why didn't I ever hear about it before I had tinnitus myself? It seems you have to follow their every move because they mentioned it one time in some Tweet. If I had so much reach being an artist, I would make sure people knew about tinnitus. They could be doing more advocating for a cure if they cared so much!

Musicians hide it because hearing problems may be considered a sign of diminished performance. For instance, guitar players also suffer from a not-so-common condition that involves the muscles and tendons in their hands, some blockage that makes playing painful or difficult and that forces some of them to stop playing or change the way they play.

No guitar player having that condition wants any of his or her fellow musicians to know about it, as they live off touring, recordings etc... they need to work as anyone else, specially the ones that did not make a ton of money and depend on playing regularly for a living.

Take also into account that the music industry does NOT want consumers to be aware of the dangers of live music, the loudness, the hearing problems, tinnitus and hearing loss...