Learn from Others' Mistakes

[Bill Bauer]

90 dB is probably louder than some of the noises mentioned in the quotes in the first post in this tread, where the posters wore earplugs...

 

[Ed209]

I would definitely wear earplugs for that.

 

[fishbone]

90db, with plugs, is far from what I'd consider a big risk. It's about as risky as watching TV without plugs.

Ed, 90dbs with ear plugs should come out to 75dbs or less (if good ear plugs are used). why do you waste your time exchanging words with someone, that is not fully with it? He's obsessed with all noise levels and will have a rebuttal for everything. Don't waste your time anymore and hopefully this stupid/meaningless thread will go away...

 

[Tinniger]

The problem with your warnings is that all your warnings concern noise.

However, only about a quarter of all people affected by tinnitus cite noise as the cause:
28.70% - Don't know the cause
13.73% - Noise-induced hearing loss (continued noise exposure, occupational noise)
9.59% - Acoustic trauma (explosion, exposure to gunfire or extremely loud, sudden noise)
8.33% - Other (please specify)
7.65% - Virus (ear infection, flu, cold)
6.42% - Spontaneous onset (no apparent cause)
4.84% - Psychological (stress, anxiety, depression)
4.56% - Ototoxic (from drugs or medication)
2.87% - Age-related hearing loss
2.79% - Head or neck injury
2.39% - Sudden hearing loss
2.31% - Meniere's
1.47% - TMJ (issues with the jaw)
1.00% - Ear wax procedure (syringing, candling or other related procedure)
0.68% - Dental treatment
0.66% - Barotrauma (due to change in barometric or water pressure)
0.62% - Ear wax build up
0.60% - Otosclerosis
0.40% - Allergy
0.38% - Metabolic (diabetes, thyroid, B12, hyperlipidaemia etc.)

In view of the wide variety of causes of tinnitus, it makes no sense to mention only the avoidance of noise exposure to avoid a deterioration.

 

[Ed209]

90 dB is probably louder than some of the noises mentioned in the quotes in the first post in this tread, where the posters wore earplugs...

90 dB is probably louder than some of the noises mentioned in the quotes in the first post in this tread, where the posters wore earplugs...

It's all about context, Bill. A single sound, or a few noises that peak around 90db are no big deal.

Ears are usually damaged when they are exposed to sustained levels of dangerous noise over x amount of time. I've never acquired ringing ears, from anything, in my life, other than from loud parties, clubs and gigs. In my opinion, they are right at the top of the danger list.

Worrying about doors closing, and other knocks and bangs, is just a huge unnecessary mental strain in my opinion.

The other obvious risks, in terms of impulse sounds, are guns, certain power tools, and any kind of explosives. But this is all known by most people.

I see no benefit to walking around worrying about every sound that you may come into contact with. I know that when I used to be like that, I had spikes all the time, because tinnitus is hardwired to our emotions and tends to react more when we are emotionally invested.

Once I stopped caring about the mundane stuff I noticed a considerable improvement. And to be honest, I learnt that behaviour right here on TT.

 

[Bill Bauer]

90dbs with ear plugs should come out to 75dbs or less

Check out

It's been passed 3 month mark and I still have this annoying spike, the ear pain is gone but the spike remained.

Yes. I have Noise induced T. My spike was due to going out to a bar/day drinking/brewery/lots of alcohol. Since that day my T has been screaming.

No live loud music, just a restaurant and a lot of people in it.

A crowded restaurant would be about 75 dB, right?

I tried to wear some ear plugs while I was at the gym because I was afraid the clashing of the dumb bells was going to hurt my ears.

However, after working out twice I now have these two low frequency tones that feel like they are fighting over who should be playing every waking second. I can't quite figure out their pitches because they keep tag teaming, but it's much lower than my regular tinnitus.

I'm kind of distressed because I feel like I can never workout again for fear of making my tinnitus worse. What should I do?

Being at a gym while wearing earplugs would be below 75 dB, right? And besides, when someone drops a weight, the sound lasts a fraction of a second, so it ought to make a big difference, right?

