War in Ukraine — Megathread

[Juan]

So "the West" is sending money and weapons to Ukraine... and both are being stolen by Ukrainians:

Head of Kyiv tax authority accused of multimillion-dollar fraud | Ukraine | The Guardian

 

[ZFire]

you need to address me directly

Sure, no problem:

Leader (Zelenskyy) of the Nazi Azov Battalion, nice going.

I had to quote this silly post of yours in the Celebrity Crush thread lol.

You seem quite obsessed with this Azov battalion thing. Would you like to talk a bit about the vastly larger amount of Neo-Nazis in Russia? How about the Russian National Unity organization, or Great Russia for instance? Maybe you'd like to explain the massive levels of homophobia that exist in Russia?

There have been armed militias with far right views, but the idea that Ukraine is a Nazi state (with a Jewish president no less) is ridiculous.

Saying a few Nazis is like your doctor telling you that you have a few cancer tumors.

Weak sauce. I'll simplify it even further for you since you're having a hard time understanding this:

• Stating the fact that the Azov Battalion exists and that some of their ranks dabble with far-right nationalist rhetoric and neo-nazi symbolism is NOT propaganda.
• Claiming that they are a major influence in the Ukrainian military or the Ukrainian government is propaganda.
• Claiming that their existence proves Putin's justification to "de-nazify" Ukraine is propaganda.
• Claiming that they have larger influence than they actually do is propaganda.
• Ignoring the steps the Ukrainian government has taken to liberalize the country is propaganda.
• Implying that anything having to do with the Azov Battalion somehow justifies Russia's war of aggression on a sovereign nation is propaganda.

Don't delude yourself with false equivalences. Invading an innocent and sovereign country tips the balance pretty heavily (against Russia). Russia has caused far more harm and it's not even close. They need to be stopped at all costs and turned into a pariah state.

You probably don't believe the concentration camps happened.

How did you come to that conclusion?

A sign of weakness when one has to resort to slandering.

Russia hasn't even begun to fight, pal.

 

[Luman]

Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

How many people have to die, in this war: 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, even 50% of the country?

We should have nothing to do with this place. I do not listen to Tucker Carlson or anybody else, but I know damn well that our 55 billion dollars is not going where it is supposed to.

Why has the United States given Ukraine twice the amount that the entire EU has?

We have given them over 50 billion dollars, for more death and destruction, and it is highly doubtful that more than a small percentage gets past greedy hands.

Biden gives speeches that praise MLK and Ghandi, but when you get down to the truth, he is a hawk and a proponent of the War industries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...rome..69i57.7655j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

It never was about helping the people of Ukraine. The US and NATO are using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia to get rid of Putin. Putin has showed massive restraint but he's backed into a corner.

The little fecker has little man syndrome and he has to prove to the world he's bigger than his size 4 shoes.

 

[momus]

All I know is what I read in the newspapers. What is really going on is anyone's guess, and unless someone actually has their feet on the ground over there, it's all guess work. I just want it to be over. There is not one thing I can do about it, and all these news sources w/ doomsday headlines just want the revenue generated from clicking on their posts.

As an American, I vividly remember the war drums beating for invading Iraq. Oddly enough, they're still looking for those weapons of mass destruction. Vietnam? One lie after another from our government and news sources. Afghanistan? So much for "eliminating" the Taliban. The Russians were our allies in WW2, now they're being pitched as a potential enemy. Who can believe what about who, and when?

War should be a last resort, it demonstrates utter failure to communicate, and is always about taking land away from the people currently inhabiting that land. But you can believe this, the sons and daughters of these politicians who start the wars won't be the ones fighting and dying on the battlefields. Why not let Putin and Zelensky fight it out mano mano and let the winner (and the loser) pick up the pieces of the broken lives and bury their dead?

 

[dan]

All I know is what I read in the newspapers. What is really going on is anyone's guess, and unless someone actually has their feet on the ground over there, it's all guess work. I just want it to be over. There is not one thing I can do about it, and all these news sources w/ doomsday headlines just want the revenue generated from clicking on their posts.

