War in Ukraine — Megathread

[kestokas]

. The European countries are not paying their fair share in this ridiculous war.

Total nonsense...

 

[ZFire]

Lindsey Graham thinks the US is getting its money's worth by funding Ukraine.

Having spent less than 3% of annual U.S. military budget in security assistance, Ukraine managed to cut Russia's combat capacity in half, U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) said at a press conference in Kyiv on Aug. 23.

It's really astonishing how some people have the nerve to complain about extending aid to a pro-US nation, especially when you take into account that the funds we provide constitutes only a small fraction of our massive military budget. And not to mention, that a significant portion of the equipment and weaponry that has been sent to Ukraine, has consisted of items that were approaching their expiration date. These weapons, vehicles, and gear would have incurred substantial costs if they were to be disposed and dismantled at a scrapyard. From an economic standpoint, it doesn't get anymore cost-effective than this — not only is it cheaper sending this stuff overseas, but it also helps the Ukrainians in their efforts to defend against Russian savagery and barbarism.

We should be giving more if anything. We've been way too slow and late in supplying more powerful weapons as of late especially when the counter offensive operation by Ukrainian forces are currently underway.

I suppose if the NATO countries do not continue to fund Ukraine that China will invade Taiwan. That is what I have heard anyway.

Yes. If Ukraine does not succeed in pushing out Russia, there will be more wars, not fewer. Because it will show the imperialists and authoritarians of the world that if they can unleash enough destruction and bloodshed, they can have anything that they want and their ambitions realized. All the more reason why we need to do everything in our power to ensure the Ukrainians are victorious.

 

[Ed209]

What's with all the people sucking off Putin in this thread and places like Twitter/X?

He invaded another country and started a war which has killed thousands of civilians, many of whom were children.

I can't help but think that if we could go back in time, the very same people would be supporting Hitler right now, saying what a noble chap he is.

 

[Jammer]

You just don't get it. I hate Trump and would enjoy seeing him behind bars, but I'd still have him in the White House again, if Biden is the alternative.

You do you and I'll do me. That's what's great about democracy. Unfortunately, democracy will be abolished if Trump is elected, as he will never give up the presidency once he has it and he'll be a fascist dictator.

 

[Juan]

I don't see why EU taxpayers should shell out another 24 billion euros to be stolen by Ukraine, the second most corrupt country in Europe (only second after Russia).

Why are we paying for someone else's war and bearing the consequences of rampant inflation?

 

[gameover]

You do you and I'll do me. That's what's great about democracy. Unfortunately, democracy will be abolished if Trump is elected, as he will never give up the presidency once he has it and he'll be a fascist dictator.

I remember people saying this before he was elected first time. I told them they have very little faith in the institutions of this country. I would still tell the same.

 

[just1morething]

Total nonsense...

View attachment 55646

I was going by what Trump said at a Townhall on CNN awhile back. He said during his term he found out that European NATO countries weren't paying their fair share based on their GNP and made them pay hundreds of billions. Sorry if I was misinformed regarding the Ukraine war contributions.

I can't help but think that if we could go back in time, the very same people would be supporting Hitler right now, saying what a noble chap he is.

Hitler wanted world domination and declared war on the U.S. shortly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor so there is no comparison to Hitler and Putin. Another difference is the millions of people killed in the German concentration camps. I think the American people want a secure southern border prioritized if we have to support a senseless war with no end in site, especially with our enormous federal deficit.

 

[dan]

What's with all the people sucking off Putin in this thread and places like Twitter/X?

He invaded another country and started a war which has killed thousands of civilians, many of whom were children.

I can't help but think that if we could go back in time, the very same people would be supporting Hitler right now, saying what a noble chap he is.

Imagine, Russia causes a Red Revolution in Mexico, starts pumping heavy weapons/missiles into Mexico while training the Mexican military in Russian War tactics and signs a strategic war alliance with them, sending Russian agents to Mexico. The missiles would be pointed at standby in you country's direction. Would your country just sit idle and watch? Really???

