When to Run for the Hills in Noisy Environments?

Classical concerts are way louder than 70 dB. In fact, most acoustic concerts are going to be above 80 dB, but classical in particular is really loud. Classical musicians are statistically equal to rock musicians in terms of how many acquire tinnitus.

I’m glad you’ve habituated as nobody wants to see anybody suffer, but your understanding of sound is really flawed.

 

@Ed209 - I have a perfectly good understanding of sound and have plenty of classical concert going experience - none of which have ever made my tinnitus spike (though I do always wear earplugs). Of course some classical musicians do get tinnitus - they are playing within the orchestra in very close proximity to other instruments.

There is a fairly basic difference between that and sitting in the audience of a non-amplified concert and I would never normally sit in the first couple of rows of a concert anyway. There's a very obvious difference between that and the surround sound of a cinema for example.

However, given your comments on playing instruments maybe you would like to revise your advice to the Tinnitus Talk member who you told playing a piano was highly unlikely to be the cause of his tinnitus spike. I think it was very likely to be the cause and he was much more likely to know what was the cause than you were.

 

Man one thing I can 100% promise every single one of you is that I’m being totally honest about everything I post here. Jazzer knows me. I’m a straight talker and no bullshitter. Ya’ll know I’m really struggling with wanting to kill my self but I’m not anxious about noise and all that. I don’t want to live in fear. If it gets worse that’s a green light to chuck the towel in. I really do keep going for the sake of others, namely my loyal little dog, and a shred of hope that someone will help us all.

 

There’s no difference at all. Sound is sound and it’s just air molecules being excited and being spread via a pressure wave. The molecules don’t care if it’s a speaker pushing the air or an orchestra, so the fact that you go to classical concerts and think it’s fine, but believe going to the cinema - which will have a lower LAeq - doesn’t make any sense to me. Your post is full of cognitive dissonance.

Of course not because I still believe it to be true. An acoustic piano on its own being played normally is not loud enough to cause hearing damage. As I said before, normal playing is between 60 dB - 70 dB and fortissimo is around 80 dB. Allan clearly stated that he wasn’t playing like a mad man so I don’t see the problem. However, it’s easy for one to try and look for a cause related to a memory they associate blame to and this is a kind of cognitive bias. In fact, I believe many people on this site fall foul to the bandwagon effect bias.

 

I know - based on plenty of experience - that sitting far back in a classical concert with no-amplified sound wearing earplugs will be fine for my tinnitus - and sitting in a cinema with amplified surround sound I won't be But @Ed209 knows better what affects my tinnitus than I do - despite not citing any evidence for his claims.

Allan knew that playing a piano led to his tinnitus spike. But @Ed209 knows better what affects Allan's tinnitus than Allan does - despite not being there and not citing any evidence for his claims.

It all simply reinforces my point to tinnitus newbies. Follow your own judgement - based on your own experience -- about what affects your own tinnitus - it's much better than arrogant self-appointed "experts" - who usually aren't experts at all.

 

Why are you attacking me?

I’m just debating some points with you because I think your arguments are flawed.

 

Interesting discussion, I get a spike for a few days after any noisy environment ie gym, malls, cafe (around 75 dB) but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it's from the extreme anxiety I get from going to these places (stress=spike) I also monitor my tinnitus much more closely after. Basically I'm my own worst enemy.

I've spent months in very quiet places and still had huge spikes so idk... mine fucks with me no matter what I do.

 

Sorry to hear that, Holly. The ideal solution is that we find a treatment for it. Hope you’re well otherwise.

 

@Ed209 I'm not attacking you - I'm disagreeing with you. You have said that you know better than I do what affects my tinnitus and better than another forum member what affects their tinnitus. You have also cited no evidence at all for any of your claims. A seat near the back at the average classical concert is going to be quieter than a seat near the back of a surround sound cinema, where you will never be far away from a speaker. If you disagree with that statement then provide evidence that it's wrong.

