Agnostics “R” Us...

You assume that - but how do you know it is true?

Gun ownership does not seem to deter gun homicides - judging by the figures.

 

Right now my ears are screaming. it hurts really bad and my other health ailments have had me question God, but my thoughts are this; who am I to question what He has allowed. He is God and I am not. I believe that His Word is true when He says that one day He will come back and make all things right. The pain I feel is torturous, extremely. I'm about to cry right now my tinnitus is so bad. God did not promise health, wealth, and prosperity. Christ came to take on the wrath of God. He didn't promise an easy life, but rather eternal life.

I'm sorry that any of us have to go through this. I don't like it either. It hurts.

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this too. This is so hard.

 

I posted that statement here by accident, it was meant for a political thread, as I stopped posting in this thread over a year ago due to an inability to agree with most who claim to be atheists or agnostic (I am an atheist). I was almost tempted to mention that I was right about the Dalai Lama, who was recently photographed telling a young boy to "suck my tongue" which proved that he is a degenerate like so many others in his disgusting profession.

That issue aside, as long as you answered, my main reason for supporting ownership of firearms, besides protection against criminals, is to prevent a tyrannical government from taking over the country. Again, I have never owned any firearms, as my state has the most stringent gun laws in the country.

 

I am not a believer but I have spent a lifetime around Christians. My mother, my wife and her entire family and two of my very best friends. 5 of them died in their 50s and suffered horribly and they were all seriously committed to their lord. I have no idea if there is a God or not but I do know one thing with certainty. Faith has no effect on our earthly existence as far as physical suffering is concerned. Maybe it brings comfort in the suffering and then there is the whole glory of heaven and pain free eternity after you die if you are saved as @SarahMLFlemmer has put forth. I definitely have no idea about that last part nor will I ever be able to know. Here on earth 1 the cavalry ain't commin'.

As a matter of fact the far right states which fight the hardest for unobstructed gun ownership are the most violent. It's a self reinforcing cycle like nuclear proliferation as a deterrent except that the button keeps getting pressed. There are so many countries with low gun ownership, low violent crime and happiness. The escalation deterrent model is not the only way.

 

Hi! Thank you for your replies. It's nice to talk to people who disagree but can still hold a cordial conversation. I appreciate all who have replied here.

I'm curious, what is your opposition to acknowledging Christ as LORD, George?

 

After decades of exposure to the concept and searching for my truth I just come up empty on this. I just don’t feel anything towards it. It may have something to do with being very technical and spending a lifetime researching, testing, proving, and doubting critical assertions until I can verify for myself. This is inherently unknowable in that sense. There are only stories handed down and very old third hand testimony in writing decades removed from the asserted events. I don’t accept anything of such importance based on hearsay, I am wired to determine for myself. I know that to the believer, the Bible is the inerrant word of God, but to me it’s just a book with some good stuff in it. That’s why they call it faith, it cannot be proven as frequently outlined by @Stuart-T in this thread.

I have developed strong feelings on things throughout my life, a gut feel, an educated guess, things that I believe to be true without all the classic “evidence” but that never happened here. I think that people often struggle with life and the many questions about suffering, fear, what happens when we die, facing grief, etc. and this brings comfort, it has an explanation for what ails us. The God effect is very real. I guess I don’t need answers to those questions and so this is a solution to a problem that I don’t have. The whole thing just seems to be reverse engineered to fit the human condition, and all the “proof” if you will only existed in the ancient world and I just don’t see or hear anything that inspires me.

I remember when I found out that the Romans ruled with brutal authority and nailed thousand of people to crosses, often lining roads with the the remains of those that were deemed trouble makers. Thousands were “crucified”, it was very common. That and then I heard often that the Jews “killed” Jesus, not the Romans, and that one of his disciples ratted him out. The whole thing just made no sense. The essence of Christianity is that Jesus died for your sins, it is a necessary part of the story but then why are we mad at the Jews or even the Romans? Without them, there is no Christianity. Why do we need pain and suffering and then need to pray for healing? Why not just have no suffering in the first place? I know, a test of faith. The whole thing just seems to be an explanation for what is. I am just not feeling it.

