South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[Daniel Lion]

I did, thanks for the recommendation, fascinating...I had no idea, why isn't this used more often? Why do steroids trump PRP in hospitals? Cheaper? Doctors have less experience with PRP?

Why is the Tinnitus Talk community not interested or intrigued by this technology?
Stem cells not applied into the ear, are costing people between 35 and 70 thousand US. The injections into the tympanic membrane seems so much more efficient and practical.

Why so little interest... am I missing something?

 

[Zeneth]

Why so little interest... am I missing something?

Probably because nobody here has actually done it. I think if at least 1 person here steps up, gets it done, gets good results, and can vouch for it. Then it'll become WAY more popular.

It's risky and scary, even if the science says it works.

 

[JohnAdams]

Why so little interest... am I missing something?

Not everyone is good at researching, nor do they have the education to interpret published medical papers, nor do they have the confidence or motivation to educated themselves.

Sadly we are in the same mental state as middle age Christianity. People did not study the Bible or try to understand what it said, mostly because the Bible was in Latin and unaccessible, and it wasn't about learning the Bible, it was about doing and believing what the Priests told you. They were they authority figure and to disagree with them made you a heretic and thanks to "St." Thomas Aquinas's writings, liable to be put to death.

We are intellectually in the same position today. People look at "scientists" and "doctors" as the priesthood and unless they or the government officially pronounce something people don't believe it. It is because people don't realize that these authority figures are just people too and in some cases are complete morons. Many doctors actually get aggravated if you try and them what you think is wrong with you because they feel like all knowing priests and we are just the laity.

 

[Artemis2K]

Ok, fair play Artemis, no Heller is not God, and I was also impressed by Eddie A's numbers, 20 - 30 percent less tinnitus volume and less headaches. Better than nothing, and I would welcome those numbers into my life. Makes habituation and daily life easier, still a challenge, but better.

Artemis2k, I'm in a shit situation, because I have hearing loss that's significant... You mentioned it would be more expensive... because more injections... what do you think about cases like mine. Could you or JohnAdams pose that question to Shim for sufferers in my boat. Has he had any success with noise induced hearing loss?
Cheers, I will pop off an email as well.

Also curious how long the injection hole takes to heal, since we will all be flying. Does this kind of injection affect swimming in the future? My major form of exercise.
Peace.

How much loss do you have? Even if you can't get a full restoration, a little would be better than nothing. It would make it easier to wake up in the morning. You may be able to have more injections later on when you can afford it. Shim's results did show profoundly deaf people get treatment, but it appears that it takes a lot.

You may even be able to have it cost less down the road.

 

[JohnAdams]

Probably because nobody here has actually done it. I think if at least 1 person here steps up, gets it done, gets good results, and can vouch for it. Then it'll become WAY more popular.

You think so? I think that if someone on this site gets this treatment and comes back and declares success that it will go largely ignored and people will still post diatribes claiming there is no cure.

 

[Zeneth]

You think so? I think that if someone on this site gets this treatment and comes back and declares success that it will go largely ignored and people will still post diatribes claiming there is no cure.

Yeah, maybe, I don't know. At least for me, if someone here could vouch for it I'd definitely book a flight.

Neuromod gained some traction once those testimonials came out.

 

[Artemis2K]

You think so? I think that if someone on this site gets this treatment and comes back and declares success that it will go largely ignored and people will still post diatribes claiming there is no cure.

I think after someone goes and it works, someone should make a new thread, put it on Treatments, explain why, and then provide scientific examples to back it up. At least that would get attention.

 

[RaZaH]

Getting this guy on the site would be a good start , I am sure he could use the clients and as far as I can tell he has been invited. I have lots of questions.

 

[JohnAdams]

I think after someone goes and it works, someone should make a new thread, put it on Treatments, explain why, and then provide scientific examples to back it up. At least that would get attention.

we shall see.

 

[JohnAdams]

Yeah, maybe, I don't know. At least for me, if someone here could vouch for it I'd definitely book a flight.

Neuromod gained some traction once those testimonials came out.

there's also testimonials on Minbo's site. So what's the difference? Production values?