 

Both Bam and I suffer like hell, and we recognised this in each other from the moment we met - which I will never forget.
Mutual respect for each other’s incredible courage, empathy and a ‘oneness’ that is impossible to describe.
It was a unique experience for me, and I wouldn’t have missed it for the world.

“Living for other people” is just about it.
In spite of our own severely compromised lives, we will go on doing our damnedest for the sake of those we love - both people and critters.
We are not on our own here.
There are many people like bam and I on this forum, I know that for sure.
I recognise who some of them are.
Love to everybody.
If only love made all the difference eh folks,

Dave x
Jazzer

 

There’s a New Zealand study which references their cinemas.

Here’s some excerpts:

The results of similar surveys carried out by Inhe et al [5], Fiumicelli [6] and Ferguson et al [7] measured LAeq values of 73dB - 85 dB. These values are consistent with the results of this project. Interestingly, none of the surveys measured any movie with an overall LAeq above 85 dB.

Conclusions

Despite claims in media reports, measured noise levels in 17 separate screenings show that even for the duration of the movie,

85 dBA Leq is not exceeded. As an 8-hour exposure, levels are less than 80 dBA LAeq. One event over 140 dB (peak) was recorded, with other results generally well below the threshold at which hearing damage is likely to occur.

In conclusion, it is considered that going to the cinema is unlikely to cause irreparable damage to hearing, nor is it likely to result in short term damage.

https://www.acoustics.org.nz/sites/www.acoustics.org.nz/files/journal/pdfs/Ellerton,_D_NZA2002.pdf

From my measurements, current UK standards are slightly lower than these, but even this study confirms what I already know.

This is also well worth reading as it covers the psychoacoustic side of human perception.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/film-mixing.com/2016/05/02/mixing-for-broadcast-loudness/amp/

Here’s an excerpt from a study on an orchestra:

An orchestra model in Odeon
A model of an orchestra was built in Odeon, tuned to match the Queensland data referred to above, with the purpose to study the foreground-background balance, FBB=FGL-BGL, as motivated for above.
The orchestra was divided into 4 sections, strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion, and a single string instrument musician. Each section and the single musician was modelled as surface sources having internal power balance equal to the one calculated from the average of equivalent a-weighted sound power levels, a total of 401 samples from the concert hall in QPAC. Calculated sound power levels per section, normalized to the total sound power of all sections, are presented in Table 2. The “High” and “Low” columns is shown in order to get an idea of how the internal power balance can be different in loud and quiet sessions respectively. The power balance of the sections in the model was tuned to be equal to the values in the “Average” column, namely the average of 401 equivalent levels in Queensland. Related to this normalization, the power level of the single string player is -21dB in the average case. At forte play, the total power level is calculated to be 8dB higher than at the average equivalent level, being 114dB and 106dBA, respectively. Note that brass is much more dominant at tutti forte than in average session periods. While strings, woodwind and percussion are 5dB more powerful than average session period, brass is 13dB more powerful at tutti forte. Forte power levels are from [1], with references to [25] and [27].
In relevance to dynamics, it is worth mentioning that LAeq levels in 60 second periods, near musicians ear, during rehearsal and concert session, varied with a standard deviation of s=7dB as a mean over different instruments [24]. Smallest variation was found in Oboe/French Horn section (s=5dB) and biggest variation in Horn section (s=9dB). During each 60-second period, standard deviation over the orchestra was as high as 7dB in some periods and as low as 3dB in some periods, with a mean value of 4dB. For more than 12% of these periods, the maximum difference between two instruments was 20dB or more.



http://www.akutek.info/Papers/MS_Orchestra_Musician.pdf

Citing studies in this way is largely pointless, though. There are too many variables at play.

 

And none of those "safety standards" are relevant for people with T. Those safety standards are for the healthy people. There haven't been any studies about what is and what is not safe for T sufferers.

My post is clear - please read it again.

This is the reason I had listed Possibilities.

