South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

seemingly more than just a visit,
What is the evidence of this? Were there joint publications? Press releases highlighting an on-going relationship?

I'm not sure what you think constitutes a scam or how Stanford is critical to anything. It seems very likely that he is a doctor who works at or runs a stem cell clinic (or two). There are similar clinics all over the world.

If you are worried about the claims about hearing, the reality is that there are very few approved stem cell treatments - leukemia and ?? - so any claims beyond that are unproved in a regulatory/FDA sense. Some people would then say that any claims about hearing (or anything else) are a scam and others would say buyer beware. There's debate in the US, and perhaps in other parts of the world, about how tightly or loosely these clinics should be regulated. If you look at the web pages of clinics in the US in addition to the claims of all the things they can treat, there will be some language about treatment not being approved. I have no idea what the regulations are in Korea or Russia. With all of these clinics, you have some testimonials and in this case apparently audiograms from happy customers. You don't see testimonials of people who weren't helped or were harmed.
 
@Aaron123 completely agree, just one thing though. Famous and other sportsman in US would fly to europe where FDA does not exist to fix their issues with joints and etc. So please, keep FDA out far away, they have their own interrest in medicene and other things that they ban/approve.
 
What is the evidence of this? Were there joint publications? Press releases highlighting an on-going relationship?

I'm not sure what you think constitutes a scam or how Stanford is critical to anything. It seems very likely that he is a doctor who works at or runs a stem cell clinic (or two). There are similar clinics all over the world.

If you are worried about the claims about hearing, the reality is that there are very few approved stem cell treatments - leukemia and ?? - so any claims beyond that are unproved in a regulatory/FDA sense. Some people would then say that any claims about hearing (or anything else) are a scam and others would say buyer beware. There's debate in the US, and perhaps in other parts of the world, about how tightly or loosely these clinics should be regulated. If you look at the web pages of clinics in the US in addition to the claims of all the things they can treat, there will be some language about treatment not being approved. I have no idea what the regulations are in Korea or Russia. With all of these clinics, you have some testimonials and in this case apparently audiograms from happy customers. You don't see testimonials of people who weren't helped or were harmed.
I gave up on looking for where I thought I saw that, so nevermind.
 
Ok well then you are basically saying that all work that being done by hearing restoration project is nothing ? their project is so far up-to schedule.

A number of people seem to have some misunderstanding about stem cells. What HRP is doing and what this clinic (or any of these clinics) is doing are two very different things.

There seems to be this notion that you can take "stem cells" and inject them into a part of the body and that they will know what is damaged and become whatever tissue is needed. That's not how it works. First off, there are many different stem cells so you would need to be specific about what stem cells. For example, with leukemia, hematopoietic stem cells are harvested from the bone marrow. These cells naturally become blood cells so they can in fact be injected and create new blood cells with little or no additional intervention. Injecting mesenchymal stem cells (MSC) taken from fat would not help because they naturally become bone, cartilage, etc.

There is no analog for the ear. You can't just take stem cells from bone marrow or fat or any place else and inject them into the ear and expect them to develop into hair cells or auditory neurons . (I believe this is @HomeoHebbian's point.)

In contrast to adult stem cells, embryonic stem cells can become many different types of cells - they are pluripotent. And yet, injecting them into the inner ear will not automatically regenerate hair cells. There's a fundamental difference between generation (development) and regeneration. Even during development, stem cells don't innately "know" what to turn into. There are numerous signalling pathways that serve to guide a cell to its specific fate. This signalling happens endogenously during development, but if you were to inject embryonic stem cells into the ear, there is no automatic signalling to guide the cell to become a hair cell.

With respect to hearing, what HRP, Stanford, Harvard, and others are working on is understanding and attempting to replicate the signalling necessary to guide a stem cell, either an embryonic or induced pluripotent SC, to a particular fate, e.g., a hair cell. An example of this on a large scale is the "ear in a dish" developed by folks at Indiana University (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7461/full/nature12298.html).

This is obviously very different than what any of these stem cell clinic are doing. I encourage anyone with an interest in the differences between development and regeneration to read this paper: http://dev.biologists.org/content/142/9/1561.abstract

So if stem cells aren't regenerating hair cells, is there any MOA by which they could improve anything ear related? My understanding is that there is some evidence (not sure how good it is) that MSCs can have anti-inflammatory effects (e.g., http://www.nature.com/mt/journal/v20/n1/full/mt2011211a.html) which could be beneficial depending on the underlying damage. Again, I'm not sure how settled this is, but this has nothing to do with regeneration.