 

[RaZaH]

To be honest, some of the testimonials on Minbo's site feel a bit dodgy.

 

[JohnAdams]

To be honest, some of the testimonials on Minbo's site feel a bit dodgy.

just watched one that said he was getting dizzy and after the treatment everything came back normal. that is basically the exact same thing Dana White described. we need to play a game to decide who goes first.

 

[RaZaH]

At some point a year ago or so , I was pretty close to going.

 

[JohnAdams]

Growth Factors in PRP.

"Numerous proteins are contained in the alpha-granules of platelets: platelet-derived growth factor (PDGF), transforming growth factor (TGF), platelet factor interleukin (IL), platelet-derived angiogenesis factor (PDAF), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), epidermal growth factor (EGF), insulin-like growth factor IGF and fibronectin"

Source:
Growth Factor Content in PRP and their applicability in medicine.
Article· Literature Review (PDF Available) in Journal of biological regulators and homeostatic agents 26(2 Suppl 1):3-22 · April 2012



"Cell proliferation was induced in the sensory epithelium by transforming growth factor alpha (TGF-alpha) in a dose-dependent manner. Proliferation was also induced by epidermal growth factor (EGF) when supplemented with insulin, but not EGF alone. These observations suggest that stimulation of the EGF receptors by TGF-alpha binding, or EGF (plus insulin) binding, stimulates cell proliferation in the mature mammalian vestibular sensory epithelium."

Source:
Induction of cell proliferation in mammalian inner-ear sensory epithelia by transforming growth factor alpha and epidermal growth factor.
H Yamashita and E C Oesterle
PNAS April 11, 1995 92 (8) 3152-3155;



"Hair cells, the sensory receptors of the mammalian inner ear, have long been thought to be produced only during embryogenesis, and postnatal hair cell loss is considered to be irreversible and is associated with permanent hearing and balance deficits. Little is known about the factors that regulate hair cell genesis and differentiation. The mitogenic effects of insulin and transforming growth factor α (TGFα) were assayed in vivo in normal and drug‐damaged rat inner ear. Tritiated thymidine and autoradiographic techniques were used to identify cells synthesizing DNA. Simultaneous infusion of TGFα and insulin directly into the inner ear of adult rats stimulated DNA synthesis in the vestibular sensory receptor epithelium. New supporting cells and putative new hair cells were produced. Infusion of insulin alone or TGFα alone failed to stimulate significant DNA synthesis. These results suggest that exogenous growth factors may have utility for therapeutic treatment of hearing and balance disorders in vivo."

Source:
Transforming growth factor α with insulin stimulates cell proliferation in vivo in adult rat vestibular sensory epithelium
A.L. Kuntz

E.C. Oesterle
First published: 06 January 1999
https://doi.org/10.1002/(SICI)1096-9861(19980928)399:3<413::AID-CNE9>3.0.CO;2-3


So.........................................

 

[Contrast]

Over-caution of government. Ironically hurting people while trying to prevent tragedy. Though we do need protection, we clearly need them to rethink their process.

the only thing they are trying to protect are the happy merchants selling hearing aids and TRT therapies.

 

[Artemis2K]

the only thing they are trying to protect are the happy merchants selling hearing aids and TRT therapies.

Gotta love cronyism. :/

 

[Zeneth]

there's also testimonials on Minbo's site. So what's the difference? Production values?

I would trust a testimonial from here 100x more than those ones haha.

 

[JohnAdams]

Neuromod gained some traction once those testimonials came out.

It was also hyped by certain people of influence here.

 

[JohnAdams]

the only thing they are trying to protect are the happy merchants selling hearing aids and TRT therapies.

Everything is about merchants. And they have rights to markets like medieval lords had rights over their land and the serfs. There's a huge system in place to protect that.

