2020 US Presidential Election

[Luman]

For someone who is Christian and conservative (based on American standards) it is difficult to feel at home in Europe. I know from personal experience, as I lived in Brussels for 14 months.

My Walloon protestant ancestors left Belgium when it was called the "Spanish Netherlands" in 1624, on the first Dutch settlement ship to bring people to New Netherlands, which became New York when the British gained control. I didn't know anything about this growing up, only in recent years with the digitalization of European baptism records has this ancestry come to light.

 

[OnceUponaTime]

To me this is very simple: the responsibility for what takes place in the US lies on the current US president, not on anyone else. He is running the country, and whatever happens is his full responsibility.

You do know that each state its governed by itself, right?
Like I said before, every single government leader is responsible.

Here's a few points:

The Predictable Pandemic: Whose Risk, Whose Responsibility?

Insert from above link.
A particularly contentious issue has been the lack of intensive care unit (ICU) ventilators available for hospitals. Governors, mayors and other locally elected officials have criticized the Federal government for not having enough ventilators in the Strategic National Stockpile to support the COVID-19 patients in their states' hospital ICUs. However, the potential lack of ventilators in the event of a national pandemic was fully understood by state health preparedness officials prior to the pandemic.

For instance, in November 2015, New York State Commissioner of Health released its updated ventilator allocation guidelines [PDF] originally released in 2007 which "develop guidance on how to ethically allocate limited resources (i.e., ventilators) during a severe influenza pandemic while saving the most lives." The guidelines explicitly make it clear that in a severe pandemic, "many more patients will require the use of ventilators than can be accommodated with current supplies." The guidelines further state that even if New York were to purchase the "vast number" of ventilators needed, a "sufficient number of trained staff would not be available to operate them."

In the introduction to the guidelines, the Commissioner with obvious pride notes, "The first Guidelines were widely cited and followed by other states. We expect these revised Guidelines to have a similar effect." Other states who don't use New York's guidelines have similar ones of their own.

Given this widespread acknowledgement and acceptance that ICU ventilators and trained personnel would be in short supply in a severe pandemic, state politicians' feigned surprise and anger over shortages are mere deflections for their own failure to have a robust public discussion about their government's role, and capability, to manage their state's citizens' risk in a pandemic before it occurred. If New York State residents knew, for example, that its public officials were not going to purchase adequate number of ventilators in case of a pandemic, would they have objected and insisted that they should be? Unfortunately, they never were asked.

Even all of us have a responsibility.

"But this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, if you had as a worker knowing you didn't have enough money saved up and now you're standing in a food line because of the ineptitude of a administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the American people." Kamala Harris

Well:
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has repeatedly published and widely advertised preparedness guidelines [PDF] for the American people to follow in the case of a severe pandemic. The guidelines recommend that households buy and store two-weeks' supplies [PDF] of food, water, medicine, face masks and other essentials. Yet, how many families followed these recommendations?

 

[Zugzug]

- the 'sue' culture does not exist in the UK

Sue culture gets in the way of compassionate use in medicine, all of the red tape. Obviously, there's a time and place for lawsuits. We've gotten to a point where I think if you mention a lawsuit, the first thing most Americans think of is someone looking for something and some lawyer lining their pocket. Meanwhile, there are lawyers doing really important work like catching sexual predators, but we rarely think of them.

 

[Lilah]

Maybe so, but I'm specifically talking about the UK and in particular England. Believe me, Europe is not a homogeneous entity. There is a marked difference between nations. In fact, I never say I am from Europe. For me, Europe is 'that place over the water', but I know full well that the UK is a part of the continent of Europe.

You are correct, I should have limited my response to Belgium, though I believe I can also extend my response to other countries in Western Europe. It would been nearly impossible to find a true friend or compatible spouse there...needle in a haystack. Everyone I encountered, which also included people from other countries, were non-religious (except for the Muslims) and socialists who approved of Marxism. The non-religious are also anti-Christian.

 

[Luman]

The Taliban just endorsed Trump for President.

Can you even imagine the uproar if they endorsed Obama whether he accepted the endorsement or not?

They would not have been able to endorse Obama since their former ally Bin Laden was tracked down and killed during his presidency. Trump opposed the Ground Zero Mosque in NYC, years ago, but they they probably aren't concerned with that.

 

[just1morething]

The Taliban just endorsed Trump for President.

Can you even imagine the uproar if they endorsed Obama whether he accepted the endorsement or not?

I can't find anything about The Taliban endorsing Obama. I did find that Planned Parenthood endorsed Obama in the past though. Kamala (Antichrist) Harris is probably worse though.

