The Story of Gaby Olthuis

[dan]

Since this subject is also being discussed on the Yuku forum, I'd like to show a good suggestion posted by one of their posters:

All of the whining in this thread got me thinking. What if the admins were to create a new sub-forum called "Tinnitus Discussion" to separate the posts that don't directly help people from the "Support" part of the website? That way if anyone would like to pretend that bad things don't happen in real life, and ignore the people who suffer the most, they could go to the Support sub-forum and avoid the Discussions sub-forum. by poster Thend.

 

[billie48]

Most welcome, Martin. Keep up the spirit of positivity and hope for the future, buddy. I am off to fishing now and it is already noon here in Vancouver. I have said enough about the subject and I hope newer T members stay focused on the positive messages they are getting from the many positive posts here on TT. Bad things happen. We just need to stay focused on the positive. Stick to the Positivity Thread. Those are great news about members actually enjoying life despite T.

 

[Michael2013]

Since this subject is also being discussed on the Yuku forum,

It's not a discussion. It's the same debate about why this was posted in a support forum in the first place.

Tell us, Dan. What did you accomplish by posting this here as opposed to someplace where people know little about tinnitus?

 

[MattK]

Quite honestly, posting a story like this on a SUPPORT forum seems a bit like trolling. As others have said, we all already know the horrors of tinnitus. Send this somewhere where people don't know about it. But congrats, you did manage to upset a few people and actually make them more anxious about their tinnitus. So if that was the goal, then well done.

 

[dan]

But congrats, you did manage to upset a few people and actually make them more anxious about their tinnitus. So if that was the goal, then well done.

Please refrain from making insinuations. It is not inline with the forum's netiquette.
What you say was not my goal whatsoever. If I made a few people upset, I apologize for that, but evidently the thread is staying, so get over it already.

 

[Markku]

Thread moved to Health Talk, which is probably closest to appropriate. Support wasn't.

We want to be a community-orientated forum where the majority of our members are able to influence our important actions.

Therefore, I have created a poll within this thread. See it at the top of the thread. Please vote. The poll is anonymous.

 

[MattK]

But congrats, you did manage to upset a few people and actually make them more anxious about their tinnitus. So if that was the goal, then well done.

Please refrain from making insinuations. It is not inline with the forum's netiquette.
What you say was not my goal whatsoever. If I made a few people upset, I apologize for that, but evidently the thread is staying, so get over it already.

Ah, I see. So posting horror stories on a support forum where the majority of posters have expressed their dislike is a part of the forum's "netiquette"? And again, what exactly do you think you accomplished by posting this here?

I am still holding out hope that the story gets moved. I'm not asking for it to be deleted but moved out of the support category.

 

[Markku]

I am still holding out hope that the story gets moved. I'm not asking for it to be deleted but moved out of the support category.

It is moved now. Please also see the poll above the thread.

 

[Erlend]

I think: NO

This isn't about freedom of speech or whatever. The point is; dividing the web into different sections with different purposes is a good thing

There are enough depressing tinnitus-related sites. Tinnitus Talk is the one with a positive outlook, but based on science and reality, not "just breath away the tinnitus after drinking this tea!"-bullshit

I don't think this kind of news serves any good purpose at all. My opinion!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

What causes me the greatest discomfort when reading this story is that any human being, who is truly suffering, has to go through the humiliation of an approval process in order to be "allowed to die" - a process determined in part by a doctor's panel - and hence the very same doctors who fail to help us in the first place.

No doctor will ever determine whether I live or die. As a pioneer in experimental medicine, I don't need their help for that. Fortunately.

 

[Mal]

I just watched a documentary on youtube about assisted suicuide by the Swiss institution, Dignitas. It was inspiring to hear from a Dignitas spokesman, that 70% of the people, who gets approved for the process, chooses to hold on in life. It is like, it gives new energy, if the patient knows, that he/she is free to make the decision.

I have great respect for people, who fights with this condition every day. I also have great respect for people like Olthuis, who chooses this path to end her suffering.
You should allow an individual to make his/her own decision. People having tinnitus are fucking brave people, and we are fighting with something, that is so hard for outsiders to understand. Especially the 'learn to live it'-section of doctors are a disgrace to us. They should recognize our situation, and they should enlighten us about our possibilities, that we are forced to find elsewhere in patient organisations, the internet, and the like.

With this in mind, a topic like this should definitely be welcome on TT, because it manifests us as brave people, and it tells the world, that it is a serious business.