 

[JohnAdams]

Dr. Minbo Shim also offers a treatment for smelling loss (asnomia),

Here is a paper about the use of PRP for that, weirdly enough published in the International Tinnitus Journal:

"After the third and finally the fourth therapy, 4 of 5 patients said that "their smell came back", while the remaining one patient said that he could smell a lot but not everything. Conclusion: Based on our results, platelet rich plasma administration to the olfactory region could be a promising, last chance therapy for complete anosmia."


http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/articles/anosmia-treatment-by-platelet-rich-plasma-injection.html

 

[JohnAdams]

 

[Arseny]

Hey everyone,
I took a flight to another city to see a very good otoneurologist.
I have discovered that there are several local clinics that do PRP and one of them on the phone said that they can do intratympanic PRP if they are sure about safety. They have an ENT there. They said they use their own formula for joints, but can do other formula (Shim's) if they deem it to be safe. I asked specifically about this. It seems that as long as doctor gives a green light they can do it. I suppose price will be under 2000$ for everything.
I'll have an appointment there within a few days.

Honestly I'm on the fence about this treatment, since you have 1 in 5 chance of high frequency hearing loss. (according to audiograms from Shim's website)
I hear a loud 15000 hz hiss with some other mild low tones and low pitch tinnitus in my left ear. I'm mainly concerned about hissing noise. It's literally a Russian roulette for me since high frequency loss could aggravate tinnitus and it's already very intrusive.

Yesterday I did an audiogram and after Ipidacrine injections I know have perfect 10 db across all frequencies up to 16000 Hz meaning tinnitus is probably coming from nerve damage (cochlear synaptopathy). I think I have slight speech in noise issues.

"In the opinion of the author, the treatment should not be performed against tinnitus, when the patient has a very good hearing in high frequencies, because the risk of having the high frequencies destroyed is high." @vaka

I'm thinking about trying an injection alongside ear canal first into the space near the ear drum where doctors did Ipidacrine injections with Lidocaine. Lidocaine is ototoxic and I didn't have any adverse reaction. Actually I gained 20 db at 10-16 kHz in my left ear. I'm going to do another audiogram today to confirm this.
So I think it's pretty safe and relatively close to auditory nerve so I might see some results. If doctors refuse to do it I might try to inject it into my neck into c1-c2 like @EddieA did.

I've talked with @JohnAdams and his research is very solid. It seems that this treatment has great potential.

So guys, what do you think? I don't want to take a stupid risk and 1 in 5 chanse of getting hearing loss is pretty big gamble.
@Artemis2K @humptydumpty69 @Daniel Lion @Contrast @RaZaH @PDodge @spedgas @1000

 

[humptydumpty69]

Hey everyone,
I took a flight to another city to see a very good otoneurologist.
I have discovered that there are several local clinics that do PRP and one of them on the phone said that they can do intratympanic PRP if they are sure about safety. They have an ENT there. They said they use their own formula for joints, but can do other formula (Shim's) if they deem it to be safe. I asked specifically about this. It seems that as long as doctor gives a green light they can do it. I suppose price will be under 2000$ for everything.
I'll have an appointment there within a few days.

Honestly I'm on the fence about this treatment, since you have 1 in 5 chance of high frequency hearing loss. (according to audiograms from Shim's website)
I hear a loud 15000 hz hiss with some other mild low tones and low pitch tinnitus in my left ear. I'm mainly concerned about hissing noise. It's literally a Russian roulette for me since high frequency loss could aggravate tinnitus and it's already very intrusive.

Yesterday I did an audiogram and after Ipidacrine injections I know have perfect 10 db across all frequencies up to 16000 Hz meaning tinnitus is probably coming from nerve damage (cochlear synaptopathy). I think I have slight speech in noise issues.

"In the opinion of the author, the treatment should not be performed against tinnitus, when the patient has a very good hearing in high frequencies, because the risk of having the high frequencies destroyed is high." @vaka

I'm thinking about trying an injection alongside ear canal first into the space near the ear drum where doctors did Ipidacrine injections with Lidocaine. Lidocaine is ototoxic and I didn't have any adverse reaction. Actually I gained 20 db at 10-16 kHz in my left ear. I'm going to do another audiogram today to confirm this.
So I think it's pretty safe and relatively close to auditory nerve so I might see some results. If doctors refuse to do it I might try to inject it into my neck into c1-c2 like @EddieA did.

I've talked with @JohnAdams and his research is very solid. It seems that this treatment has great potential.

