Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

[Bill Bauer]

 

[shasta0863]

So as I've been following this, it does seem to be the case thus for that tinnitus is not a "main" symptom of COVID-19, but it CAN be for the group being categorized as "long haulers". That is, people who are months past their initial infection and sickness, still having a plethora of symptoms. Tinnitus being one of them I've seen in a few of the cases that were publicly documented like here.

She claims: The CDC is starting to acknowledge us & the #LongCovid numbers are high: 35% of people are not back to normal after the suggested 'recovery' period. Given the US's current cases of 4.2 million, that's 1,470,000 long haulers in the US alone. So, I'd be really curious if that is true, what percentage of long haulers are exhibiting tinnitus and other neurological issues.

COVID-19 certainly seems capable of going beyond normal "CDC" listed symptoms, and attacking the ear seems to be one of them. Beyond the anecdotal personal accounts, the following link quoted an autopsy report from JAMA Otolaryngology-Head & Neck Surgery that showed COVID-19 in the mastoid and inner ear. Halfway down here.

Very odd to me that COVID-19 seems to be so all over the place. Many with no symptoms, many with mild issues, fast recovery, normal recovery, then those who are hit hard for not apparent reason. Months after having loads of prolonged issue.

Is it because of the multitude of different strains? That's the only thing that makes sense to me, and perhaps the strain is more likely to attack the nervous system and other areas of the body.

I'd really like to see for these supposed over a million people who were categorized as "not back to normal" bracket, aka long haulers, what percentage of them have ear issues. Could be really telling, but that's information I doubt we will see anytime soon.

Seems to be Russian roulette if it's strain based, and as per usual, it's obviously best for us NOT to get it. Which is why I want to see herd immunity and more people getting it and getting over it, because the risk level long term for those classified as vulnerable are going to be much better protected when they need to go out.

 

[FGG]

So as I've been following this, it does seem to be the case thus for that tinnitus is not a "main" symptom of COVID-19, but it CAN be for the group being categorized as "long haulers". That is, people who are months past their initial infection and sickness, still having a plethora of symptoms. Tinnitus being one of them I've seen in a few of the cases that were publicly documented like here.

She claims: The CDC is starting to acknowledge us & the #LongCovid numbers are high: 35% of people are not back to normal after the suggested 'recovery' period. Given the US's current cases of 4.2 million, that's 1,470,000 long haulers in the US alone. So, I'd be really curious if that is true, what percentage of long haulers are exhibiting tinnitus and other neurological issues.

COVID-19 certainly seems capable of going beyond normal "CDC" listed symptoms, and attacking the ear seems to be one of them. Beyond the anecdotal personal accounts, the following link quoted an autopsy report from JAMA Otolaryngology-Head & Neck Surgery that showed COVID-19 in the mastoid and inner ear. Halfway down here.

Very odd to me that COVID-19 seems to be so all over the place. Many with no symptoms, many with mild issues, fast recovery, normal recovery, then those who are hit hard for not apparent reason. Months after having loads of prolonged issue.

Is it because of the multitude of different strains? That's the only thing that makes sense to me, and perhaps the strain is more likely to attack the nervous system and other areas of the body.

I'd really like to see for these supposed over a million people who were categorized as "not back to normal" bracket, aka long haulers, what percentage of them have ear issues. Could be really telling, but that's information I doubt we will see anytime soon.

Seems to be Russian roulette if it's strain based, and as per usual, it's obviously best for us NOT to get it. Which is why I want to see herd immunity and more people getting it and getting over it, because the risk level long term for those classified as vulnerable are going to be much better protected when they need to go out.

There seems to be a genetic link. In fact, the ACE2 receptor (binding site for COVID-19) is an X-linked gene, which may explain the gender differences in severity of disease since men only have one copy and thus more potential to only have the more susceptible alleles.

 

[PeteJ]

There probably is, but I've not looked into it. I simply don't trust the information here.

Is Putin gonna take the vaccine?

 

[PeteJ]

Well, I now know another person who has had coronavirus. Lives in the same building as us.

I was talking to his wife today, and she says that she knows loads of people who have had it, yet the official statistics don't show it.

Loads of people? Lol. It's good you can trust people there.

 

[all to gain]

Is Putin gonna take the vaccine?

He reckons one of his daughters already has. I doubt he will. He will test it on the masses first.

Loads of people? Lol. It's good you can trust people there.

I don't trust anybody anymore. But some people are more believable than others, let's just put it like that. Plus, knowing the mentality here, there will be loads more people who've died from it.