I was focusing on avoiding noise at that time, and I do think that watching TV at medium volume levels at that time would have helped keep my ears from getting more sensitive. I've been doing that a lot lately (watching TV with the decibals just under 70) and it seems to help on readjusting my ears/brain to noise.

the noise has actually got worse - a lot worse just lately as I've been exposed to a noisy office environment. Normal for everyone else but too noisy for my ears. I now have a noise like a jet engine, a rushing wind with a high-pitched whine in it.

"Noisy office environment" sounds like "75 dB or less", right?

More loud music, despite earplugs. (I.e. way too loud and maybe too long exposure). That was 23 days ago.

That loud music might have been around 90 dB, right?

Are 80+dB sounds + earplugs safe? Well:

I tried the 'laissez faire' approach for that first period, where I didn't let myself be bothered by most sounds, except for 80db+ (when I started plugging the ears) and still went out and did all my old activities, but that ended up costing me dearly. I had a 'spike' (if it can still be called that) that hasn't gone away.

I used double ear protection the entire time – silicone earplugs fully inserted and 37dB Peltor X5 ear defenders on top. The heat gun basically sounds like a hair dryer, and my iPhone measures it at 72dB from the distance I was using it from my ears.

72 dB noise with earplugs and Peltor X5A. I guess it Can be too much.

Ed, 90dbs with ear plugs should come out to 75dbs or less (if good ear plugs are used). why do you waste your time exchanging words with someone, that is not fully with it?

had some friends with chronic tinnitus that told me I'd be fine with ear plugs, well, I wasn't.

Some ENT told me ear plugs are safe. Wrong! T is with me again.

 

[AZeurotuner]

I stand by my comment. The context of all of those messages is that for many months he would mention taking risks and getting spikes as a result. Then he posted the following (he was the one who bolded some of the text below)

90 decibels isn't bad with properly inserted earplugs.... Interior decibels in my track car get higher than that and I've had no issues driving it once a week. I understand that we're all different but my level of damage is rather high (profound loss in higher frequencies), I'm sure a younger man with less extensive damage would be safe if I'm safe. The spikes you're referencing were probably caused from stress, probably as a result of folks like you making it seem like hearing a loud noise is the end of the world.

If someone's taking the time to post a new thread on a noise, I can GUARANTEE you the individual is under a great deal of stress and anxiety. You never seem to understand this and use these threads as "proof" that we must avoid any activity with the potential for risk.

You previously admitted to flying half way across the world for a vacation, I am still not clear on why your vacation was OK but events such as weddings and shows aren't. Are you going to tell me that the entire continent of Europe keep the noise level below 80 decibels as soon as you stepped off the plane? No you took precautions, but apparently you're the only one intelligent enough to properly access risk and reward.

So tomorrow is the show. And I don't want to use earplugs but I don't want to destroy my hearing either. So could you tell me am I able to go there without earplugs

NO I am totally kidding, I did use the earplugs. So there were 1 hour dance at 1 pm and then a second one at 6 pm. It did not sound too loud, now my T is a little louder but this feels like a normal spike

He posted this before you wrote that to him, so you did know that he protected his hearing. Nice try though.

 

[Bill Bauer]

90 decibels isn't bad with properly inserted earplugs.

Or is it? See my last post.

 

[AZeurotuner]

I would definitely wear earplugs for that.

He did Ed read my previous post... Bill isn't acknowledging the facts.

 

[AZeurotuner]

Or is it? See my last post.

You are something else Bill.... I still remember arguing with you over the accuracy of iPhone decibel apps. You were questioning the accuracy of said apps when it suited your argument, fast forward to now and you say "72 decibels" like it's set in stone. So which one is it? I'll answer that question... Whichever one fits your narrative.

 

[fishbone]

Check out

A crowded restaurant would be about 75 dB, right?

Being at a gym while wearing earplugs would be below 75 dB, right? And besides, when someone drops a weight, the sound lasts a fraction of a second, so it ought to make a big difference, right?


"Noisy office environment" sounds like "75 dB or less", right?
That loud music might have been around 90 dB, right?

Are 80+dB sounds + earplugs safe? Well:


72 dB noise with earplugs and Peltor X5A. I guess it Can be too much.

A crowded restaurant is NOT less than 72Dbs(more like 80 to 90+dbs at time). A noisy office is NOT less than 72dbs(80 Dbs and louder for sure). What point did you prove? No point except, you are a master at copy and pasting.