As an American, I vividly remember the war drums beating for invading Iraq. Oddly enough, they're still looking for those weapons of mass destruction. Vietnam? One lie after another from our government and news sources. Afghanistan? So much for "eliminating" the Taliban. The Russians were our allies in WW2, now they're being pitched as a potential enemy. Who can believe what about who, and when?

War should be a last resort, it demonstrates utter failure to communicate, and is always about taking land away from the people currently inhabiting that land. But you can believe this, the sons and daughters of these politicians who start the wars won't be the ones fighting and dying on the battlefields. Why not let Putin and Zelensky fight it out mano mano and let the winner (and the loser) pick up the pieces of the broken lives and bury their dead?

It will be over when the fat lady sings...

 

[just1morething]

The little fecker has little man syndrome and he has to prove to the world he's bigger than his size 4 shoes.

The little fecker probably sleeps just fine despite all the death and destruction he caused. I've read he is the richest person in the world, but that ain't enough for his power hungry ego.

 

[Joey72]

The little fecker probably sleeps just fine despite all the death and destruction he caused. I've read he is the richest person in the world, but that ain't enough for his power hungry ego.

And what do you think that sawed off, washed up actor that's running Ukraine is exactly?

 

[just1morething]

And what do you think that sawed off, washed up actor that's running Ukraine is exactly?

I'm not sure, but he seems to demand a lot from NATO. Looks like an endless war at this point. I just hope Putin is ousted somehow and the war ends soon. I wish there was a peace negotiator to end this madness.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

And what do you think that sawed off, washed up actor that's running Ukraine is exactly?

Well here's what we know for now. Little man pushes comedian. Comedian reacts by fighting back. Little man comes with poorly trained troops and old equipment. Comedian cries for help to western countries and surrounding NATO countries. Comedian cries for weapons, all those other countries send guns ammo and money. The people of the world, not including China, see third world war, still in its infantile.

 

[ZFire]

And what do you think that sawed off, washed up actor that's running Ukraine is exactly?

Da tovarisch!

 

[Lane]

I found the following to be a rather fascinating read...

Kremlin-Linked Group Arranged Payments to European Politicians to Support Russia's Annexation of Crimea

For years, a secret organization run from inside Russia's parliament successfully interfered with European policies on occupied Ukraine. Leaked emails give a new overview of the operation and show how European Union politicians who helped push Moscow's agenda were offered cash and perks.

Key Findings

• Leaked emails show how a Duma insider built a network of analysts, journalists, and others who helped him push the Kremlin's interests abroad.
• His group offered cash to European politicians to propose pro-Russian motions in their local legislatures, and paid far-right activists to publish pro-Kremlin articles in European media outlets.
• The network arranged trips to occupied Crimea for European politicians and businessmen, with travel and accommodation covered by Russian state-funded organizations and honoraria apparently offered to some individuals.
• It also helped bring European political figures to Russia to act as election observers, with a 68,000-euro budget allocated to the project.

Previous media reports have shown links between EU politicians and Kremlin propagandists, but this is the first comprehensive insight into how this campaign was run from Russia. The emails show that Mirzakhanian, a well-connected staffer and adviser in Russia's parliament, the Duma, built a network of political analysts, journalists, activists, and academics who helped him push the Kremlin's interests abroad.

Anton Shekhovtsov, chair of the pro-democracy non-profit Centre for Democratic Integrity, said the leaked emails "represent one of the most important sources of our knowledge of how particular engines of the Russian political war machine works."...

 

[Juan]

European politicians are driving the Eurozone to an economic suicide by purchasing expensive American oil and gas, or by purchasing Russian oil from third countries at a hefty price. The middle men are making a ton of money while Europe is on the way to go bankrupt.

Russia to cut oil output in response to price cap by west

 

[Juan]

The US, the EU and the UK are not doing much against Russian oligarchs. In fact, they're doing almost nothing, with Spain letting mega-yachts leave peacefully instead of seizing them, and also letting Mikhail Friedman own DIA supermarket chain. Governments are not seizing oligarchs' properties to pay reparations for the war.

