2020 US Presidential Election

[FGG]

To be honest, I feel sad that you actually think Trump gives a rip about you. You've trashed @FGG, someone who is a huge advocate for research, yet you excuse Trump. My god, Trump doesn't even care if people die from coronavirus, other than if it affects his re-election chances. He literally said "we test too much," indicating that he cares more about optics than science. You think the Trump family gives a rip about a bunch of crazies on a tinnitus forum? You think he is capable of having empathy for a problem this nuanced? The guy thinks wind causes cancer. He thought the coronavirus would go away in the warm weather. You think he cares about hidden hearing loss and advocating for important scientific breakthroughs that require trust from the patient? lmao.

You are more hostile to the people who care about you than to the people who view you as trash. You are more hostile towards me, someone who has been suicidal for a year, unable to talk, whisper, laugh, exercise, leave the house, eat dinner with my wife, etc. than you are to Trump. Even in my deeply depressed state, I still love you and want you to keep fighting. It's unbelievable.

Honestly, I think if Trump had to choose between getting your vote, but never curing your tinnitus or curing your tinnitus and maybe winning your vote, he would most certainly choose the former.

Conservatives engage in cognitive dissonance. Trump literally plays his supporters like violins and somehow convinces them that others are the sheep. It's so sad to watch. I wish you well; no one should have to go through these conditions.

It's funny that you say that because I had literally spent a few hours trying to do research to see if I could help PeteJ after reading about his pain on the suicide thread. I care too. My life is shit and his story affected me.

It's sad that this weird universe of hard right conspiracy blogs and outlets has convinced people liberals are some sort of bizarrely motivated (wanting to destroy our own country?) boogie men and women. We don't even look like people any more just a presence and an idea to be opposed.

 

[GlennS]

The progressive movements to the left in this country in the last 100 years is evidence that the right has compromised with the left far more than the other way around.

If you keep throwing out bait like this it's no wonder people draw conclusions about you. Please be specific.

If the right was so capable of compromise it would not have fought tooth and nail to stop Obamacare, for instance.

 

[aot]

This is old news I know, but I'm still confused on how anyone with a mother, daughter, sister, female friend, or any fondness for women at all could still support Trump after the whole "Grab them by the pussy." Scandal.

 

[FGG]

This is old news I know, but I'm still confused on how anyone with a mother, daughter, sister, female friend, or any fondness for women at all could still support Trump after the whole "Grab them by the pussy." Scandal.

Some people think liberals were merely offended by the word "pussy." It's like nah dude, I'm offended by boasting about the implied (and this is key, unwanted) sexual assault.

 

[Watasha]

If you keep throwing out bait like this it's no wonder people draw conclusions about you. Please be specific.

If the right was so capable of compromise it would not have fought tooth and nail to stop Obamacare, for instance.

Their ignorance is not my concern to suffer. Did anyone care to ask me my position on environmental matters? Not a productive discourse if you ask me.

Progressive accomplishments (many with non-progressive votes):

1) The Federal Reserve
2) Graduated income tax (didn't exist for all intents and purposes before 1913)
3) Inheritance tax
4) Social Security
5) FHA
6) 8 Hour workday, 40 hour workweek
7) Minimum wage
8) Right to organize unions and engage in collective bargaining
9) Medicare
10) Medicaid
11) Head start
12) CHIP (Children's Health Insurance Program)
13) National Public Radio (NPR) and PBS
14) "War on Poverty" - Love this one.....so successful....
15) Etc...etc...

Your last statement makes no sense. It's like a fish voting to have his bowl drained. Republicans by and large thought that Obamacare was the wrong course to improve healthcare in the USA, what's to compromise on.

If liberal democrats were so capable of compromise why didn't a single Democrat vote for the historic tax reform in 2017? Rhetorical, they think it's the wrong course to improve the overall economic situation of everyone in the USA.

 

[PeteJ]

To be honest, I feel sad that you actually think Trump gives a rip about you. You've trashed @FGG, someone who is a huge advocate for research, yet you excuse Trump. My god, Trump doesn't even care if people die from coronavirus, other than if it affects his re-election chances. He literally said "we test too much," indicating that he cares more about optics than science. You think the Trump family gives a rip about a bunch of crazies on a tinnitus forum? You think he is capable of having empathy for a problem this nuanced? The guy thinks wind causes cancer. He thought the coronavirus would go away in the warm weather. You think he cares about hidden hearing loss and advocating for important scientific breakthroughs that require trust from the patient? lmao.

