Learn from Others' Mistakes

[Tinker Bell]

Like I wrote earlier, a plane is quieter than an event with live music.

So did
andand

I learned from their mistakes, and I was hoping that so would he.
As I pointed out before, if you begin hitting a wall with a hammer, it takes some time before you see the light on the other side of the wall.


Many of the people I quoted were trying to convey the same message as I was when I quoted them. Take the people I quoted above, for example. They posted here partially so that others could learn from their mistakes.

Obviously you have not been to the same outdoor concerts as I have. Some were quieter than a plane.

And your hammer analogy always cracks me up. What type of hammer are we talking about? My kid has a plastic toy hammer. Hit a brick wall with it as much as you'd like, that wall is not going to give way.

Rather than take the time to copy and paste, perhaps you could take the time to research what you are quoting. The time you have spent on this thread could have been spent looking into the list of background questions I provided.

Simply follow the sources. For example if you did you would see that Mellow7 recently posted that tinnitus was getting worse for no clear reason. But he was dealing with stress. Maybe there are individuals more susceptible to spikes versus others. Maybe stress, anxiety and hyperacusis are factors that can contribute to spikes. Do you know what could help us examine that idea? Actual facts rather than random quotes.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I think a reverse of this thread would be more beneficial. In other words: Learn from others' successes.

Sounds good. If you create a thread like that, I will certainly not try to get it deleted (recall that this is what happened to this thread when I first tried to create it back in April).

And now you see how ridiculous it would be for me to complain about you quoting people who achieved success, saying that {assume that red font = strikethrough font}

Or do you prefer to only share negative positive threads? Many of the members quoted due to spikes later improve get worse. Are these spikes or tinnitus fluctuations? Should we fear what can improve make things worse? How many of your quoted members later improved or returned to their pre-spike tinnitus got worse?

This is why we should look at individual circumstances rather than quotes taken out of context.

 

[Bill Bauer]

And your hammer analogy always cracks me up. What type of hammer are we talking about? My kid has a plastic toy hammer. Hit a brick wall with it as much as you'd like, that wall is not going to give way.

Now try a real hammer.

 

[Ed209]

Sounds good. If you create a thread like that, I will certainly not try to get it deleted (recall that this is what happened to this thread when I first tried to create it back in April).

I would never try and get a thread deleted; it's not my style. I believe in free speech and debate. I've said this many times: just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I'm necessarily right or wrong. I will argue my opinion on something if I see flaws or disagree with the approach. No-one is forced to agree with me any more than they are to agree with you, otherwise it would just be a dictatorship.

 

[Tinker Bell]

I think a reverse of this thread would be more beneficial. In other words: Learn from others' successes.

Isn't that what we all want? We can still talk about the avoidance of dangerous, prolonged noise, for success. In this case it would be better if we could quote people from the real world as well. I think you'll find a huge difference between the way people behave on here, at the height of anxiety, to the way people deal with it who aren't on a support forum.

I agree. Maybe that is why I am rather vocal on this thread. I personally know people with tinnitus. They attend concerts, church, sporting events, and movies; eat at restaurants; shop in crowded stores; and live life similar to how they did prior to tinnitus. No spikes, no hyperacusis . . . and no anxiety to loud noises.

I am guessing Bill has not been compiling a list of those quotes. If he had, he would find that some of his quoted members would appear there too.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Sounds good. If you create a thread like that, I will certainly not try to get it deleted (recall that this is what happened to this thread when I first tried to create it back in April).

And now you see how ridiculous it would be for me to complain about you quoting people who achieved success, saying that {assume that red font = strikethrough font}

Excuse me. Did you seriously alter the text of my quote by adding your negative thoughts? I realize we can do that, but that is not appropriate. Did you do that to any of the members you quoted? If you did it to me, how can we trust that you have not done the same to any other members you quoted?

The side-eye emoji is not big enough.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I am guessing Bill has not been compiling a list of those quotes.

