South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[Artemis2K]

Unfortunately I am a bit busy. School is starting very soon and I need to prepare. John wanted to wait and I had hoped we could schedule a Skype call together along with some other people talking to Shim.

Though, we probably would need to do separate Skype calls so we can get to know each other and discuss what we would want out of this.

@JohnAdams What do you think?

 

[JohnAdams]

Unfortunately I am a bit busy. School is starting very soon and I need to prepare. John wanted to wait and I had hoped we could schedule a Skype call together along with some other people talking to Shim.

Though, we probably would need to do separate Skype calls so we can get to know each other and discuss what we would want out of this.

@JohnAdams What do you think?

I dunno

 

[Daniel Lion]

Please don't drop the ball guys. Was really looking forward to hearing news from the Skype interview. In your own time...when you're ready. It will be very helpful to garner some info. I will as well, in a few weeks, as it was mentioned that the doctor is busy. I probably won't skype, but just send another polite email. I have posted my questions, please see if any resonate with you.

This condition sucks. I am really pessimistic about anything helping, especially seeing that the results from the clinic are modest. But modest is better than nothing, and it would seem if it is basically PRP, that it pretty safe. There is always a risk with invasive procedures. But reading up on PRP and Eddie A's experience it would seem the risks are minimal and the potential benefits could be great or at least better than the suck ass status quo that is many of our conditions.

Thanks for all your input people, and hard work.....truly. I hope the Shim is doing well, he has had so much experience with this procedure....how many ENTs on earth have even done injections into the ear... and not botched it up. Experience and smarts is huge. We will see...

 

[JohnAdams]

He said it would help and he will not do any online consults till the end of the month

I've now posted multiple peer reviewed science papers stating that the use of growth factors and bone marrow stem cells can recover hearing loss. What is going on in this community? People are still posting sad stories of despair and declaring that there is no cure when there is. This should be big news, yet mostly silence. There is something really wrong here. What is the deal?

 

[Artemis2K]

I've now posted multiple peer reviewed science papers stating that the use of growth factors and bone marrow stem cells can recover hearing loss. What is going on in this community? People are still posting sad stories of despair and declaring that there is no cure when there is. This should be big news, yet mostly silence. There is something really wrong here. What is the deal?

That's the downside to this forum. It's hard to keep track of because it is rather popular and there is so much going on at once. It's easy to forget or miss things and then lose track of the reference. Perhaps it would be better to make a Wordpress blog that we can frequently link to and control ourselves? That way when someone asks a previously answered question, we can just post that. As long as the Tinnitus Talk rules allow it, it should be a benefit that saves us a lot of trouble.

 

[JohnAdams]

That's the downside to this forum. It's hard to keep track of because it is rather popular and there is so much going on at once. It's easy to forget or miss things and then lose track of the reference. Perhaps it would be better to make a Wordpress blog that we can frequently link to and control ourselves? That way when someone asks a previously answered question, we can just post that. As long as the Tinnitus Talk rules allow it, it should be a benefit that saves us a lot of trouble.

I just think people are so stupidly convinced that there isn't a possible cure that they can't even accept scientific evidence and proof that there is. They are seriously waiting for their doctors to tell them there's a treatment because they worship authority.

 

[Arseny]

I'd like to participate in a Skype call and further discussion on this topic.
I'm considering going to Korea a bit later after I finish physical therapy for my neck and treatment for possible ETD.
My main concerns are possible high frequency damage and how this treatment will affect things like FX-322. I have good hearing with only 15 db loss at 10000-16000 hz in my left ear. If this treatment has potential to cause damage then I won't go.
I've already done injections into my ears near the eardrum. I'm not afraid to try intratympanic.

I know that my tinnitus will most likely fade to mild of disappear completely within a year, but I'm not going to sit around and wait. Going to try every treatment until I get completely cured from tinnitus.

@Artemis2K @JohnAdams @Daniel Lion @PDodge

 

[JohnAdams]

Has anyone here ever skyped Dr. Minbo?