 

[Jack Straw]

So as I've been following this, it does seem to be the case thus for that tinnitus is not a "main" symptom of COVID-19, but it CAN be for the group being categorized as "long haulers". That is, people who are months past their initial infection and sickness, still having a plethora of symptoms. Tinnitus being one of them I've seen in a few of the cases that were publicly documented like here.

She claims: The CDC is starting to acknowledge us & the #LongCovid numbers are high: 35% of people are not back to normal after the suggested 'recovery' period. Given the US's current cases of 4.2 million, that's 1,470,000 long haulers in the US alone. So, I'd be really curious if that is true, what percentage of long haulers are exhibiting tinnitus and other neurological issues.

COVID-19 certainly seems capable of going beyond normal "CDC" listed symptoms, and attacking the ear seems to be one of them. Beyond the anecdotal personal accounts, the following link quoted an autopsy report from JAMA Otolaryngology-Head & Neck Surgery that showed COVID-19 in the mastoid and inner ear. Halfway down here.

Very odd to me that COVID-19 seems to be so all over the place. Many with no symptoms, many with mild issues, fast recovery, normal recovery, then those who are hit hard for not apparent reason. Months after having loads of prolonged issue.

Is it because of the multitude of different strains? That's the only thing that makes sense to me, and perhaps the strain is more likely to attack the nervous system and other areas of the body.

I'd really like to see for these supposed over a million people who were categorized as "not back to normal" bracket, aka long haulers, what percentage of them have ear issues. Could be really telling, but that's information I doubt we will see anytime soon.

Seems to be Russian roulette if it's strain based, and as per usual, it's obviously best for us NOT to get it. Which is why I want to see herd immunity and more people getting it and getting over it, because the risk level long term for those classified as vulnerable are going to be much better protected when they need to go out.

Yeah this whole thing seems like a shit show tbh. No one has direct answers especially for long haulers.

 

[Bill Bauer]

This settles it, right?

 

[linearb]

"Comorbid conditions" is being used as a fig leaf.

Let's think about a 60 year old diabetic with a BMI of 33. This describes a lot of people in America. This describes someone who is clearly not in "good health". It probably describes the parents of many posters here, or perhaps some posters ourselves.

This describes someone who, despite not being in "good health", if they eat a good diet and get even very light exercise every day, has a life expectancy of 86 years, or another 26 years from today.

This describes someone who would have moderately increased influenza fatality risk; it's hard to pin down exactly, but the stats I am seeing lead me to believe it would be no more than double the flu morality for someone in this group, which would be 0.12%. Let's assume I am off by a factor of 4 and call this 0.48% just to really pad the numbers away from making COVID-19 seem really scary.

Someone in that demographic just based on age, already has a 1.4% chance or higher of death from infection. However, COVID-19 does insanely bizarre and destructive vascular things, which means that a number of comorbidities related to blood and weight, dramatically uptick your risk odds. Again it is hard to put exact numbers on things, but early data indicate that both diabetes and BMI > 30 likely double risks or more, so now we're at 5.6%.

A study from the EU found 10% mortality among hospital-admitted COVID-19 patients with diabetes, which was much higher than their overall stat at that facility.

Why is this important? Because it means that "comorbidities that make COVID-19 more dangerous" can easily shave 33% of the years off your life.

Let's think about the American population a little bit:

Only 6 percent of the Chinese population is obese, compared with 20 percent of the population in Italy and 24 percent in Spain. The United States, by contrast, has one of the highest rates of obesity in the world.

Some 42 percent of American adults have a body mass index of 30 or more, which classifies them as having obesity, and 9 percent have a B.M.I. of 40 or more. (Someone who is 5'9'' tall and weighs 270 pounds or more has a BMI of 40, according to federal guidelines.) An individual of that height at 304 pounds has a B.M.I. of 45.

If we're looking at a disease which disproportionately kills people with high BMI and/or diabetes, guess what, the US is absolutely packed to the gills with that demographic.

"Dying with COVID-19, NOT OF COVID-19" is the new "humans aren't really contributing much to climate change". It's an untrue political football being used to try to cook up a half-assed economic recovery that's not going to work as long as huge numbers of people remain totally disinterested in having anything to do with service economy interactions (restaurants, bars, etc) -- and as long as the school situation here is being handled this badly, with rolling lockdowns and quarantines and shutdowns already having happened in the few short weeks that a small subset of US schools have been open -- again, this hinders economic recovery because lots of people lucky enough to still have jobs also have kids.

