South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[bill 112]

@Artemis2K

Hmmm I don't know what to make of any of this,I would like to hear from these people he treated otherwise it's just another"thanks to this clinic I'm cured"story we read all over the internet.

The thing is,I'm sitting on a cash pile that I saved for a Stemcell treatment thanks to my family and friends who put it forward to help me.Im just afraid of going to some shady ass clinic that literally can do nothing for anyone only cleanse them of their cash.All I'm saying is,I'm yet to find one convincing clinic yet.

 

[Artemis2K]

@Artemis2K

Hmmm I don't know what to make of any of this,I would like to hear from these people he treated otherwise it's just another"thanks to this clinic I'm cured"story we read all over the internet.

The thing is,I'm sitting on a cash pile that I saved for a Stemcell treatment thanks to my family and friends who put it forward to help me.Im just afraid of going to some shady ass clinic that literally can do nothing for anyone only cleanse them of their cash.All I'm saying is,I'm yet to find one convincing clinic yet.

I honestly think you will get your wish. Even outside of hearing loss, the advancements with neurogenesis are amazing.

We will have to see about the clinic. It's really weird, and extremely hard to interpret.

 

[VRZ78]

I don't know how this all works, but I would expect that if he really was legitimate he would have gotten the press to make his name known and his treatment. That way he could have made the history books and be well known. People may mimic his treatment, but they wouldn't be able to take away his contribution to science.

This is why everything troubles me. Everything does not add up and the signals are mixed. Unless, I suppose, he wants the glory of helping people directly first before he makes announcements. But that seems irrational.

Don't forget that a doctor is not allowed to advertise his service

 

[Foncky]

Really? link? I would have thought that strain contributed to age related hearing loss, but that it happened naturally to an extent too, like eye vision I think gets worse with age from both usage (strain) and age related degeneration.

Yes ! I can't find the link for now, but I read that somewhere. Our hair cells are made to last a lifetime with "normal" use. It's only our fault if hearing loss is so common and so severe today.

Apart from a quiet life, those people also have a healthy diet, they exercise to build their houses and find food, etc.

 

[Reinier]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25849379
"Recruitment of endogenous progenitors is critical during tissue repair."
End quote.
I understand we still have progenitor cells in our inner ears. Even in adulthood.
When I read the abstract and the fact it is from 2015, I find it difficult to understand we are still so far away from regeneration in mammal inner ears.
The neonatal mouse ultricle regenerates hair cells. How come it is so difficult to see why this process stops in adult mice? The article is free, so I downloaded it. Not that I will understand much more after reading it, but perhaps I will understand just a little bit better why the challenge is so enormous.

Also when I look at the "Author information" there seems to be collaboration between China and USA researchers.

 

[Foncky]

I find it difficult to understand we are still so far away from regeneration in mammal inner ears.

Maybe some companies are not that far away... And going into human trials is just another big challenge, both financially and from a legal point of view.

 

[Reinier]

Maybe some companies are not that far away

Yes, I wondered about that too.
Especially because a number of companies started or changed websites (two or three at least).
There seems to be some movement, although I have been following this only for roughly one year.

 

[Foncky]

Been following this for 12 years. There is some movement... Does it mean something, I don't know. One year or five years or even ten are so easily spent with these complicated researches... But the race is on, that's for sure. All these companies must keep an eye on each other. They can't publish too much details before they are ready for clinical trials I believe.

I'm dreaming more and more about the day I'll be taken to the operation room to get the injection, surrounded by legit doctors and family. Then I'll be able to say my life was far more extraordinary than many people's life. It'd be like a second birth.

 

[RB2014]

Been following this for 12 years. There is some movement... Does it mean something, I don't know. One year or five years or even ten are so easily spent with these complicated researches... But the race is on, that's for sure. All these companies must keep an eye on each other. They can't publish too much details before they are ready for clinical trials I believe.

I'm dreaming more and more about the day I'll be taken to the operation room to get the injection, surrounded by legit doctors and family. Then I'll be able to say my life was far more extraordinary than many people's life. It'd be like a second birth.