You are more hostile to the people who care about you than to the people who view you as trash. You are more hostile towards me, someone who has been suicidal for a year, unable to talk, whisper, laugh, exercise, leave the house, eat dinner with my wife, etc. than you are to Trump. Even in my deeply depressed state, I still love you and want you to keep fighting. It's unbelievable.

Honestly, I think if Trump had to choose between getting your vote, but never curing your tinnitus or curing your tinnitus and maybe winning your vote, he would most certainly choose the former.

Conservatives engage in cognitive dissonance. Trump plays his supporters like violins and somehow convinces them that others are the sheep. It's so sad to watch. I wish you well; no one should have to go through these conditions.

I never excused or defended Trump. My most recent posts weren't even about Trump. In fact, I said that the two parties are more or less the same. I also said I believe he's a puppet. But, keep posting your long-winded nonsense. It's somewhat entertaining. It's sad that a bunch of people approved and applauded your post. I pity those delusional people.

I have been calling out the hypocrisy of liberals and leftists. They pick and choose what they criticize. They consciously ignore events and facts that don't fit their narrative. Just like what you are doing. Leftists have been in power, even by your perceptions. Obama didn't do anything for tinnitus research. People here have been complaining about the lack of funds and investment for years. Most western governments around the world have some form of social democracy and liberalism yet the attention given to tinnitus research is woefully inadequate.

I thought you read my posts and replies. I guess not. Tinnitus causes me difficulty in concentrating but I can still dispute your nonsense.

 

[PeteJ]

It's simultaneously funny and sad that a few of you say you care about me and want to help but when I point our your beloved political systems have done nothing to treat tinnitus, you just ignore me.

If you want to claim that your Trump administration is some "far right nazi government," okay? Go ahead. I am tired of arguing. But, look at the other so-called democracies. They have done squat. Virtually every Canadian concurs that our government is leftist, some even suggest far left. Yet, no assistance or attention given to tinnitus research or sufferers.

I am just trying to get you to see that (hopelessly).

 

[PeteJ]

This is old news I know, but I'm still confused on how anyone with a mother, daughter, sister, female friend, or any fondness for women at all could still support Trump after the whole "Grab them by the pussy." Scandal.

Or Clinton or Biden.

I think your critique is valid but be consistent, right????

 

[PeteJ]

Do you guys care about this?:



I usually echo Contrast's sentiments and in my own words, at the end of the day, I can no longer care about everything. But, imho, as I said, the system as a whole doesn't benefit anyone here.

Enough of that, though, one can still discuss this, right? People here obviously want to. I don't understand how people are either supporting this or are indifferent to it. Do Americans not care about history anymore? Does that apply in other countries too? I think they did it in the USA too? Or maybe they are just useful idiots and it's organized by someone much higher than these student activists.

I am aware of American history. The most significant event there was Jackson fighting the banks. But, I guess my reading is all from "far right blogs" apparently.

 

[Born To Slay]

Do you guys care about this?:



I usually echo Contrast's sentiments and in my own words, at the end of the day, I can no longer care about everything. But, imho, as I said, the system as a whole doesn't benefit anyone here.

Enough of that, though, one can still discuss this, right? People here obviously want to. I don't understand how people are either supporting this or are indifferent to it. Do Americans not care about history anymore? Does that apply in other countries too? I think they did it in the USA too? Or maybe they are just useful idiots and it's organized by someone much higher than these student activists.

I am aware of American history. The most significant event there was Jackson fighting the banks. But, I guess my reading is all from "far right blogs" apparently.

Andrew Jackson did more than fight banks. In fact, it's most likely his statue is being toppled because even by American president standards, he was notoriously cruel to the native Americans by tarting the trail of tears. In addition to his cruelty, he was very aggressive toward checks and balances. If people think Trump or Obama were bad on that, they'd be horrified if the president today said what he said about the Supreme Court.

With this in mind, I understand why they would tear his statue down.

 

[Born To Slay]

Their ignorance is not my concern to suffer. Did anyone care to ask me my position on environmental matters? Not a productive discourse if you ask me.

Progressive accomplishments (many with non-progressive votes):

1) The Federal Reserve
2) Graduated income tax (didn't exist for all intents and purposes before 1913)
3) Inheritance tax
4) Social Security
5) FHA
6) 8 Hour workday, 40 hour workweek
7) Minimum wage
8) Right to organize unions and engage in collective bargaining
9) Medicare
10) Medicaid
11) Head start
12) CHIP (Children's Health Insurance Program)
13) National Public Radio (NPR) and PBS
14) "War on Poverty" - Love this one.....so successful....
15) Etc...etc...

Your last statement makes no sense. It's like a fish voting to have his bowl drained. Republicans by and large thought that Obamacare was the wrong course to improve healthcare in the USA, what's to compromise on.