If we'd just had good messaging from the very beginning and a federal apparatus that had said "this is gonna be painful and bad but we'll get through it together and if everyone wears cloth masks in public we're going to be able to beat it a lot faster", we'd be in a totally different situation where schools might be more possible, etc. But, we didn't do that, and it does not help that police brutality crossed some critical crack points over the same time period and now we're feeling the ping from that along with the rest of all this.

 

[linearb]

Full on death cult. Not only is "2.13 million" unacceptable, it overlooks the many more people who won't die but will have permanent damage or shortened lives as a result, and also assumes that people who get sick and recover have long-term immunity which is not something we're going to know definitively for another year or two.

If American, protect yourselves, folks, especially if you're over the age of 40, have regular contact with people who are, or are overweight or have any number of other conditions. You have to look out for yourselves and your communities here because the signaling is very clear that your government, at the highest level, is willing to sacrifice millions of us rather than adopt the science-based and evidence tested approaches seen other places.

 

[Bill Bauer]

is the new "humans aren't really contributing much to climate change"

Ok, so now I know not to take anything you say seriously.

I am still curious about your take on the daily deaths in Sweden?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

 

[Tanni]

Ok, so now I know not to take anything you say seriously.

I am still curious about your take on the daily deaths in Sweden?
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

 

[linearb]

At this point I just don't feel any desire to engage with people that I believe are fundamentally wrong about the science behind COVID (or the climate), for the same reason I don't get into arguments with people of differing religions about their deities. I don't think there's any fact-based information which can be exchanged in either direction that's going to be novel, change an opinion, or cause someone to examine their deeply held beliefs, so why bother when I could be playing video games?

I dated a catholic girl once. I changed her views on premarital sex, but not God. The relationship was doomed from the start, but the sex and somewhat temporary companionship was worth it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I don't get into arguments with people of differing religions about their deities

You are a member of a cult, and I don't have any experience deprogramming cult members.

In any case, perhaps one should beware of COVID-19 after all.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

The second sentence has "I am still curious" in it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Full on death cult. Not only is "2.13 million" unacceptable, it overlooks the many more people who won't die but will have permanent damage or shortened lives as a result, and also assumes that people who get sick and recover have long-term immunity which is not something we're going to know definitively for another year or two.

Let's see how accurate the above is.

Sweden has clearly reached herd immunity, as evidenced by their daily deaths graph
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Sweden has had 5,808 deaths. Their population is 10.23 million. US population is 328 million. The number of deaths in the US to reach a herd immunity is (5808)*328/20.23 = 186,333. So about 200,000. This is close to the current US death total, but unfortunately many of those deaths were due to seniors being murdered by the government officials who forced nursing homes to house COVID-19 patients.

In any case, the interesting thing here is the enormity of the lie - a ten fold overestimation of the actual figure. Food for thought.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Let's see how accurate the above is.

Sweden has clearly reached herd immunity, as evidenced by their daily deaths graph
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

Sweden has had 5,808 deaths. Their population is 10.23 million. US population is 328 million. The number of deaths in the US to reach a herd immunity is (5808)*328/20.23 = 186,333. So about 200,000. This is close to the current US death total, but unfortunately many of those deaths were due to seniors being murdered by the government officials who forced nursing homes to house COVID-19 patients.

In any case, the interesting thing here is the enormity of the lie - a ten fold overestimation of the actual figure. Food for thought.

Hi Bill,

it will be interesting to see how long immunity lasts and how this all plays out. Draconian measures in the form of lock downs aren't realistically feasible in "democratic" countries in Europe and north and south America. The citizens won't stand for it. Mask wearing, which shouldn't have been such an issue, is. For these reasons my statement a few months ago "Swedish meatballs for everyone" wasn't understood as I intended... It was not meant as an avocation of a policy but an acceptance of the reality at hand. I really don't know enough about virology to make policy decisions, I defer to scientists. It seems once the virus established itself in Europe and the United States there really was no option but the Swedish approach as the public wouldn't have it any other way. Either the latter or the South Korean approach of testing and contact tracing, which has to have the government and national support to work.

I don't think Doctor Fauci and many virologists and epidemiologists have been lying or part of a sinister plot... I think he was being a good epidemiologist and exercising caution about a new virus we knew little about and apparently still don't items of length of immunity, long term effects on the body, etc...