 

[AZeurotuner]

Being at a gym while wearing earplugs would be below 75 dB, right? And besides, when someone drops a weight, the sound lasts a fraction of a second, so it ought to make a big difference, right?

Bad example... Weights dropping are well past 100 decibels, I have a friend who attributes years of power lifting to his T. Not only that but most gyms (in my experience) play pretty loud music, higher than 75 decibels.

As for the other stuff, you are continuing not to account for stress responses. I had a stressful day yesterday (not due to noise) and I had a spike, the two go hand and hand with each other. Why do you refuse to take that into consideration?

 

[Bill Bauer]

A crowded restaurant is NOT less than 72Dbs(more like 80 to 90+dbs at time). A noisy office is NOT less than 72dbs(80 Dbs and louder for sure).

And yet those noises had resulted in serious spikes.

What point did you prove?

This reminds me of an episode in the show Arrested Development when the protagonist finds out that his girlfriend is not really a teacher at a school for slow learners.

 

[Ed209]

At the end of the day, @Bill Bauer, the only way anyone can live by these rules is if they're housebound, 24/7, with nothing in their house.

Stuff happens bud! The second we leave our house it's practically impossible to follow your rules. Do you not remember my parody post? I thought that perfectly summed up what you are expecting of people. I'll repost it here to highlight the contradictions:

"Gotta pick you up on that one bud. What if a tiger roars! And more to the point: what if the tiger eats you? That's got to be bad for your ears

It is certainly the right approach you have there though. If you use the safety protocol and stay home, just be sure to turn the tv off (it can reach 60db). Don't make any food because that will also be too loud (over 60db and possibly 70db to 80db +). Stay away from any doors; one might close on you. Don't open any windows as the wind might be a problem; there can be some windy days that will be a risk. Don't wash yourself as the shower is too loud and getting in and out of the bath poses the threat of spikes as well (70db +). As you rightly said, don't have conversations as they can also reach 60db to 70db. Don't have any kids or at least put any kids you have up for adoption, immediately, as they are very dangerous. Don't wash your clothes as the washing machine is another hazard waiting around the corner along with your vacuum cleaner and other cleaning implements. I recommend living in filth as it will keep your ears a lot healthier and there's no risk of any spikes.

If you do venture outside of the house be extremely careful. Literally anything can go above 60db and you'll frequently hear sounds above 70db. Stay well away from a job because you'll likely need a car and that's not really recommended. Public transport is also a huge no no, that can be louder than a car. I recommend walking everywhere from now on. This may build up a nice sweat, so you better get used to stinking because as stated earlier, the washing machine is too loud to be used safely. Don't be so sure that the parks are safe. You will find that there's dog walkers (dogs are another threat) and there's also the possibility of lots of children. If your destination involves walking near any roads then you better cancel your trip as it's just too risky.

Finally, and this is very important, don't socialise ever again. Socialising is just far too dangerous. There's conversation, the possibility of a bar or two, and maybe even a trip to the cinema! There's a very real risk that you may have fun, and for the love of god, don't do that! Fun is dangerous.

To close my statement, I'd like to add that earplugs are useless at protecting you against all of these hazards, and I have access to many threads and posts to prove this beyond doubt. Good luck!"

 

[fishbone]

And yet those noises had resulted in serious spikes.

This reminds me of an episode in the show Arrested Development when the protagonist finds out that his girlfriend is not really a teacher at a school for slow learners.

.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The problem with your warnings is that all your warnings concern noise.

However, only about a quarter of all people affected by tinnitus cite noise as the cause:
28.70% - Don't know the cause
13.73% - Noise-induced hearing loss (continued noise exposure, occupational noise)
9.59% - Acoustic trauma (explosion, exposure to gunfire or extremely loud, sudden noise)
8.33% - Other (please specify)
7.65% - Virus (ear infection, flu, cold)
6.42% - Spontaneous onset (no apparent cause)
4.84% - Psychological (stress, anxiety, depression)
4.56% - Ototoxic (from drugs or medication)
2.87% - Age-related hearing loss
2.79% - Head or neck injury
2.39% - Sudden hearing loss
2.31% - Meniere's
1.47% - TMJ (issues with the jaw)
1.00% - Ear wax procedure (syringing, candling or other related procedure)
0.68% - Dental treatment
0.66% - Barotrauma (due to change in barometric or water pressure)
0.62% - Ear wax build up
0.60% - Otosclerosis
0.40% - Allergy
0.38% - Metabolic (diabetes, thyroid, B12, hyperlipidaemia etc.)