If so, what's his skype name?

 

[Daniel Lion]

I googled his clinic, Minbo Shim hearing restoration South Korea, and remember seeing his Skype adress, I emailed him as you know.

JohnAdams... stay cool and don't stress. Everybody comes with different histories, perspectives, and agendas to this forum. We all have the tinnitus in common and some of us have it worse compounded with hearing loss, hyperacusis, etc.

I would consider my limited experiences with 2 ENTs as medical negligence, the first one, and the second as archaic sub parasite. I was actually given a script for Zoloft and told to sleep with the fan on. I could go on... but this is dedicated to Shim.

I know we have to think out of the box, because the box is wretched and detrimental to our life. Science and medical advances are underway... not thanks to God, but to universities, scientists and it would appear, medical practitioners who are able to think outside of the traditional hearing aid box and try something new and cutting edge.

That is our hope on the Shim thread.
Those who are interested and are not knee jerkingly dismissive of this strange enigmatic doctor, should keep the focus, be open to disappointment and not be inclined to white wash the truth.

For now I am leaning in his favour as you all know. Peace out... Daniel

 

[humptydumpty69]

I've now posted multiple peer reviewed science papers stating that the use of growth factors and bone marrow stem cells can recover hearing loss. What is going on in this community? People are still posting sad stories of despair and declaring that there is no cure when there is. This should be big news, yet mostly silence. There is something really wrong here. What is the deal?

You are making some definitive statements about something that is only potential. The evidence that you have posted, while it is very intriguing, is mostly regarding animals, and possibly things done in vitro; not to mention the last study you posted was from 2007, which is barely even relevant to current stem cell research. You are diminishing the justification of people's suffering because you believe that you have found a "cure", while you haven't even yet utilized that "cure" for yourself.

As I have said in the past, there have been a handful of others who underwent ATEOS' umbilical regiments, (and those are only the ones that I have been made aware of, many people here only observe rather than post), and they had no improvement while ATEOS realized a 50 percent improvement of his tinnitus' condition. We have already seen that Shim's audiograms barely even change, and still you say "cure". You have said recently that there is very little risk involved with a bone marrow procedure, and you write off all possibilities of infection, the fact that elderly presbycusis sufferers are at some risk of malignancy when utilizing autologous cells via localized injections, or the possibility that an ENT could well be performing a bone marrow extraction himself, something very potentially out of his field.

I would like to restate that I am nearly an advocator for these treatment concepts, and they could be something that I would like to try myself; though I have received messages on Ttalk, regarding how some of my posts have influenced people's decisions, and I absolutely empathize with this because a handful of others here have influenced my own decisions, and therefore impacted my life. Like I have parenthetically mentioned earlier, there are many people who do not post, and only observe; and I think that JohnAdams is being highly irresponsible in writing such definitive statements which have potential to effect people's lives with at least some possibility of detriment.

I think it is best to stay grounded in reality, and it is my conjecture that if we were to hypothetically see improvement with this treatment, it would be incremental, and not be a "cure" unless the patient's ailment is mild.

 

[JohnAdams]

You are making some definitive statements about something that is only potential. The evidence that you have posted, while it is very intriguing, is mostly regarding animals, and possibly things done in vitro; not to mention the last study you posted was from 2007, which is barely even relevant to current stem cell research. You are diminishing the justification of people's suffering because you believe that you have found a "cure", while you haven't even yet utilized that "cure" for yourself.

one of the studies I posted was a human trial with people suffering hearing loss utilizing IGF-1 and a very significant proportion had a complete recovery of their hearing. That's not potential, that's definitive.

 

[humptydumpty69]

one of the studies I posted was a human trial with people suffering hearing loss utilizing IGF-1 and a very significant proportion had a complete recovery of their hearing. That's not potential, that's definitive.

Again, you ignore the vast majority of substance that I explain; your means of debate seems to be nothing but offensive. I agree some of the studies are promising, and I mentioned that; but because you seem to have narrow vision, I see no point in countering you further.