FT Investigations. Wagner leader generated $250mn from sanctioned empire

 

[Rockstar]

We have given them over 50 billion dollars, for more death and destruction, and it is highly doubtful that more than a small percentage gets past greedy hands.

Just found this: "According to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, it would cost $20 billion to end homelessness in the United States."

So it is over $30 billion cheaper to solve homelessness in the USA than shopping for bombs to send to Ukraine.

European politicians are driving the Eurozone to an economic suicide by purchasing expensive American oil and gas, or by purchasing Russian oil from third countries at a hefty price. The middle men are making a ton of money while Europe is on the way to go bankrupt.

Russia to cut oil output in response to price cap by west

I heard lately Ukraine has been getting more desperate by asking poor countries like India to get sanctioned for buying Russian gas soon. That's all India can afford as they aren't rich otherwise more Indians would be starving.

Ukraine wants US to impose sanctions against India - Here's WHY

Imagine you are living in a slum in India and you have a family minding your own business. You are using the gas stove to cook your family dinner when suddenly someone knocks on the door. So you answer and there's an angry Ukrainian man who's a dwarf intimidating you saying you need to turn off your gas and stop buying it from the cheapest source (Russian) as it's the only one you can afford and you don't want to starve your children for him.

Then you remember he also racially abused your neighbours (referencing the Ukrainian soldiers racial abuse of Indian and African students escaping (Not surprising knowing Azov Battalion).

How would you even react? Are you going to just let your family suffer because a short clown is telling you what to do?

 

[Rockstar]

Not a bombed city in Ukraine, but Detroit:

Not a slum in Ukraine, but in Oakland California:

Not innocent civilians getting shot in Ukraine, but in America:

It costs 2/5 of the money sent to Ukraine to solve homelessness. If Mississippi with the weakest economy in America performs the best at reducing homelessness, then there's no excuses for the president to ignore skid row LA in the richest state California.

There's no excuse for the president to make a press conference about a balloon, then hop on a plane to Ukraine without spending 2 minutes going on camera raising awareness about Ohio's disaster. The same disaster that has now poisoned the river which people drink out of and is home to 1/10th of the US population. They arrested a journalist trying to investigate the truth on this.

It's rotten.

 

[ZFire]

So it is over $30 billion cheaper to solve homelessness in the USA than shopping for bombs to send to Ukraine.

The US military-industrial complex has barely showed up for the Ukraine war. So far, most of the weapons — HIMARS, 155mm Howitzers, guns, ammunition, missiles, and equipment — have come directly from US inventory. US is now tapping into a weapons stockpile in Israel to be sent to Ukraine.

BTW, you're whining about US politics in a thread that shouldn't have it. Stick to the topic or go back to the US Presidential Election thread and complain there.

And no offense, you sound like some young recent college grad who thinks they have the world figured out judging by your recent posts. I know because I used to be like that too. You'll figure it out eventually, I hope.

 

[just1morething]

If China is going to help supply Russia with military supplies, this is going to be a disaster, a forever war. The US is giving way too much proportionally to Ukraine than the other NATO members. It should be America first, not America last. Just look at the border crisis and the incompetent fools in the White House saying the border is secure.

 

[Rockstar]

The US military-industrial complex has barely showed up for the Ukraine war. So far, most of the weapons — HIMARS, 155mm Howitzers, guns, ammunition, missiles, and equipment — have come directly from US inventory. US is now tapping into a weapons stockpile in Israel to be sent to Ukraine.

Nice list of weapons. Housing for the homeless please; it's cheaper than $50 billion. As I have said "no excuses".

BTW, you're whining about US politics in a thread that shouldn't have it. Stick to the topic or go back to the US Presidential Election thread and complain there.

I am mentioning Ukraine and why it's a going to be another wasteful war that will ultimately fail just like the past ones. Next thing you know, they'll be more slums and civil unrest in America. There's reasons to be critical of wasting resources on Ukraine.

And no offense, you sound like some young recent college grad who thinks they have the world figured out judging by your recent posts. I know because I used to be like that too. You'll figure it out eventually, I hope.

