Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Reinier]

I'm trying it for the first time...
I feel the warm in my ears (more again in the most hurt)... Is it normal ? good sign, or not ?

You will let us know what effects you are experiencing I hope?

 

[Mithrandir]

I feel the warm of laser...much more in the most injured ear...coincidence or not ? I don't know...
I have ear pain all the afternoon and seems to be better after my first usage of the laser...surely placebo effect ;-)

My big problem are ear pain and hyperacusis...

 

[Reinier]

My big problem are ear pain and hyperacusis...

Hyperacusis is my biggest problem too at the moment (I do have tinnitus and hearing loss too).
I am curious if your hyperacusis will improve after using the laser. If this happens this will most likely take some time.

 

[Mithrandir]

Yes I have 3 weeks without working and I'm taking trobalt too...so

May the force be with us !

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I have a question for the experts of LLLT

@FERNANDO GIL
@attheedgeofscience
@Nick J.
@felinefine
and all I forgot...

Am I a good candidate ? (Acoustic trauma the 24th of september 2015, little mid noise exposure after the acoustic trauma)
On my audiograms, blue is for 0 to 8khz and red line for 9khz to 16khz

View attachment 9437

Hello
Sorry only now saw your post.
As any treatement of any kind, we do never know if it works or not.
I keep my position as you for sure saw in this threath, you need to try it. And see if it works.
The point is that some times you need to try with a high dose instead of starting with only a home laser.
So my advice is that you try it, at Anne or Dr Wilden or any other with a high dose laser. Only then you can see if your ears had any reaction. If so I advice to buy a home laser.

The audigram does not show how you will react to LLLT, only trying it.
Hope for the better. The only thing is that your lower frequencies are ok, so regeneration will start faster on the highs, if LLLT works of corse.
Fernando

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

To give you guys a sense , I am always either wearing 30db shooting range ear muffs or ear plugs or even both when I am outside the house - all the time.

A month ago my t would be screaming at me inside my muffs like my head was stuck into an oven leaking gas all day long - horrible sound gave me headaches after a while - now it's like hearing a soft wind all the time , a lot nicer the sound is softer and more pleasant and I get no more of those left - right ear metallic wheel high pitched "zings" .
I am not expecting LLLT to cure my t since I had some before my last major trauma but a bit softer would be a huge help towards final habituation a make me a very happy camper

Do not give up, the reactions are good sign.
Remember to stop for times to time. So your ears can rest.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I didn't get much changes in January - the most changes I got was a since the 5 February once I cranked up the power to 120mw I cleary noticed my t to be softer and sounds are better too. The small gaps of Db I had between 3500 and 4500 hz seem to be filling back.
T is still there but it sounds better, more like a flat soft windy sound compared to a harsh loud hiss.

I can wear earmuffs for extended time and the sound does not bother me much although it's there.

Some studies show that becuase the cochlea is cast in bone and flesh the laser beam is actually weakened a lot by the time it reaches the cochlea that's why the human study they did - using only a very weak 7.5 mw for 4 minutes during one week only - is totally useless.

I think the issue wiht LLLT is that no large company could possibly make money because lasers are already made cheaply in millions in China and Taiwan so no one is interested in funding a large study using the actual same protocol that is used at the main laser clinics - over 120mw up to 500mw and several different wavelength and for a few months at least as it takes time.

Existing small laser unit manufacturers don't have the funds or investors for that again because they cannot patent lasers.

And perhaps those more powerful lasers which do produce results are too powerful to be sold to individuals due to regulations so that's another issue - even though the beam isn't focused to cause damage.

My main goal was to get improvement in Db lost to accoustic trauma using lasers so far I am hearing improvements.

The thing with LLLT is that is not a constant improvement. you can be 1 or 2 months without any main improvement and then sudnely is way better. Is just it is.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

All I am saying is that the window of opportunity to get some hearing Db back is about a year at most

beyond that nothing is going to work well and even if you happen to get Some minor Db back by miracle , the t itself may not change much anymore as its already engraved in the brain by then

That's the current knowledge we have so far
.Again I am not sure why you feel scammed

Did the clinic promised results even though the damage was done 10 years ago ?

ATEOS had tinnitus since childhood and now is better even from that ear, the sound of the T is a way of our coclea saying there is a problem with it. Instead of pain it creats a sound inside our head if you get cured the sound will finish. And the sound we ear usual represent the frequencies that are more damage. My T sound on my right ear is changing since i start LLLT. Is getting more thinner.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hyperacusis is my biggest problem too at the moment (I do have tinnitus and hearing loss too).
I am curious if your hyperacusis will improve after using the laser. If this happens this will most likely take some time.

Once again see ATEOS story.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hyperacusis is my biggest problem too at the moment (I do have tinnitus and hearing loss too).
I am curious if your hyperacusis will improve after using the laser. If this happens this will most likely take some time.

Hiper will be the first simptom to go away if LLLT works.