There haven't been any studies about what is and what is not safe for tinnitus sufferers. So what you are saying above is wishful thinking.

This hasn't been my experience, and it hasn't been the experience of the many people who have been protecting their ears. And of course the best thing you can do is to NOT protect (earplugs often provide a false sense of security) but to LEAVE.

 

EXACTLY !!!

When cochleae are already severely damaged, and compromised, levels even lower than 85 dBs can be devestating.
What gives anybody the confidence to state things like this.
Where there is serious damage anything might happen.
I have sat in a cinema with my g’children and been in hell with it.
Trust your own judgement, your own discomfort, and your own natural anxiety level to tell you all you need to know.
If you sense it’s bad, then it is.

 

Just ignore the self righteous types and their passive aggressive "concern" about your behaviors. Certain types of people spend their entire lives thinking they know what's best for everyone else. I can honestly say that with my tinnitus there is sometimes no rhyme or reason to it. I've had significantly loud incidents cause no lasting damage. I've also had permanent and debilitating spikes from what others on the forum would consider to be trivial noise exposure. My most recent spike occurred because my neighbor WAS USING A CHAINSAW near my house. I've been struggling with increased tinnitus for the past 2 weeks because of it. I guess I'm just being paranoid.

 

I know!...

 

Absolutely @Jazzer - tinnitus sufferers are the best judge of which noise events are likely to impact negatively on their tinnitus and which aren't. Unfortunately in this thread we have a couple of people who take the attitude of they know best - they know better than the other tinnitus sufferer how noise will impact on that tinnitus sufferers tinnitus.

And in terms of the supposed "evidence" that @Ed209 provides. The orchestra study was only measuring sound levels within the orchestra - meaningless if you are an audience member. I've already pointed out that a classical orchestra musician is at risk of developing or worsening tinnitus as they are in extremely close proximity to the sound of other instruments. - that isn't the same for a concert member sitting far away from the sound source. The cinema study he cites is in NZ not the UK and simply talks about hearing loss being unlikely to occur. But on this thread we are talking about something completely different - impact on tinnitus of someone whose cochlear are already damaged, and compromised.

 

Those figures represent each section of the orchestra. Combined, they can achieve well in excess of 100 dBA for sustained periods of time. This is higher or at least equal to noise exposures you can expect at a cinema in the UK (from a distance). I have been to the symphony hall in Birmingham many times, and it’s louder than a cinema in my opinion, even when sitting on the balcony and this is partly due to the average intensity being sustained at higher levels (it’s music, whereas dialogue scenes in movies are around 65 dBA). As I said, you cannot just cite studies in these instances because of all the variables, but I have proven my point. I’m not sure how you can deflect it again? I have first-hand data for noise levels in cinemas across the UK and if you refuse to believe me, you can always take a decibel meter and check for yourself.

Here’s another excerpt:

The eardrums of trumpet players and flute players are the most burdened. During loud passages they are subjected to average decibel levels of 95 to 100 dB(A), just from their own instruments. The violin and viola produce decibel levels in excess of 90 dB(A) for their players. These levels are similar to those of a rock concert. They also well exceed the 85 dB(A) limit that European regulations stipulate for the compulsory wearing of ear protection on the work floor.

Acoustics expert and researcher Remy Wenmaekers got these results using a calculation model he developed to work out the level of soundclose to the ears of musicians. Wenmaekers chose to use a calculation model rather than measurements on the spot where musicians play their instruments. The reason is musicians never reproduce exactly the same level of sound, which makes comparison of experiments with 'real' musicians virtually impossible.

As a foundation for his model he used recordings of orchestra music per instrument made in an anechoic chamber (a room without an echo). The model takes account of the direction of the sound of the instruments, the listening orientation of the receivers, reflection of sound, and blocking by people (the musicians themselves). He compared the results of his model with measurements in a real orchestra and there appeared to be a good correspondence.

This video shows the sound levels at the ears of musicians as calculated by Wenmaekers' model, for the first two minutes of Mahler first symphony (4th movement). It clearly shows sound levels exceeding 100 dB(A) repeatedly.