1000 examples of something being safe does not prove that the probability of it being unsafe is zero. One example of something being unsafe proves that the probability of it being unsafe is greater than zero. IMHO, T is so horrible that increasing the chance of making it louder is unacceptable.

 

[Ed209]

I agree. Maybe that is why I am rather vocal on this thread. I personally know people with tinnitus. They attend concerts, church, sporting events, and movies; eat at restaurants; shop in crowded stores; and live life similar to how they did prior to tinnitus. No spikes, no hyperacusis . . . and no anxiety to loud noises.

I am guessing Bill has not been compiling a list of those quotes. If he had, he would find that some of his quoted members would appear there too.

Yea same. And no matter how much I warn them they don't care! It infuriates me They are Bill Bauers' parallel universe equivalents.

 

[AZeurotuner]

didn't go to any restaurants. Most European supermarkets I had a chance to visit didn't have that elevator music playing, so they were nicer than North American supermarkets. My entertainment consisted of visiting museums (they were quieter than I expected them to be). The streets and airports were certainly quieter than venues with live music.

"Live music" could be 80 decibels at a wedding, all the way to 115 plus at a rock concert, much too broad of a term. I'm not suggesting that anyone attend loud concerts, but lower level events should be fine with proper hearing protection. Don't bother posting more quotes because we've already explained why such quotes are not to be taken as proof of hearing damage. Stress, anxiety, and hyperacusis play a major part in spikes, why won't you acknowledge this?

 

[Tinker Bell]

Now try a real hammer.

I have. No luck.

Just like noise, there are many factors to consider. How large is the hammer? How hard are we hitting the wall? What angle are we hitting the wall? What was the wall's age and condition prior to the hammer? Are we hitting the exact same spot? Hitting all day, every day or once a month?

Yea same. And no matter how much I warn them they don't care! It infuriates me They are Bill Bauers' parallel universe equivalents.

The problem is that in order to learn from people IRL, you need to actually interact and socialize with people IRL. That's not something Bill will do.

 

[Bill Bauer]

lower level events should be fine with proper hearing protection

The quotes prove that the above is demonstratively false.

we've already explained why such quotes are not to be taken as proof of hearing damage

I had already provided a rebuttal to every single one of your "arguments."

Stress, anxiety, and hyperacusis play a major part in spikes, why won't you acknowledge this?

I had already addressed the above. More than once, and in this thread.

How large is the hammer? How hard are we hitting the wall? What angle are we hitting the wall? What was the wall's age and condition prior to the hammer? Are we hitting the exact same spot? Hitting all day, every day or once a month?

If one keeps at it, none of the considerations above matter. It might take a long time, but most people will eventually succeed.

 

[AZeurotuner]

1000 examples of something being safe does not prove that the probability of it being unsafe is zero. One example of something being unsafe proves that the probability of it being unsafe is greater than zero. IMHO, T is so horrible that increasing the chance of making it louder is unacceptable.

Wait a second...

was thinking whether or not it was loud enough to warrant leaving. On one hand, I didn't want to take any chances with my tinnitus. On the other hand, I estimated the chance that my T would be negatively affected to be low.

And didn't you do the same thing with the airplane?

 

[Ed209]

1000 examples of something being safe does not prove that the probability of it being unsafe is zero. One example of something being unsafe proves that the probability of it being unsafe is greater than zero. IMHO, T is so horrible that increasing the chance of making it louder is unacceptable.

Nothing is on either extreme of the scale though, Bill. The secret to leading a fulfilling life is to mitigate risk on a rational basis. For example, it would not be healthy to lose sleep, or to become continually anxious, over something that might affect 0.0001% of the population. The real problem in this instance would be the unwanted anxiety that would result from it.

At the same time, if something is likely to be dangerous, say, 10% risk, or higher, than act accordingly. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[Bill Bauer]

For example, it would not be healthy to lose sleep, or to become continually anxious over something that might affect 0.0001% of the population.