(I don't mean all doctors are bad, but I initially had an arrogant doctor, who had zero empathy for my situation, when I 'broke my ears')

 

[Lisa88]

Tinnitus Talk seems to be the No.1 forum on the topic. I think if there is a report on the subject, then it should appear somewhere on the forum. Not "off topic" but "in the news". We need to represent the whole truth of this condition. Brushing the t related suicides under the carpet does not seem to be a way forward in seeking treatment and accurately monitoring this condition. If these statistics exist, they need to be accounted for.

 

[Tom KW]

This story is certainly a true tragedy, I think we all at one time felt the hopelessness and despair this poor person felt. I know myself, when my T first started, I went to the doctor wanting to hear something like(you have infection)(you have fluid in your inner ear) or maybe (oh yes, you have a slight tear in your eardrum) but all I got was,( I can't find anything wrong with you). MRI shows everything is normal. but yet I have this terrible sound in my head. I think at some point all of us contemplated suicide, it's one thing to know that in time you will heal, it's another thing to be told, there's no hope, no treatment, nothing but snake oil. I don't know if stories like this belong here or not, from what I've been reading everybody has a good point. it seems they can do harm to some and also it seems like maybe it will give the researchers a kick in the butt. so I guess I'll stay on the fence for this one.
my condolences to the family.

 

[Sjoerd]

What causes me the greatest discomfort when reading this story is that any human being, who is truly suffering, has to go through the humiliation of an approval process in order to be "allowed to die" - a process determined in part by a doctor's panel - and hence the very same doctors who fail to help us in the first place.

I think you misinterpreted the text. She did not fight for the right to die, she fought for the recognition that she was suffering. Suffering to such an extend and without any possible future improvements that others agreed: This suffering is inhumane!

Does this topic have a place on a support forum? I think it is a part of tinnitus reality. It should thus be posted. Maybe it should be posted in some small corner of the forum (with restricted access maybe?).

 

[Steve]

Markku found this link and I think it's important to put it here.

No matter what this story says there is always a better way. There is a whole world out there to experience, full of amazing, beautiful things.

If anybody thinks that they can't go on, talk to somebody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I think you misinterpreted the text. She did not fight for the right to die, she fought for the recognition that she was suffering. Suffering to such an extend and without any possible future improvements that others agreed: This suffering is inhumane!

Does this topic have a place on a support forum? I think it is a part of tinnitus reality. It should thus be posted. Maybe it should be posted in some small corner of the forum (with restricted access maybe?).

Quote from article:

Fight for euthanasia Two years led Olthuis her fight for euthanasia.At first, the doctors did not want to cooperate, because she was not terminally ill."There are many forms of suffering also unlivable and that is really what I want to tell with this report," said Grit.
On February 1, Olthuis' wish was finally fulfilled.Her euthanasia was approved."I no longer have to suffer like this, to have so much pain and I need my car to drive. Against a treeDo not be.That gives peace. "Olthuis is deceased on March 1.

In any event, I was speaking in general terms - ie. the rules that apply to all euthanasia patients. Even terminally ill patients have to apply for "approval". Having grown up and lived in Switzerland for eight years - one of the most liberal countries when it comes to euthanasia - I am well versed on the process.

The article itself does not bother me. Although, it brings little informational value to someone like me.

 

[MattK]

I think: NO

This isn't about freedom of speech or whatever. The point is; dividing the web into different sections with different purposes is a good thing

There are enough depressing tinnitus-related sites. Tinnitus Talk is the one with a positive outlook, but based on science and reality, not "just breath away the tinnitus after drinking this tea!"-bullshit

I don't think this kind of news serves any good purpose at all. My opinion!

You make a really good point; there is no shortage of negativity on the internet. Unfortunately the same can't always be said for positivity.

 

[Relic Hunter]

Never judge someone until you can get down in their skin and walk around awhile. None of us know what we are capable of doing both good and bad until we are confronted with a situation.

In my younger days I thought much different but with age comes some wisdom but mostly experience. I will not condemn this lady for her actions and NO ONE here or anywhere has the right to do so.

 

[bill 112]

I cried a little last night after reading this story.I look at the T community as a big family and her death is like losing one of our own.I never thought about suicide in my 4 years of T until my new outbreak in January when bad H came into the picture.Life has been a real struggle for me since then not knowing how im going to manage one day to the next just trying to wish it all away.I feel so terribly guilty like its all my fault and my mother seeing me like this well its breaking her heart and its all my fault.I have no fear of death now none whatsoever if God was to call me tomorrow id happily accept his call.I think of ending it all everyday but I could never do that to my family as they have suffered enough with my brother passing away due to the monster that is a cancer.He never once complained or feared death even when the doctors told him he was going to die he responded with well thats ok doc Ive places to go and people to see and its not over until its over.Even though death was iminent he still chose life and lived it as best he could while he could.Its his bravery and his spirit that keeps me fighting everyday and this amazing forum that offers me the most precious thing of all HOPE.

