When to Run for the Hills in Noisy Environments?

[Flamingo1]

I just moved to a new city and am trying to get out and explore, and meet new people. Many of the venues I've been to for meetups or dinners have NOT been quiet. I think loud is the new now in the United States. Even "background" music in shopping malls is ridiculously loud. Many places I've been to have decibel levels peaking in the 70's or low 80's.

I have musician's earplugs that I always wear in those environments However, even with the 25 dB plugs, 72 dB still seems dangerously loud for someone with 2 year-old noise induced tinnitus.

I would like to know what others set their decibel threshold for leaving a noisy environment.

 

[Digital Doc]

I don't measure dB's to decide. If it is louder, or has potential to go louder, I wear my earplugs when out. I do not go to clubs or rock concerts.

There have been times I am not sure, and if in doubt I put in my musician plugs that are 18 dB. If it is quiet, I can always take them out. I carry them with me whenever out, and have had to put them in once, at Home Depot as there loudspeaker kept going off in the dept I was in, and it was distorted, and uncomfortably loud.

I do not get hung up on decibel readings to decide on protection.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I would like to know what others set their decibel threshold for leaving a noisy environment.

For me, it is anything that sounds/feels too loud - I don't care about dB level.

If you expose yourself to any noise louder than that, you are taking a risk that you will regret your actions. This risk might be small, but what is on the line is enormous. Think twice before you take your chances.

By the way, earplugs can provide a false sense of security. Avoidance doesn't.

 

[Julien87]

I would like to know what others set their decibel threshold for leaving a noisy environment.

If it's over 86-88 dB I leave if I can.

I have noise induced tinnitus since 2006. For about five or six years after the onset, I never used protection in - what you call - "noisy" environment of 70-80 dB. I simply avoided very noisy environments such as concerts and nightclubs. And it never affected my tinnitus.

After that period I became more careful (why? I am still wondering, I guess I started spending time on T forums at that time - I guess fear is contagious, whatever its level of rationality is) and started to use plugs in noisy environments such as subway, plane or loud bars (between 80 dB and 86 dB) just to be on the safe side. Still no impact on my tinnitus.

 

[Ed209]

I've had tinnitus since I was 18 and regrettably, I continued abusing my ears without earplugs in all the loudest environments you can think of for another 14 years. However, once you go down the rabbit hole of tinnitus forums it's very hard not to become paranoid and overzealous with your behaviour towards all sound. Psychologists know that we become an amalgamation of the people who are closest to us, so it's hard not to take on everybody else's anxiety if you are reading it every day. I certainly did, and I see posts all the time that show people are still going overboard with ear protection out of fear and paranoia. This is a learned behaviour and a toxic one that can lead to emotionally crippling consequences.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I've had tinnitus since I was 18 and regrettably, I continued abusing my ears without earplugs in all the loudest environments you can think of for another 14 years.

However, once you go down the rabbit hole of tinnitus forums it's very hard not to become paranoid and overzealous with your behaviour towards all sound.

You would have benefited from that when you were 18, right?!

people are still going overboard with ear protection out of fear and paranoia

LOL "Some people are still going overboard with fear of smocking and speeding. Imagine that!"

 

[Ed209]

You would have benefited from that when you were 18, right?!

LOL "Some people are still going overboard with fear of smocking and speeding. Imagine that!"

There's a significant difference between protecting your ears at a concert and losing your mind because somebody laughed, or a toilet seat dropped, or because of road noise that's miles away and is behind walls and glass.

There is a whole new world of misery that some are facing and I fear it's a substantial but hidden problem on tinnitus forums, and nobody is taking it seriously.

 

[Mario martz]

I guess that sometimes the anxiety and paranoia found in some forums can make things so much worse...

I've been having tinnitus since 2016. For the first year I was trying to avoid loud sounds at all costs which led to a very complicated life...

In 2017 I decided not to avoid certain sounds and also started to go out again to concerts, clubs, bars etc... wearing regular foam plugs... and since then I haven't had any sort of problem with my tinnitus.

But I wouldn't recommend people to do what I do.

For example last Friday I went to a super loud club from 11 pm to 6 am
I was wearing foam plugs all the time, and tbh I can't stand super loud sounds anymore...
Then again I guess it depends on what caused your tinnitus in the first place.
I have some sort of Meniere's disease without the vertigo... maybe that's why sounds doesn't spike my tinnitus.

My suggestion would be... carry your plugs everywhere you go, don't over protect too much and try to avoid anxiety.

 

[Mario martz]

There's a significant difference between protecting your ears at a concert and losing your mind because somebody laughed, or a toilet seat dropped, or because of road noise that's miles away and is behind walls and glass.