 

[Bill Bauer]

I really don't know enough about virology to make policy decisions, I defer to scientists.

The scientists often make recommendations with the goal of minimizing COVID-19 fatalities. Those recommendations don't take into the account the fatalities due to the economic cost of the recommendation (if the money were to be used for, say, research or to build a new hospital, etc., a certain number of lives could have been saved). Sometimes the recommendations don't even take into account the fatalities due to the recommendations (e.g., fatalities due to postponed surgeries and screening tests) (!!!)

As a result, by focusing on only COVID-19 fatalities, those recommendations don't seem to be minimizing the Total number of fatalities...

I don't think Doctor Fauci and many virologists and epidemiologists have been lying or part of a sinister plot... I think he was being a good epidemiologist and exercising caution about a new virus we knew little about and apparently still don't items of length of immunity, long term effects on the body, etc...

I don't know What to think!

Note how now that it is clear that the hospitals won't get overwhelmed (the Original reason for the lockdowns), nobody talks about that anymore, and yet we still have lockdowns...

 

[Daniel Lion]

The scientists often make recommendations with the goal of minimizing COVID-19 fatalities. Those recommendations don't take into the account the fatalities due to the economic cost of the recommendation (if the money were to be used for, say, research or to build a new hospital, etc., a certain number of lives could have been saved). Sometimes the recommendations don't even take into account the fatalities due to the recommendations (e.g., fatalities due to postponed surgeries and screening tests) (!!!)

As a result, by focusing on only COVID-19 fatalities, those recommendations don't seem to be minimizing the Total number of fatalities...

I don't know What to think!

Note how now that it is clear that the hospitals won't get overwhelmed (the Original reason for the lockdowns), nobody talks about that anymore, and yet we still have lockdowns...

I agree with many of your points such as - "Note how now that it is clear that the hospitals won't get overwhelmed (the original reason for the lockdowns), nobody talks about that anymore, and yet we still have lockdowns"... It is probably more nuanced and people could argue that the elderly and sick are better protected... but in Europe, and say the USA despite the growing number of cases the hospitals don't appear to be overwhelmed and the fatalities seam way down. Why is that? Perhaps somebody on this thread could chime in on this point with a different perspective or information? Address me if they like.

I tried talking to my Mom about it, who is an Epidemiologist but it was hard for us to talk about as she feels the Trump administration screwed everything up and she has never liked him generally. We changed subjects and talked about her grandkids and happier things.

I honestly don't know what to think. I get pushed and pulled to the South Korean containment approach and the Swedish approach. Learning to effectively do the S.Korean containment and contact tracing system is in every nations interest for a more deadly pandemic you would think?

Saying it will go away in spring, not setting a good example about masks, and touting unproven approaches wasn't a good call by the President, it shows a lack of intellectual vigor and capacity. I am not sure of the ramifications of pulling out of the vaccine coalition that 170 countries are part of, but not the US now?

Remember, I live under China, literally. When this unfolded I was hugely disappointed in China's initial corrupt response (silencing doctors and not informing the world) and I was equally disappointed in how long the freaking WHO took to call it a pandemic and for borders to start to close. Would a lot of these measures made any difference? Potentially yes in a big way, if there really were quality pandemic alert responses by the WHO and international governments. The United States looked like a shambles compared to Korea. And Sweden looked calm and cool in the face of what appeared to be a huge gamble.

@linearb once mentioned, as I recall, that a scientist friend of his was saying that the COVID-19 response was like a test for the next pandemic which could be many times more lethal.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Saying it will go away in spring,

But it DID begin going away in April/May = Spring, as evidenced by the daily deaths graph on
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
and now we know why it bounced back later on in the summer, something nobody knew in the early Spring. Right?

not setting a good example about masks

There might be something to that. On the other hand his job isn't to be a role model for the public. I certainly couldn't care less whether our Prime Minister is wearing a mask or not. What he would end up doing would have zero impact on my decision on whether or not to wear a mask.

Wait a second, I am old enough to remember the CDC telling the public not to wear masks, as the masks provide a false sense of security. Wouldn't you think that THAT would be more influential in making an impact on the fraction of the population who chose to wear a mask?!

Learning to effectively do the S.Korean containment and contact tracing system is in every nations interest for a more deadly pandemic you would think?

I also expected our officials to do just that.