 

[jazz]

Talking about how tinnitus can drive someone to suicide is one thing. But showcasing a woman's struggle with tinnitus and her fight for euthanasia is quite another.

What do we gain by reading this woman's story? Many people here have thought about suicide. Reading about someone doing it does not advance the discussion about how tinnitus makes people desperate. Instead, it offers a disturbing look at someone who suffered greatly and probably had major depressive disorder. Is this really informative? Does this help tinnitus sufferers find solutions to their problems? Or will it perhaps serve to confirm dark ideas some might already have in their heads?

People with tinnitus do talk about suicide. Just do a "suicide" search and you'll find many references. But such talk is placed in a positive context like "I'm glad I didn't do it." For most people, tinnitus does get better and nearly everyone habituates with time, information, patience, and a strategy for healing.

Having chronic pain or cancer or tinnitus is not a death sentence. Though many people may feel like dying, such feelings are the result of depression. Depression narrows your options. In fact, it eliminates them. So death becomes attractive. But with help from mental health professionals people do recover and find new meaning in their lives. Recovery is not easy, but it is what the body and mind wants. Read about people who have overcome terrible afflictions only to be glad they did not die. Or read about people with terminal illnesses who chose to make the best of whatever time they have left.

Indulging a glimpse into the dark side of tinnitus is not a strategy for healing. It is a descent into further pain and suffering.

Suicide is not the solution; it is the problem.

 

[jchinnis]

I'm a bit conflicted on this issue.

Tinnitus forums have had people talk about killing themselves. They have had people kill themselves.

It is even possible that the woman who is the subject of the news story was a participant of this forum, given that most people here choose to be anonymous.

But many people come here in a fragile state of mind. The last thing they need to see is a news story such as the one we are discussing.

Yes, the story is relevant, certainly. But it seems to me to be more relevant to research funding agencies, political leaders and the like. It might belong as part of an "advocacy" forum, but not a support forum.

 

[Lisa88]

If it is part of t, good or bad, I am going to want to know about it. Hiding the bad parts of t serves no purpose. It is hiding the truth. This poor woman has been through such an ordeal. Maybe by knowing about it, we can help each other even more through this. It is not in the support thread anymore. But it is a fact of t. There are suicides. But most get through. Unbelievably, but we do it.

 

[Mark McDill]

I had to vote no because it is simply too much for a newbie to handle; I can still remember the thoughts going through my head at the onset of T, I wouldn't have wanted to read that.

After reading the article (brutal grammar) I can't bring myself to believe a linear path exists from her T to her suicide (T = suicide); people are far more complex than that and the article only gives us a snapshot of her life (scarcely that). Furthermore, the article seems to hit the big emotional chords (she had two kids, great person, therapist, 'tried everything'). Tabloid drama 101. Did she really see experts or did she just think she exhausted that route? Was she abjectly habituation resistant? Did she have chronic depression? What are the motives (real motives) behind the publishers? Did she have excessive, chronic anxiety factors in her life? Who knows, the questions are many. I am NOT saying any of the implied answers to these questions are true -- by any stretch of the word; and I'm NOT judging her -- because I don't have all the facts (and that's the problem with this article). I'm just saying it is simply inappropriate to put an article like this on a support forum without any real facts -- and all the facts. Otherwise it comes across as tabloid drama.

I agree with others stating people commit suicide and cite seemingly trivial reasons; are those people really being forthright? Or even accurate (state of mind)? I'm not sure we could ever really know; people just aren't that simplistic -- there's always more than meets the eye.

However, this difficult subject might be worth addressing (in a very indirect manner) on this site. When I first hit the site I found it very user friendly (with lots of friendly users ). That being said, what if we considered something a little more overt like a 'Start Here' button for newbies? When clicked, it takes them to a welcome page with a kind, "don't panic" style message and that includes all the administrivia to get started. Embedded in this page could be a small statement possibly addressing the issue. The wording would need to be well vetted; but it would be doable.

I realize we have the 'Introduce Yourself' link but it has the same look and feel as all the rest of the links. A 'Start Here' may catch a newbie's eye a little better. Please don't think I'm complaining about the site, I really like the functionality, look and feel, and ease of use -- just throwing ideas out there.