An aside regarding joints/cartilage: many/most/all of these clinics use adipose derived stem cells which are mesenchymal stem cells (MSC). MSCs can naturally become cartilage. Thus we are more in the leukemia case than the ear case in terms of plausible MOA, and there are clinical trials underway to understand the effect of MSCs on arthritis and similar conditions. Additionally, in the US, at least one reputable institution (i.e., not a for profit stem cell clinic) performs stem cell injections for arthritis (https://www.emoryhealthcare.org/sports-medicine/stem-cell-treatment.html). However, they are not claiming regeneration of cartilage: "There is some limited data suggesting an ability to regenerate a portion of the cartilage that may be worn down in the patient's joint. Whether or not the cartilage regenerates has little correlation with relief of pain. In cases of more advanced arthritis, we are less likely to see any cartilage regeneration." Thus even in that case, the actual MOA isn't clear.
 
@Aaron123 Thank you for the very detailed post.

In addition to Aaron's write-up, an article was published in the Korean Journal of Audiology last year about the current status of Stem Cell treatments for hearing loss (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4582452/). This is a good summary of what has been done and what still needs to be done before we can begin to start administering Stem Cell treatments related to hearing/the ear in humans.

I am hopeful, however, that some real great progress will come out of the field in the next five to ten years. Stem Cells have the full backing of the medical community and are on the forefront of regenerative medicine. We only grow more knowledgeable each and every day, and breakthroughs can be around any turn.
 
Great post Aaron, thank you.

Don't think we are too naive, we just want to understand how a stem cells clinic might have better results than others regarding hearing loss or T. This way we get a better understanding of everything, because people like you will contribute.

We can't just say "ok, there is nothing in 2016, this is another scam, we have to wait". Maybe we loose touch with reality sometimes, but we're quicky back into it, don't worry ;)

I don't think this clinic is saying they are generating new cells. What I understand is that they try to help the repairing process of damaged cells with growth factors. But I don't know what is a growth factor exactly and how it makes a difference with regeneration attempts.

Also, we should not forget that some people here spent thousands of dollars in stem cells treatments. Some of them say they saw no improvement, others like Ateos say it was a life-changing decision. I really don't know what conclusions are to be made.
 
Hearing loss cures in 5-10 years? No way. Not a chance.
That is not what we want to hear (-;
But I am glad that you take the effort to post this on this forum. What I understand is that you are very knowledgeable.
It is so easy to get get caught up in a frenzy of hope.
I just hope that there is room for relief between where we are no and an actual cure for inner ear hair cell/nerve damage.
Also @Aaron123 an excellent post. I downloaded the document you suggested.
Read, read, read...that is all I can do at the moment.
In a few years time I will be able to better understand the different research. Especially the ones that are written for the layman (-;
I hope in the meantime natural adaptation of my brain will make this condition more bearable.
Patience..........
 
Hearing loss cures in 5-10 years? No way. Not a chance. Also, one doesn't simply inject stem cells into the ear and expect hair cells and nerve fibers to be replaced. This thread has completely lost touch with reality.

On the site of this clinic results and many audiograms are shown with improvements. Some small and insignificant but many times improvement of 20 to 30 Db are claimed. What do you make of it? Is it all scam? Placebo is not enough I should to explain it away.
 
I'm still trying to get specific validation of the Korean clinic. If what the Korean clinic says is true, and even if it was just reversing inflammation to restore function, I think this could accelerate the hearing regeneration study because of the damage reversal and function improvement without haircell growth because the haircell growth treatments would be less required.
 
If you look at the past, within reason, skeptics have usually been proven wrong. Fly like a bird, lol! Y'all keep dreamin' never gonna happen.
 
On the site of this clinic results and many audiograms are shown with improvements. Some small and insignificant but many times improvement of 20 to 30 Db are claimed. What do you make of it? Is it all scam? Placebo is not enough I should to explain it away.

I have read that in a few studies the importance of myelin sheath on haircells was significant to hearing, and made a large difference. So, possibly, that could explain this. The Korean clinic could just be giving weakened haircells new life. That is, if everything they claim is legitimate.
 