Have you seen that John Travolta 2000 movie "Lucky Numbers"? It wasn't a good movie, but it had a scene that I still remember all of those years later (and unfortunately I couldn't find it on YouTube). The protagonist used a third party to hire someone he didn't know to pretend to rob his store, so that he could file a fraudulent insurance claim. What he had in mind were guys wearing suits using a tool with a diamond-tipped cutter to make a neat circular opening in his window to gain entrance. What he Got were some thugs who used a baseball bat to smash the windows. So this was somewhat like that...

 

[Daniel Lion]

@Bill Bauer
I appreciate your feedback. I'll write you soon when the muse calls. I just deleted everything I wrote.

 

[linearb]

Iin Europe, and say the USA despite the growing number of cases the hospitals don't appear to be overwhelmed and the fatalities seam way down. Why is that? Perhaps somebody on this thread could chime in on this point with a different perspective or information? Address me if they like.

There's multiple factors at work. Hospitals have been overwhelmed in some places and several places are still near ICU capacity.

The thing is, a relatively small percentage of the US has been exposed to this. So, as case counts increase, there may be regional resource starvation issues.

Cases are still low where I am, and mask use and distancing are relatively high. This is not a coincidence.

"Note how now that it is clear that the hospitals won't get overwhelmed (the original reason for the lockdowns), nobody talks about that anymore, and yet we still have lockdowns"..

This is still a concern. Nothing has materially changed about the virus, and we've reliably seen outbreaks and cases following large events (RIP Herman Cain). We also don't really have "lockdowns", different states have different degrees of what's open or not, but what I see locally is that people are, by and large, being much more conservative than what's actually allowed legally, because I live someplace with a relatively aged population.

I tried talking to my Mom about it, who is an Epidemiologist but it was hard for us to talk about as she feels the Trump administration screwed everything up and she has never liked him generally. We changed subjects and talked about her grandkids and happier things.

I honestly don't know what to think. I get pushed and pulled to the South Korean containment approach and the Swedish approach. Learning to effectively do the S.Korean containment and contact tracing system is in every nations interest for a more deadly pandemic you would think?

Saying it will go away in spring, not setting a good example about masks, and touting unproven approaches wasn't a good call by the President, it shows a lack of intellectual vigor and capacity. I am not sure of the ramifications of pulling out of the vaccine coalition that 170 countries are part of, but not the US now?

Yes, 100%. I see no conspiratorial stuff behind any of this, I just don't think the Trump admin was remotely up to the task of handling this situation. I am not making an opinion about whether some other admin could have or would have done thing X or Y differently; that's not the world we're in. This administration has badly mismanaged this situation, and now we have to deal with the ramifications of that.

Remember, I live under China, literally. When this unfolded I was hugely disappointed in China's initial corrupt response (silencing doctors and not informing the world)

A friend in Bejing told me a lot of people he knows there believe that COVID was a US engineered virus that was delivered to China as a weapon. Can you speak to the veracity of that propaganda? Of course I don't believe this is true but I am curious if it's a common conception (just like many in the US think it is a "Chinese bioweapon").

@linearb once mentioned, as I recall, that a scientist friend of his was saying that the COVID-19 response was like a test for the next pandemic which could be many times more lethal.

Yes. I think what is breaking people's brains about this, is the slow burn. It's not 100x as deadly as the flu, it's not Captain Trips, but if it's allowed to just rampage through the population it will kill a lot of people. Yes, many of these people may be "elderly" or have diabetes -- but as I showed above with data, if a 60 year old overweight diabetic in general has a 26 year life expectancy, but also has a ~15% chance of dying from COVID, that's dramatic, that describes a large population of people and taking 26 years off their lives is not "people who were about to die anyway".

On the other hand, the US is huge, so this could actually kill 2 million people and it wouldn't change the minds of people who still aren't looking at this through an objective lens.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Hospitals have been overwhelmed in some places and several places are still near ICU capacity.

Yes, this is normal. In "some places" in the US in 2019 hospitals had also been overwhelmed at random times, and in several places that year ICU's had been near their capacity.

This administration has badly mismanaged this situation

How? They banned travel from China back in January. Or are you talking about the administration of the states that forced COVID-19 patients to be housed in nursing homes?

I love it how you haven't addressed me pointing out that the source you cited has overestimated the thread ten fold.

I just deleted everything I wrote.

Too bad.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Do you guys in the UK still have your mandatory clap session for the NHS?

 

[Bill Bauer]

This reminds me of the authorities' response to COVID-19:

Link

 

[Daniel Lion]

There's multiple factors at work. Hospitals have been overwhelmed in some places and several places are still near ICU capacity.