There is a whole new world of misery that some are facing and I fear it's a substantial but hidden problem on tinnitus forums, and nobody is taking it seriously.

This is super important.

For a year I believed the dryer/dropping things/or babies crying would make my tinnitus worse.

This led to a very miserable life, I was under a lot of anxiety all the time.

And in the end sounds didn't make my tinnitus worse.
I'm glad my therapist pushed me.

 

[Bill Bauer]

losing your mind because somebody laughed, or a toilet seat dropped, or because of road noise that's miles away and is behind walls and glass.

How about the sound of someone using a chainsaw down the street?

I had a head injury in 1992 that resulted in my tinnitus. ... After close to 2 1/2 years the tinnitus left. ...
About a year ago, while I was at home, someone down the street was using a chainsaw, and they used it all day and into the evening. Then I realized that the tinnitus came back, but I didn't mind because it was faint

 

[Bill Bauer]

You would have benefited from that when you were 18, right?!

@Ed209 may I ask you to answer the question above, please?

 

[Ed209]

How about the sound of someone using a chainsaw down the street?

I'm not going to lie, Bill, but I'll be civil: some of the advice you regularly give out really concerns me. I've spent a significant amount of time trying to help people who are severely phonophobic and you're contributing to their misery on a regular basis. Some are beyond help and it's so incredibly tragic that it kills me to know how badly they are suffering.

In answer to your question: what about a chainsaw down the street? You are messing with people's minds and it seems that nobody else can see this bar a few. Maybe it's because they aren't helping people every other day who can no longer function any more?

I get that in your mind you think you're helping people, but I can assure you that you're not. You take it way too far to the point of being neurotic about it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

some of the advice you regularly give out really concerns me.

Most of your advice concerns ME. My advice would have resulted in you getting over your tinnitus (or at least experiencing significant fading) at the age of 18. Enough said.

what about a chainsaw down the street?

It had resulted in that poster's T being resurrected after 14 years.

You are messing with people's minds

See, he had experienced that before I got tinnitus and began posting here. So his experiences had nothing to do with me.

I can assure you that you're not

That's not what their PMs say. Are you saying that they are suffering, but are lying to me in their PMs to me to make me feel good and to encourage me to continue with my advice?

It is late here. I am looking forward to continue our conversation tomorrow.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I have noise induced tinnitus since 2006. For about five or six years after the onset, I never used protection in - what you call - "noisy" environment of 70-80 dB. I simply avoided very noisy environments such as concerts and nightclubs. And it never affected my tinnitus.

One possibility is that your actions caused your tinnitus to not fade. Another possibility is:

It can get extremely bad. I went to clubs and concerts for four years after inital onset of mild T and H, and I was fine. I got some increased T before going to bed, but that was all.
Until one day, it wasn't.

Another possibility:

I didn't read all the above comments, but did peruse a fair amount of it, and ran across many good points on both sides of the argument. What strikes me is there seems to be an underlying assumption (of course I may be wrong on this) that all brains and neurological systems are created equal. The way I see it, that's simply not the case, so everybody's way of dealing with tinnitus and/or hyperacusis is going to have to be highly individualized.

I read a book many years ago called "Adrenal Syndrome". A lot of the book touched on the residual resiliency of people's adrenal glands as they respond to life's stresses. Very low resiliency often resulted in months/years of chronic debilitating exhaustion following a stressful event(s) in their lives. Very high resiliency indicated essentially the opposite. The author broke this down into some rough numbers:

25% of people have low resiliency, meaning normal life stressors will often send them into some degree of a tailspin.
25% of people have high resiliency, meaning that no matter how severe a stressor comes into their lives, they will be able to cope without becoming debilitated to any degree.
50% of people fall somewhere inbetween.

I believe there are some kind of corresponding numbers for a person's brain and neurological resiliency as well, which can greatly affect the ability to cope with tinnitus. (I believe adrenal resiliency also plays a major role in our ability to cope). -- Based on these assumptions, it's pretty easy for me to conclude that what may be overprotection for one person will be underprotection for another, and vice versa.

I think the main point to understand for someone new to tinnitus is that their path forward is going to be a lot of "testing the waters". Generally, IMHO, it's going to take a few weeks or months to get important insights that will help us achieve a healthy balance. In all likelihood, most people are going to learn from experience when their over-protecting or under-protecting.

I've come to believe however, that in those early months, if one is going to err in either direction, it should be toward overprotection. It just seems to me the consequences of underprotection (which could result in permanent injury) in those early times are much more dire than the consequences of overprotection--which as I understand, generally results in temporary setbacks.