You are very kind and seem to have a true grasp of the essence of Christianity and try to live the word without hypocrisy from what I see here. I do respect that as many cherry pick the whole thing and their usage of the whole concept merely reflects their less than stellar personality traits.

 

Pascal's wager is a philosophical argument presented by the seventeenth-century French mathematician, philosopher, physicist and theologian Blaise Pascal (1623–1662). It posits that human beings wager with their lives that God either exists or does not.



Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (an eternity in Hell).

 

I have been presented with and read this viewpoint before. The problem is that unless you really believe this in your heart, and any such God that exists will know your heart, then saying you're a Christian won't help you as would/will be the case for many who profess to be so. Searching and not finding therefore presents quite a dilemma. The just in case argument won't help someone who really does not have this in their heart even after searching. It would in effect be an arranged marriage where no actual love and hence no salvation exists. If you don't believe it, then saying you should believe it because there may be consequences doesn't get you there.

 

We look like ants from an airplane. It’s hard to believe a supreme being would be tracking our thoughts and behavior 24/7 and deciding our fate, but maybe so. It’s hard for me to even think straight with tinnitus in the background in my ears/head. Eating a pizza seemed to make my noise worse.

 

Pizza sounds good, maybe we should be talking about pizza instead. Lol. Yes salt among other things makes my tinnitus spike but it’s temporary

 

There is also the problem - even if you could will yourself truly to believe in your heart - of picking the wrong God.

 

No religion is over 50% of the population so, statistically, you're right about that, with any choice. In another couple of decades “no affiliation” is projected to exceed 50%, so...

 

If Christianity is true - it boggles the mind to think about all the souls there are being toasted for all eternity.

One point - of all the people that have ever existed - something like 50% died in childhood (prior to modern times - death in childhood was very common). In impoverished parts of the world - this or something near it is still the case.

How is that state of affairs compatible with Christianity?

 

It gets even worse. My brother-in-law told me that I am the proof of Calvinism because I searched so diligently with an open mind and found nothing. In his view the only possible explanation is that God chose those who would be saved and those that would be subject to eternal damnation before all of time and that I am in the latter category. No amount of effort or commitment can change my destiny. He of course is in the club and knows this with certainty. Man this game plays under jungle rules. Eternal glory or eternal damnation, all decided before you were even born. Unable to resist at least some response I simply said that there was an equally plausible explanation, that I searched and found nothing because nothing is there. So in essence the group that are right are a lot smaller than just those that profess to be Christians because of the infinite conflicting dogma(s).

 

Have we discussed the problem of infinite regression? This is another area of contentious debate among atheists and theists.

You will have some theists who claim that everything needs a creator and that the universe cannot have existed forever. It could not have come into existence out of nothing which leads them to conclude that there had to be a creator of the universe. They call this creator deity, God.

When crediting God for the creation of the universe, atheists will usually respond with “So if God created the universe, then what created God, and then what created the thing that created God”? This will go on and on and so thus, we run into the problem of infinite regress. It’s usually in this instance where I feel like theists break their own rule that everything needs a creator and claim that God does not need one and has always existed. It’s either everything needs a creator, including God, which leads us to a continuous and ceaseless chain of creators (the infinite regression), or nothing automatically needs a creator which then means that the universe does not need a creator either.

I give credit to Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas (theist) for providing an answer to this problem, commonly known as the cosmological argument. Thomas Aquinas’ argument of the ‘first cause’ or "uncaused cause" states that everything in the universe must have a first cause that sets everything in motion which in this case is God, ‘the ultimate creator’.

There’s a few good counter arguments to this. The cosmological argument operates under the assumption that causality applies to the universe as a whole, rather than just within the universe. It's certainly possible that there is no "first cause" because the universe itself is eternal and has no beginning. I know some atheists have also argued that even if the universe did have a beginning, it doesn't necessarily mean that this requires a deity to have caused it.