The thing is, a relatively small percentage of the US has been exposed to this. So, as case counts increase, there may be regional resource starvation issues.

Cases are still low where I am, and mask use and distancing are relatively high. This is not a coincidence.

This is still a concern. Nothing has materially changed about the virus, and we've reliably seen outbreaks and cases following large events (RIP Herman Cain). We also don't really have "lockdowns", different states have different degrees of what's open or not, but what I see locally is that people are, by and large, being much more conservative than what's actually allowed legally, because I live someplace with a relatively aged population.

I tried talking to my Mom about it, who is an Epidemiologist but it was hard for us to talk about as she feels the Trump administration screwed everything up and she has never liked him generally. We changed subjects and talked about her grandkids and happier things.

I honestly don't know what to think. I get pushed and pulled to the South Korean containment approach and the Swedish approach. Learning to effectively do the S.Korean containment and contact tracing system is in every nations interest for a more deadly pandemic you would think?

Yes, 100%. I see no conspiratorial stuff behind any of this, I just don't think the Trump admin was remotely up to the task of handling this situation. I am not making an opinion about whether some other admin could have or would have done thing X or Y differently; that's not the world we're in. This administration has badly mismanaged this situation, and now we have to deal with the ramifications of that.

A friend in Bejing told me a lot of people he knows there believe that COVID was a US engineered virus that was delivered to China as a weapon. Can you speak to the veracity of that propaganda? Of course I don't believe this is true but I am curious if it's a common conception (just like many in the US think it is a "Chinese bioweapon").

Yes. I think what is breaking people's brains about this, is the slow burn. It's not 100x as deadly as the flu, it's not Captain Trips, but if it's allowed to just rampage through the population it will kill a lot of people. Yes, many of these people may be "elderly" or have diabetes -- but as I showed above with data, if a 60 year old overweight diabetic in general has a 26 year life expectancy, but also has a ~15% chance of dying from COVID, that's dramatic, that describes a large population of people and taking 26 years off their lives is not "people who were about to die anyway".

On the other hand, the US is huge, so this could actually kill 2 million people and it wouldn't change the minds of people who still aren't looking at this through an objective lens.

Hi @linearb,

Super nice to hear from you. I actually wanted to correspond with you in another thread where you wrote something a long time ago that was very profound and resonated with me, in a good way. I will catch you over on the other thread soon.

The Chinese propaganda is not overbearing, actually doesn't make the news here. When the pandemic started there were planes that brought in supplies and experts and there were photo shoots and the expected statements of gratitude and working together. The locals know who the superpowers are and carry on with giving alms to monks and their normal life. China and America are very similar. I have lived with or around Chinese for nearly 2 decades now. I was amazed by our commonality when I first arrived. The first thing that is striking is the lust for money and consumption and being overworked to keep up with the latter, it's like Nietzsche's god is dead, and replaced with hard cash. Many Chinese are susceptible to nationalist propaganda weather it's the Olympics or foreign policy endeavours, wars, same on both sides, like folks chanting USA at the Olympics or gulf wars. Lots of citizens would be considered crass, be it the stereotypical fat American, like the president, chewing on McDonald's or a bus load of Chinese going to eat Chinese food in a foreign country and not trying local food. Both countries have a history of literacy, art, and the few Chinese friends I have had understand sarcasm, irony, political satire, and self deprecating humour. The Lao people's humour and general vibe is completely different. Chinese here will get pissed of and yell like at home, the locals don't. Thought you might find that interesting, some observations, thanks for indulging my digression.

I was talking to my cousin back in the United States today, I mentioned we are still COVID-19 free here. She said how it's interesting that dictatorships or countries that can enforce draconian measures have done pretty well with the virus. It become pretty clear that with health issues and future pandemics, that democracies will struggle as civil liberties and personal freedoms can run up against or counter to the "national good" e.g. wearing masks and taking it easy generally on social events...

Here things revolve around the Buddhist calendar, so usually at the end of Buddhist lent there is boat racing festival, coming soon it's a huge affair that takes place all over the country. Lots of drinking, cheering, crowds and activities for the family. That will not happen this year and the wedding season will be super toned down as well. The government is playing it safe. Life is super chill here, virus free, and my kids are back in school with out masks and the accompanying neurosis and fear. I promised my mom and myself i wont advocate any policy as I am fortunate to be in a virus free zone and I worry and have empathy for you and your family, my mom and extended family in Europe and the United States and of course friends on and off the forum. Keeping my prayers with you guys, I know it sucks. At least you're in a good location and have the outdoors, lockdowns in a big city is just hellish.