 

[Mithrandir]

@FERNANDO GIL
and you, how are you today ? Do you get back your life ?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@FERNANDO GIL
and you, how are you today ? Do you get back your life ?

After a week with up and downs, T is lower again and stable.
Back to Norway in 4th March for 4 days treatment. So till then no laser, just letting my ears rest. for a wille.

 

[Bobby B]

I don't understand why you need to take such long breaks during the treatment though .
If it is really helping then why not continue everyday at the same pace until you get to the results you want .
I am only doing 30 minutes per day - that's about 2% of the time , 98% percent of the day my ears are "resting" wouldn't that be sufficient ? What did wilden say about taking breaks ?

As for power , the new type of lucky laser has thin long glass tips which you can insert deep into the ear canal so that the beam reaches further deep. For me more than 120mw gives me vertigo so I know it reaches the cochlea.

 

[Bobby B]

 

[lymebite]

@Bobby B

With the thin long glass tips, how do you determine how far to place inside the ear? To be sure to not get too close to the eardrum and risk touching it?

 

[Bobby B]

The angle you put it in is having it pointing towards the back of the head so it's touching the turn inside the canal rather then the drum as its has a larger diameter than a Cue-tip but obviously I don't shove it hard into the ear . I put it halfway inside and slow

 

[jdjd09]

Does this stuff actually work LLLT? I have looked through some of this thread, but haven't really gotten a good answer.

Also, the costs of some of these things is crazy. Anyone have a DIY where you buy you own laser Diodes and build these yourself? Honestly, a laser diode is about $12.00. These devices can't cost much more than $100 to make AT MOST. They are making way more than they spend on making these devices.

Any thoughts on how to make your own?

 

[lymebite]

@jdjd09

There are actually two separate major TTalk threads about LLLT, this one is on user experiences for sharing advice among people trying laser therapy, the other is a conversation about how well it works. The discussion of how well it works can very "political" with lots of strong feelings on both sides, so that is why they are separated into different threads, the efficacy thread is here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...apy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-efficacy-debate.7650/

I am not aware that anyone has reported (yet) on how to build one at home. While many of these are rather expensive, some are relatively more affordable, notably the Konftec lasers, so there are options to consider in different price ranges.

 

[jdjd09]

@jdjd09

There are actually two separate major TTalk threads about LLLT, this one is on user experiences for sharing advice among people trying laser therapy, the other is a conversation about how well it works. The discussion of how well it works can very "political" with lots of strong feelings on both sides, so that is why they are separated into different threads, the efficacy thread is here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...apy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-efficacy-debate.7650/

I am not aware that anyone has reported (yet) on how to build one at home. While many of these are rather expensive, some are relatively more affordable, notably the Konftec lasers, so there are options to consider in different price ranges.

Can I ask if there had been anyone in here who has posted about making progress on hearing loss and t? I looked through posts but can't really find too many stories, but maybe I'm missing them. Has anyone had success with the konftec device?

 

[Bobby B]

I am sure you can build it but it's not just a simple beam it has to be unfocused in such a way that you don't hurt yourself plus the one I have you can tune in the power yourself.
There seem to be a few places in the USA offering this treatment why not give it a try first and talk to them about results they got whih their own clients

 

[lymebite]

@jdjd09

The advice of @Bobby B about trying a clinic first is good. Also, I know this this a long thread to read through, but it does contain a lot of detailed information and what you are looking for should be mostly already posted, so if you are seriously interested it is worth the time it will take (it took me a few hours). One short cut place to start would be to read the profile page for @attheedgeofscience - specifically the Information tab portions about LLLT. There is both general information about LLLT and specific data about his results.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I don't understand why you need to take such long breaks during the treatment though .
If it is really helping then why not continue everyday at the same pace until you get to the results you want .
I am only doing 30 minutes per day - that's about 2% of the time , 98% percent of the day my ears are "resting" wouldn't that be sufficient ? What did wilden say about taking breaks ?

As for power , the new type of lucky laser has thin long glass tips which you can insert deep into the ear canal so that the beam reaches further deep. For me more than 120mw gives me vertigo so I know it reaches the cochlea.

When I started I made it everyday, and i think is need it. But with time you will realise that stopping for a wille is good.
I did de 5 days straight with 2 hours each ear,( one week one ear the next week another ear) I was doing 808/400 inside the ear 30 minuts / 808 /600 mw pulsed behind the ear 30 minuts as well / the do the same 650 at 120. So now i´m letting the treatment make effect. And let my ears rest for 3 weeks. I do time to time in between. But now I want it to rest till March and get new frequencies with Anne lasers. And when i´m back I will 5 more days and stop for a wille again.
Remember that the LLLT efect is not only during the time of the treatment it self. It last for a some time.
With time you will start to realise when you need more time/power and when you need to rest.
Fernando

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Does this stuff actually work LLLT? I have looked through some of this thread, but haven't really gotten a good answer.