You have a habit of going straight to passive aggressiveness and hostility when it's not needed from what I have seen and what others have said. Even when no hostility was thrown at you first. The college grad stuff and you saying how you used to be some character like that is a bit... random, to say the least.

If you can't talk about things without going straight to passive aggressiveness or just outright hostility, then that's no productive discussion but lashing out as a last resort.

I had less hostile discussions with some conservatives despite our opposite views on some things. We disagree and agree on how things should be done, but never going straight to useless antics like the college grad thing haha.

Passive aggressiveness and open hostility is a waste of time and I rather save time.

Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.

 

[Luman]

The US military-industrial complex has barely showed up for the Ukraine war. So far, most of the weapons — HIMARS, 155mm Howitzers, guns, ammunition, missiles, and equipment — have come directly from US inventory. US is now tapping into a weapons stockpile in Israel to be sent to Ukraine.

BTW, you're whining about US politics in a thread that shouldn't have it. Stick to the topic or go back to the US Presidential Election thread and complain there.

And no offense, you sound like some young recent college grad who thinks they have the world figured out judging by your recent posts. I know because I used to be like that too. You'll figure it out eventually, I hope.

Those weapons that we are sending, which are not new, will have to be replaced, at the taxpayers' expense, and we have already sent 100 billion to them. Worse, there are thousands of needless deaths, children who have lost, or will soon lose one, or both parents, and other tragedies. But it doesn't matter, as long as Trump didn't win, that is the consensus among most Democrats.

 

[Rockstar]

If China is going to help supply Russia with military supplies, this is going to be a disaster, a forever war. The US is giving way too much proportionally to Ukraine than the other NATO members. It should be America first, not America last. Just look at the border crisis and the incompetent fools in the White House saying the border is secure.

You're very correct friend; it would be a forever war in Ukraine or just a complete disaster like Afghanistan where Biden left them with top quality weapons.

To give an idea, I looked into the Korean war a while ago and what went on. China just dealt with WW2 and also finished having a civil war that ended in 1949. China was war torn and more poor than Africa.

During the Korean war at the beginning, North Korea almost took over 100% of the Korean peninsula, but then they got pushed back near the Chinese border when the US and the United Nations fully got into the war (dozens of countries, it was bigger than NATO).

Then China joined on the ground as they didn't want foreign military bases at their border and Russia mainly provided support with air strikes.

They were able to push towards of taking back control of half of the Korean peninsula, which is why the borders look like that.

That was when China was a war torn country, poorer than Africa. Today it's another beast whilst the US has declined.

If this happens, then this would surely be a forever war and if one side takes full control, then it's the side that has a country that's rapidly rising in power, not declining.

So let's focus on peace and stop with thirsting for war.

 

[dan]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if Ukraine attacks Crimea, and Russia cannot defeat them (push them back), Putin will use a tactical nuclear weapon on Ukraine.

Consequently USA will have to do good on its promise to demolish Russian forces outside of Russia proper.

=WW3

P.S. And we are worried about other stuff?

 

[Rockstar]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if Ukraine attacks Crimea, and Russia cannot defeat them (push them back), Putin will use a tactical nuclear weapon on Ukraine.

Consequently USA will have to do good on its promise to demolish Russian forces outside of Russia proper.

=WW3

P.S. And we are worried about other stuff?

Is anyone here willing to be conscripted over Ukraine? Are you willing to be happy to leave your friends and family behind? Would you accept one of your family members to be conscripted for war?

If you end up going to fight for Ukraine, then you will die for Ukraine.

This isn't heroic, this is nothing but insanity. I would like to know who actually wants this. The world would be polluted to hell if WW3 happens, and what's ironic is the president who bombs countries talks about saving the world from climate change.

 

[Rockstar]

Latin America has rejected NATO's pressure to send weapons to Ukraine.

Latin America refuses to send Ukraine weapons, despite Western pressure

"Trapped in $44 billion in debt with the U.S.-dominated International Monetary Fund (IMF), Fernández's government has boosted Argentina's ties with China and Russia, joining Beijing's Belt and Road Initiative.

Argentina applied to join the extended BRICS+ bloc. It attended the virtual BRICS summits in 2022, at China's invitation."