Though I would say to others, utilize the information that this man shares, it is informative, but extrapolate your own opinions, and do not blindly adopt his.

 

[Arseny]

Has anyone here ever skyped Dr. Minbo?

If so, what's his skype name?

Send me a private message, your privacy settings don't allow me to start a conversation with you.

 

[JohnAdams]

Again, you ignore the vast majority of substance that I explain; your means of debate seems to be nothing but offensive. I agree some of the studies are promising, and I mentioned that; but because you seem to have narrow vision, I see no point in countering you further.

Though I would say to others, utilize the information that this man shares, it is informative, but extrapolate your own opinions, and do not blindly adopt his.

instead of your ad-hominem attacks why don't you refute my statements with sourced medical publications?

also, I don't see you calling @R. David Case

highly irresponsible

for posting an entire thread about being able to "knock out" tinnitus, or the other people pushing ayurvedic medicine or cbd oil and touting hand yoga techniques etc.

I constantly research and post published medical papers and base my claims on those, yet I get attacked by people like you far more than these others that make claims without posting links to journals.

Now go and attack @R. David Case for the claims he is making or else you're just a hypocrite.

 

[humptydumpty69]

instead of your ad-hominem attacks why don't you refute my statements with sourced medical publications?

also, I don't see you calling @R. David Case



for posting an entire thread about being able to "knock out" tinnitus, or the other people pushing ayurvedic medicine or cbd oil and touting hand yoga techniques etc.

I constantly research and post published medical papers and base my claims on those, yet I get attacked by people like you far more than these others that make claims without posting links to journals.

Now go and attack @R. David Case for the claims he is making or else you're just a hypocrite.

You're drawing a comparison between my apprehensions toward tumor/bone infection and yoga? I write rhetorically, you think that I should be reprimanding innocuous "therapies"?

I don't have extensive links to post, as the knowledge that I am citing is from books. As Lyme previously suggested to me, I could recommend to others "Stem Cell Therapy: A Rising Tide," by Dr. Neil H. Riordan, as an entry in to stem cell for the layman. It is full of studies, charts, and citations (I cannot know how accurate all of those things are, but they exist). The book is somewhat autobiographical and anecdotal as well, but it is very accessible and contains valuable information to begin some comprehension of the field.

I prefer not to continue this debate, and to instead remain amicable and collaborative; I think that your posts absolutely have value, and I am appreiative of that. I just think that you have been getting a bit carried away. I apologize if I have offended you.

 

[JohnAdams]

tumor/bone infection

I've posted medical journal quotes that state bone marrow MSC's are safe and you've only claimed there could be problems without posting links to evidence for this.

"because MSCs can be collected from the patient's own bone marrow for an autologous transplantation with little physical risk, no rejection risk, and few ethical problems"

SOURCE:
Mesenchymal Stem Cell Transplantation Accelerates Hearing Recovery through the Repair of Injured Cochlear Fibrocytes

American Journal of Pathology, The, 2007-07-01, Volume 171, Issue 1, Pages 214-226, Copyright © 2007 American Society for Investigative Pathology

 

[spedgas]

@JohnAdams I'll admit you've done your homework on this one. I can't fathom the amount of time you've spent looking up these studies. Nobody seems more convinced in itss effectiveness than you.

I feel like you're ready to seek out this treatment, but don't want to be the first one here to take on the cost or the risk.

I feel like you're dumping this information here hoping it convinces somebody else to take the risk so you don't have to.

A month ago you said you were just waiting for a passport. You've posted even more "definitive" studies since then.

You like to call people "hypocrites" on this site, but you seem to be displaying those traits yourself.

 

[humptydumpty69]

I've posted medical journal quotes that state bone marrow MSC's are safe and you've only claimed there could be problems without posting links to evidence for this.

You are talking about the usage of the MSCs, not the actual extraction (do you really need to see a study to prove elementary risks of infection?); and also not considering the sickly cell.