 

[Jammer]

I remember people saying this before he was elected first time. I told them they have very little faith in the institutions of this country. I would still tell the same.

Trump was a neophyte president the first time. He now knows how to corrupt the levers of government to his advantage; he plans remove the institutions of this country, lock up anyone who isn't loyal to him and crown himself king.

 

[gameover]

Trump was a neophyte president the first time. He now knows how to corrupt the levers of government to his advantage; he plans remove the institutions of this country, lock up anyone who isn't loyal to him and crown himself king.

I think you are still overestimating that narcissistic moron...

 

[Jammer]

I think you are still overestimating that narcissistic moron...

I hope I am. I really do.

 

[ZFire]

Imagine, Russia causes a Red Revolution in Mexico, starts pumping heavy weapons/missiles into Mexico while training the Mexican military in Russian War tactics and signs a strategic war alliance with them, sending Russian agents to Mexico. The missiles would be pointed at standby in you country's direction. Would your country just sit idle and watch? Really???

This is a silly way of addressing the "NATO encroachment" argument that Putin and Russian state media likes to use to manipulate the narrative.

You do realize that NATO didn't budge until Russia begin a campaign of encroachment in the nineties. NATO does not represent a threat of invasion to Russia, his problem is that NATO country means a country he cannot bully, hence the reason why all these countries want to sign up (like with Finland recently). Countries have sovereignty and can choose their allies, thank you very much.

 

[Juan]

Ukraine is totally corrupt and the EU keeps sending money to those crooks. European taxpayers should not be forced to fund this nonsense.

Ukraine's defence minister resigns after Zelenskiy removes him from post | Ukraine | The Guardian

We are sending money to Ukraine just to be stolen by Ukrainians.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

He invaded another country and started a war which has killed thousands of civilians, many of whom were children.

You mean like the US and Israel have been doing for decades and decades and being largely ignored by most of the western world?

 

[RunningMan]

I don't see why EU taxpayers should shell out another 24 billion euros to be stolen by Ukraine, the second most corrupt country in Europe (only second after Russia).

Why are we paying for someone else's war and bearing the consequences of rampant inflation?

Yeah, same thing in US. Well over $100 billion dollars in support of the Ukraine war at taxpayers' expense while inflation is still over 200% of the Fed target rate (meaning more than double!), and that's building on top of previously high massive inflation. If inflation ever gets back to the target rate, that doesn't mean prices drop (on average). The vast majority of prices will continue to go up, just not as quickly, and all of the previous inflation price increases are already baked in.

 

[Ed209]

You mean like the US and Israel have been doing for decades and decades and being largely ignored by most of the western world?

I condemned Bush just the same. That was another senseless war based on lies.

One atrocity does not excuse another.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

Yeah, same thing in US. Well over $100 billion dollars in support of the Ukraine war at taxpayers' expense while inflation is still over 200% of the Fed target rate (meaning more than double!), and that's building on top of previously high massive inflation. If inflation ever gets back to the target rate, that doesn't mean prices drop (on average). The vast majority of prices will continue to go up, just not as quickly, and all of the previous inflation price increases are already baked in.

Tchaaa! I have mxed feelings on the whole shebang. Even simply if you just look at the financial/economical sides.

If we simply let them "slog it out", most likely Putin will be the winner, the old Soviet Union will be back.

Europeans will have to re-introduce conscription, have to "up" military spending. With Ukraine, Russia will control a large part of the energy and grain market.

Monkey see, Monkey do. If Putin gets away with his land-grab, other countries will follow.

 

[ZFire]

It's curious how after so long, the 2nd Iraq war is still an excuse for Russian bots.

- If anyone criticizes Russia over the invasion of Georgia, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq?"

- Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Crimea, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq?"

- Anyone criticizes Russia for their actions in Syria, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq?"

- Anyone criticizes Russia for invading Ukraine, there comes the bots, "but what about Iraq?"

Sorry to disappoint you, but one wrong doesn't justify another wrong. If I kill a person, doesn't mean you get to kill someone else for free.