This data was published in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.

https://m.phys.org/news/2017-11-earplugs-unavoidable-musicians-orchestra-home.html

As far as I know, the studios calibrate the sound as the director intends it to be, meaning cinemas are all the same unless you enter a rogue one that pushes the fader beyond the calibration line. The LAeq is low. In fact, it’s likely lower than walking around a city for the day, and it’s highly unlikely one will damage their ears, and this is especially true if one is wearing earplugs. This debate began when you were telling people to worry about bone conduction at movies whilst using earplugs and this is the only point I’m disputing. What about bone conduction at a classical music concert? The most important figure is probably the LAeq as it factors time into the equation.

I always try to be civil but with the amount of abuse I get I may occasionally bite back. However, I find it ironic that you reference me with derogatory terms like, “it's much better than arrogant self-appointed "experts" - who usually aren't experts at all”, whilst simultaneously accusing me of attacking you. These things don’t bother me at all but the irony astounds me.

I am a trained sound engineer and have set up big rigs in many large town halls and other facilities, so I am somewhat of an expert when it comes to sound.

It’s obvious that you just don’t like me as I could provide evidence from God himself and you would still say it’s not enough. I hang around here to try and help others and to correct misinformation if I see any. I have no agenda against you or anyone else, and I’m certainly not here just to argue with people. This site is getting really tiresome.

 

I prefer to stay in the hills, so to speak. I choose nature. It's quieter and healthier. Too many noisy morons around for my liking in urban areas and I don't want to walk around wearing ear pro if I can help it.

Loud, damaging noise is the one social issue they're not fking ranting on enough about these days. Noise pollution kind of is a silent killer really and it's only once you get T etc., that you realise it's everywhere.

If I must venture to the city or a mall, being selective about where I go, at what time of day and for how long is important. I will generally only when it is quiet enough to not require ear pro, although I always carry it. I have had too many set backs and problems when I had a more laissez faire attitude, like some people here have.

If the volume makes me uneasy, I leave. I don't bother about dBs anymore, but I can tell you it would be well under 80 to make me leave. I'm not going to stay in some noisy place with earplugs on and still feel uncomfortable, why should I? I'll just go and do something else away from the herds that requires no ear pro. But then again, I don't need much socialising. Others do.

 

@Ed209. You can go on citing from the same study about orchestras as much as you like but as the only thing it proves is that the players in the orchestra in very close proximity to the sound of their own instrument and the other players are at risk of very high sound exposure it proves nothing about an audience member sitting a long way away from the sound source. In a cinema wherever you sit you are in close proximity to a speaker and are exposed to sound levels at a constant of at least 70 dB and often at 80 or 90 dB. In contrast in a classical concert louder passages are going to be offset by long quieter passages in most pieces of music.

 

I can state for a fact that, as a tinnitus sufferer, my ears cannot withstand normal healthy sound levels. I exposed myself to two hours of 70-80dB of a live band playing in an enclosed space (it was a social club gathering, not a night club), punctuated the next day by exposure to god-awful, loud music in a department store of all places
for maybe 5 minutes. I was wearing 25 dB musician's ear plugs at the gathering only. I'll be conservative and say the plugs only reduced sound by 15 dB which still puts me well under the 80 dB threshold while the band was playing. My left (bad) ear is completely full today. My good ear is fine! Last night I went to a clinic and got a regimine of prednisone which I started taking last night. Thankfully, my tinnitus is only mildly louder so far.

I tried to have what some would call a normal weekend. It failed.

 

Would you say the music in the store was louder than the music of the live band? I'm glad we don't have many of stores like that here..

 

I really don’t want to go back and forth over the same thing because it’s not my thread, but an orchestra can reach the same levels as a rock band at the source. So are you saying it’s fine to go and see a rock band as well, as long as you stand at the back? There are variables with all music events, but non-IMAX cinemas are pretty much calibrated to be the same experience.