My guess is that the risk due to those noises is a lot higher than that, but of course it is impossible to know for sure.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Wait a second...



And didn't you do the same thing with the airplane?

Or every time he travels in a car or walks into a building with a fire alarm. Do as I say not as I do, huh.

 

[Bill Bauer]

he travels in a car or walks into a building with a fire alarm

I wear hearing protection when traveling in my much quieter than average car. I always carry a cloth bag with Peltor muffs when I am inside of buildings that have fire alarms.

And didn't you do the same thing with the airplane?

You have a point (I think this is the first time). But like I said earlier, I have never seen anyone report getting a spike after wearing hearing protection during a flight.

 

[AZeurotuner]

I wear hearing protection when traveling in my much quieter than average car. I always carry a cloth bag with Peltor muffs when I am inside of buildings that have fire alarms.

Luxury car? So what like ten or twelve airbags? Can you guarentee you won't have an accident?

You have a point (I think this is the first time). But like I said earlier, I have never seen anyone report getting a spike after wearing hearing protection during a flight.

What I usually do is put my earplugs in (Elacin ER25) and over that I put my noise-cancelling headphones. This basically blocks most of the sound so I hope I wouldn't have to worry about my T. getting worse (which is my great fear). However, on my flight two days ago from Tokyo-Sydney (where I am now) I found that the "contact" noise, by that I mean the noise coming from the frame of the airplane traveling via my chair, my bones, and eventually ending up in my head seemed quite noisy (more noisy than other flights I have taken in the past). However, there was nothing I could do, I tried different chairs, but to no avail. Now, after my flight, it seems as a result of my plane trip my general T is much noisier, as well as a new medium pitched T has developed in my right ear. I would like to ask you, how dangerous are long haul flights for tinnitus. I tried to block out the Engine sounds as much as I could (I sat in front of the plane, but unfortunately still next to the wing), I have no cold or any other sniffing or infections of my ear, nose etc. But, it seems clear (to me at least) that the spiking and this new sound is as a consequence of having taken the plane. Will it go away? or most likely stay?

Hello guys!

Two weeks ago I made a post regarding precautions around flights.
I got home 1,5 week ago and noticed that my T have increased in volume since I got home.

During flight I used ear plugs and NC headphones (I never used NC before and only used it during flights, no music at all) and it seemed to cancel a lot of the engine sound out.
I was at a work conference so the volume of all the people gathering together at dinners etc was quite loud, hitting 75-80 db, I used ear plugs the whole time of course. A lot of times where we had optional events I would go back to my room to avoid the loud noises in the bar etc. So I really took care of my ears to not get exposed when not needed to. However, I couldn't escape everything and my ears did have to sit through a few hours everyday with loud noises.

I cannot understand why my T have increased, I didn't use headphones to listen to music, try to avoid loud places when I could and had my earplugs in when it was loud and protected my ears during flights. The only thing I can think about is that I didn't use my NC headphones too much on the way back since it emitted a really annoying high pitch sound, I guess it was just a mix of my own T amped up by the faint noise in the headphones) but still had my ear plugs in. It was not loud enough to make me anxious (I usually are easily).

Maybe I didn't have my plugs fitted perfectly? It is the same that I use everyday and I think they work fine and have not had any problem with them so far.

Maybe I am just grasping after explanation, but I don't know why it is louder? Worst is in the mornings since I think about it a lot, during the day I tend to forget about it but it is still clear that the T is louder.

Is it just temporary? I have had some sore back and neck pain on and off, got a massage yesterday to try to relieve it.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Last Sunday I went on a plane and I had a bit of a head cold, I was worried that the plane might effect my tinnitus as a plane did make it spike a few months ago,. A few months ago as the plane was descending my ears hurt and then I had a tinnitus spike for the rest of that day and also the next few days but it went away. Still had tinnitus but the spike settled down soon after.