Also, seems like some of you guys have forgotten what it means to have an 'anti-war' stance. The "anti-war" position at the time for the Iraq war was NOT "make fake peace and then annex parts of Iraq for America to exploit and oppress to only further grow its military-industrial complex. It was for the US to get the hell out of Iraq. The anti-war position for Russia is for them to GTFO of Ukraine.

One atrocity does not excuse another.

True, but let's not put the misadventures of the US in Iraq to what Russia is doing on equal footing please. What the US did in Iraq pales in comparison to what Russia is doing in Ukraine. The barbaric acts carried out by Putin's orcs are too much to list:

A) execution-style killings
B) raping Ukrainian women and girls
C) looting and pillaging everything on site
D) indiscriminate bombings that hold no strategic purpose or value
E) torture (beatings, hooding, castrations, etc)
F) kidnapping/abducting Ukrainian children (15000+) and relocating them to Russia or Russian occupied territories with the intention of erasing their Ukrainian identities through Russification. We call this cultural genocide.

Not even in the same ballpark.

Why are we paying for someone else's war and bearing the consequences of rampant inflation?

Because Russia can't be allowed to win nor to save face. Putin has to lose.

The problem of allowing Russia to keep parts of Ukraine is that it justifies the invasion, the rapes, the torture, the genocide and emboldens Russia to do it again. Other countries will follow which @Joeseph Stope already pointed out.

It also validates the concept of the 'Russian world'(Russky mir), that is, that Russia has an entitled dominion over anywhere where people speak Russian - this would immediately put a target on a bunch of countries bordering Russia.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

B) raping Ukrainian women and girls
C) looting and pillaging everything on site
D) indiscriminate bombings that hold no strategic purpose or value
E) torture (beatings, hooding, castrations, etc)
F) kidnapping/abducting Ukrainian children (15000+) and relocating them to Russia or Russian occupied territories with the intention of erasing their Ukrainian identities through Russification. We call this cultural genocide

What are the sources on this? Other than articles from Ukrainian websites with no source/evidence? This entire war is a fuckload of sourceless he-said she-said. I don't trust any news without reliable proof.

Also, what you've listed sounds exactly what the US has been doing for half a century, for example in Vietnam, Guantanamo Bay, etc.

 

[Juan]

Because Russia can't be allowed to win nor to save face. Putin has to lose.

The problem of allowing Russia to keep parts of Ukraine is that it justifies the invasion, the rapes, the torture, the genocide and emboldens Russia to do it again. Other countries will follow which @Joeseph Stope already pointed out.

It also validates the concept of the 'Russian world'(Russky mir), that is, that Russia has an entitled dominion over anywhere where people speak Russian - this would immediately put a target on a bunch of countries bordering Russia.

It's Europeans who are losing here. We are paying crazy taxes just to maintain this nonsense of sending at least 20 billion euros per year to Ukraine, plus weapons, plus other "aid". On top of that Europeans are paying crazy prices for oil, gas and energy while the US is profiteering from the situation.

Europe is actually buying Russian oil and gas resold by third parties. It's the most stupid attitude ever.

I am sick of spending my whole life always paying for someone else's problem. My taxes are over 50%, and many people, like me, are thinking enough is enough.

People in Europe can no longer just work and be left alone. Politicians come to steal directly from our salaries to "fund" (and steal on) their latest nonsense.

 

[dan]

This is a silly way of addressing the "NATO encroachment" argument that Putin and Russian state media likes to use to manipulate the narrative.

You do realize that NATO didn't budge until Russia begin a campaign of encroachment in the nineties. NATO does not represent a threat of invasion to Russia, his problem is that NATO country means a country he cannot bully, hence the reason why all these countries want to sign up (like with Finland recently). Countries have sovereignty and can choose their allies, thank you very much.

What encroachment in the 90s? Russian economy was in shambles then. Ukraine gained independence on August 24, 1991.

Sounds more like the collapse of the Soviet Union rather than any gain.