Mark

 

[MattK]

The more I think about it, the more I wish I could change my vote to "no" (I voted yes, but outside of support). Because there are plenty of places to find horror stories about tinnitus on the net. If one wants to find a horror story, then it would take very little effort to do exactly that. We don't need to be constantly reminded of how bad our situation sucks; we already know that. What we need is support and encouragement. If someone feels this story needs to be told, then telling it to a bunch of already suffering tinnitus sufferers accomplishes nothing. It's nothing but a form of preaching to the choir. Instead, post it in places where tinnitus-awareness is non-existent so that outsiders can become aware.

So I would appreciate it if my vote could be changed to No.

 

[cullenbohannon]

I thought I should add this as well. The people that want to keep it, I don't know if they're response is necessarily as strong as the people who don't want it. This made a lot of people sick, panicked and some cried. It takes hope from people. I don't think it evokes equal reaction on the other side. You may say don't hide the truth, is this site so powerful we can stop this article from seeing the light of day. No we are not hiding anything we are not denying these things happen and to say so is ridiculous. What people are doing is acknowledging it and acknowledging how it makes people on here feel. That's why they want it off, I'm all for free speech and think this is an incredibly sad and important story in the t world. But it adds no value here. No government official or researcher will see it here. Now again I think the votes are important but also do you really think the people who want it here feel as strongly or are as affected by it as the people who don't. You guys need to realize how much this affects people. I know my state congressman so I will send him articles and other information regarding how difficult t can be. I hope the rest of you will join me in getting in touch with whatever government officials you can. Even if you don't know them get on the Internet onto their websites you will find contact info and bombard them with letters and emails. It's worth it even if nothing comes from it. I hope everyone here who was affcted by this will join me in doing so.

 

[dan]

I'm a bit conflicted on this issue.

Tinnitus forums have had people talk about killing themselves. They have had people kill themselves.

It is even possible that the woman who is the subject of the news story was a participant of this forum, given that most people here choose to be anonymous.

But many people come here in a fragile state of mind. The last thing they need to see is a news story such as the one we are discussing.

Yes, the story is relevant, certainly. But it seems to me to be more relevant to research funding agencies, political leaders and the like. It might belong as part of an "advocacy" forum, but not a support forum.

Jim, at least change your post a bit, don't just copy and paste it from your post on Yuku

 

[Markku]

So I would appreciate it if my vote could be changed to No.

Noted.

 

[wagonwheel]

All the wonders of modern science and 'experts' can't even find a cure for ringing in the ears

I suffer from depression & anxiety and the tinnitus and constant pain I suffer might drive me over the edge some day. I understand exactly where this lady is coming from.

 

[here2help]

Like @jchinnis, I feel a bit conflicted about the subject of this thread. On one hand, I'm aware of the impact an article like this may have on someone who is struggling with tinnitus and how it could feed into that person's fear and fragile state of mind. On the other hand, I'm thinking that the sorts of things we post say a lot about our own state of mind. Those of us who start a thread about a clinical trial for a new approach to treat tinnitus may be saying even more about our own hopes and wishes. Folks who offer a kind word or well-placed kick in the backside to someone looking for help, may be saying as much about their belief in the capacity of people to overcome large obstacles, as they once did. And those who copy a link to an article about a person with tinnitus or other auditory challenge who has taken his or her life may be trying to communicate their own despair by proxy. I just wonder if telling someone who is in despair that an article they posted doesn't belong in the Support section of a support board may feel to that person that he's being told he doesn't belong here.

@billie48, I appreciate what you wrote to me earlier. I'm really not arguing for freedom of expression. I'm saying something different. I'm saying Dan's first post has to do with Dan. Dan hasn't presented the article as "information to those who have come here for support." Maybe it is easier for him to talk about the woman in the article than it is for him to talk directly about himself. Maybe he is cautious about talking directly about himself because it is too risky do that so here. Judging from some of the responses he has received, I can understand why he might feel that way.

Every so often, a newspaper publishes an article like this about a tinnitus sufferer, and every single time there is an opportunity to shine a light on it. I can't think of a single article of this kind where I came away feeling impressed by the acumen of the journalist who wrote it. In each case, the journalist could have been writing (badly) about sailboats, a recipe for chocolate cake, a trade show, or a urologists convention.

here2help

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Markku found this link and I think it's important to put it here.

No matter what this story says there is always a better way. There is a whole world out there to experience, full of amazing, beautiful things.

If anybody thinks that they can't go on, talk to somebody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines

There are only few things in life which irritate me more than people who insist that the world should be viewed through rose tinted glasses. This is the kind of school textbook material that any hypocritical sissy doctor would pull out of their sleeve if confronted by a suicidal patient. As if they know better. Hypocrites...

I see death more as an ally than an enemy.