Agreed with everything you just said. The past year has been truly exciting. New companies forming and they are motivated to find something that works for hair cell regeneration. They must have a good plan since they are spending money.

I'm even willing to be a guinea pig if the procedure is promising. Right now I don't consider the Novartis trial promising without more information, but I'm holding out for some of the other companies.

 

[Rubenslash]

The hearing loss market is worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Research about hearing loss has evolved to a point where pharma companies believe a cure can be found and given the size of the market, they are determined to find that solution. I am also very hopeful for the future.

 

[lolkas]

The hearing loss market is worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Research about hearing loss has evolved to a point where pharma companies believe a cure can be found and given the size of the market, they are determined to find that solution. I am also very hopeful for the future.

Hey, very true. Cool thing about this is:

A) Tinnitus is one one the most complicated conditions/symtom which can be caused by whole bunch of things
B) It surely is neurological issue (regardless of haircell damage or nerve or whatever, these are all nerves and share signalling patterns in/to/from brain)

So if they will be able to cure such complex thing as Tinnitus, then other medical fields will "catch" up. specially neurological since this is the field our problem is comming from.

I am sure that there won'be "one size fits all" treatment that cures underlying issue at first, but rather "different sizes" that are applicable based on cause. i.e. if you had acoustic trauma then ear injection/gene therapy will do or if you got it be ause of stress then you need gene+neuro stimmulator to bring things to balace and cure.

It is a big market, most exciding thing to investors and pharma is that it is EMPTY.(f*ck hearing aid companies, people buy their crap only as last resort and still end up not using them, its like a bad pill that takes headache away but gives you bladder issues). No competition so far (nothing official and 100% working with predictable outcome) that could be sold, so whomever get first - takes biggest slice of the pie. So imagine investing $70 millions and making lets say at very least 20 billion ? Thats best dream of any financial advisor/investor out there.

 

[grate_biff]

Been following this for 12 years. There is some movement... Does it mean something, I don't know. One year or five years or even ten are so easily spent with these complicated researches... But the race is on, that's for sure. All these companies must keep an eye on each other. They can't publish too much details before they are ready for clinical trials I believe.

I'm dreaming more and more about the day I'll be taken to the operation room to get the injection, surrounded by legit doctors and family. Then I'll be able to say my life was far more extraordinary than many people's life. It'd be like a second birth.

Halleluja!!!!
Not Religious by any means, but that picture made me wanna scream that out

 

[Reinier]

So if they will be able to cure such complex thing as Tinnitus, then other medical fields will "catch" up. specially neurological since this is the field our problem is comming from.

I wonder if it is not the other way around. Hearing research catching up.
Tinnitus research could benefit from advances in neurology and other cell biology research. Amount of research in hearing issues is so small compared to many other research.

 

[SilverSpiral]

Yes ! I can't find the link for now, but I read that somewhere. Our hair cells are made to last a lifetime with "normal" use. It's only our fault if hearing loss is so common and so severe today.

Apart from a quiet life, those people also have a healthy diet, they exercise to build their houses and find food, etc.

To be honest, can you really believe that? What part of our bodies DONT age naturally? Your hair, eyesight (afaik), skin, teeth, joints, muscle funtion (to an extent), sexual function, reproductive function, all decrease at some exponential curve relative to aging, but your hearing is the one thing that does not decrease naturally with age? only through trauma? In a sense I can believe it, but I'm also challenging the idea.

 

[Foncky]

Of course it ages. Our hair cells could last a life time but still loose some "efficiency". But it does not mean your hearing has to become very bad when you're 70 or older...

My grandmother (93 years old) hears better than me... I'd like to see her audiogram but it's certainly not really bad. She had a life with no loud music and no loud job involved...

If hearing loss is becoming such a problem and such a disability in our modern world, it's only because of loud cities, loud work places and loud activities (gigs, motorbikes, headphones, etc).