The Taliban wants the US troops to leave is all. It is more likely with Trump as President.
Trump campaign strongly declines Taliban endorsement reelection.

 

[all to gain]

You are correct, I should have limited my response to Belgium, though I believe I can also extend my response to other countries in Western Europe. It would been nearly impossible to find a true friend or compatible spouse there...needle in a haystack. Everyone I encountered, which also included people from other countries, were non-religious (except for the Muslims) and socialists who approved of Marxism. The non-religious are also anti-Christian.

There are still many conservative people in the UK, particularly in England. I can't speak for other countries in Europe though. I've have personally never met anyone who is anti-Christian here, but, yes, there are plenty of non-religious people. Plenty of champagne socialists, too.

It depends where you go in the UK and where you go in the constituent countries. Rural areas are naturally more conservative in general and city areas left leaning.

 

[all to gain]

You do know that each state its governed by itself, right?
Like I said before, every single government leader is responsible.

I was wondering about this the other day. I realise the federal response could have been better, but I don't see many states blaming themselves for their lack of response. It's all Trump's fault, which is politically convenient. He has been pretty damn dismissive of the virus in some/many ways though, eg in regard to social distancing and mask wearing and so on. All said though, I don't know how people can't blame China for misleading the World, and no way are its figures reflective of the true situation in China. Its been holding back on information for sure. Shouldn't it be paying for this big time?

 

[Juan]

You do know that each state its governed by itself, right?
Like I said before, every single government leader is responsible.

Here's a few points:

The Predictable Pandemic: Whose Risk, Whose Responsibility?

Insert from above link.
A particularly contentious issue has been the lack of intensive care unit (ICU) ventilators available for hospitals. Governors, mayors and other locally elected officials have criticized the Federal government for not having enough ventilators in the Strategic National Stockpile to support the COVID-19 patients in their states' hospital ICUs. However, the potential lack of ventilators in the event of a national pandemic was fully understood by state health preparedness officials prior to the pandemic.

For instance, in November 2015, New York State Commissioner of Health released its updated ventilator allocation guidelines [PDF] originally released in 2007 which "develop guidance on how to ethically allocate limited resources (i.e., ventilators) during a severe influenza pandemic while saving the most lives." The guidelines explicitly make it clear that in a severe pandemic, "many more patients will require the use of ventilators than can be accommodated with current supplies." The guidelines further state that even if New York were to purchase the "vast number" of ventilators needed, a "sufficient number of trained staff would not be available to operate them."

In the introduction to the guidelines, the Commissioner with obvious pride notes, "The first Guidelines were widely cited and followed by other states. We expect these revised Guidelines to have a similar effect." Other states who don't use New York's guidelines have similar ones of their own.

Given this widespread acknowledgement and acceptance that ICU ventilators and trained personnel would be in short supply in a severe pandemic, state politicians' feigned surprise and anger over shortages are mere deflections for their own failure to have a robust public discussion about their government's role, and capability, to manage their state's citizens' risk in a pandemic before it occurred. If New York State residents knew, for example, that its public officials were not going to purchase adequate number of ventilators in case of a pandemic, would they have objected and insisted that they should be? Unfortunately, they never were asked.

Even all of us have a responsibility.

"But this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, if you had as a worker knowing you didn't have enough money saved up and now you're standing in a food line because of the ineptitude of a administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the American people." Kamala Harris

Well:
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has repeatedly published and widely advertised preparedness guidelines [PDF] for the American people to follow in the case of a severe pandemic. The guidelines recommend that households buy and store two-weeks' supplies [PDF] of food, water, medicine, face masks and other essentials. Yet, how many families followed these recommendations?

I think this is just a clever way the US President uses to shake off his personal responsibility, and his inability to deal with the pandemic, which has caused over 210.000 deaths in the US.

The President of a country has full power to enforce measures to contain an emergency situation. All countries have provisions for this in the legal framework, constitution and other laws.

But Donald Trump chose not to do anything. It was his choice and now he cannot pretend that the outcome is someone else's responsibility.

 

[Juan]

'To be near Trump is toxic': Covid-19, chaos and the election

The president's coronavirus diagnosis has upended a campaign in which he was already well behind Joe Biden

 

[FGG]

I can't find anything about The Taliban endorsing Obama. I did find that Planned Parenthood endorsed Obama in the past though. Kamala (Antichrist) Harris is probably worse though.

The Taliban wants the US troops to leave is all. It is more likely with Trump as President.
Trump campaign strongly declines Taliban endorsement reelection.