Movies spend a large percentage of time in the 60 dB range at audience level, and will have momentary peaks mainly in the 70 dB range during more dramatic scenes, and depending on the movie, can spike up to around 85 dB during action sequences. A classical concert is more likely to be louder and more sustained than this at audience level, but there are caveats as I said in my other post. There are many variables to consider, but most concert halls have extremely reflective, acoustically treated walls and vaulted ceilings which amplify the sound. This also provides a lot of reverb. There will be a much broader spectrum of sounds with classical concerts because every venue will be totally unique. A number can’t be quantified without prior knowledge of the venue or where one is sitting.

I just found it odd and very selective of you to say that going to the cinema is dangerous with earplugs - because of bone conduction - and to then say that you go to classical concerts. I thought there was some cognitive dissonance in your assertions.

Anyway, I know people must be sick of this back and forth clogging up the thread.

 

Almost. But I think what made it worse was that the music in the store was coming out of a not very good, tinny speaker system maxed out. This was in a section of Bloomingdale's where the music is usually barely noticeable. I complained to the sales clerk and she said she knows and had told her managers that can't even talk to her customers because of how loud the music is!

Of course management did nothing.

 

@Ed209 - your refusal to accept that other people are the best judge of what noise environments are likely to worsen their own tinnitus is trying indeed but I'm afraid it just comes from a very arrogant mindset. I have had plenty of experience of going to classical concerts wearing earplugs and sitting near the back and I've always been fine - in amplified surround-sound cinemas I haven't been. But I'm not arrogant enough to insist that my experience will apply to everyone else with tinnitus - that's your prerogative Ed.

 

Everyone has a right to an opinion, so I respect yours.

I choose to avoid loud situations if possible, and protect my ears when I must. Everyone's tinnitus is different, and because my tinnitus was from acoustic trauma, I protect my ears. If mine was from medication, I suspect protecting them from loud sound would not be as critical.

The OP said the new norm is loud, and I agree. I actually left the mall yesterday after a couple minutes, because the piped in music was like a rock concert, and I didn't feel like letting "them" expose me to unwanted loud music. I am totally fine with not going to loud places, I never liked loud music to begin with.

I think part of the problem is the younger generation grew up with constant music pumped into their brain though headphones, so now they think everyone likes non stop music and noise.

I like good old fashion peace and quiet.

 

I haven’t said that. I said it was wrong to tell people that bone conduction will be a problem at the cinema, when it isn’t, that’s it. You brought it to this thread, not me. There’s enough anxiety on here already without you telling people things that simply aren’t true.

I have always respected everyone’s right to do as they please, but there must also be some rationality added in for the benefit of everybody who may be reading. You still don’t understand the paradox of your own statement and it has nothing to do with arrogance. I’m not telling people to do one thing or another, but let’s not let facts get in the way of sensible debate. Let’s all just add to each other’s anxiety instead.

 

What you and some people don’t understand is that some people, especially people on this forum, suffer from anxiety related issues. These anxiety disorders can affect our judgement and make some think irrationally. This hinders their ability to properly access situations regarding sound because the anxiety of it getting worse can make them feel uncomfortable more than the sound, BUT they don’t realize his. This leads people to developing bad habits regarding this tinnitus.

How do I know? Because was one of those people who let the anxiety around it dig into me. It wasn’t until I stopped listening to the fear mongering that is present on this forum that started to get better mentally as well as my tinnitus. I started to stop over protecting and I realized that some of the advice on here is unscientific bullshit. Overprotecting was making me worse and it wasn’t as extreme as some people on here.