Wiping out outer hair cells at age 20 or 30 is not something we can't avoid.

The main problem is :
- we don't have a lot of hair cells (around 15 000 per ear)
- they don't regenerate
- they were not made to endure the level of noise of our current lifestyle

Age or diseases or birth abnormalities exist, but noise is the real trap.

 

[SilverSpiral]

Of course it ages. Our hair cells could last a life time but still loose some "efficiency". But it does not mean your hearing has to become very bad when you're 70 or older...

My grandmother (93 years old) hears better than me... I'd like to see her audiogram but it's certainly not really bad. She had a life with no loud music and no loud job involved...

If hearing loss is becoming such a problem and such a disability in our modern world, it's only because of loud cities, loud work places and loud activities (gigs, motorbikes, headphones, etc).

Wiping out outer hair cells at age 20 or 30 is not something we can't avoid.

The main problem is :
- we don't have a lot of hair cells (around 15 000 per ear)
- they don't regenerate
- they were not made to endure the level of noise of our current lifestyle

Age or diseases or birth abnormalities exist, but noise is the real trap.

Understand that I was in no way implying that the average post industrial lifestyle does not have a toll on our hearing. I fully recognize that, and I even believe that the hearing damage thresholds are well below whatever occupational organizations set as safe. What I was indirectly challenging was what I perceived to be the claim that hearing does not, or would not naturally degrade with age at all while most every other aspect of the human body does. But again, I'm not saying I know or even begin to predict what the case is. Maybe those 15 000 (never heard that figure before) are such that they do not degenerate or regenerate, but also would never degrade naturally with age, and the synapses may never age as well, but again, I am just trying to overall express the base level surprise at the idea that while almost any other aspect of the human body and experience (beyond possibly "consciousness" but again, in many cases even "consciousness"!) seem to degrade naturally with age. On that note, I wonder if theres ever been a study on hearing degrading in the brain sector and NOT the ears, probably not because it's the ears that go first but if other parts of the brain can degrade with age, maybe the hearing part can. But on the other hand we could get into what "natural" even means. I mean if you raised a person to grow up keeping their eyelids shut constantly throughout their life, and never reading, or using screens, would they have way better sight? Probably not, I dunno, I figure using your sight to an extent is also what keeps it active. But in no way am I implying that sight is at all comparable to hearing in regaurds to biological makeup and function. Sorry I don't feel I'm making much sense, I'm not arguing with you at all, so please dont get that impression.

 

[Foncky]

No no, sorry I was not clear, I'm not implying that our hearing doesn't degenerate at all with age.

It certainly does.

I'm just saying that I would not be surprised to see people in their 70's or 80's with only mild hearing loss, like 20 to 40dB thresholds throughout the normal hearing range. Such hearing loss is not really a problem (some people won't even notice) if it's not accompanied by tinnitus or hyperacusis.

 

[SilverSpiral]

No no, sorry I was not clear, I'm not implying that our hearing doesn't degenerate at all with age.

It certainly does.

I'm just saying that I would not be surprised to see people in their 70's or 80's with only mild hearing loss, like 20 to 40dB thresholds throughout the normal hearing range. Such hearing loss is not really a problem (some people won't even notice) if it's not accompanied by tinnitus or hyperacusis.

Oh, as far as natural hearing loss, again, I think it depends, like if a person has infections, takes antibiotics and the such, it could cause a drop, especially if the infections relate to the ear. But if you mean "Thresholds" thats a whole nother thing. It's not like everybody is born with 0DB audiogram thresholds you know? I've been told it varies person to person. Most people with "normal" hearing have a FLAT LINE across the spectrum, but sometimes it is below 0db, just based on their makeup. Testing below the threshold doesn't mean you've "lost" hearing if that line is straight across. I've been told by an audiologist that it varies person to person based on inner ear formation. Some people's lines are higher than others. It is typically DIPS that indicate LOSS, but again, perhaps its possible to be born with DIPS, but I guess in that case it would still count as hearing loss, because you would be hearing a frequency lower than you hear the others right? As far as where people's natural hearing thresholds would age, you're giving it an even more generous range than I would. I would not find it hard to believe that a person who lived a quiet lifestyle would not have an audiogram reading 5-15db below where they tested in their late teens, perhaps with 5 or so below in general and then steeping more towards 10db in the higher range, but even then, I'm assuming higher range naturally degrades more with age than low range, so again this is all random speculation.