 

God is described as a spirit who is eternal and everlasting. No one created God. God created time through the creation of the universe, and He Himself is not bound by the constraints of time. It is difficult to grasp what a world without time is like. The dictionary defines time as measurable and/or the point or period when something occurs. In a world without time, there is neither birth nor death, starts nor ends, etc. So, I think it is fair to say if we lived in a space without time, we would similarly be eternal.

 

Several scientific models based on quantum physics such as causal set theory believe that the universe had no beginning, that it always was. These theories conclude that the Big Bang was an event, not the beginning. It’s unknowable either way. The vastness and complexity of the known universe is impossible for most people to get their heads wrapped around but that does not in itself justify a creator. Anyone or anything can have always been. Or not.

 

The Big Bang is an expansion, and if it's an expansion - then clearly there was something to expand from. It is nonsensical to claim there was ever absolute nothing. For something to be - it has to be something. Nothing can never be.

 

So there are a couple of issues with the statement above. Firstly, saying God created time because he is not bound by time is circular reasoning. You assume that God exists outside of time, and you’re using that assumption to explain how God created time. This is a pretty flawed argument because it starts with the very thing it is trying to prove.

Secondly, like I mentioned in my previous post, your statement assumes everything requires a cause or a creator, hence the problem with causation. If there is a need for a creator, then God must have have a creator as well, i.e. infinite regress which is nearly impossible to logically explain.

Thirdly, and what @Stuart-T would likely say — your statement above lacks evidence. The idea of a timeless God is not empirically verifiable and has no scientific basis. I understand that it is ultimately a matter of personal belief or faith which is perfectly fine.

Lastly, there are other explanations (which @GeorgeLG has alluded to) for the creation of the universe and the concept of time, such as the Big Bang theory, quantum mechanics, and the laws of physics. These explanations definitely do not require the existence of a supernatural supreme being to explain their existence. Einstein saw time as another dimension (4th) for example.

Let me just say, I’m not here to disapprove God or that he created time. Just analyzing arguments made by believers and theists and critiquing the assumptions and reasoning behind them. I did minor in philosophy if anyone is wondering. One thing I was thought when formulating arguments is to discern, recognize, and anticipate any potential objections that might arise from your argument. The goal is to strengthen arguments so that it’s difficult to find any contradictions/flaws/fallacies in them. Consistency is key. Easier said than done though. I commit errors in thinking all the time. Hard to stay disciplined.

While on this topic, I just want to say, it's really astonishing how incompatible quantum mechanics and relativity are with each other. Einstein's relativity makes no sense when you scale it down to quantum size. You get bizarre infinite values when you describe gravity on a quantum level. And conversely, quantum mechanics runs into big issues when you blow it up to cosmological dimensions. Both show us 2 very different realities (quantum mechanics is really weird), both can be proven eloquently with math, both have real world applications, and yet it's currently impossible to reconcile the two together. What gives...

 

Someone told me that I will be deader than a doornail when I expire. I’m not sure what to make of that statement. It doesn’t really sound all that positive. I was hoping he would say I’m definitely going to heaven when I die.

@ZFire, that’s a bit too deep for me. I just want to know if you think there is a God and an afterlife, or are you an atheist?

 

Hi George! Wow! Thank you for your well thought out reply! You seem like a very interesting fella and it's nice to meet you! Yeah... without the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, there would be no Christianity. It had to happen. I think that the Jews are still looking for their Messiah today! They didn't recognize Christ as LORD. They wanted the Messiah to rule and reign here on earth, but what they got was a Messiah that ruled and reigned in something that is not of this world, and is also now in us (the Holy Spirit) until He returns. I don't think that's what they were expecting so they are still waiting 'til this day.

Tho Bible doesn't promise health, in fact it says we will have trials and suffering. It is weird that we still pray for healing though, I agree. I guess we ask for it anyways through prayer in order to have relationship with Him. Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden where there was no pain and no suffering, until Satan twisted God's words (which he still does today) and Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Since then we have faced death and decay. We live in a fallen world. Scripture in the Old Testament foreshadows what was to come, and that is salvation from our sins once and for all. We are reconciled to the Father when we believe on Christ.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I'm not here to convince you, I don't think I in myself how the power or the intellect to do that. I'm just an average Joe. I do believe that God is drawing each and every one in this chat here to Himself. He's knocking on the door of your heart and I pray that one day you'll open it and let Him in! (Revelation 3:20)

How is everyone today?