My point saying this is that at one time I felt that my body was telling me certain sounds were uncomfortable and “dangerous” when in fact they were not dangerous or uncomfortable at all. It was my anxiety regarding them that made it so. A significant amount of people on here show signs of classic anxiety disorders, which is understandable because tinnitus can do that. Some people let this anxiety consume them and makes them think and feel irrationally. A lot of people are so deep in the rabbit hole they don’t realize this and live in constant “dangerous” sound. So listening to ones body is bullshit when some people suffer from anxiety because the anxiety can make you think irrationally. Also listening to ones body is bullshit because when you went to loud damaging venues when you had healthy ears you didn’t get an “uncomfortable” feeling, it just was loud. It is now uncomfortable with tinnitus because it is loud. All loud sounds are uncomfortable to people with tinnitus because they are loud and we think they can make tinnitus worse. Does feeling uncomfortable make them dangerous? NO! The Decibel level makes them dangerous.

Also, anxiety plays a HUGE roll in how we perceive tinnitus, which could be causing a lot of the “spikes” we see on here. So when people say things like, “I dropped a spoon and it made a loud noise and now I am spiking.” We don’t know if it was the sound of the anxiety surrounding it. How don’t we know? Because it is anecdotal and we don’t have a control to compare it to.

People don’t take the anxiety aspect of spikes seriously at all which leaves us with random experiences causing spike. A perfect example is @Flamingo1 going to a rocket launch being excited and happy and not having an issue. A ROCKET LAUNCH... (120 dB) which had a low rumble aka lower frequencies. FYI low frequencies are harder to protect against with hearing protection. That’s why good hearing protection fine print will state that it has less protection at lower frequencies and that should be taken into account while wearing it. Now compare to this recent experience at 75 dB for 2 hours with 20+ NRR plugs within a frequency range the plugs should offer better protection to and that caused a spike? How do we know it wasn’t a delayed reaction from the rocket launch? How do we know there aren’t other factors besides the 75 dB? We don't, which again shows that this anecdotal report is flawed.

Also, if 75 dB is dangerous without ear plugs, you wouldn’t be able to drive a car or take a shower. This is not the case with the majority of people with tinnitus. I understand everyone is different but you guys keep throwing around 70 environments are dangerous for tinnitus ears. This is again bullshit because I know MANY people with tinnitus who can take showers and drive their cars without it affecting their tinnitus.

I am so sick of the misinformation opinions on here that are talked about like facts. I am actually so sick of it that I will be asking researchers and experts in the field of tinnitus in my interviews these types of recurring questions we see on here to put these to bed once and for all. If you seriously think that anecdotal reports are worth more than the opinions of cutting edge tinnitus researchers who research this stuff for a living, your literally insane and equivalent to a flat earther or antivaxxer in my mind.

 

Acoustic instruments and electronic instruments, regardless of how the volume reads - ARE NOT the same thing. It's mainly because of processing, artifacts, and whether or not the system is properly mixed (it may be redlining)

A redlined system at 100 dB is worse than a clean 105 dB mix.

BUT - I am still with Ed. Everyone here is a bit too anxious about sound and it spreads a groupthink of paranoia.

 

And another thing, Rauschecker even states himself (A LEADING RESEARCHER IN THE FIELD OF TINNITUS) that tinnitus can happen if the following occur.

Loud Noise Exposure
Stress

He goes on to discuss how tinnitus is more likely to occur after a loud noise exposure if stress is also involved. In the interview with him, he even talks about how they are researching the effect of glutamate (stress hormone in the brain) and oxidative stress it has on the brain / auditory pathway.

So anxiety about a noise event can most likely increase the chance of a spike due to perception or actual damage. Yet again pointing to anxiety and stress playing a huge roll in spikes.

 

I'm just going to have to disagree profoundly with comments such as "listening to your body is bullshit" - the greatest damage likely to happen to your ears isn't from a passing feeling of anxiety but permanent damage due to long-duration exposure to loud noise. The most sensible decision anyone who finds that their tinnitus is aggravated or worsened by spending time at rock concerts, extremely noisy shopping malls with piped music, cinemas etc is to minimise as far as possible the amount of time they spend at those places.

I make no apology at all for making that point and incidentally in terms of the cinema db level we are talking of noise levels of up to 95 or 100 dbs - not the 75db which you keep repeating.