In view of the wide variety of causes of tinnitus, it makes no sense to mention only the avoidance of noise exposure to avoid a deterioration.

Today or yesterday someone posted (possibly in this thread) that their T was not a result of an acoustic trauma, and yet they still get spikes as a result of noises. The person had concluded that "damage is damage" and that the cause of the damage might not matter. Sadly, I forgot to make a copy of that thread. If you are reading this, please make a post here.

the only way anyone can live by these rules is if they're housebound, 24/7, with nothing in their house.

This is simply not true.

The second we leave our house it's practically impossible to follow your rules

Just use an earplug when you think there is a reasonable chance of being exposed to noise. Stay away from live music, loud crowds, power tools. How difficult is it, really?

put any kids you have up for adoption

A good one.

 

[Ed209]

Just use an earplug when you think there is a reasonable chance of being exposed to noise

I'll quote some sage advice by Bill Bauer to argue against this one:

Earplugs are not to be trusted and can be unreliable.

 

[Ed209]

You've got more plot holes than a Michael Bay movie, Bill.

It's all in good nature though. I'm aware you mean well in your own way.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I am still not clear on why your vacation was OK but events such as weddings and shows aren't

The noise in an airplane was likely quieter than the noise at events that involve live music.

I'll quote some sage advice by Bill Bauer to argue against this one:

Earplugs are not to be trusted and can be unreliable.

I was talking about someone deliberately choosing to go to an event/place that they know will be loud and staying there for some time.

When I advised the use of earplugs, I was talking about being accidentally exposed to a loud noise (e.g., an ambulance drives by, someone turns on loud music [in which case you could proceed to leave], etc.).

 

[Ed209]

I was talking about someone deliberately choosing to go to an event/place that they know will be loud and staying there for some time.

Sorry, did I quote you out of context

 

[Bill Bauer]

Sorry, did I quote you out of context

The thing is that many of the people I quoted posted here and they don't seem to think that I quoted them out of context. Alue and Alvise might not agree with me, but they don't think they got quoted out of context. And if you look at those quotes again, you will see that many of those I quoted were trying to convey the same message that I tried to convey by quoting them.

 

[AZeurotuner]

The noise in an airplane was likely quieter than the noise at events that involve live music.

You ignore this part...

Are you going to tell me that the entire continent of Europe keep the noise level below 80 decibels as soon as you stepped off the plane?

City streets, crowded airports, taxi's, busses, restaurants, entertainment, etc... Or did you stay in your hotel room the entire time (that actually wouldn't surprise me)?

 

[fishbone]

I know you may mean well, by starting this thread.
I hold no hard feelings, towards you buddy.
Be blessed.....

 

[Tinker Bell]

Today or yesterday someone posted (possibly in this thread) that their T was not a result of an acoustic trauma, and yet they still get spikes as a result of noises. The person had concluded that "damage is damage" and that the cause of the damage might not matter. Sadly, I forgot to make a copy of that thread. If you are reading this, please make a post here.

This is simply not true.

Just use an earplug when you think there is a reasonable chance of being exposed to noise. Stay away from live music, loud crowds, power tools. How difficult is it, really?

A good one.

They had hyperacusis.

You keep downplaying the possiblity that hyperacusis may contribute to spikes. Probably easier to ignore any factors that do not support your narrative.

 

[Bill Bauer]

As for the other stuff, you are continuing not to account for stress responses. I had a stressful day yesterday (not due to noise) and I had a spike, the two go hand and hand with each other. Why do you refuse to take that into consideration?

It might be the case for some of those cases. However, many of them had already explained that they were not stressed during or after the noise. It hasn't occured to them that the noise might cause problems for them. It has happened to me a number of times too. Take that incident with the phone. I didn't expect any serious problems as a result of a Loud Phone.

City streets, crowded airports, taxi's, busses, restaurants, entertainment, etc...

I didn't go to any restaurants. Most European supermarkets I had a chance to visit didn't have that elevator music playing, so they were nicer than North American supermarkets. My entertainment consisted of visiting museums (they were quieter than I expected them to be). The streets and airports were certainly quieter than venues with live music.