The only encroachment the Russians did in the 90s was to the supermarket.

 

[ZFire]

What are the sources on this? Other than articles from Ukrainian websites with no source/evidence?

The conflict is very well documented. Have you not seen the graphic content and images that have emerged from this war? The atrocities are clearly visible. The Bucha massacres. Plenty of photos of dead Ukrainians lying on the street with their hands tied behind their backs killed in execution style. How about the mass grave exhumations in Izium? Have you seen the pile of bodies? What about the Kramatorsk train attack? Indiscriminate missile strike on innocent civilians while they were simply attempting to evacuate. Women and children lying dead on the floor dead with their luggage nearby.

You also have indiscriminate bombings of maternity and children hospitals in Mariupol. A theater filled with children was also bombed deliberately. There are also videos circulating of a Ukrainian POW getting castrated in Pryvillia and another POW getting beheaded. I'd share all the verified photographic evidence, but I'm not sure If I would be violating any terms of service on this site due to how gruesome some of the images are. Just go to Wikipedia and search Russian War crimes. You can see some of the appalling images for yourself.

We are receiving information and news regarding Russian-related atrocities through investigative reporting conducted within Ukraine, often by independent media outlets, or from raw intelligence provided by the intelligence community. The United Nations have their own independent human rights council. You can read their latest report here:

Report of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Ukraine

International non-governmental human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have documented the forced transfers and the existence of 'filtration' camps that Ukrainians have been subjected to, in addition to other various systematic war crimes. You know how these organizations work, right? They deploy researchers and investigators to conflict zones and areas with human rights concerns to gather firsthand information and report on what they observe.

Stop the forcible transfer of civilians in Ukraine to Russia

Ukraine: One year after full-scale Russian invasion, victims' rights must be at the heart of all justice efforts

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Summary Executions, Other Grave Abuses by Russian Forces

Ukraine: Russian Forces' Trail of Death in Bucha

Ukraine: Executions, Torture During Russian Occupation

Wikipedia: War Crimes in the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Also, what you've listed sounds exactly what the US has been doing for half a century, for example in Vietnam, Guantanamo Bay, etc.

There is very clearly a systematic and deliberate strategy on the part of the Russian military to spread terror amongst civilians by mass executions, rapes, torture, and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. Let's not act like the Russians have only a few bad apples in its ranks, like the US army has had in past. This is not case for the Russians. Thousands of them are doing it. You're greatly inflating what the US did. The US is not going around trying to annex and conquer territories as well.

You're welcome to criticize US foreign policy all you want, especially regarding the War on Terror (Iraq war was a failure), but you can not use it as a way to deflect from what is happening in Ukraine or compare it to Russian aggression as if it's remotely the same. That's false equivalence.

What encroachment in the 90s?

The Chechen Wars obviously...

 

[ajc]

You're welcome to criticize US foreign policy all you want, especially regarding the War on Terror (Iraq war was a failure), but you can not use it as a way to deflect from what is happening in Ukraine or compare it to Russian aggression as if it's remotely the same. That's false equivalence.

For context it's good to remember @AnthonyMcDonald is a Russian himself. I think he said he's now living in the US though but born and bred in Russia. For all we know he's rocking a Putin mouse pad.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

For context it's good to remember @AnthonyMcDonald is a Russian himself. I think he said he's now living in the US though but born and bred in Russia. For all we know he's rocking a Putin mouse pad.

I was born and raised in California, lol. I moved to Russia for work. I just have more of a perspective of the whole situation other than "Russia bad" spoon-fed to me by western media.

Also, @ZFire, most if not all those articles quote eyewitness reports as hard evidence. More he said, she said.

 

[dan]

The Chechen Wars obviously...

Oh those Chechen bad guys you mean... and Putin's lap dog Ramzan Kadyrov lol.

Encroachment on Afghanistan is next... oh wait, been there lol.

 

[dan]

I was born and raised in California, lol. I moved to Russia for work.

...and the ladies too

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

...and the ladies too

Can't argue with that lol.