So guys, what do you think? I don't want to take a stupid risk and 1 in 5 chanse of getting hearing loss is pretty big gamble.
@Artemis2K @humptydumpty69 @Daniel Lion @Contrast @RaZaH @PDodge @spedgas @1000

Firstly, I think it is awesome that you are undertaking an action orient regarding PRP, and I thank you for propelling our mostly stagnant conversation forward.

I think that it is still unknown to us why there is potential for HF loss, and if we could understand why, we could better make decisions for ourselves as to if treatment is individually applicable. Do we know that PRP in general has potential for HF damage, or just that Shim's cocktail has that potential? I could consider that if we are to assume that Shim's therapy has efficacy, then we should also assume that his solution to HF damage (which he claims is more quantity of the same treatment) is also efficacious?

I think that if you do chose to do an intratympanic injection, it is important to request PRP be distributed to the injection site's ear drum perforation. It would be great to minimize the 1% possibility of healing irregularity.

As far as attempting to self-administer intra-articular injections, I would strongly advise against this, especially when it pertains to neck or back; though if you are trained, and/or you simply know your capability better than I do, who am I to tell you not to? I didn't realize that @EddieA's injection was self-administered, is this accurate?

We should keep in mind that no stem cells would be at work here, no vitamins or other additives that Shim has deemed, in conjunction, relevant and therapeutic.

The clinic can confirm that there will be viscosity of the PRP serum?

Also, you say, "they have an ENT there," almost like it could be an afterthought for this clinic. I would definitely look in to his personal credentials, and would be much more comfortable if he were somewhat aged, and with experience. Intratympanic injections are no joke.

 

[Arseny]

Firstly, I think it is awesome that you are undertaking an action orient regarding PRP, and I thank you for propelling our mostly stagnant conversation forward.

I think that it is still unknown to us why there is potential for HF loss, and if we could understand why, we could better make decisions for ourselves as to if treatment is individually applicable. Do we know that PRP in general has potential for HF damage, or just that Shim's cocktail has that potential? I could consider that if we are to assume that Shim's therapy has efficacy, then we should also assume that his solution to HF damage (which he claims is more quantity of the same treatment) is also efficacious?

I think that if you do chose to do an intratympanic injection, it is important to request PRP be distributed to the injection site's ear drum perforation. It would be great to minimize the 1% possibility of healing irregularity.

As far as attempting to self-administer intra-articular injections, I would strongly advise against this, especially when it pertains to neck or back; though if you are trained, and/or you simply know your capability better than I do, who am I to tell you not to? I didn't realize that @EddieA's injection was self-administered, is this accurate?

We should keep in mind that no stem cells would be at work here, no vitamins or other additives that Shim has deemed, in conjunction, relevant and therapeutic.

The clinic can confirm that there will be viscosity of the PRP serum?

Also, you say, "they have an ENT there," almost like it could be an afterthought for this clinic. I would definitely look in to his personal credentials, and would be much more comfortable if he were somewhat aged, and with experience. Intratympanic injections are no joke.

No, Eddie did them at the clinic.
I just finished consultation with otoneurologist.
He said that prp might be dangerous in my situation, because it can cause an allergic reaction. I have pretty bad atopic dermatitis right now. He also said that I can't use steroids for the next 6 months since I used them 3 times already and 8 must get allergies under control without steroids and I should check my hormones and stuff related to it.

He also diagnosed me with Chiari malformation (seen on MRI) and my c1 is kinda connected to the skull (I don't know how to explain it properly). He said it's from my birth trauma. He is one of the rare specialists in the country who specializes in Chiari. I also have problems with blood outflow from my brain.

He said I also have ETD. He said that euctachian tube is wide and has bad response. It's from nose problems.
He said that I have bad hearing at low frequencies especially in my left ear. He tested it with some metal thing and said my response to 125 hz was very bad.

He also confirmed TTTS.

He also said that MRI probably spiked tinnitius because of vibration. He said that it's much more dangerous than noise through air. He said same thing about headphones. That they probably caused damage through bone conductivity.

Basically it was the most depressing doctor appointment in my life.