I'm aware he didn't accept the endorsement or the KKK one but just pointing out how different the coverage would be.

 

[Zugzug]

I'm aware he didn't accept the endorsement or the KKK one but just pointing out how different the coverage would be.

The Taliban endorsing Trump sounds a bit like Richard Spencer endorsing Biden -- not a true endorsement, but with some other 4 dimensional chess motive.

 

[FGG]

The Taliban endorsing Trump sounds a bit like Richard Spencer endorsing Biden -- not a true endorsement, but with some other 4 dimensional chess motive.

The Taliban's reason is that Trump will withdrawal and allow the Taliban to govern Afghanistan again. I think that's plausible. Bin Laden's niece endorsed Trump for the same reason.

I agree with pulling out of Afghanistan for the record, just pointing out how much different the conversation would be if the President people screamed was a "secret Muslim terrorist who was secretly not born in the US" was similarly endorsed.

 

[PeteJ]

It certainly would be a massive task to get rid of all guns, but got to start somewhere. It's changing the mentality that's the main thing, but it could take generations to achieve.

But what's the alternative? Some countries have quite a lot of guns, like Switzerland, but don't have the problems the US does. It's mentality first and foremost.

Or demographics, partly.

 

[PeteJ]

For someone who is Christian and conservative (based on American standards) it is difficult to feel at home in Europe. I know from personal experience, as I lived in Brussels for 14 months.

You were in the wrong area. You should have gone to Poland.

 

[PeteJ]

You are correct, I should have limited my response to Belgium, though I believe I can also extend my response to other countries in Western Europe. It would been nearly impossible to find a true friend or compatible spouse there...needle in a haystack. Everyone I encountered, which also included people from other countries, were non-religious (except for the Muslims) and socialists who approved of Marxism. The non-religious are also anti-Christian.

There must be some Christians in Western Europe? Even here in Canada, there are a number of churches of various Christian denominations.

Although, I would recommend Poland for more Conservative/Christian communities although one would rightly point out that's Eastern Europe.

 

[Luman]

I think this is just a clever way the US President uses to shake off his personal responsibility, and his inability to deal with the pandemic, which has caused over 210.000 deaths in the US.

The President of a country has full power to enforce measures to contain an emergency situation. All countries have provisions for this in the legal framework, constitution and other laws.

But Donald Trump chose not to do anything. It was his choice and now he cannot pretend that the outcome is someone else's responsibility.

Let me get this straight: Trump is responsible for 210,000 deaths. None of them should have died, and a leader with the ability to deal with this pandemic would have prevented their deaths, through governmental actions which all countries have the ability to do. Is this correct?

 

[PeteJ]

I think this is just a clever way the US President uses to shake off his personal responsibility, and his inability to deal with the pandemic, which has caused over 210.000 deaths in the US.

The President of a country has full power to enforce measures to contain an emergency situation. All countries have provisions for this in the legal framework, constitution and other laws.

But Donald Trump chose not to do anything. It was his choice and now he cannot pretend that the outcome is someone else's responsibility.

How should he deal with the Plandemic?

You liberals still have not suggested or advised what he should do or what should be done?

You want everything closed, curfews and jail time for not wearing masks? What? I think it's pretty certain that whatever you recommend or demand (probably some mandatory course of action must follow or jail time - since liberals always need or demand a draconian punishment if regulations are not followed) would result in a recession and eventually an economic collapse.

 

[Juan]

Let me get this straight: Trump is responsible for 210,000 deaths. None of them should have died, and a leader with the ability to deal with this pandemic would have prevented their deaths, through governmental actions which all countries have the ability to do. Is this correct?

Trump did not take prompt action to combat the coronavirus. He did not take any measures until it was too late. Other countries were implementing lockdown measures, restricting movements, recommending social distance etc...

At that point Trump was suggesting to inject disinfectant and saying that "coronavirus will disappear just like that, like a miracle", which was really irresponsible and aggravated the problem.

 

[all to gain]

There must be some Christians in Western Europe? Even here in Canada, there are a number of churches of various Christian denominations.

Although, I would recommend Poland for more Conservative/Christian communities although one would rightly point out that's Eastern Europe.

Ireland.

Greece and Italy are religious, but not really considered Western Europe.

There are plenty of Christians in Western Europe, but the figures seem to be dwindling year by year.

 

[Zugzug]

Let me get this straight: Trump is responsible for 210,000 deaths. None of them should have died, and a leader with the ability to deal with this pandemic would have prevented their deaths, through governmental actions which all countries have the ability to do. Is this correct?