 

[Luman]

Biden is going to stretch this war out, for as long as possible. It's too profitable for the Military Industrial Complex, to end it by dropping our military and monetary support to Ukraine. Biden is against peace negotiations, so it will no doubt be going on at least for the rest of his term and the next one if he wins the election.

 

[ZFire]

Also, @ZFire, most if not all those articles quote eyewitness reports as hard evidence. More he said, she said.

Yup, just as I expected, you didn't actually read anything. Otherwise, you'd realize that HRW conducted interviews with Ukrainian victims as well, those who were subjected to sexual violence, torture, and witnessing the murder/execution of their love ones. These accounts were substantiated by eyewitness reports, victim testimonies, and photographic evidence. I mean, you had 25 women and girls who were raped in a basement in Bucha by Russian orcs, 9 of which ended up pregnant afterwords. Are you seriously going to suggest that a positive pregnancy tests aren't solid proof?

Some accounts from victims in the links I sent you:

Viktoria, Bohdan's mother, interviewed separately, told Human Rights Watch that on February 27:

They took my son, Bohdan [age 29], and my brother-in-law, Sasha [full name Olexander, age 39]. We were in the basement [due to the shelling], so we didn't see. They went out to smoke. Then our neighbor ran up and said he saw them taking Bohdan and Sasha away, and a few other guys.

Viktoria ran to the street to ask Russian soldiers at the checkpoint what had happened. "They told us not to worry, that [soldiers] would scare them a bit and then let them go," she said. "We walked away about 50 meters … and heard gunshots. It was about 6:20 p.m."

Viktoria said that the next day she and her sister went to the meadow and saw the bodies lying by a building there:

Three were on one side of the building, but not my son and brother-in-law. We walked around to the other side and saw [Bohdan and Sasha, and one more]. They were laying there. There were gunshots to their heads. Their hands were tied behind their backs. I looked at my son's body, his pockets were empty, he didn't have his phone, or keys or [identity] documents

So the mother finding her son and brother in law dead by a building (along with other bodies), hands tied behind their backs with bullets to their head is not evidence of any wrong doing, but a matter of 'he said, she said'. Got it.

More evidence of execution summaries:

Vasily's whereabouts remained unknown for nearly two weeks, Tanya said. His body was found in an outdoor basement stairwell in the building where they had been detained, along with the body of another man in civilian clothes, Igor Lytvynenko. Human Rights Watch reviewed photographs Tarasevych took on April 1. Human Rights Watch found two large dark red stains on the stairwell, apparently blood, that were consistent with the position of the bodies from the photographs.

In the photos, Vasily had severe lacerations on his hands, bruises on his lower abdomen, and what appeared to be blunt force trauma to his head. Tarasevych, who helped recover and bury Vasily's body, said that they were not able to fully examine the body before burying him in a shallow grave behind the apartment building where Vasily and Tanya lived. Human Rights Watch visited the gravesite.

The fact that Vasily was last seen alive in the custody of Russian soldiers, and that his body had marks consistent with abuse, strongly suggest that after he was detained, he was tortured and summarily killed.

Unlawful killings of civilians:

Russian Armored Vehicles Fire at a Woman with Bicycle, Killing Her

Iryna, the wife of Oleh Abramov, who was killed on March 5, said that she saw the body of a woman lying next to a bicycle a few meters from their gate, just after Russian forces shot and killed her husband and then ordered her to walk southeast down Yablunska Street.

The woman near the bicycle is most likely the same person whose death was captured on aerial footage that was posted to Telegram on April 5. The video, analyzed by the New York Times, shows a cyclist dismount from their bicycle as she turns down Yablunska Street before being fired upon by two Russian armored vehicles. At least 19 military vehicles line Yablunska Street and the parallel streets.

Satellite imagery analysis indicates that the aerial footage was recorded sometime between February 28 and March 9. Satellite imagery from February 28 shows the same destroyed armored vehicles that are visible in the footage, while imagery from March 9 shows destroyed houses that are still intact in the video.