@Bill Bauer, I invite you to a more relaxed discussion, not a debate. I don't want argue if the virus "has gone away" in the US when it hasn't. I'd rather talk about the following, not so much a debate, but a relaxed conversation. The world has panned out to being countries that have the virus within their borders and are just letting it run its course, Brazil, Spain, can I say the USA. Then their are other countries like Laos, New Zealand, China, who have it in check and don't want it running around their country. Two very different realities and how trade and travel will be conducted. It will be interesting how everything pans out since the world is so interdependent and small.

Lane, Bill Bauer, linearb, I thought you may appreciate that I built a steam bath. I have always had streams, for decades now. When we were locked down and I couldn't steam, I decided to build my own. I was always going to do it, but it pushed me. Herbal steams with different aromatic leaves is something the locals do here and myself. I thought Mr. Lane would appreciate that. It's wood fired and pretty cool, I'll post some photos eventually.

Another cool thing, the only cool thing about COVID-19, was millions of people could see mountains and views from their cities across the globe they had never seen before. Air travel and pollution was slowed way down for about 8 weeks, dolphins could be seen in Venice, animals came out of hiding, it was an amazing moment. Now gone and sadly forgotten of what are planet could be if humans changed their behaviour and relationship to consumption and earth.

I have stated my feelings about what I thought the US administration could have done better and don't want to rehash that. Any administration in parts of Europe, the UK and USA is not going to have full support on measures to combat the virus. It is what it is.

Look forward to hearing from you all. How's it going in your local?

 

[all to gain]

Do you guys in the UK still have your mandatory clap session for the NHS?

It seems to have stopped 2 months ago.

As a one off it was ok, but after that it got a bit grating.

Still, better than being thrown from a balcony or out a window.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The first thing that is striking is the lust for money and consumption and being overworked to keep up with the latter, it's like Nietzsche's god is dead, and replaced with hard cash.

Money = contribution to society. So yes, when people have incentives to contribute to society, and work to contribute to society, you end up with a powerful civilization. Conversely when people don't care about money (using the terms interchangeably here), they won't be able to build much of a civilization.

By the way, the Chinese culture is also close to the Russian culture.

chewing on McDonald's or a bus load of Chinese going to eat Chinese food in a foreign country and not trying local food

I never understood the concept of eating local food. If turns out to be bad, there was no reason to eat it. If you like it, then you will miss it and won't be able to have it after your trip is over. The suffering (LOL, I know this sounds funny, but that has Actually been my experience!) will last a lot longer than the few minutes the food spends in your mouth. So again - eating it was a bad idea. When I travel I shop at the local supermarkets where I buy fruits and vegetables.

The Lao people's humour ... is completely different.

I know this will might not be easy to answer, but how is it different?

@Bill Bauer, I invite you to a more relaxed discussion, not a debate.

All of my posts are me attempting a relaxed discussion. The time for debates has passed. The war had already been lost decades ago. The outcome of any of the current battles won't change that. (Of course I am not talking about this forum, I am talking about society at large and the issues that it generates that could be discussed/debated.) So this is closer to "lying wide awake in your bed at 4 in the morning, listening to tinnitus and muttering new arguments in a debate that you've had 25 years ago with a person who has been dead for 20 years" - a lot of fun, but pointless, meaningless, and depressing.
(For the benefit of Russian speakers, the analogy above was inspired by the following lines in one of Дольский's songs: "И о правде, и о чести, в темноту бормочешь речи"/"And about the truth, and about honour, you mutter speeches into the darkness".)

I don't want argue if the virus "has gone away" in the US when it hasn't.

I never said it went away. I said that the authorities had overreacted.

It will be interesting how everything pans out since the world is so interdependent and small.

Yes, it will be interesting how it pans out.

I built a steam bath.

Neat - it sounds like you will be able to have a great time relaxing there. Before I got tinnitus, I was dreaming of spending time in a sensory deprivation tank. I don't think I would enjoy it now.

Now gone and sadly forgotten of what are planet could be if humans changed their behaviour and relationship to consumption and earth.

Everything has a cost. The downside of our technology is pollution. We could live in poverty and enjoy a clean environment. Most people would not choose that.

How's it going in your local?

This summer the air has been visibly cleaner/clearer around here.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Hey, liked your post.

