Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

[Bill Bauer]

Such selfless heroes.

In a crisis, healthcare should be free. That means that the doctors and nurses would have to work for free. It's ok though - they're heroes so there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Lane]

If not, then what criteria are you using to evaluate people's worth to society, and why should I care?

@linearb -- Mr. Bauer has informed me I'm on his Ignore List (but not before calling me a Marxist for only his god knows what reason). So I presume he won't be reading this. -- If I could answer your query to Mr. B, I would just say I don't think you should care. My own preference would be that you and others refrain from asking him such open ended questions on this thread--which invariably derails it. This thread is one of the very few I'm following these days.

Generally speaking, it seems Mr. B often says something provocative (or outlandish), just to find an opening for him to share his worldview. It's like he's baiting people, and I think engaging with him only encourages his behavior. I noticed @Star64's excellent reply to some of his outrageous comments, but I'd bet a fortune he didn't take one iota of that in. -- So, that's just my take. Be assured, I'm not trying to tell you how to engage with this guy. I guess I just wanted to share my own perspective, which is: why bother?

 

[linearb]

Generally speaking, it seems Mr. B often says something provocative (or outlandish), just to find an opening for him to share his worldview. It's like he's baiting people, and I think engaging with him only encourages his behavior. I saw @Star64's reply to some of his outrageous comments, but I'd bet a fortune he didn't take one iota of that in. -- So, that's just my take. Be assured, I'm not trying to tell you how to engage with this character. I guess I just wanted to share my own perspective, which is: why bother?

I'm perpetually incapable of not taking the bait; plus, being called an (implicitly degenerate) pothead amuses me. It makes me wonder what the person slinging that insult is doing with their life (and for their community, and family/friends) that's so great they think dismissing me with a label could possibly feel condescending to me. I'm reminded me of being in high school, walking in the halls between advanced placement classes, and having C/D-students tell me I was garbage because I didn't dress the way they did or listen to the same music they did -- except now I have 20+ years of self confidence piled on that, so instead of being cowed it just makes me an arrogant windbag.

There's an honest answer for you; I'll drop it. There is, in fact, a whole thread about cannabis; I can only assume it's full of degenerates and heroin users; if anyone wants to come sling labels there, me and my degenerate pals will be happy to have a thoughtful and friendly conversation.

 

[Jazzer]

Please tell me I have I read this post wrong or are you actually saying medical staff should not be treating patients right now due to the risk of them catching COVID-19 and putting their own families at risk?

Am I also reading the next paragraph wrong that you feel that medical personal are only working because they have a love for money????

I can tell you Bill if that is what you are saying, you better stay healthy right now, your loved ones better stay healthy right now, not just because of COVID-19.

Ill health does not stop for COVID-19!!!!!

COVID-19 certainly places extra stress on an already fractured system in a lot of countries, but elderly patients were still being attended too in the ER last night that have fallen and fractured their hips, the young 8 year old boy who fell off his bike and fractured his leg, the man that suffered acute appendicitis, cancer treatments etc, the list goes on and on, illness and accidents do not just stop because of COVID-19.

If I wanted to make serious money Bill I would not have chosen nursing as a career, I spent years at university Bill, my nursing career cost me money to undertake, I had to work for years to pay off this debt, I chose nursing because I was interested in health, MONEY is no good to anyone, money comes and goes, HEALTH is the most important thing anyone can have.

I actually thought you would realise this as we all have a degree of ill health on this site, wouldn't we all like to just be healthy individuals again.

My friends and family members do not expect people to stand and applaud them for just doing their job, but to say medical personal are just turning up for the sake of money is ludicrous. Please tell me Bill I have read this post wrong, for if not, I am at a loss as to what you are thinking!!!!!

Well said Star.
A great response to a particularly nasty post.
xx

 

[Bill Bauer]

Such selfless heroes.
Incredible people.

I haven't watched "The Simpsons" in years (as in "a lot longer than 10 years"), but I remember seeing an episode where a large number of characters find themselves in some kind of a net. This net forces this group of people into a ball and this ball floats in the ocean. Eventually the ball settles in an equilibrium in which half of it (recall the ball is made up of people) is submerged under water. Homer Simpson finds himself at the top of the ball. He immediately starts talking about the people on the other side of the ball (who are being drowned as he speaks) as being "heroes" whose "sacrifice" must never be forgotten.