It's, of course, not true that Trump is responsible for all 210,000 deaths. However, isn't it fair to say that Trump supporters give Trump credit for absolutely everything? How often do you hear Trump, or his supporters, praise Obama's boost of the economy? Another more direct example is the COVID-19 vaccine that's coming. Are we going to see Trump supporters pointing out that any presidency would have led to the vaccine and that Trump deserves no credit? Nope. The way it works is that Trump gets all of the credit and none of the blame.

I will gladly take some of the blame off of Trump, in exchange for his supporters being non-sycophantic and just admitting that a lot of his successes would have happened with someone else.

 

[Luman]

It's, of course, not true that Trump is responsible for all 210,000 deaths. However, isn't it fair to say that Trump supporters give Trump credit for absolutely everything? How often do you hear Trump, or his supporters, praise Obama's boost of the economy? Another more direct example is the COVID-19 vaccine that's coming. Are we going to see Trump supporters pointing out that any presidency would have led to the vaccine and that Trump deserves no credit? Nope. The way it works is that Trump gets all of the credit and none of the blame.

I will gladly take some of the blame off of Trump, in exchange for his supporters being non-sycophantic and just admitting that a lot of his successes would have happened with someone else.

You are diverting the question that I had. It is very common for anti-Trump messages to blame Trump for 210,000 Covid deaths. Nobody ever challenges this, in fact the smuggest liberal, intellectualist assholes on the planet simply ignore the idiocy of this idea, and accept stupidity and slander as part of the game of destroying Trump, rather than find a candidate who can appeal to Trump supporters. I hope that Trump wins again, but even if he doesn't, it's been a great four years, other than for the pandemic. He's funny as hell, and if the world is laughing, that's fine - there's enough to be depressed about, yet Trump is fair game to be blamed for anything and everything.

Trump haters have played right into his hands, by stereotyping his voters as ignorant, knuckle-dragging, inbred, racist morons. Good luck with Biden in this election. Even if he wins, Trump has triumphed. Others will take his place, to represent those that the Democrats despise, due to prejudice and elitism. I think he did a great job. Although I didn't' vote for him in 2016, I will do so next month.

 

[Lilah]

There must be some Christians in Western Europe? Even here in Canada, there are a number of churches of various Christian denominations.

Yes, there are some churches with very small congregations in Brussels, so it is safe to say that there are very few Christians in Brussels/Belgium. (In the D.C. area in the U.S., which is a very liberal place, there are a lot of churches and even large megachurches just outside the city; plus there are also a lot of ongoing "church plants" here. To be fair, a lot of people in D.C. are transplants from other cities.) Christianity is definitely on the decline there, and may have even reached rock bottom. I don't think people realize that Belgium/Western Europe is not going to be truly secular, because Islam is increasing there.

 

[Zugzug]

Let me get this straight: Trump is responsible for 210,000 deaths. None of them should have died, and a leader with the ability to deal with this pandemic would have prevented their deaths, through governmental actions which all countries have the ability to do. Is this correct?

It's, of course, not true that Trump is responsible for all 210,000 deaths.

You are diverting the question that I had.

I'm confused. After answering your question, I then asked you some questions about giving others credit for some of his successes. You then praised him instead of answering these questions. True or false: A Democratic president would have pushed out a high-quality vaccine under a similar timeline. True or false: The economy, by the metrics being used, would have been good under Hillary Clinton after taking over for Obama?

My point is not even for Trump supporters to admit that a Democrat would be better. I realize they think there's something special about the Trump economy, and in particular, the tax cut. Even if one believes this, it's certainly more than fair to look at the economic trends under Obama and conclude that Trump is not the sole reason for the continued trends. No?

I bring this up because I recall during Trump's 2018 State of the Union, Trump bragged about the lowering of the black unemployment rate, but he doesn't even mention the 8 years of Obama. I actually know Trump supporters who criticized the Congressional Black Caucus for being ungrateful.

See, if this is the mentality that he and supporters want, they can't be surprised when he also gets all of the blame.

I guarantee you if Trump gave more credit to others, he would receive less criticism for dealing with a pandemic.

 

[Lilah]

Ireland.

Greece and Italy are religious, but not really considered Western Europe.

There are plenty of Christians in Western Europe, but the figures seem to be dwindling year by year.