If liberal democrats were so capable of compromise why didn't a single Democrat vote for the historic tax reform in 2017? Rhetorical, they think it's the wrong course to improve the overall economic situation of everyone in the USA.

Now I guess the question is, was their opposition to the ACA on principle? This is worth asking because the ACA was not a radical proposal by any means and some of things that the GOP fought the hardest, are measures that were once supported by republicans. Such as the individual mandate. So why the sudden and dramatic change?

 

[Watasha]

Now I guess the question is, was their opposition to the ACA on principle? This is worth asking because the ACA was not a radical proposal by any means and some of things that the GOP fought the hardest, are measures that were once supported by republicans. Such as the individual mandate. So why the sudden and dramatic change?

There's a lot to unpack there and a lot of broad statements, I'll say my piece and be done.

Regarding the individual mandate:
https://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/dont-blame-heritage-obamacare-mandate

As far as the rest, it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that politics is not involved in either the ACA receiving no Republican votes, or the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act receiving no Democrat votes (which you selectively chose not to challenge).

My understanding is that Republicans in the Senate helped get many amendments added to the ACA, but at a certain point negotiations turned toxic and they were shut out (enter partisan bickering here). Perhaps it was a protest as well? I don't know. I do know that Massachusetts elected a Republican US Senator (Scott Brown) to fill ultra-liberal Ted Kennedy's seat based on the premise that he was going to vote no on the ACA.

Also, this was also occurring in the height of the Tea Party movement, and a lot of people's appetite for further government involvement in the economy was limited (direct investments in US Corps, "takeover" of Student Loan program, etc). As always, the answers are complex and murky. I do think it's a waste of time to even discuss. We would be more productive discussing the pro/cons of the ACA than the political games that go on in Washington...if we were concerned about moving the country forward.

 

[PeteJ]

Andrew Jackson did more than fight banks. In fact, it's most likely his statue is being toppled because even by American president standards, he was notoriously cruel to the native Americans by tarting the trail of tears. In addition to his cruelty, he was very aggressive toward checks and balances. If people think Trump or Obama were bad on that, they'd be horrified if the president today said what he said about the Supreme Court.

With this in mind, I understand why they would tear his statue down.

Whatever. He was one of few Presidents willing to fight corruption at the very top. Regardless of what you think of him, he's still part of history.

It's funny that you liberals support taking such statues of significant historical figures down but you support keeping or erecting statues of figures like Lenin.

You hypocrites are all the same.

(AFAIK, There's one in Seattle and a new one in Germany, of all places).

 

[Born To Slay]

Whatever. He was one of few Presidents willing to fight corruption at the very top. Regardless of what you think of him, he's still part of history.

It's funny that you liberals support taking such statues of significant historical figures down but you support keeping or erecting statues of figures like Lenin.

You hypocrites are all the same.

(AFAIK, There's one in Seattle and a new one in Germany, of all places).

History belongs in museums, not statues. Statues are memorials. I wouldn't support one of Lenin either, so your attitude is unjustified.

 

[Born To Slay]

There's a lot to unpack there and a lot of broad statements, I'll say my piece and be done.

Regarding the individual mandate:
https://www.heritage.org/health-care-reform/commentary/dont-blame-heritage-obamacare-mandate

As far as the rest, it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that politics is not involved in either the ACA receiving no Republican votes, or the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act receiving no Democrat votes (which you selectively chose not to challenge).

My understanding is that Republicans in the Senate helped get many amendments added to the ACA, but at a certain point negotiations turned toxic and they were shut out (enter partisan bickering here). Perhaps it was a protest as well? I don't know. I do know that Massachusetts elected a Republican US Senator (Scott Brown) to fill ultra-liberal Ted Kennedy's seat based on the premise that he was going to vote no on the ACA.

Also, this was also occurring in the height of the Tea Party movement, and a lot of people's appetite for further government involvement in the economy was limited (direct investments in US Corps, "takeover" of Student Loan program, etc). As always, the answers are complex and murky. I do think it's a waste of time to even discuss. We would be more productive discussing the pro/cons of the ACA than the political games that go on in Washington...if we were concerned about moving the country forward.

Ya know what? Regarding the mandate. Perfectly valid reasoning to change their minds. Especially because the mandate didn't turn out to do all that much anyway. Thanks.

Also, sorry I missed the tax cut bill point. I do believe both were politically motivated and plenty of other instances on both sides. I personally think it's a shame that that's how DC runs.

I'd be open to a discussion on the effects of the ACA and the pros and cons, sounds like an interesting convo.