Doing a number of things to better support the brain and neurological system and the body's stress response (adrenal glands) is quite high on my list of recommendations I would make to anybody with tinnitus. Doing so might even prevent phonophobia or OCD, etc., as we go through our learning curves -- Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Ed209]

Most of your advice concerns ME. My advice would have resulted in you getting over your tinnitus (or at least experiencing significant fading) at the age of 18. Enough said.

It had resulted in that poster's tinnitus being resurrected after 14 years.

See, he had experienced that before I got T and began posting here. So his experiences had nothing to do with me.

That's not what their PMs say. Are you saying that they are suffering, but are lying to me in their PMs to me to make me feel good and to encourage me to continue with my advice?

It is late here. I am looking forward to continue our conversation tomorrow.

Of course, they are suffering. It's like being stuck in hell! Imagine not being about to walk around your house without earplugs and muffs, and the torture of having to leave your house because it's a daily battlefield out there. What if someone talks to me? What if that gate shuts as I walk past it? What if that man drops his fork? Always on high alert looking for the next threat. That's no way to live and it's ruining people's lives.

Someone went to a health spa to try and get away to relax. He used earplugs but it was too loud, and he freaked out and had the biggest spike of his life. A fucking health spa! These spikes are a conditioned response that's the result of a learned fear reflex, and the gross overuse of earplugs and muffs plays a huge role as well.

I know how this continues as we've had this debate more times than I can remember, but let's just say I disagree and leave it there. I no longer have the energy required.

 

[Flamingo1]

I was exposed to a 75-80 decibels this weekend at a party while wearing 27dB musician's ear plugs, and the next day to some very loud music in a department store (??!) with no plugs. My bad ear now feels full but there has been no spike in my tinnitus.... yet. This has proven to me that my fear of noise is valid. Unfortunately, I live in a place that believes noise sells and the louder the better.

 

[Ed209]

I was exposed to a 75-80 decibels this weekend at a party while wearing 27dB musician's ear plugs, and the next day to some very loud music in a department store (??!) with no plugs. My bad ear now feels full but there has been no spike in my tinnitus.... yet. This has proven to me that my fear of noise is valid. Unfortunately, I live in a place that believes noise sells and the louder the better.

Didn't you watch the SpaceX launch? How were your ears after that as a rocket launch can be around 120 dBA from 4 miles away.

 

[Flamingo1]

Didn't you watch the SpaceX launch? How were your ears after that as a rocket launch can be around 120 dBA from 4 miles away.

Yes, but it definitely wasn't 120 dB where I was sitting. The sound was a very low-octave thunder rumble that lasted for maybe 30 seconds or so. I find that that my ears are more sensitive to the higher frequencies.

 

[Ed209]

Yes, but it definitely wasn't 120 dB where I was sitting. The sound was a very low-octave thunder rumble that lasted for maybe 30 seconds or so. I find that that my ears are more sensitive to the higher frequencies.

The maths would suggest otherwise, but as per your experience, rockets are mainly low to mid frequencies.

Here's a cheesy video I just found which explains it:

 

[Bill Bauer]

Imagine not being about to walk around your house without earplugs and muffs

What does this have to do with my advice?! I have never advocated anything like that.

let's just say I disagree and leave it there. I no longer have the energy required.

Neither do I.

I will say that I Had taken your points and posts into account. When I advise people to be easy on their ears, I try to also advise that they don't go overboard with this.

 

[Jack Straw]

One possibility is that your actions caused your tinnitus to not fade. Another possibility is:

Another possibility:

The scenarios you presented are vastly different. One person stopped going to clubs and concerts and didn't wear ear plugs in environments 70-80 dB which is perfectly safe even according to environmental safety standards which is more conservative than OSHA. The other kept going to clubs and concerts (significantly louder than 70-80 dB) and experienced worse tinnitus because of it.

I'm not even sure what point your trying to make here either.

We don't know whether his tinnitus would have gotten better if he wore protection in 70-80 dB environments, because no one does. No conclusion can be drawn that it would have since yet again it is an anecdotal report with no scientific evidence.

Also, 70 dB range is a safe noise environment. By protecting in these environments you will be lowering your sensitivity thresholds making these noise environments a problem due to over-protection.

 

[Sam Bridge]

If you hear this song you sure need to run forrrrrrr youuuurrr liiiiiifeeeee.

 

[sirhand]

Even just a typical busy restaurant ~75db is too loud for me. I don't think it causes permanent increase but definitely a spike that could last anywhere from 2 days to 2 weeks.