Hilarious!

I tried to find this clip on YouTube, but thus far I haven't been successful.

 

[Lane]

For a bit of perspective, there's now been about 60,000+ coronavirus deaths worldwide since this pandemic started. This compares to about 14,000,000+ deaths from non-coronavirus related causes since the beginning of the year.

Worldometer

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Lane That site is scary as is this one.

https://usdebtclock.org/

 

[Lane]

On Thursday Dr. Fauci co-authored a report on the coronavirus in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Snippet from the above linked NEJM article:

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2"

 

[Lane]

I wish I could edit my previous posts after 30 minutes, so I didn't have to create so many new posts as I continue my research. -- I thought this was interesting:

Imperial College scientist who predicted 500K coronavirus deaths in UK adjusts figure to 20K or fewer

Snippet:

"A scientist who warned that the coronavirus would kill 500,000 people in the United Kingdom has presented evidence that if current measures work as expected, the death toll would drop to roughly 20,000 people or fewer. ... Scientist and Imperial College author Neil Ferguson said Wednesday the coronavirus death toll is unlikely to exceed 20,000 and could be much lower if lockdown measures continue..."

 

[Jack V]

Isn't what they have been doing part of their job description?

For most occupations it's true that the society wouldn't function and people would die if the members of that occupations were to stop working.

Is there any circumstance in which you would support the act of applause?

For example, would you argue that it is inappropriate for an audience to applaud a musical performance since the musician is "only doing their job?"

Is the value of the applause to the recipient more or less than $10?

More.

Your ideas got tested. We have had collectivist vs. individualist systems squaring off. The collectivist system (where everyone from cradle to grave got reminded to sacrifice for the good of the others, and those were in fact the values of those societies) was the one that had collapsed. Note that nowadays its collectivist everywhere. Not going to last long - and we are already seeing harbingers of that.

I genuinely don't follow what you're saying or how it counters the idea that societies which value selflessness thrive, with parents sacrificing for the sake of their children, warriors sacrificing for the security of the tribe, and "heroes" risking their own lives to help people who are no more than strangers to them.

 

[Bill Bauer]

For example, would you argue that it is inappropriate for an audience to applaud a musical performance since the musician is "only doing their job?"

I guess the more routine something is, the less appropriate it is to respond to it by applauding. A doctor doing their job at a hospital seems routine to me. If a doctor has access to protective equipment that eliminates any risk to the doctor, then this doctor working at a hospital (full of pandemic patients) is still pretty routine.

If a doctor is working while risking his or her life - that's no longer routine. In that case, I don't believe it would warrant an applause for the same reason applauding suicide bombers and kamikaze pilots wouldn't be appropriate. What they had done (or are about to do) is simply wrong, despite possibly providing many benefits for the others.

Another reason doctors/nurses might risk their lives is that they might be bound to lose their job (and have trouble finding a new job in the field) if they were to insist on working only if they are provided with a safe work environment. I hope Star64 would be able to shine light on that. If that were the case, then the doctors would be doing it because they had been compelled to do it. An applause in that case would make as much sense as Homer Simpson making a speech about heroes who got unlucky to be on the other side of the ball, instead of doing something to actually help those people.

To answer your question - applauding makes sense when something unusual is happening that isn't vile. Applauding someone who has entertained the crowd by risking his life by walking on a tight rope without a safety net is wrong.

More.

It happens to be the opposite for me.

societies which value selflessness thrive

Thrive? Am I missing something? USSR, 1944 Japan, Nazi Germany, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia (I could go on) all made selflessness Central to their ideology and culture. It never ends well.

warriors sacrificing for the security of the tribe

In primitive tribes and feudal societies where this sort of stuff went on, those warriors had a certain societal role. It is my understanding that during feudal times knights would enjoy lots of privileges during peace time, and would be expected to risk their lives during wars. Deserters would risk being punished physically, as well as losing their status. You see a sacrifice, whereas I see people responding (appropriately) to incentives (cleverly created for them by their king).