I have read that in a few studies the importance of myelin sheath on haircells was significant to hearing, and made a large difference. So, possibly, that could explain this. The Korean clinic could just be giving weakened haircells new life. That is, if everything they claim is legitimate.

weakend, well if you have 25% you can still dont notice change in hearing, when those 25% are gone then its it
 
I'm still trying to get specific validation of the Korean clinic. If what the Korean clinic says is true, and even if it was just reversing inflammation to restore function, I think this could accelerate the hearing regeneration study because of the damage reversal and function improvement without haircell growth because the haircell growth treatments would be less required.

I would say then in order to increasu your results, having healthy diet (kontains lots of healthy fats that are directly responsible for myletin prodiction is needed.

Pretty sure regeneration is taking place, we just dont know how efficient is it (i.e. how many shots you will require)
 
I would say then in order to increasu your results, having healthy diet (kontains lots of healthy fats that are directly responsible for myletin prodiction is needed.

Pretty sure regeneration is taking place, we just dont know how efficient is it (i.e. how many shots you will require)
Vitamin D is also great for myelin, perhaps best of them all. I am currently trying to have my Vitamin D up to 80 at least. 100 is the max recommended.
 
We should all put money into an account to send a TT member to one of these clinics.
I have no doubt that Tinnitus Talk would sponsor such a thing, as well as others such as Hearing Heath Foundation.

The key way to validate the Korean clinic is to get the Heller Lab to give input about Shim Minbo. I tried emailing Megan Ealy, but no response. Despite the amount of digital footprints that Shim Minbo has left to have made me believe his legitimacy, I still want that email from the Heller Lab. I have also requested HHF to look into it.

Why? Because: http://m.blog.naver.com/medsem77/220043550433 (use Google translate) and https://hellerlab.stanford.edu/2014/04/lab-meeting-with-good-food/

Could this be what we have been looking for? I think so. I am passed cynicism and have reached cautious (yet confident) optimism.

If this is legitimate, maybe a hearing research organization could invite him over for an interview, or pay him to demonstrate his miracle procedure so that other ENTs can replicate it. Perhaps somehow an organization or two would be willing to sponsor a trip to South Korea for a small group of people. This is just hopeful speculation, but I would think that they would want to accelerate things so that his supposed treatment reached the American market sooner. I know I would love to have my ability to listen to music back, the loud multi-toned tinnitus gone, the dull ear gone, and a better ability to hear what people are saying. It's a shame I am unemployed and broke right now, otherwise I would high-tail it over there.
 
Yes I wrote that before ;)

I asked Shim Minbo to register on TT, so we can ask him questions directly. Let's see if he comes.

He made quite a bold statement in his last email. I'll ask him if I can past it here.
 
"growth factor,
I read somewhere that a growth factor could allow stem cells that apparently are still present in the inner ear to start "healing".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_factor
But getting this growth factor right is extremely complex and has not yet been achieved for the inner ear.
Also I can see that we need not just one growth factor.
 
I think it's not all good or bad. I believe this Korean treatment has a slight chance to improve things a bit, but nothing predictable... It's a lot of money so a difficult decision.
 
I don't get what you mean. Some of us need improvement now, even if it's not a lot.
What I do is read what I can. It will take years, but that is the only way to see the difference between fact or fiction.

This is how I see it guys. Current treatment is mix of PRP + stem cells.

I don't think they shoot extracted stuff "raw" (I might be wrong). Looks like they take bone marrow and/or fat, get cells from one and mix it with blood/fat?

That mix does look like prp+stem cells. It kind of makes sense to mix bone marrow and fat cells together since all nerve fibers are "fatty".

Basically when I got reply to my email he said that he injects in to middle ear and makes it stay there for 30 min. S I expect single procedure that involves both ears to take about 2h.

I don't think they will draw bone marrow or anything else 2nd time, so possibly while patient will be waiting a week for next shot, they harvest them and 2nd shot is even "stronger" ? Just guessing on this one.

P.S.

A lot of clinics and researches call stem cells "growth factors", because that's what they do "grow".
 
I don't get what you mean. Some of us need improvement now, even if it's not a lot.

Many of us need improvement now, but well let's be frank, I've been here 3 years and seen many saying this and then all brake and hope too, and meds dont come out just like that, 5 years minimum.
 

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