This last flight (Sunday) I had no pain on descent and it did not do anything to my tinnitus at the time, I was so glad and forgot all about it , however half way through Monday really loud screeching tinnitus started and I am wondering if it could possibly be due to the plane, but starting a day later, would that timing make sense?


It is unbearable at the moment, the loudest and highest pitch I have ever had, cant watch tv, read, concentrate, I am having suicidal thoughts. I am praying this spike will stop soon but I am really scared as its over taking everything and the thought it might stay at this high pitch volume forever is terrifying. The screech has not decreased at all since Monday. The exact same pitch all week with not one minute of reprieve.

You were saying...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Excuse me. Did you seriously alter the text of my quote by adding your negative thoughts?

Ed suggested that we create a "learn from successes of others'" thread. I pointed out that your arguments could be used to argue against such a thread. If you think I was trying to mislead anyone, look at it again. I wanted to use "strikethrough" font to cross out your words (while making it clear that That was the original quote), but this option is not available, so I changed the font colour and added a note that I am using that instead of strikethrough font.

Did you do that to any of the members you quoted?

No. I just did it to your posts, to showcase and highlight the ridiculousness of those posts.

 

[AZeurotuner]

I had already provided a rebuttal to every single one of your "arguments."

On what planet are you winning this debate? All you have done is contradict yourself twenty million times, and you STILL haven't answered my question. What about the psychosomatic mechanisms behind tinnitus spikes? Please stop deflecting and answer the question Mr. Bauer.

 

[Bill Bauer]

On what planet are you winning this debate?

Earth.

All you have done is contradict yourself twenty million times

I had addressed each "contradiction" that you came up with.

What about the psychosomatic mechanisms behind tinnitus spikes? Please stop deflecting and answer the question Mr. Bauer.

I had already done that. More than once. In this thread.

 

[GregCA]

One example of something being unsafe proves that the probability of it being unsafe is greater than zero.

Surely you know that there is no activity that carries a (strictly) zero risk. Didn't you just fly recently? What made you decide to go in spite of all the existing crash reports?

Do you agree that people with H and T would benefit from reading these cautionary tales?

Not sure. It seems akin to broadcasting footage of plane disasters at a boarding gate.
"Welcome passengers, you should know there is a non zero probability of crashing... let me show you a few samples of horrific catastrophes. Have a nice flight, and remember, you aren't safe anywhere!"

 

[Bill Bauer]

It seems akin to broadcasting footage of plane disasters at a boarding gate.

If people were to think that flying a plane carries No risk, it would make sense to make them aware of the fact that the risk is in fact there.

Surely you know that there is no activity that carries a (strictly) zero risk.

Many T sufferers actually believe that, say, if they wear earplugs, there is a zero chance of them aggravating their T (because wearing earplugs gets the noise below 85 dB and to a level that is said to be safe for the healthy people). It is important to make them aware of the fact that they are wrong.

Didn't you just fly recently? What made you decide to go in spite of all the existing crash reports?

It has to do with what is at stake if the bad outcome were to take place. As I pointed out earlier, I think that suffering from debilitating tinnitus (is comparable to being burned alive over a period of decades and) is worse than dying.

 

[flobo]

Reactions to this thread are strange.

Bill never said every single T sufferer will get worse if exposed to noise level that would be safe for people with healthy ears.

He merely stated that there is a very non negligible chance that it may not be safe, and that ear protection might not protect you.
If you wear a 32 dB NRR ear protection and you are exposed to 85 dB, your ears are not exposed to 53dB, that's not the way it works.
dB are a logarithmic scale, at best, you will have something like a 13 dB reduction, and that's only at the optimal frequencies.
Some low frequency sounds like basses will hardly be reduced.

So sure, there are people for whom that will be enough. If you have been doing fine going everywhere with ear protections for a decade, you are probably safe.

But saying that every T sufferer will be safe is ridiculous.