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I worked in many hospitals including top national trauma 1 medical centers. Way before the virus going back decades, waiting times in the ER's were often hours. People with life threatening conditions were told to sit in the waiting rooms. ER nurses were burnt out. Some ER nurses and doctors cared and some really didn't.

Most caregivers know little about tinnitus or care and most have never heard of hyperacusis or pulsatile tinnitus. Part of this problem is the cost system and time allowance. Vascular doctors where PT may be causing tinnitus should perform pulse testing and that takes two hours. This and many other tinnitus exams take time and all precautions should be taken. Most physical causes of tinnitus are known and it's up the medical community to get their act together and start caring with team effort.

ICU nurses and therapists on the other hand are caring and well trained. The best doctors are radiologists and they will often tell a patient with tinnitus that your doctor ordered the wrong test and more intervention is needed. The management that runs most hospitals and healthcare centers are just money grapping thieves.

Tinnitus isn't usually a stand alone, it connects to something gone wrong - a condition, disease or injury, unless there's hair cell damage. There are millions of research studies on conditions, diseases and injury where researchers note indicated influences of this to the development of tinnitus.

 

[valeri]

Tinnitus research, before virus, was hardly a step out of Stone Age so it scares me to think where will we be when all this is gone!

Is there something before Stone Age?

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Tinnitus research, before virus, was hardly a step out of Stone Age so it scares me to think where will we be when all this is gone!

Google scholar has over ten thousand highly professional research articles on all the conditions and diseases that can cause tinnitus. It's up to the medical community to start reading and take action. Granted more research is needed to restore hair cells. Some in the tinnitus space have corporate interests where from them they receive a paycheck. If these orgs. really cared, they would insist on better healthcare for those with tinnitus.

Thoughts of researchers from medical journals.

The individual, societal and healthcare burden of tinnitus needs strategic prioritization to improve knowledge and availability of care from healthcare. Most tinnitus research groups understand that tinnitus and pain is of same impact. Indeed, tinnitus impact and chronic pain is as great as, or greater than other priorities in healthcare. We have argued that tinnitus should be ranked along side other conditions within established healthcare.

We need strategies to help overcome barriers for effective tinnitus care resulting in particular from deficiencies in education and access to interdisciplinary tinnitus management medical services. Healthcare needs to address our concerns and divert to availability of proven treatments. Education of physicians and allied health professionals regarding state-of-the-art tinnitus management and physical treatment is crucial.

Little process has been made and much more provision and incentivization is required. We support a tiered approach to tinnitus treatments, whereby patients not having satisfying results by non specialists are able to consult a physician with tinnitus competency and then receive the services of other professionals on a case-by-case basis. A fully integrated interdisciplinary team should ideally be available to patients with tinnitus.

Governments and healthcare systems should ensure that their policies are balanced without undue restrictions that compromise patent care, and that physician education programmes support these aims. Strategic prioritization and co-ordinated actions are needed nationally and internationally to address the unacceptable attitudes of healthcare towards those with tinnitus. Policy makers need to address this.

 

[Chinmoku]

@Bill Bauer I submit to you the story of professor Sabin. He discovered an effective vaccine for polio.

"Sabin refused to patent his vaccine, waiving every commercial exploitation by pharmaceutical industries, so that the low price would guarantee a more extensive spread of the treatment. From the development of his vaccine Sabin did not gain a single dollar, and continued to live on his salary as a professor. The Sabin Vaccine Institute was founded in 1993 to continue the work of developing and promoting vaccines. To commemorate Sabin's pioneering work, the institute annually awards the Albert B. Sabin Gold Medal in recognition of work in the field of vaccinology or a complementary field."

Sabin could have become a millionaire but children would have died in the meantime during the patent paperwork. He thus decided giving up millions was worth saving a few more children. From what you write he must be an idiot in your book, a naive man, a stupid idealist. He is a hero in my book. There are things that don't have a price tag. Lives of children are some of them for me.