 

[FGG]

History belongs in museums, not statues. Statues are memorials. I wouldn't support one of Lenin either, so your attitude is unjustified.

The Lenin one is on private property. It's just an apples and oranges right wing talking point.

 

[GlennS]

Republicans by and large thought that Obamacare was the wrong course to improve healthcare in the USA, what's to compromise on.

Republicans fixated on Obamacare as if it was an imminent existential threat to the republic (remember "death panels"???). When it passed, they then tried to repeal it over and over and over and over again. In a functioning democracy you concede when you lose and move on but it completely took over the legislature's business, grinding everything else to a halt.

If liberal democrats were so capable of compromise why didn't a single Democrat vote for the historic tax reform in 2017?

Because it was designed as a "historic" giveaway to the rich.

Trickle-down economics has done nothing to lift all boats. The only success the Republicans can claim is to have brainwashed red states otherwise while the rich get richer and the poor, poorer.

 

[GlennS]

Now I guess the question is, was their opposition to the ACA on principle? This is worth asking because the ACA was not a radical proposal by any means and some of things that the GOP fought the hardest, are measures that were once supported by republicans. Such as the individual mandate. So why the sudden and dramatic change?

Not only that--it was based on Mitt Romney's plan for Massachusetts.

Insurance companies weren't going to like it and since the GOP is now in the pocket of all big- industries (big ag, big phrama, big oil, etc...) then they vote however their corporate handlers want them to vote.

 

[Born To Slay]

The Lenin one is on private property. It's just an apples and oranges right wing talking point.

Thank for making me aware of that. There's definitely a big difference There.

 

[Watasha]

I'd be open to a discussion on the effects of the ACA and the pros and cons, sounds like an interesting convo.

Good, hopefully we can figure out something quick because the growth in the cost of healthcare is not keeping up with growth in incomes!

 

[PeteJ]

History belongs in museums, not statues. Statues are memorials. I wouldn't support one of Lenin either, so your attitude is unjustified.

There's no coordinated calls (by the Left) to remove any Lenin statues. My attitude is totally justified. You're wrong again.

 

[PeteJ]

The Lenin one is on private property. It's just an apples and oranges right wing talking point.

Blah, blah, blah. Only a matter of time.

http://mountaineagle.com/stories/cityofficials-grapple-with-confederate-flags-on-private-land,12757

 

[Lane]

The quotes below are from this article. I agree with every single word.

This is the most succinct -- and brutal -- Republican rejection of Donald Trump that you will ever read

... Every once in a while, however, someone is able to break through the clutter -- and nail exactly what it is that makes Trump so unorthodox as president. Over the weekend, Steve Schmidt, who ran John McCain's 2008 campaign for president, was that person. -- Here's his analysis of Trump, which ran almost exactly two minutes (and special shout-out to CNN's Allison Gordon for the transcription!):

"Donald Trump has been the worst president this country has ever had. And I don't say that hyperbolically. He is. But he is a consequential president. And he has brought this country in three short years to a place of weakness that is simply unimaginable if you were pondering where we are today from the day where Barack Obama left office. And there were a lot of us on that day who were deeply skeptical and very worried about what a Trump presidency would be. But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

"When you listen to the President, these are the musings of an imbecile. An idiot. And I don't use those words to name call. I use them because they are the precise words of the English language to describe his behavior. His comportment. His actions. We've never seen a level of incompetence, a level of ineptitude so staggering on a daily basis by anybody in the history of the country whose ever been charged with substantial responsibilities.

"It's just astonishing that this man is president of the United States. The man, the con man, from New York City. Many bankruptcies, failed businesses, a reality show, that branded him as something that he never was. A successful businessman. Well, he's the President of the United States now, and the man who said he would make the country great again. And he's brought death, suffering, and economic collapse on truly an epic scale.

And let's be clear. This isn't happening in every country around the world. This place. Our place. Our home. Our country. The United States. We are the epicenter. We are the place where you're the most likely to die from this disease. We're the ones with the most shattered economy. And we are because of the fool that sits in the Oval Office behind the Resolute Desk."​

 

[PeteJ]

History belongs in museums, not statues. Statues are memorials. I wouldn't support one of Lenin either, so your attitude is unjustified.

Memorials? Okay? I thought it was wise to remember history? Oh well..

 

[Lane]

But this is a moment of unparalleled national humiliation, of weakness.

I first ran across the story about the following Irish editorial a few weeks ago, and found it to be quite a sobering assessment (which I agree with). -- I found this snippet just now at the Snopes website.