By the same logic, we should advice that no healthy person should wear ear protection at a concert, since most of them won't have problems afterward.

 

[AZeurotuner]

Earth.

I had addressed each "contradiction" that you came up with.

I had already done that. More than once. In this thread.

You can address them all you want, keep just slithering your way beside the point on every subject like a crooked politician. You're never wrong, even after being caught red handed you have some excuse for why your story never adds up. Keep living in your glass house of delusion, you've got plenty of roommates so I'm sure you won't be lonely.

 

[Bill Bauer]

So what like ten or twelve airbags? Can you guarentee you won't have an accident?

Back when I was buying a car (before the onset of my T), I looked for the safest car I could find. The car I ended up with has airbags everywhere. I feel bad about my choice of a car now, and I might get another car soon. That, or figure out how to disable the airbags. Having to drive this car and to take this risk makes me feel horrible. But at least I am able to take the risk into account and adjust my driving habits.

If I were not aware of what is at stake, I would be more likely to end up with a deployed airbag. So I am glad that I found out about this source of danger on this site.

n my flight two days ago from Tokyo-Sydney (where I am now) I found that the "contact" noise, by that I mean the noise coming from the frame of the airplane traveling via my chair, my bones, and eventually ending up in my head seemed quite noisy (more noisy than other flights I have taken in the past). However, there was nothing I could do, I tried different chairs, but to no avail. Now, after my flight, it seems as a result of my plane trip my general T is much noisier, as well as a new medium pitched T has developed in my right ear. I would like to ask you, how dangerous are long haul flights for tinnitus.

Rinz, Jul 3, 2017

That was very good. I have to give credit where credit is due. That post made a big impression on me back when I first read it in 2017. Luckily, that user happened to not get a permanent tinnitus spike:

I was in the same situation as you very recently. Also had to take flights (actually to and from Tokyo as I live there).. Indeed I recommend to sit as front as you can and possibly in the middle row so not near the window.. I used elacin 25 earplugs and nose qc headphones.. I was quite scared too for such long flights.. But luckily it did not get worse.. Hope it will be the same for you..

Rinz, Aug 27, 2017

Fangen's post that you had quoted was from 2016. Here are some of her more recent posts:

I've traveled sitting and the window (I had no choice, trust me I really didn't want to be there) and also sitting both just next to the wing and behind it, it is mostly up to what kind of airplane it is. The really new Airbus planes are much quieter now than the older ones so where you sit should matter less. Just bring protection and you will be good to go

Fangen, Aug 15, 2017

I am going to Seoul next month, it's like 13h in total with 10 h of them being on a flight (one 1h flight and then one 9h one). I have had the same problem as you, being scared and being weary of traveling. I've been three times since onset for work and it has only been short trips (longest was 4h)

Fangen, Sep 18, 2017

So, again it appears that Fangen hasn't ended up with a permanent spike and that her experience back in 2016 was such that she hasn't been convinced that it is unsafe for people with T to fly. Note that Fangen's original post was made days after she got that spike, whereas many of the people that I quoted were writing months or years after the event, and they were often arguing that the activity that did them in is not safe for people with T.

The third person you quoted above, was Xenia. I read her posts very carefully, and I don't see her ever mentioning that she wore any hearing protection. And of course it is unsafe to not wear hearing protection inside of an airplane - this forum is filled with horror stories about it.

In any case, as you can see, I didn't make any blanket statements about there not being any reason for us to learn from the mistakes of the people that you quoted. I studied each case and found problems with each case. If you can do this for all/most of the posts quoted in the first post in this thread, I will agree that there is nothing to be learned from those quotes.

You can address them all you want, keep just slithering your way beside the point on every subject like a crooked politician.

My current post is a good example of the quality of my rebuttals. Hopefully it is clear to you and to everyone else that there is nothing wrong with my rebuttals.