You are obsessed with attaching a monetary value to everything. Don't do that please or you'll end up like some of these wall street "people" who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

The NHS clapping does not have to be seen in a digital logic. We clap medical personnel because they are risking their life with poor equipment but it does not mean we approve of the poor equipment, for example.

As for money, do you really believe for a second that people are paid in proportion to how helpful they are to society? Really? The head of equity trading of JPMorgan probably makes hundred of times the money of key medical researchers or surgeons. Who do you think is more helpful to society?

There is brainwashing going on for sure here, but I don't think it's where you think it is.

 

[aot]

@Bill Bauer, out of curiousity: Are you a fan of Ayn Rand? Been skimming your posts and you strike me as someone super into Ayn Rand.

 

[Bill Bauer]

If mortality depends on how many viral particles one is exposed to, then quarantine might not be effective. If one person in the household gets infected, the rest of the household might end up getting a higher exposure compared to someone who got infected by touching a surface outside or by being with an infected person for a short period of time.

In Italy there are many multi-generational households. So many of the seniors who got infected got infected as a result of prolonged exposure at home (they got exposed to a high viral load). This might be the reason why the mortality rate in Italy is so high.

It might also explain this:

 

[Chinmoku]

Italy: Giampiero Giron, 85 years old, Venetian anesthetist. "They asked for my availability, and I said yes. When you decide to be a doctor in life, you get involved. I swore an oath. Afraid of getting sick? Then it is better not to be a doctor ».

This is an emeritus professor anesthesiologist in Padua, living in mestre-venice, one of the areas most hit by the crisis

 

[all to gain]

For a bit of perspective, there's now been about 60,000+ coronavirus deaths worldwide since this pandemic started. This compares to about 14,000,000+ deaths from non-coronavirus related causes since the beginning of the year.

Worldometer

I love looking at such sites. They remind me of just how inconsequential our lives really are in the grand scheme of things. To think that 107 billion people have ever lived, yet we get to meet but a few in our lifetime. No wonder ruthless politicians and leaders go out to make their mark on history and at our cost. We are meaningless to them. While we will all be forgotten, except by those close to us, major world leaders, especially the biggest tyrants, will live forever.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Tinnitus research, before virus, was hardly a step out of Stone Age so it scares me to think where will we be when all this is gone!

Is there something before Stone Age?

Hello Valeri, Daniel here...

For noise induced tinnitus, hearing regeneration is science fiction... not stone age. Neuromodulation for somatic tinnitus and mild tinnitus from other sources is not chopped liver, i.e. it's high tech.

Universe willing we will all survive this virus and as importantly the gifted scientists who are ushering in these medical marvels will survive and pass on their knowledge as well.

I predict that after the virus the goods we need will be more accelerated... I just want it before the environment completely shits out. It is going to shit out clearly, our leaders and are entire civilization systems that we interact with and are dependent on are clearly unsustainable and ushering in a firey nasty planet for human habitation. Has to be said. Sorry y'all.

I'd be super happy with things less freaking noisy inside my head, as would all of us. I really believe many of us will experience medical miracles.

 

[Daniel Lion]

@Bill Bauer I submit to you the story of professor Sabin. He discovered an effective vaccine for polio.

"Sabin refused to patent his vaccine, waiving every commercial exploitation by pharmaceutical industries, so that the low price would guarantee a more extensive spread of the treatment. From the development of his vaccine Sabin did not gain a single dollar, and continued to live on his salary as a professor. The Sabin Vaccine Institute was founded in 1993 to continue the work of developing and promoting vaccines. To commemorate Sabin's pioneering work, the institute annually awards the Albert B. Sabin Gold Medal in recognition of work in the field of vaccinology or a complementary field."

Sabin could have become a millionaire but children would have died in the meantime during the patent paperwork. He thus decided giving up millions was worth saving a few more children. From what you write he must be an idiot in your book, a naive man, a stupid idealist. He is a hero in my book. There are things that don't have a price tag. Lives of children are some of them for me.

You are obsessed with attaching a monetary value to everything. Don't do that please or you'll end up like some of these wall street "people" who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

The NHS clapping does not have to be seen in a digital logic. We clap medical personnel because they are risking their life with poor equipment but it does not mean we approve of the poor equipment, for example.