Also, the costs of some of these things is crazy. Anyone have a DIY where you buy you own laser Diodes and build these yourself? Honestly, a laser diode is about $12.00. These devices can't cost much more than $100 to make AT MOST. They are making way more than they spend on making these devices.

Any thoughts on how to make your own?

Don´t do it, just for the good of your ears.
Is not just put a laser in your ears, and hope you get good. All I can say.

 

[jdjd09]

Don´t do it, just for the good of your ears.
Is not just put a laser in your ears, and hope you get good. All I can say.

Then what is it? The only thing that would matter is the laser itself and its specs? What are you talking g about? There is nothing magical about there machines, the lasers are what matter for lllt.

 

[lymebite]

Then what is it? The only thing that would matter is the laser itself and its specs? What are you talking g about? There is nothing magical about there machines, the lasers are what matter for lllt.

In theory you could build one yourself if really you know what you are doing. But there are a number of variables, for example one of the key ones is "divergence" - you need an unfocused beam, not a narrow point of light. I am not an engineer, so this is about the limit of my technical knowledge. But I think if you wanted to try, you just really need to know exactly what you are doing, because a mistake maybe could literally kill you (e.g., I am not sure a narrow point of light, such as the kind that physical therapists would use for muscle / tendon trigger point release therapy, into the brain area is going to be healthy).

One interesting place to read up on medical lasers is this site, they mainly are selling lasers but they have a lot of technical / educational information too:

http://www.coldlasers.org/

 

[Bobby B]

@jdjd09
In one long thread you keep on saying that this hearing loss issue affects you so much that you plan on killing yourself yet here you are trying to save some money instead of going for the best option on LLLT .

How much money is your life worth to you ?

laser may potentially improve hearing but they need to be of the right power and beam radius to even work at all and you really have one shot at this so don''t waste your time , I would suggest you either get a properly designed and powerful unit or go to a clinic that does it correctly.

If the beam is too weak it won't go past the flesh&bones before the cochlea.
If the beam is powerful but improperly focused it may hurt you bad and do even more damages.

High power laser diodes with a focused laser beam isn't something you want to experiment on you body at home unless you have experience.

Those units we discuss here have the optics designed so that the beam works for the ear which is why they cost more than just a plain laser diode, and also you can dial in the power required (for the lucky laser)

I payed 2000 USD for mine and after 2 months of use so far it helped for the hearing/H part and even made my T softer..totally worth it now I can now pick up a phone and talk at work without having a crazy loud hiss reacting to it and making the conversation a pain to follow , so it helped me in my work.

I would have gladly payed 20,000 USD for such result..
2000 is nothing since it is a one year or more treatment the real costs is US 170 per month that's really not much

 

[Mithrandir]

First of all; f.cking cold in Norway going from istanbul, Turkey is a wrong decision going to Oslo in January. Anne, Petter and Martin were very friendly and helpful during the last week I was there.

Hello Ragnaboz2,

Don't hesitate to post your audiogram before and after your trip in Norway if you can Thanks

Best regards,

Mithrandir.

 

[jdjd09]

@jdjd09
In one long thread you keep on saying that this hearing loss issue affects you so much that you plan on killing yourself yet here you are trying to save some money instead of going for the best option on LLLT .

How much money is your life worth to you ?

laser may potentially improve hearing but they need to be of the right power and beam radius to even work at all and you really have one shot at this so don''t waste your time , I would suggest you either get a properly designed and powerful unit or go to a clinic that does it correctly.

If the beam is too weak it won't go past the flesh&bones before the cochlea.
If the beam is powerful but improperly focused it may hurt you bad and do even more damages.

High power laser diodes with a focused laser beam isn't something you want to experiment on you body at home unless you have experience.

Those units we discuss here have the optics designed so that the beam works for the ear which is why they cost more than just a plain laser diode, and also you can dial in the power required (for the lucky laser)

I payed 2000 USD for mine and after 2 months of use so far it helped for the hearing/H part and even made my T softer..totally worth it now I can now pick up a phone and talk at work without having a crazy loud hiss reacting to it and making the conversation a pain to follow , so it helped me in my work.

I would have gladly payed 20,000 USD for such result..
2000 is nothing since it is a one year or more treatment the real costs is US 170 per month that's really not much

What laser system would you recommend then? How much hearing improvement have you gotten (and not just the feeling of it, but measured results via an audiogram)?

Yes, I would love not to end it, but really see little choice soon. I would be willing to try this if there are actually chances I will get some results. But, I want to make sure I buy the correct unit and also know there are results.

 

[jdjd09]

Well, after days of searching I found @attheedgeofscience audiograms.
Some parts I woud say are within the error margin but I would think there is definite improvement, I would gladly pay good money for such an improvement myself.

I'm confused, how is that improvement? The chart at the bottom is the oldest than the top one. And the trend is it didn't improve but got worse. Am I missing something?

 

[RaZaH]

Lower one 5th ofAugust.
Upper one 10th of June.

Right ?