All of my posts are me attempting a relaxed discussion. The time for debates has passed. The war had already been lost decades ago. The outcome of any of the current battles won't change that. (Of course I am not talking about this forum, I am talking about society at large and the issues that it generates that could be discussed/debated.) So this is closer to "lying wide awake in your bed at 4 in the morning, listening to tinnitus and muttering new arguments in a debate that you've had 25 years ago with a person who has been dead for 20 years" - a lot of fun, but pointless, meaningless, and depressing.
(For the benefit of Russian speakers, the analogy above was inspired by the following lines in one of Дольский's songs: "И о правде, и о чести, в темноту бормочешь речи"/"And about the truth, and about honour, you mutter speeches into the darkness".)

Agreed, well said.

Money = contribution to society. So yes, when people have incentives to contribute to society, and work to contribute to society, you end up with a powerful civilization. Conversely when people don't care about money (using the terms interchangeably here), they won't be able to build much of a civilization.

By the way, the Chinese culture is also close to the Russian culture.

It's interesting, in the not so distant past and today societies and localities here were various mountain peoples and bigger societies on the planes where advanced agrarian activity takes place and never really expanded beyond that. Laos is 85 percent mountainous.There are no cathedrals of great craftsmanship and plastic arts of high caliber. The temples that are tourist attractions have a naive (in the western art sense) and pleasing aesthetic. They created a relaxed sustainable existence and didn't embark on what societies usually do in terms of building greatness. It was so different to anything I had ever seen, and that was the attraction. They built an amazing life style that is the antithesis in many ways to the paradigm I grew up with... I could go on more as it's nuanced, but the pace, the culture is really different. They also don't have a tradition of books or literacy, it's an oral tradition and their high arts would be music, story telling, and textiles worn by women, the fabric is beautiful.

Conversely when people don't care about money (using the terms interchangeably here), they won't be able to build much of a civilization.

They didn't indeed build much of a civilisation with all the land marks and checks we are accustomed to, but they built a remarkable life style and ethos of living.

Humour here is really different as is how people express emotions and even touch.
Sarcasm doesn't work here and the concept of "angst" doesn't really exist as far as I know.
The humour in Northern Thailand and Laos tends to be jokes about village life and the various characters you would find in a village. Sex is funny, like everywhere.

And physical kinds of slap stick humour is appreciated. I don't really get it. Most of my foreign friends don't get it either. Not to say I don't laugh with the locals and often my jokes are well received, it's just humour is really different. My wife still doesn't really get sarcasm or self deprecating statements or humour.

I did watch Mel Brooks' Young Frankenstein recently and she thought I looked like Marty Feldman, the hunchback, and pissed herself laughing. I wish could tell you more clearly, I am sorry.

Lao people don't say sorry. If they screw up, they don't really talk about it and wait for it to blow over. They also don't like being lectured or lecturing.
You will see traffic police but never proper police. Villages self police and things are quite libertarian about what you can do. I'll stop now because I'm glossing over things to superficially... just trying to paint some contrasts.

Everything has a cost. The downside of our technology is pollution. We could live in poverty and enjoy a clean environment. Most people would not choose that.

This is true. We do have technologies at our disposal that are clean but the economic incentives and political will is not there yet and may never be. I am very fond of a science fiction movie called Elysium. All the rich have moved off of Earth to a space station that has botanical gardens, waterfalls, and the best medicine and health care technology. Earth is an absolute shit hole, more so than now, and that's where the vast majority live. Great movie and a very realistic vision of the not so distant future. Please check it out.

Neat - it sounds like you will be able to have a great time relaxing there. Before I got tinnitus, I was dreaming of spending time in a sensory deprivation tank. I don't think I would enjoy it now.

Same here, the thought is not appealing now. I must confess that when I sculpt now, I am working on a wood carving, I wear foam earplugs and my Peltor X45 over them. My tinnitus screams, but I get so lost in my work it doesn't bother me all that much, weird. What an awful condition. I saw some of your posts in the Suicidal thread yesterday and give you praise for your kind words to folks in deep shit, it really does mean a lot.

This summer the air has been visibly cleaner/clearer around here.

It's quiet here. Less traffic and no tourists. Restaurants, guest houses and hotels have taken a beating. But the economy and building keeps moving along in large part do to the Chinese who are making this place an extension of their country.

Talk to you soon.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The IFR (ratio of deaths to infected) is estimated to be 0.17%. Compare this to IFR of 0.13% for the flu that we've had two years ago.

Totally worth destroying the economy and sending millions into poverty.