 

[lolkas]

Well, as long as they have no T and hear well, that is fine. However, since we are all around noise all times you can forget about age here. Environment kills our hearing for 100 + years now, not age.

 

[SilverSpiral]

Well, as long as they have no T and hear well, that is fine. However, since we are all around noise all times you can forget about age here. Environment kills our hearing for 100 + years now, not age.

What me and fonky were contemplating, was his idea that people on desert islands do not have hearing degredation even into elderly age. Not average people. That was the point of our conversation. I am trying to figure out whether or not natural aging takes an effect on hearing or not just based on his theory that isolated island tribes have "perfect" (not quoting him directly but quoting my interpretation of his original theory) hearing since they have never been exposed to industrial or extreme noise. Do they also have better eyesight since they may not read or look at screens? Not saying eyes are the same as ears, but there is a degree to which you can damage your eyesight/strain it by looking at screens or reading too much right?

I'm just trying to say that, from what he had said, I got the impression that he was implying we could all have hearing the same from birth to death if we were never exposed to damaging sounds. I find that hard to believe in my stupid western mind, but am ready to believe different if I see stuff that shows otherwise. My current idea of aging gives the idea the SOME degree of hearing degredation is natural with age, but I have absolutely no data on hand to prove this, but on the otherhand whoever I was talking to also has not provided any data on the otherhand, its just hypothetical talk.

 

[Mentos]

What me and fonky were contemplating, was his idea that people on desert islands do not have hearing degredation even into elderly age. Not average people. That was the point of our conversation. I am trying to figure out whether or not natural aging takes an effect on hearing or not just based on his theory that isolated island tribes have "perfect" (not quoting him directly but quoting my interpretation of his original theory) hearing since they have never been exposed to industrial or extreme noise. Do they also have better eyesight since they may not read or look at screens? Not saying eyes are the same as ears, but there is a degree to which you can damage your eyesight/strain it by looking at screens or reading too much right?

I'm just trying to say that, from what he had said, I got the impression that he was implying we could all have hearing the same from birth to death if we were never exposed to damaging sounds. I find that hard to believe in my stupid western mind, but am ready to believe different if I see stuff that shows otherwise. My current idea of aging gives the idea the SOME degree of hearing degredation is natural with age, but I have absolutely no data on hand to prove this, but on the otherhand whoever I was talking to also has not provided any data on the otherhand, its just hypothetical talk.

Well at least Tinnitus (don't know about hearing loss) is known to people since antient times, there are reliable records for that. It proves that while lots of Tinnitus cases is caused by exposure to loud noise produced by modern society, still a natural hearing deterioration process caused by infections or ageing takes płace independently from the noise exposure.

 

[lolkas]

Well at least Tinnitus (don't know about hearing loss) is known to people since antient times, there are reliable records for that. It proves that while lots of Tinnitus cases is caused by exposure to loud noise produced by modern society, still a natural hearing deterioration process caused by infections or ageing takes płace independently from the noise exposure.

I think at old times it was more infection related or trauma since all were fighting with swords and etc. Noise is certainly was at minimal these times, but that has changed lol

 

[lymebite]

Noise is certainly was at minimal these times

I have always wondered about stonemasons (since ancient times) and blacksmiths (since the iron age). All day long - very, very noisy! Tinnitus? Hyperacusis? Hearing loss?

 

[Mario martz]

@Artemis2K

Hmmm I don't know what to make of any of this,I would like to hear from these people he treated otherwise it's just another"thanks to this clinic I'm cured"story we read all over the internet.