Kharkiv Rape:

At around midnight on March 13, a Russian soldier forcibly entered the school, Olha said: "He broke glass windows at the entrance to the school and banged on the door." A guard opened the door.

The soldier, who carried an assault rifle and a pistol, went into the basement and ordered everyone there to line up. The woman stood in the line holding her daughter, who was asleep. He told her to give him the girl, but she refused. He told her brother to come forward and ordered the rest of the group to kneel, or, he said, he would shoot everyone in the basement.

The soldier ordered her brother to follow him to help find food. They left and came back an hour or two later. The soldier sat down on the floor.

"People started asking if they could go to the bathroom and he let them, in groups of two and three," Olha said. After that, people started settling down for the night. The soldier approached her family and told her to follow him.

The soldier took her to a classroom on the second floor, where he pointed a gun at her and told her to undress. She said: "He told me to give him [oral sex]. The whole time he held the gun near my temple or put it into my face. Twice he shot at the ceiling and said it was to give me more 'motivation.'" He raped her, then told her to sit on a chair.

She said she was getting very cold in the unheated school and asked if she could get dressed, but the soldier told her she should only put on her top, not her pants or underwear. "While I was putting on my clothes, the soldier told me that he was Russian, that his name was [name withheld] and that he was 20. He said that I reminded him of a girl he went to school with."

The soldier told her to go to the basement and get her things, so that she could stay in the classroom with him. She refused. "I knew my daughter would cry if she saw me," she said. The soldier got a knife and told her to do so as he said if she wanted to see her child again. The soldier raped her again, put a knife to her throat and cut the skin on her neck. He also cut her cheek with the knife and cut off some of her hair. He hit her on the face with a book and repeatedly slapped her. Photographs that she shared with Human Rights Watch, dated March 19 and 20, show cut marks and bruising on her neck and face.

Tell you what, you show me some evidence of the Russian troops on the ground doing anything other than acting like monsters, then I'll start to take you seriously. Until then, you can keep your both sides drivel to yourself. It makes you come across as a Putin apologist.

The Russians are acting like the Nazis in this context. 'They're not all bad' really doesn't cut it, given all the evidence we see coming out of Ukraine. Because that's what the evidence is telling us. It's telling us if there are any decent Russians, then they are very, very few and far between.

Oh those Chechen bad guys you mean... and Putin's lap dog Ramzan Kadyrov lol.

Dzhokhar Dudayev had Russia figured out since day one. Shame no one was paying attention to him at the time.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Yup, just as I expected, you didn't actually read anything. Otherwise, you'd realize that HRW conducted interviews with Ukrainian victims as well, those who were subjected to sexual violence, torture, and witnessing the murder/execution of their love ones. These accounts were substantiated by eyewitness reports, victim testimonies, and photographic evidence. I mean, you had 25 women and girls who were raped in a basement in Bucha by Russian orcs, 9 of which ended up pregnant afterwords. Are you seriously going to suggest that a positive pregnancy tests aren't solid proof

"said that she saw".
"Olha said"
"told human rights watch"

No, that's not solid proof. Do you know how many people get pregnant daily? Not to mention interviews are just more he-said, she-said. Where is the photographic evidence? I'd love to see some. Anyone can falsely testify, especially if they are disgruntled about the SMO, not to mention want to rile up support from the West. Most Ukrainian citizens are obviously not happy with the whole situation.

Why should I be the one to provide evidence? The burden of proof lies on the accuser. There's plenty of "unbiased" evidence, same as yours, showing the Russian military being humane, with photographic evidence, etc.

It's telling us if there are any decent Russians, then they are very, very few and far between

This phrase alone shows your toxic bias against Russians. Do you have any idea what insane racial segregation and Bandera worship was happening in Donbas and Luhansk for decades before the SMO? How Ukrainian nationalists would beat up Russian citizens in the street for not knowing the Ukrainian National anthem by heart? Or do you think Putin acted for no reason at all? I doubt you were very interested in what was happening there for many years before it was brought to the spotlight of western media because "Russia Bad".