 

[ZFire]

Nice list of weapons. Housing for the homeless please; it's cheaper than $50 billion. As I have said "no excuses".

$50 billion? That low? There is more than enough money available if that's the case. Ukraine war is not preventing homelessness from being solved. Honestly you should be more upset with those COVID-19 business loans (PPP). Lots of fraudulent activity and money wasted there. But I'll leave it at that.

I am mentioning Ukraine and why it's a going to be another wasteful war that will ultimately fail just like the past ones. Next thing you know, they'll be more slums and civil unrest in America. There's reasons to be critical of wasting resources on Ukraine.

More whataboutism.

There's no excuse for the president to make a press conference about a balloon, then hop on a plane to Ukraine without spending 2 minutes going on camera raising awareness about Ohio's disaster. The same disaster that has now poisoned the river which people drink out of and is home to 1/10th of the US population. They arrested a journalist trying to investigate the truth on this.

How is any of this relevant to this thread? Stick to the topic.

I had less hostile discussions with some conservatives despite our opposite views on some things. We disagree and agree on how things should be done, but never going straight to useless antics like the college grad thing haha.

So I was right lol. Congrats on completing your studies btw.

Worse, there are thousands of needless deaths, children who have lost, or will soon lose one, or both parents, and other tragedies.

And whose fault is that? Lemme guess, US, and NATO. It's definitely not Russia's fault...

So let's focus on peace and stop with thirsting for war.

How would peace negotiations end with Russia though? Would Ukraine have to give up territory? The Ukrainians certainly don't want that and Russia needs to take something or else their act of aggression would have been for nothing.

It's obvious that no one should be making peace deals with Putin. It's pretty clear what his ambitions are as of now. The Kremlin wants to separates Eastern Ukraine from Western Ukraine and create a landbridge from Russia to Crimea which will be a major strategic, political and economic victory for them. From there, Russia can rebuild its forces again and renew its assault and grab more territory. A real peace is going to require change from within Russia first. We all want peace and no wars, but you need to be realistic about the geopolitical situation we're in.

PS. If my posts come across as passive aggressive, then I apologize. It's just the way I am. I get real passionate in these kind of threads and I admit I can get quite feisty in political arguments. I have no ill will against anyone though. Outside these threads, we chill.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if Ukraine attacks Crimea, and Russia cannot defeat them (push them back), Putin will use a tactical nuclear weapon on Ukraine.

Consequently USA will have to do good on its promise to demolish Russian forces outside of Russia proper.

=WW3

P.S. And we are worried about other stuff?

The potential for a Ukrainian offensive in Crimea will only happen once all their lands in the east (excluding Crimea) have been liberated first and foremost. I can see the West pushing Ukraine for peace talks by then. No one's going to risk nuclear war.

 

[Rockstar]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but if Ukraine attacks Crimea, and Russia cannot defeat them (push them back), Putin will use a tactical nuclear weapon on Ukraine.

Consequently USA will have to do good on its promise to demolish Russian forces outside of Russia proper.

=WW3

P.S. And we are worried about other stuff?

It was nice knowing you pal.



Prolonging bombings in Ukraine isn't exactly... environmentally friendly, but nuclear testing might make a comeback with this treaty now put out of use.

So much for saving the world from climate change.

 

[dan]

The potential for a Ukrainian offensive in Crimea will only happen once all their lands in the east (excluding Crimea) have been liberated first and foremost.

You must have gotten Zelensky's memo this morning... sorry I missed it.

 

[Lane]

Russia can rebuild its forces again and renew its assault and grab more territory. A real peace is going to require change from within Russia first. We all want peace and no wars, but you need to be realistic about the geopolitical situation we're in.

Hi @ZFire -- Thanks for so many of your points, most of which I feel are spot on. When I see your posts, I often feel sort of relieved to not have to take the time to make the very same points! I believe your above point is particularly important however, so I guess I'll chime in.