But the most important part.

HE DID INTRATYMPANIC MESENCHYMAL STEM CELLS FROM BONE MARROW BEFORE.

So there is at least one doctor in Russia who can do this. He told me he does 3 injections, but no more, since it might have adverse effect. He doesn't practice this type of treatment for some reason any more.
Last time he did it few years ago.
But he told me he could do it.

I'm going to go to the center where they harvest stem cells to talk about this.

@JohnAdams @humptydumpty69 @Daniel Lion @Artemis2K @1000 @PDodge @Contrast @RaZaH @spedgas

 

[Daniel Lion]

Hi Arseny..... I am shocked and amazed to hear this.
First - Thank you. Thank you for telling us, thank you so much!!!!
Second - do your research, ask your questions, and listen to your doctor. The doctor sounds consciousnesses and capable, and far more learned than myself.
Third - my hearing is shot, so I don't have much to lose, but your case sounds more delicate. Ask your doc and way the pros and cons together, I like your idea of perhaps getting an injection close to the desired spot, and see what happens,erring on the side of caution. See what the doctor says.
Fourth - you are a courageous and awesome human, you have my complete respect, admiration, and love.
My prayers are with you.
I wish I could be more helpful, please know I am sincerely grateful and thankful for informing us and if there is anything I can do, let me know.
Best of luck, you are awesome.

 

[Artemis2K]

No, Eddie did them at the clinic.
I just finished consultation with otoneurologist.
He said that prp might be dangerous in my situation, because it can cause an allergic reaction. I have pretty bad atopic dermatitis right now. He also said that I can't use steroids for the next 6 months since I used them 3 times already and 8 must get allergies under control without steroids and I should check my hormones and stuff related to it.

He also diagnosed me with Chiari malformation (seen on MRI) and my c1 is kinda connected to the skull (I don't know how to explain it properly). He said it's from my birth trauma. He is one of the rare specialists in the country who specializes in Chiari. I also have problems with blood outflow from my brain.

He said I also have ETD. He said that euctachian tube is wide and has bad response. It's from nose problems.
He said that I have bad hearing at low frequencies especially in my left ear. He tested it with some metal thing and said my response to 125 hz was very bad.

He also confirmed TTTS.

He also said that MRI probably spiked tinnitius because of vibration. He said that it's much more dangerous than noise through air. He said same thing about headphones. That they probably caused damage through bone conductivity.

Basically it was the most depressing doctor appointment in my life.

But the most important part.

HE DID INTRATYMPANIC MESENCHYMAL STEM CELLS FROM BONE MARROW BEFORE.

So there is at least one doctor in Russia who can do this. He told me he does 3 injections, but no more, since it might have adverse effect. He doesn't practice this type of treatment for some reason any more.
Last time he did it few years ago.
But he told me he could do it.

I'm going to go to the center where they harvest stem cells to talk about this.

@JohnAdams @humptydumpty69 @Daniel Lion @Artemis2K @1000 @PDodge @Contrast @RaZaH @spedgas

That's awesome. I'm happy you found a possible solution and I hope it works out.

 

[RaZaH]

When I was in touch with Shim , I got a feeling that he was dismissive about the hi freq loss , also somewhat lacking knowledge about hearing in general , sounds weird since that is his field but that is how it came across.
This is why I decided not to go even though we had settled the price and the details.

 

[JohnAdams]

also somewhat lacking knowledge about hearing in general

very interesting, can you elaborate on this?

 

[RaZaH]

In short he said that people will have T at the same freq as their hearing damage and that 14khz was so high in freq that it would not bother anyone !?

As for Hi freq loss he said that no one had complained about that but he did not and was not planning on measuring higher then 8khz.

 

[Artemis2K]

In short he said that people will have T at the same freq as their hearing damage and that 14khz was so high in freq that it would not bother anyone !?

As for Hi freq loss he said that no one had complained about that but he did not and was not planning on measuring higher then 8khz.

He must have changed his mind then when we talked. He didn't seem to mind discussing higher frequencies after I told him about my favorite instrument being the violin and how it sounding duller made me sad.