 

[GregCA]

It has to do with what is at stake if the bad outcome were to take place. As I pointed out earlier, I think that suffering from debilitating tinnitus (is comparable to being burned alive over a period of decades and) is worse than dying.

You don't get to decide how you're maimed in an accident. That trip to get to the airport can easily injure you and increase your T to debilitating levels. Same for the air crash... not everyone gets away with sweet death.

Clearly you've decided that it was worth taking the (non zero) risk for your trip. That was the point.

 

[Bill Bauer]

You don't get to decide how you're maimed in an accident. That trip to get to the airport can easily injure you and increase your T to debilitating levels. Same for the air crash... not everyone gets away with sweet death.

Clearly you've decided that it was worth taking the (non zero) risk for your trip. That was the point.

Makes sense.

I believe that being exposed to loud noises carries not only a nonzero, but also a non-negligible risk for many people. Each person gets feedback from their body, and, based on their past experiences can estimate what their risk is. If they had been exposed to loud noises and never had any problems, perhaps that risk is low for them. If they have had problems in the past (but thought that it was just stress, as those noises can't possibly be harmful), their risk might not be so low.

As flobo had pointed out, many people won't have any trouble with loud noises. Some people will, that's the whole point of warning them.

 

[Flamingo1]

1000 examples of something being safe does not prove that the probability of it being unsafe is zero. One example of something being unsafe proves that the probability of it being unsafe is greater than zero. IMHO, T is so horrible that increasing the chance of making it louder is unacceptable.

Wow, Bill, how do you manage to cross a road? When cars are present, there's a > 0% chance of getting hit!

 

[Flamingo1]

I agree with @Bill Bauer in that the 85 decibel threshold for noise damage may not necessarily apply to compromised ears like ours. I find that my T will spike with sound levels less than 85 decibels. But then again, I am experiencing a spike right now for no apparent reason. And then there are times when I didn't experience a spike after having being exposed to a noisy environment. It would be helpful to see a scientific studies on safe noise levels v.s. frequencies for people with tinnitus, although I expect it varies by root cause and location/extent of the damage.

 

[Ed209]

He merely stated that there is a very non negligible chance that it may not be safe, and that ear protection might not protect you.
If you wear a 32 dB NRR ear protection and you are exposed to 85 dB, your ears are not exposed to 53dB, that's not the way it works.
dB are a logarithmic scale, at best, you will have something like a 13 dB reduction, and that's only at the optimal frequencies.
Some low frequency sounds like basses will hardly be reduced.

Hi flobo, I'm not oblivious to the other side of this argument, but like Greg stated, there is no logical upside. I will say it's practically impossible to protect against all the noises Bill is talking about because there are paradoxes within his thinking. The constant monitoring, and being on high alert, also puts an unnecessary burden on people. It can create stress and anxiety which are both more likely to make ones tinnitus feel worse; and not only that, but ones overall mental health and wellbeing too.

Your method of reduction is also wrong. The correct way actually is to subtract the NRR or SNR rating from the measured noise. The fact that the decibel scale is logarithmic doesn't matter. You are probably referring to the 'cooper guide' for occupational noise or something similar? They often recommend the adjusted calculation to account for misuse and for badly fitting ear protection. Misuse also falls into the category of expecting people to continually wear their plugs and not to momentarily remove them.

If someone uses their plugs, properly, then the lab tested numbers are accurate and sub-tractable from the measured decibel exposure. Without going into too much detail, a measured broadband sound is usually a compressed average of all the frequencies in the human hearing range, over time (dBA). They are usually measured using octaves, or one third octaves, with the latter being more detailed and representing more frequencies. The most accurate measurements are made using narrowband intervals of a few HZ, but this is often unnecessarily detailed. Response times should also factor into the measurement, but these are far more important when it comes to impulse noises such as gunshots, and explosions, etc.

Most noise is measured as, LAeq, which allows for variation over time and gives an average score. It should represent the same energy equivalent of a continuous noise as a single figure.