As for money, do you really believe for a second that people are paid in proportion to how helpful they are to society? Really? The head of equity trading of JPMorgan probably makes hundred of times the money of key medical researchers or surgeons. Who do you think is more helpful to society?

There is brainwashing going on for sure here, but I don't think it's where you think it is.

Your demeanor is always gentle.
You are also, clearly, very smart.
I always appreciate your tone, eloquence and knowledge.

Wish you weren't here because of shitnitus, but glad you are... that makes no freaking sense. You know what I mean.
Stay safe with your family

 

[GregCA]

For a bit of perspective, there's now been about 60,000+ coronavirus deaths worldwide since this pandemic started. This compares to about 14,000,000+ deaths from non-coronavirus related causes since the beginning of the year.

Worldometer

"For a bit of perspective", these other non-coronavirus deaths don't grow exponentially.

Pay me $2 a year and double that every year (yay! next year I'll have $4!). For over a decade I'll be hearing "for a bit of perspective, his income is below the poverty level of all the countries in the world". After 10 years, my yearly income is only going to be $1,024 and people still won't understand what exponential growth means... but soon after I'll be the one laughing.

Apparently it takes the crossing of a threshold ("more than flu deaths" or "more than road accident deaths" or "nobody over 60 gets a respirator") to shake people into understanding that a severe problem exists, even though the trending could have predicted that way earlier.

You can tell I'm not too happy about the proliferation of these "perspectives" because they tend to minimize the problem and the urgency required to address it, and that means people are less likely to take the problem seriously and do what's required of them: https://staythefuckhome.com/

 

[GregCA]

Tactical: "For a bit of perspective, Coronavirus deaths are less than 1/10th those of the 2018-2019 flu"
Strategic: "For a bit of perspective, in less than 2 weeks, the Coronavirus deaths will surpass those of the 2018-2019 flu"

Both are correct. Which one is useful and actionable?

 

[linearb]

The growing pandemic has tested paramedics physically and mentally, said Anthony Almojera, an E.M.S. lieutenant for the Fire Department who said he cried on the job for the first time in his 17-year career.

He and his team had responded to a cardiac arrest dispatch for a middle-age woman, a health care worker, who had been infected. When paramedics arrived at her home, the woman's husband, who was also a health care worker, said she had been sick for five days.

The husband frantically explained that he had tried to stay home and tend to his ill wife, but his employer had asked him to work because their facility was overrun with coronavirus patients.

Grudgingly, the man told the medics, he went to work. When he returned home after his shift that day, he found her unconscious in their bed. For 35 minutes, Mr. Almojera's team tried to revive the woman, but she could not be saved.

Usually, Mr. Almojera said, he tries to console family members who have lost a loved one by putting his arm around them or giving them a hug.

But because the husband was also thought to be infected with the coronavirus, Mr. Almojera delivered the bad news from six feet away. He watched the man pound on his car with his fist and then crumble to the ground.

"I'm sitting there, beside myself, and I can't do anything except be at this distance with him," Mr. Almojera said. "So, we left him."

Cool and normal things that happen in NYC every flu season, right?

Oh, all the "just a flu" people have mysteriously gone absent or silent? Shocking

https://t.co/598ZmNU2n5

Notice that a lot of the critical cases we're hearing about are healthcare workers, who likely got a ton of exposure. AVOID CONTACT WITH PEOPLE.

 

[Mister Muso]

My wife and I have had coronavirus symptoms. Pretty mild - only a slight cough and occasional hot flushes, gritty eyes and exhaustion - but the main symptom was an extremely heavy feeling in the chest, like having a breastplate of iron pulling you down. There was also an extreme immune response, where the glands in then next swell up, a bit like when I had the mumps. It was exhausting for a few days, but we're both on the mend. I was only off work for a few days, but my wife for two weeks.

My tinnitus was louder during this period, but not the worst it's been, and nothing I didn't know how to handle.

We've not been tested, but my wife is a doctor and not prone to flights of fancy over medical matters. She's convinced it was the coronavirus.

It's probably helped me fight it off, given that I've been loading up with vitamins and supplements for months due to my tinnitus.