Some people seem to think that if only the warring parties (including the U.S. and NATO) would come to the negotiation table, things could be tidied up rather quickly. What they fail to realize is that not only is Russia currently a major danger to Ukraine and other "Bucharest 9" countries (former E. European countries that used to be part of the Warsaw Pact), but will continue to be a grave danger long after any truce between Ukraine and Russia ever materializes.

What all these countries have in common is they've been attacked, and/or subjugated and brutalized over centuries by the Russian Bear. I recently came across a comment by a Polish man who said something like, "When the Germans invaded us, they took our freedom. When the Russians invaded and occupied our country, they took our Soul". Which I think exemplifies the nature of Russia and its long, sordid past.

To believe that Russia will somehow changes its true colors if it is allowed to take over parts of Ukraine is wishful thinking at best. I believe there is truly a monumental geopolitical struggle going on at this time between freedom and subjugation (also referred to as democracy and autocracy). And the U.S. is (for better or worse) the indispensable nation with an ability to--at least somewhat--safeguard some of the "global bill of rights" that the world has taken for granted since the end of WWII.

I am thankful every day of watching this unfold that Biden is in the position he is, and taking the path of obstructing Russia as much as possible. I can't help but think his standing by Ukraine and making Russia incur severe losses is not being lost on China and influencing their determination to someday attempt to subjugate the people of Taiwan. I suspect they'll think twice if they think there's any chance they could incur losses as significant as Russia's in the war with Ukraine.

Some people (@Rockstar? ) apparently think Biden should be spending his time in Ohio instead of leading the free world at this critical juncture. It is dumbfounding to me that that's the case. I believe Presidents should focus on the big things, and let their various executive departments deal with things like train crashes and other disasters. And BTW, Trump and his administration apparently loosened and/or got rid of a lot of rail regulations back in 2017, and then bragged about doing so. Maybe we should keep public health regulations on the books!

 

[Rockstar]

You must have gotten Zelensky's memo this morning... sorry I missed it.

I don't get Neo-Cons and never did since Iraq and here's why.

If the US still dropped 2 nuclear bombs after Japan was flattened (search pictures of Tokyo 1945), then how would Russia be any more compassionate, especially if they lose Crimea? They turned their nukes on high alert specifically during the war ready to fire.

Unless you want to say Russia is so much more compassionate than the US?

Okay so on the one hand, they describe Russia as cartoon levels of evil that there's no point in having a ceasefire and negotiating a peace deal with them.

Then on the other hand, Russia is now fully capable of reasoning and mercy that they are convinced Russia won't use nukes after losing Crimea?

You know about Harm Reduction? This seems like the opposite!

Maybe they deep down subconsciously just want to own the Russians so much even if it takes nuclear holocaust in Ukraine? Soon nuclear bombs aren't going to hit their house.

I say this because Neo-Cons had the same bloodthirsty attitude on the Iraq and Afghanistan war who put more fuel on the fire.

Saying the "war on terror" would cause more terrorism would have gotten you called a terrorist supporter by Neo-Cons.

Turns out it was true as terrorism was especially ridiculous in Europe; how ironic. Worst part is, some still ended up asking for more bombs on the Middle East as payback. Then even more terrorist bombings happened in Europe.

The idea of it was hard to fathom when the "war on terror" was popular until it became extremely unpopular. Neo-Cons are a dying breed for a reason as not many wants to engage with them.

But hey, got to own the Muslim terrorists even if it causes more terrorist bombings in my local area. Now let's own the Russians.

That's what you call Harm Reduction, but on opposite day.

 

[Luman]

And whose fault is that? Lemme guess, US, and NATO. It's definitely not Russia's fault...

It is the fault of the United States for getting involved in this. It is not our business, if they want to fight a war that is unwinnable with or without our help.

We cannot continue to support the entire economy of Ukraine, with hundreds of billions of dollars, so that the military industrial complex can make a "killing" there, from our tax dollars.

Ukraine could have avoided all of this, by sitting down and negotiating a peaceful agreement with Russia.

Our money is paying for death and destruction, thanks to Biden and his string-pullers.

Even Progressives and Liberals are not saying anything against it, as they voted for Biden because they "didn't like Trump" and now won't criticize Biden for anything, even if he is flirting with World War III, or worse.