The Irish Times column is real and was published on April 25, 2020. Written by columnist Fintan O'Toole, the full text of the article was obscured from some readers behind a paywall on the newspaper's site. However, it was pasted either in part or in full onto third-party websites and social media posts, or aggregated by other news media outlets, which prompted readers to ask about its authenticity and origin. -- The piece was a condemnation of U.S. President Donald Trump's leadership during the COVID-19 coronavirus disease pandemic.

"Over more than two centuries, the United States has stirred a very wide range of feelings in the rest of the world: love and hatred, fear and hope, envy and contempt, awe and anger. But there is one emotion that has never been directed towards the US until now: pity," O'Toole wrote.

"However bad things are for most other rich democracies, it is hard not to feel sorry for Americans. Most of them did not vote for Donald Trump in 2016. Yet they are locked down with a malignant narcissist who, instead of protecting his people from Covid-19, has amplified its lethality. The country Trump promised to make great again has never in its history seemed so pitiful."​

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Lane All US presidents since the sixties have been glued to special $ interest, never mind their own interests.

Wall Streets talks with computer trading - either long, short or hedged and politicians walk on either the right or left side of Wall Street. The real news is that the rich still rule.

 

[Born To Slay]

There's no coordinated calls (by the Left) to remove any Lenin statues. My attitude is totally justified. You're wrong again.

Because no one cares about private property statues. People don't want their tax dollars going to them. As far as your article, be rest assured that that's not constitutional.

And by your attitude, I mean ur obscene disregard for others in this thread. This is a thread for civil discourse, there is no place for personal insults and nasty behavior and you've been talked to about this before. I don't understand why you can't be cordial in this thread.

 

[Born To Slay]

Good, hopefully we can figure out something quick because the growth in the cost of healthcare is not keeping up with growth in incomes!

In my view the American people are either going to have to accept one of the two premises:

A. Cuts to doctors and hospitals, assembly line healthcare and rationing care

Or

B. Severe cuts to the healthcare social safety net or massive tax hikes

 

[Lane]

@Lane All US presidents since the sixties have been glued to special $ interest, never mind their own interests.

I think the problem goes back much further than the sixties--or at least Mark Twain thought so...

 

[Zugzug]

I have been calling out the hypocrisy of liberals and leftists. They pick and choose what they criticize. They consciously ignore events and facts that don't fit their narrative. Just like what you are doing. Leftists have been in power, even by your perceptions. Obama didn't do anything for tinnitus research. People here have been complaining about the lack of funds and investment for years. Most western governments around the world have some form of social democracy and liberalism yet the attention given to tinnitus research is woefully inadequate.

Certainly I'm not going to sit here and pretend like tinnitus research is some mission of the left. I think of it more like the issues surrounding disability. Liberals support greater social safety nets, which is very important for people who are chronically ill.

I know we like to bash the way tinnitus research (or lack thereof) is conducted, but it's true that some of the reason we don't have a cure is because the problem is so difficult. There are plenty of diseases that are correctly discussed, funded, and still don't have cures. Social safety nets matter.

You mentioned Obama. Obama didn't do anything for tinnitus research, but he did allow young people to stay on their parents' insurance until 26. I've been chronically ill since I was 24; this kind of stuff matters.

By the way, the ironic part is that you are upset that people are misrepresenting your views. I'm not even a leftist -- far from it actually. I'm somewhere between Biden and Sanders on most issues.

On policing and law and order, I'm center right. Fully support dreamers, but otherwise moderate on immigration. I think police should be funded more, not less. The way I see the problem is that policing needs to become a more desirable, but elite job. Make it a more desirable job, increase the supply, and then set high bars for maintaining status; significantly more training as well. The left has the correct spirit in wanting better policing, but they take for granted that cops just show up and risk their lives. It rubs me the wrong way. I want good people to become cops, and the left wing approach doesn't make anyone want the job. Of course, abolishing police is just lunacy. It's also lunacy is that if someone (of any race) resists arrest and tries to assault the officer, the officer is in the wrong for protecting themselves. Like I said, being a cop is a hard and risky job.

For the statues, I have mixed feelings. For the highly controversial figures -- like Jackson and Robert E. Lee -- I don't give a rip if someone tears them down. I don't support tearing down the founding fathers because I think they provide historical perspective. We can't just pretend that history doesn't exist. It won't work.

It may seem like I'm a hardcore leftist because I think Trump is the devil, which he is. If the republican party had real standards, and weren't just a bunch of privileged white guys who never looked in the mirror, my values would be a mix of center left and center right on most issues. Far left on economic justice and social safety nets. Far left on gun control and climate change. Center left on education. Far right on nothing.