You keep downplaying the possiblity that hyperacusis may contribute to spikes.

Do you agree that people with H and T would benefit from reading these cautionary tales?

 

[Tinker Bell]

I stand by my comment. The context of all of those messages is that for many months he would mention taking risks and getting spikes as a result. Then he posted the following (he was the one who bolded some of the text below)


Since I was/am convinced that being exposed to 90 dB for over an hour is a big risk for a T sufferer, I wanted to convey this to him in a way that would get his attention. I also Sincerely mean/meant it: "Risk-takers" WOULD be better off in the long run if they were to have a constant reminder that would help them to not be tempted to do dumb stuff. Without such a reminder, they might keep taking risks and then they might end up with a much Louder constant reminder.

You're neglecting quite a bit of background on the original post and its poster. This member had an anxious posting history and frequently over estimated dB levels. Thanks to hyperacusis, he continually thought sounds were louder — including his own voice. He did not have a dB meter. He only made inaccurate guesses.

This is why we should look at individual circumstances rather than quotes taken out of context.

 

[Bill Bauer]

This member had an anxious posting history

This member also kept reporting getting spikes as a result of being exposed to noise. For example, I remember he had a spike after attending an event at a church.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Do you agree that people with H and T would benefit from reading these cautionary tales?

No. A hand-selected quote dump without any organization, context or specific data is not beneficial. It's a recipe for sound anxiety.

This member also kept reporting getting spikes as a result of being exposed to noise. For example, I remember he had a spike after attending an event at a church.

Then I'm sure you also recall when he mentioned he could only hear his tinnitus in a quiet room. Or the trip he took oversees and was fine? Or the last time he stopped by TT and said he was doing well?

Or do you prefer to only share negative threads? Many of the members quoted due to spikes later improve. Are these spikes or tinnitus fluctuations? Should we fear what can improve? How many of your quoted members later improved or returned to their pre-spike tinnitus?

Now that would be helpful data, too.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Or the trip he took oversees and was fine?

Like I wrote earlier, a plane is quieter than an event with live music.

he mentioned he could only hear his tinnitus in a quiet room. ... Or the last time he stopped by TT and said he was doing well?

So did

It started 2015 with a slight ring that I hardly noticed, but I continued to to go to loud events, use headphones/earphones, loud music, basically everything that you shouldn't do. Then last year it became a massive problem, probably a month before I joined the site. Ever since then it's become a bigger part of my life than it should be.

and

I tried the 'laissez faire' approach for that first period, where I didn't let myself be bothered by most sounds, except for 80db+ (when I started plugging the ears) and still went out and did all my old activities, but that ended up costing me dearly. I had a 'spike' (if it can still be called that) that hasn't gone away.

and

My T faded a lot suddenly almost 3 years ago. I had total remission of some trebly sounds in my head. It became only audible in quiet rooms.

Now its back in full force cause Im stupid. Some ENT told me ear plugs are safe. Wrong! T is with me again.

I learned from their mistakes, and I was hoping that so would he.
As I pointed out before, if you begin hitting a wall with a hammer, it takes some time before you see the light on the other side of the wall.

A hand-selected quote dump without any organization, context or specific data is not beneficial.

Many of the people I quoted were trying to convey the same message as I was when I quoted them. Take the people I quoted above, for example. They posted here partially so that others could learn from their mistakes.

 

[Ed209]

No. A hand-selected quote dump without any organization, context or specific data is not beneficial. It's a recipe for sound anxiety.


Then I'm sure you also recall when he mentioned he could only hear his tinnitus in a quiet room. Or the trip he took oversees and was fine? Or the last time he stopped by TT and said he was doing well?

Or do you prefer to only share negative threads? Many of the members quoted due to spikes later improve. Are these spikes or tinnitus fluctuations? Should we fear what can improve? How many of your quoted members later improved or returned to their pre-spike tinnitus?

Now that would be helpful data, too.

I think a reverse of this thread would be more beneficial. In other words: Learn from others' successes.

Isn't that what we all want? We can still talk about the avoidance of dangerous, prolonged noise, for success. In this case it would be better if we could quote people from the real world as well. I think you'll find a huge difference between the way people behave on here, at the height of anxiety, to the way people deal with it who aren't on a support forum.