 

[Lane]

You can tell I'm not too happy about the proliferation of these "perspectives" because they tend to minimize the problem and the urgency required to address it

@GregCA -- Well, my post certainly wasn't meant to irritate anybody, and my apologies to those where that was the case. It also wasn't with the intent to minimize the problem or the the necessity to address it. I was thinking more along the lines of what @all to gain had to say, about "the grand scheme of things". In other words, people die.

Another perspective (if I may), the average age of the 10,000+ plus who've died in Italy is 81. Again for perspective, apparently the top three "contributing factors" to coronavirus deaths are: 1) Having diabetes or pre-diabetes; 2) Obesity; and 3) Smoking. These three factors are to a large degree under our own control. Eliminate the deaths from these factors, and the death rate would be much lower. If you factor in the seemingly huge number of people who've contracted the virus but have never been tested, the death rate likely goes much, much lower.

I often consider the large number of protective measures a person can take. They are numerous, but a top one for me, is taking ample amount of Vitamin C, which has been demonstrated for decades to be highly effective against viral infections (my apologies to those who think I'm flogging a dead horse ). It's truly beyond me that health authorities (and regular people) around the world aren't incorporating this more into their prevention and treatment regimens. Because if they did, I'm convinced the death rate would be much, much, much lower. Maybe there should be a website with the title along the lines of, "wakethe****up". Or perhaps, "timetothinkoutsidethebox".

I think a lot these days about the enormous damage being done to the the world economy by some of the measures that are being instituted, and often think more consideration should be given to the devastation they're bringing into so many lives. Suicide rates are spiking, and a whole lot of other factors are coming into play that threaten many people's lives. I myself am almost certainly taking more measures than average when it comes to self-quarantine, avoiding unnecessary risks, and incorporating many preventative measures. But there has to be a balance. What that is, I don't really know, but I don't think anybody else does either. Too many moving parts as they say.
-
I thought this 1 1/2 minute video was great...
"Stayin' Inside" - Corona Virus Bee Gees Parody 368,876 views • Mar 22, 2020

BTW, A good friend of mine has gotten into the habit of immediately taking his clothes off when he gets home, and throwing them in the dryer at high temperature for about 10 minutes. Makes a whole lot of sense to me. I'd sure like to see a lot more these kinds of common sense recommendations being made by public health officials.

One recommendation in particular I'd like to see is that people get into the habit of "sanitizing their sinuses" as soon as they get home. The coronavirus apparently resides in the sinuses (where it's most vulnerable) anywhere from 2-3 days to 2-3 weeks before migrating to the lungs. There are different ways this sanitizing can be done.

 

[HeavyMantra]

One recommendation in particular I'd like to see is that people get into the habit of "sanitizing their sinuses" as soon as they get home. The coronavirus apparently resides in the sinuses (where it's most vulnerable) anywhere from 2-3 days to 2-3 weeks before migrating to the lungs. There are different ways this sanitizing can be done.

If this is true I want to thank you, great tip

 

[Michael B]

 

[jimH]

This might have already been suggested. I've only read about half of the pages in this thread.

I use the self-checkout machines in the supermarkets a much as possible. Using a cashier who has been less than six feet away from MANY people every workday increases one's level of risk.

- I thereby eliminate handling money that they have just handled.
- eliminate inhaling some of their breath that they just exhaled.
- eliminate being in close proximity to them to also protect myself from a sudden cough or sneeze from them.

The other side of the coin is that it protects them from me should I have the virus and don't know it because I'm asymptomatic.

Yes, I still have to touch the screens of the checkout machine and handle the change. That's why I carry a small bottle of hand sanitizer and use it immediately after I'm finished. I'm careful not to touch my eyes, nose or mouth. As soon as I get home I thoroughly wash my hands for about 1/2 a minute.

One thing all of the experts seem to agree on is that this virus is incredibly contagious. Much more so that the usual seasonal flu strains that we have to deal with every year.

 

[valeri]

Not only a community spirit but great team work worth mentioning!

Our lovely member and my friend @OnceUponaTime and her girls have been tirelessly sawing masks for New York hospitals!

That's our girl people!