 

[Flamingo1]

For people with already damaged hearing like us, I don't believe the OSHA standard for safe noise levels applies. Before my T, 75 dB meant nothing to me. Now with T, I notice that being exposed to 75-80 dB environments has a significant effect on my ears. My bad ear still feels full from being in an environment of 70 to 75 dB of constant noise for ~2 hours this past weekend (2 days ago.) And I had ear plugs in!

I plan to go to an Urgent Care Center after work today to get some prednisone.

 

[Flamingo1]

Even just a typical busy restaurant ~75db is too loud for me. I don't think it causes permanent increase but definitely a spike that could last anywhere from 2 days to 2 weeks.

I think it can cause further damage Think about it. Our synapses and hair cells are already on the edge.

 

[Bam]

We don't know whether his tinnitus would have gotten better if he wore protection in 70-80 dB environments, because no one does.

I agree. I have no idea if my T would have improved by being ultra cautious around noise but the reality is I don't want to live like that. So I avoid really loud noise environments and wear fitted plugs on my motorbike etc but other than that I live as normally as I can and I accept the consequences of worsening.....Which I realise are certain death. And in that respect I agree with Bill.

That said with all the huge risks I've taken I've had no worsening and in fact after being in loud restaurants and bars my T is perceived as slightly lower in volume. I've also had two MRI's in less than a month and zero issues.

I suppose this shits in the face of tinnitus being an affliction of the anxious. I've always been a gambling zero anxiety risk taking thrill seeker so why the fuck did my brain produce this noise??

 

[david c]

I just moved to a new city and am trying to get out and explore, and meet new people. Many of the venues I've been to for meetups or dinners have NOT been quiet. I think loud is the new now in the United States. Even "background" music in shopping malls is ridiculously loud. Many places I've been to have decibel levels peaking in the 70's or low 80's.

I have musician's earplugs that I always wear in those environments However, even with the 25 dB plugs, 72 dB still seems dangerously loud for someone with 2 year-old noise induced tinnitus.

I would like to know what others set their decibel threshold for leaving a noisy environment.

I am much the same as you in that even wearing earplugs spending a longer period of time in an environment at 70db to 80dbs is likely to have only a negative affect on my tinnitus - I therefore avoid longer periods in shopping centres with noisy music - as well as in cinemas. I am normally fine in less noisy cafes and in concerts without amplified sound (i.e. classical or folk concerts). Careful management of noise has been one of the secrets to habituating to tinnitus for me.

 

[Jack Straw]

I agree. I have no idea if my T would have improved by being ultra cautious around noise but the reality is I don't want to live like that. So I avoid really loud noise environments and wear fitted plugs on my motorbike etc but other than that I live as normally as I can and I accept the consequences of worsening.....Which I realise are certain death. And in that respect I agree with Bill.

That said with all the huge risks I've taken I've had no worsening and in fact after being in loud restaurants and bars my T is perceived as slightly lower in volume. I've also had two MRI's in less than a month and zero issues.

I suppose this shits in the face of tinnitus being an affliction of the anxious. I've always been a gambling zero anxiety risk taking thrill seeker so why the fuck did my brain produce this noise??

Thanks for sharing this. Someone who has severe tinnitus hasn't exposed themselves to very loud environments with hearing protection and didn't receive any worsening of their tinnitus.

I hope Bill takes this into account with his anecdotal reports.

 

[Jack Straw]

For people with already damaged hearing like us, I don't believe the OSHA standard for safe noise levels applies. Before my T, 75 dB meant nothing to me. Now with T, I notice that being exposed to 75-80 dB environments has a significant effect on my ears. My bad ear still feels full from being in an environment of 70 to 75 dB of constant noise for ~2 hours this past weekend (2 days ago.) And I had ear plugs in!

I plan to go to an Urgent Care Center after work today to get some prednisone.

75 dB environment with ear plugs can not cause a spike! There must be something else going on here that you don't realize. If you had plugs that were 20 dB at least you would be in the 55 dB range.

 

[Bam]

I am much the same as you in that even wearing earplugs spending a longer period of time in an environment at 70db to 80dbs is likely to have only a negative affect on my tinnitus - I therefore avoid longer periods in shopping centres with noisy music - as well as in cinemas. I am normally fine in less noisy cafes and in concerts without amplified sound (i.e. classical or folk concerts). Careful management of noise has been one of the secrets to habituating to tinnitus for me.

I think this thread truly shows that although we're all dealing with bitch of a noise in our heads we all got it in different ways and are all thus affected by different things. Which only underlines how tricky it is to pin down in terms of causality and effectively treat......Tinnitus is a sneaky elusive little f***.