 

Hey @just1morething.

I lean heavily on the NO side. But again, I mentioned it a while a back that I’ve had to reconsider how I discuss this topic with believers since being inflicted with severe tinnitus. If their faith can bring them a peace of mind and comfort while they go through tough ordeals like tinnitus, then more power to them. I think it’s important to respect that and I need to be careful not to hurt people’s feelings about these things. Mocking or ridiculing believers is unacceptable for me. But I always enjoy a good debate about this topic.

The realist in me say nothingness happens after death, but I’ve dabbled in something called Loop theory in the past, still do to an extent. I go over it here. It’s a really depressing theory. We essentially relieve our lives ad infinitum with the high possibility that there will be NO deviations to what we are already experiencing in the course of our lives. This means that we’re destined to acquire tinnitus over and over again. It means a homeless person is forever doomed to live a life of misery. It means babies infected with horrifying, painful, and fatal bone cancer will die very young over and over again. That’s why I try to make the best with what I got. No telling what really happens after death.

If I may ask, why are you so curious about what I think though lol? I want everyone to know that I’m not some kind of arbitrator of truth lol. I do enjoy philosophy and learning about the cosmos and its various theories though, that’s it.

 

It's all good, I know how important this is to you so I respect how you feel, same with my wife and her family. It's the journey man, a wild ride to be sure.

 

Bit off-topic, but a short story by Stephen King called "Afterlife" tells of a tale exactly like this. A man, finding himself in something of a purgatory after his death, is offered the chance to 're-live' his life, or choose eternal rest. What the man doesn't know is that he's already made the choice to be resurrected 15 times already. Swearing to make different life choices, he is revived with no memory of his previous lives. And on goes the loop.

I read this back in 2011, and it stood out to me amongst King's many short stories. It's just so depressingly hopeless. So to hear that there's an actual theory around this phenomena (that King was probably inspired by) is uhhh... well I'm glad it's just a theory lol. If we had a choice like the guy from the story, I think I'd opt for door #2, knowing what we know.

 

There are so many versions out there to pick from. Hinduism is your Stephen King story but with an eventual offramp (Moksha) if and when you get your shit together through multiple rebirths (Samsara). There are over 1 billion Hindus. My feeling is that people go with either what they are taught or what appeals to them, what aligns with their personality or their view of the world. A kind, loving person goes for a kind loving God and so on.

 

Is there a world or space without time?

Not as far as I am aware.

You are just making statements about God - assigning God gender etc. No demonstration that your statements are true.

What does that say about the Jews who wrote the Old Testament?

Angry, jealous, vengeful, genocidal God?

It depends. Bertrand Russel said he had loved living his life - and he would live it again if he was given that opportunity.

Living in an endless loop, with same stuff over and over, might be better than an eternal sleep without dreaming and never waking.

Sadly - I am near certain the latter is the truth for all. At least no tinnitus. Silence at last.

 

Interesting. I have never heard of that short story by King and it definitely shares a lot of similarities to loop theory. Will be looking into it. Thanks.

According to loop theory, once we expire, we'll have no recollection of previous cycles other than the transient déjà vu indicating the most often repeated occurrences and of a prior existence (regardless of any deviations). I wonder right now how many times I have written this post to you in this exact moment already... It’s really interesting to think about nonetheless.

But yeah, just a theory and there’s valid objections to it.

 

I was thinking that I'd be content with just leaving your post a like and maybe that's what I would have done in a past life but y'know what? Right here right now I am challenging fate. I'm choosing to reply this time. This response is the lone catalyst that will alter the course of our future.

Guess I can kick back now and let fate do the rest.

 

Not just the Jews but some Christians cherry pick the New Testament and/or Old Testament to suit their world view. The judgy angry people that like catching people not flying right and seeing punishment go Old Testament.

Who says that if there is a God that "he" will be nice? Since we are talking about modern stories, there was a Star Trek movie about the supreme being not being very nice.