Riordan's aforementioned book:

"Some patients did not respond as well to their own fat cell MSCs. When we tested their cells, we learned that their cells had a reduced robustness. There was a high correlation of MSC robustness and treatment effect."

"When considering the safety of stem cells, tumor growth is a top concern."

"some studies using MSCs from older donors have been found to enhance tumor growth"

Regardless if these quotes mention bone marrow, the stem cells are created in the bone marrow, and absolutely would correlate to health and the robustness in the same way.

Edit:

By the way, this is a stem cell debate. I don't think much more is relevant to this thread aside from the risk factors and potential outcomes. This is is a vast debate, and I am under the assumption that neither JohnAdams or absolutely not myself has the knowledge to adequately be addressing it.

 

[JohnAdams]

You are talking about the usage of the MSCs, not the actual extraction (do you really need to see a study to prove elementary risks of infection?); and also not considering the sickly cell.

Riordan's aforementioned book:

"Some patients did not respond as well to their own fat cell MSCs. When we tested their cells, we learned that their cells had a reduced robustness. There was a high correlation of MSC robustness and treatment effect."

"When considering the safety of stem cells, tumor growth is a top concern."

"some studies using MSCs from older donors have been found to enhance tumor growth"

Regardless if these quotes mention bone marrow, the stem cells are created in the bone marrow, and absolutely would correlate to health and the robustness in the same way.

Edit:

By the way, this is a stem cell debate. I don't think much more is relevant to this thread aside from the risk factors and potential outcomes. This is is a vast debate, and I am under the assumption that neither JohnAdams or absolutely not myself has the knowledge to truly be adequately addressing.

That book has good reviews.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Did @BrownieBoy have this treatment? Can somebody who has had contact with him ask him please. I may be misinterpreting a post about him being just "back" and the treatment did nothing. Curious.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Bummer.....bummed. Oh well, hope and blind faith can only get you so far. Armestis2K you should still Skype with JohnAdams. I know everyone is feeling disillusioned, at least I am..."there is no scientific foundation..." Steven Heller. Perhaps that could be a question you could raise. Prospects for noise damage?... a question for JohnAdams to ask perhaps.

Before reconciling to the sad reality, that there is no scientific foundation to this being a cure, why not ask some good questions and see how the doctor responds.

Nothing to lose, more Info and feedback from a doctor involved with anything cutting edge can only benefit us. Have a look at the stem cell thread, way more expensive, but equally confusing in terms of where the science is at...actually Shim comes out smelling sweeter in comparison.

What are your thoughts everyone... it would seem if you got the money, that there is a small benefit to be had with Shim, if any...is there more? Would not Shim agree with the latter statement?

 

[JohnAdams]

there is no scientific foundation..." Steven Heller.

There is an absolute scientific foundation that certain growth factors and stem cells can restore hearing. It's been proven partly in rodents and partly in humans.

 

[Artemis2K]

Bummer.....bummed. Oh well, hope and blind faith can only get you so far. Armestis2K you should still Skype with JohnAdams. I know everyone is feeling disillusioned, at least I am..."there is no scientific foundation..." Steven Heller. Perhaps that could be a question you could raise. Prospects for noise damage?... a question for JohnAdams to ask perhaps.

Before reconciling to the sad reality, that there is no scientific foundation to this being a cure, why not ask some good questions and see how the doctor responds.

Nothing to lose, more Info and feedback from a doctor involved with anything cutting edge can only benefit us. Have a look at the stem cell thread, way more expensive, but equally confusing in terms of where the science is at...actually Shim comes out smelling sweeter in comparison.

What are your thoughts everyone... it would seem if you got the money, that there is a small benefit to be had with Shim, if any...is there more? Would not Shim agree with the latter statement?

Brownie boy was just messing around.


I am unfortunately skeptical of Heller's words. He was quite dismissive and yet the stuff John provided shows that there is enough scientific evidence suggesting there is validity. It's very weird.

 

[Artemis2K]

There is an absolute scientific foundation that certain growth factors and stem cells can restore hearing. It's been proven partly in rodents and partly in humans.