The thing is,I'm sitting on a cash pile that I saved for a Stemcell treatment thanks to my family and friends who put it forward to help me.Im just afraid of going to some shady ass clinic that literally can do nothing for anyone only cleanse them of their cash.All I'm saying is,I'm yet to find one convincing clinic yet.

Wait for results from Marcelo Rivolta, next april hes gonna treat stem cells in the inner ear

 

[lolkas]

I have always wondered about stonemasons (since ancient times) and blacksmiths (since the iron age). All day long - very, very noisy! Tinnitus? Hyperacusis? Hearing loss?

Not everyone was blacksmith so kinda ye, i would say they would be at high risk for sure...as well as people in military (specially after "black powder", ouuch imagine shooting cannons on regulair basis ?).

In 1900's people were mostly around noisy machinery (factory, construction, etc) there were not that many "slender" jobs. Now, since automation took place, "slender" jobs are more dominant but even there we are being screwed by such a nice technology as headphones.

I mean "smart" use of headphones won't ever cause any hearing issues, however since most of population out there has no clue what are "safe levels" you dont even have to leave your house do get NIHL.

It is nice to see that even last year there was no treatment for this condition. Now we know that something is available in South Korea, "pharma" realised that hearing aids are not "cutting it" therefore not bringing much income and now they need to come up with something that will satisfy patients.

Market is huge (estimated 20 billion dollars a year) and currently EMPTY. By empty i mean no developed drug, therapy, treatment that gets hearing back and gets Tinnitus fade away. Fortunately we have treatments available now, but unfortunately dont have solid practical results that would be verified by independent organizations/doctors or something like that.

 

[tomytl]

Wait for results from Marcelo Rivolta, next april hes gonna treat stem cells in the inner ear

are there plans to do try out stem cell based trials in the inner ear?

 

[RB2014]

As for hearing loss with age. It is different for everyone. I'm sure there are people that are 100 that have no hearing loss living on deserted islands and there are people that are 40 that lost most of their hearing as they aged. I lose 10 db every 10 years under 1k and 20db every 10 years 1k and above and I have done nothing to warrant that. Its not getting any better as I get older and from 20 years old to 42 I have taken care of my hearing.
Some people can go to 1000 rock concerts and have perfect hearing while others go to a few and lose it all. there is still so much we need to understand, but as I general rule I would say hearing degrades with age. As we all mentioned, nothing gets better or stays the same as we get older, its just a matter of how fast or slow it degrades. Hearing shouldn't be any different.

I am interested too in Marcelo and possible stem cell treatments. I am a big fan of stem cell treatments as it seems they won't have to go through the entire clinical trial process which is probably 5-6+ years min for any treatment to get approved.

 

[SilverSpiral]

As for hearing loss with age. It is different for everyone. I'm sure there are people that are 100 that have no hearing loss living on deserted islands and there are people that are 40 that lost most of their hearing as they aged. I lose 10 db every 10 years under 1k and 20db every 10 years 1k and above and I have done nothing to warrant that. Its not getting any better as I get older and from 20 years old to 42 I have taken care of my hearing.
Some people can go to 1000 rock concerts and have perfect hearing while others go to a few and lose it all. there is still so much we need to understand, but as I general rule I would say hearing degrades with age. As we all mentioned, nothing gets better or stays the same as we get older, its just a matter of how fast or slow it degrades. Hearing shouldn't be any different.

I am interested too in Marcelo and possible stem cell treatments. I am a big fan of stem cell treatments as it seems they won't have to go through the entire clinical trial process which is probably 5-6+ years min for any treatment to get approved.

What do you mean by you lose 10-20db hearing every year? Do you mean since your T onset? If you had been losing 10-20db every year since adulthood, surely youd be deaf by now, no?

 

[wags]

What do you mean by you lose 10-20db hearing every year?

He said every 10 years, fwiw,

 

[Coleoptere]

It is an average as presbyacusis is much complexer than an average. It depends on age, smoking, genetic factors and more. Theories and studies can be foundation on the internet. Also what you - supposedly - can do to slow down this process.