While Christianity has declined in Western Europe primarily due to self-affliction and now perhaps even considered a lost cause, Christianity is thriving in other parts of the world such as China. China will soon have more Christians than the United States, so I am not worried at all about the decline of Christianity overall.

https://factsandtrends.net/2020/06/10/10-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2020/

 

[FGG]

While Christianity has declined in Western Europe primarily due to self-affliction and now perhaps even considered a lost cause, Christianity is thriving in other parts of the world such as China. China will soon have more Christians than the United States, so I am not worried at all about the decline of Christianity overall.

https://factsandtrends.net/2020/06/10/10-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2020/

What do you mean by "self-affliction" here? Do you mean you think there was an active process to remove Christianity?

 

[Luman]

I'm confused. After answering your question, I then asked you some questions about giving others credit for some of his successes. You then praised him instead of answering these questions. True or false: A Democratic president would have pushed out a high-quality vaccine under a similar timeline. True or false: The economy, by the metrics being used, would have been good under Hillary Clinton after taking over for Obama?

My point is not even for Trump supporters to admit that a Democrat would be better. I realize they think there's something special about the Trump economy, and in particular, the tax cut. Even if one believes this, it's certainly more than fair to look at the economic trends under Obama and conclude that Trump is not the sole reason for the continued trends. No?

I bring this up because I recall during Trump's 2018 State of the Union, Trump bragged about the lowering of the black unemployment rate, but he doesn't even mention the 8 years of Obama. I actually know Trump supporters who criticized the Congressional Black Caucus for being ungrateful.

See, if this is the mentality that he and supporters want, they can't be surprised when he also gets all of the blame.

I guarantee you if Trump gave more credit to others, he would receive less criticism for dealing with a pandemic.

I believe that a Democratic president would have pushed for a high quality vaccine. That is a no-brainer.
The economy that Hillary would have inherited from the Obama administration would have been very good. Whether she would have done as well as Trump has, since then, cannot be known, but I am very satisfied with the way that Trump handled things.
Perhaps Trump didn't give enough credit to his predecessor, but the hatred and outright lies about him, from Democrats and some Republicans, are totally unjustified.

 

[Zugzug]

I believe that a Democratic president would have pushed for a high quality vaccine. That is a no-brainer.
The economy that Hillary would have inherited from the Obama administration would have been very good. Whether she would have done as well as Trump has, since then, cannot be known, but I am very satisfied with the way that Trump handled things.
Perhaps Trump didn't give enough credit to his predecessor, but the hatred and outright lies about him, from Democrats and some Republicans, are totally unjustified.

That's as close as we're going to get to agreeing. Where I would disagree with you is I do not see the "hatred" of Trump as coming from no where. I encourage you to follow his campaign from its inception. It was always about division, stereotyping minorities, ignorance, and pissing people off. Most of the hate towards him is a reaction. And yes, occasionally he will do something okay and people won't see it because of how angry they are. I place this blame on him, not the others. I think it's fair to say, even if one thinks Obama was an awful president, he very clearly was not trying to divide.

 

[FGG]

That's as close as we're going to get to agreeing. Where I would disagree with you is I do not see the "hatred" of Trump as coming from no where. I encourage you to follow his campaign from its inception. It was always about division, stereotyping minorities, ignorance, and pissing people off. Most of the hate towards him is a reaction. And yes, occasionally he will do something okay and people won't see it because of how angry they are. I place this blame on him, not the others. I think it's fair to say, even if one thinks Obama was an awful president, he very clearly was not trying to divide.

You just need to watch the first 5 minutes of this debate to see how much more divided we are now:



The hatred of Trump is because of Trump, not because of his party. There would not have been the same backlash if Romney would have won.

 

[Luman]

That's as close as we're going to get to agreeing. Where I would disagree with you is I do not see the "hatred" of Trump as coming from no where. I encourage you to follow his campaign from its inception. It was always about division, stereotyping minorities, ignorance, and pissing people off. Most of the hate towards him is a reaction. And yes, occasionally he will do something okay and people won't see it because of how angry they are. I place this blame on him, not the others. I think it's fair to say, even if one thinks Obama was an awful president, he very clearly was not trying to divide.

I don't think that Obama or Trump have tried to divide anybody. I feel that Obama was stealing from the middle class and giving to the so-called poor, the government and his chosen constituency. Many of us were taken in by him, and woke up. Hopefully, since Biden might do the same thing, enough people turn out for the election to prevent him from bringing back the rip-offs aimed at the middle. I'd like to see Barrett confirmed as a Supreme Court justice, the ACA removed or sharply changed, and the country recover from the lockdown. That's a lot to expect, so if Biden wins I'll settle for him not dying or succumbing to dementia, to prevent Harris from taking his place as president. She's the worst of them all.