And at the very least it shows that people with minor to moderate can have treatment. Probably not so much the severe though, that may be too expensive.

 

[Daniel Lion]

There is an absolute scientific foundation that certain growth factors and stem cells can restore hearing. It's been proven partly in rodents and partly in humans.

In relation to Shim's work and results specifically? JohnAdams you're really smart, you should talk to Shim... you can put all of your amazing research skills to good by corresponding with a real practitioner, doing what you want and advocate for all of us. It would really benefit everyone to have the heavy weight contender, you, step up and communicate with a sentient doctor, and report your findings... for better or for worse.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Artemis... how can you be dismissive of Heller's words... step back for a minute. Surely Shim's work if ground breaking would garner a little attention amongst the medical community, even the press in Korea.

Heller I believe was just being honest, no conspiracies or hidden agendas, perhaps the science just isn't here yet. We are getting closer, but all of our hope and desperation won't change squat, except how we interpret data, and in this case Shim's modest claims of hearing restoration.

How about noise hearing loss and Shim....what would he say, not within 30 days, but a year or three down the road?

 

[JohnAdams]

In relation to Shim's work and results specifically? JohnAdams you're really smart, you should talk to Shim... you can put all of your amazing research skills to good by corresponding with a real practitioner, doing what you want and advocate for all of us. It would really benefit everyone to have the heavy weight contender, you, step up and communicate with a sentient doctor, and report your findings... for better or for worse.

Oh, I certainly have plans to do this. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Artemis2K]

Artemis... how can you be dismissive of Heller's words... step back for a minute. Surely Shim's work if ground breaking would garner a little attention amongst the medical community, even the press in Korea.

Heller I believe was just being honest, no conspiracies or hidden agendas, perhaps the science just isn't here yet. We are getting closer, but all of our hope and desperation won't change squat, except how we interpret data, and in this case Shim's modest claims of hearing restoration.

How about noise hearing loss and Shim....what would he say, not within 30 days, but a year or three down the road?

This is no longer just about Shim though. We have someone HERE who has claimed that PRP has worked to a small degree. Though the procedure was done differently, 30%~ reduction in tinnitus is major. He reported results from a procedure that was a lot more violent and perhaps less potent.

And, again, John has provided an abundant amount of scientific papers that convinced him of its effectiveness after being skeptical himself. Those papers that were found weren't made up, and were done by various researchers. Heller is definitely brilliant, but he's not the only one, and it is possible to be wrong.

 

[Daniel Lion]

Ok, fair play Artemis, no Heller is not God, and I was also impressed by Eddie A's numbers, 20 - 30 percent less tinnitus volume and less headaches. Better than nothing, and I would welcome those numbers into my life. Makes habituation and daily life easier, still a challenge, but better.

Artemis2k, I'm in a shit situation, because I have hearing loss that's significant... You mentioned it would be more expensive... because more injections... what do you think about cases like mine. Could you or JohnAdams pose that question to Shim for sufferers in my boat. Has he had any success with noise induced hearing loss?
Cheers, I will pop off an email as well.

Also curious how long the injection hole takes to heal, since we will all be flying. Does this kind of injection affect swimming in the future? My major form of exercise.
Peace.

 

[JohnAdams]

Ok, fair play Artemis, no Heller is not God, and I was also impressed by Eddie A's numbers, 20 - 30 percent less tinnitus volume and less headaches. Better than nothing, and I would welcome those numbers into my life. Makes habituation and daily life easier, still a challenge, but better.

Artemis2k, I'm in a shit situation, because I have hearing loss that's significant... You mentioned it would be more expensive... because more injections... what do you think about cases like mine. Could you or JohnAdams pose that question to Shim for sufferers in my boat. Has he had any success with noise induced hearing loss?
Cheers, I will pop off an email as well.

Also curious how long the injection hole takes to heal, since we will all be flying. Does this kind of injection affect swimming in the future? My major form of exercise.
Peace.

Do a google search for platelet rich plasma in myringoplasty.