Why Do Some People Hate Bill Bauer?
- Thread starter Localboy
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MemberI don't hate anyone, but I noticed in the forum that Bill Bauer considers noise to be particularly harmful.
I am worried that this will drive many tinnitus sufferers into overprotection. No one has ever recovered from the people who walk around outside the apartment with airport hearing protectors.
It seems to me that noise is the only cause of tinnitus for Bill Bauer. For me this point of view is too one-dimensional....
I am worried that this will drive many tinnitus sufferers into overprotection. No one has ever recovered from the people who walk around outside the apartment with airport hearing protectors.
It seems to me that noise is the only cause of tinnitus for Bill Bauer. For me this point of view is too one-dimensional....
@Gman - I am a relative new boy on here having only been active for barely a couple of years.
I have not had time to read everybody's posts regarding all topics, however, I am beginning to understand the different emphasis than many of the contributors put out there.
Just a couple of thoughts from me.
As I understand it, by far the greatest number of T sufferers have been created by noise damage.
I certainly was.
Our severity certainly varies considerably, consequently our degree of suffering varies also.
Surely, those of us who suffer the most, are likely to look for the most cautious way forward.
We truly know what suffering is all about.
Those with a less severe problem may look for a more relaxed approach.
I don't see a huge dichotomy here.
When I am looking for a cautious way forward I look to @Bill Bauer for advice.
When I'm in need of some positivity, and some advice that tells me 'I can make it through this hell' I make a dive for @fishbone who always gives me great support.
There are clearly more unknowns about "T" than there are knowns.
Differences of opinion are unavoidable.
Whatever, you are all mentors to me, even though I may 'pick and choose a bit.'
Jazzer x
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
Read the rest of his post. He is saying that once something like that happens, the threshold of what will actually hurt our ears gets to be lower. When that happens, he (and I and many others) learned that denying it will often tend to make T worse, while protecting one's ears often leads to an objective improvement. When a person is in that situation, telling them to not let T win can lead to devastating consequences. On the other hand, when a person is in that situation, they might not realize that taking protection seriously is even an option. They need to be made aware of this option. After that, it is up to them.
I know of at least one person who did.
If you want to become clinically depressed that is certainly a viable option.
I doubt my 100 posts even make a dent compared to your 4100+ in terms of potentially harmful outcome.
That and the fact that I don't hand out advice nor do I post my ''tips'' on EVERY SINGLE newcomer's thread.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
Do what I do and speak for yourself.
Many of them comment how they find those tips to be helpful. I am not telling you what to post or what not to post, so please return the favour.
Anyone who is going through the anxiety/panic stage would be happy with those recovery stats, like I said before that is kind of like taking candy from a baby. Thing is it's kind of unethical to wave these stats around on every single newcomers post as for one you have no idea of the persons medical history nor are you a doctor, secondly this information is based on small case studies and by no means offer any real hard evidence (even though I wish they would) and last but certainly not least you are potentially interfering with someones recovery.
Your post with tips is hard to miss on the overview page, no need to shmeer it in every newbies face.
In fact when you google ''Tinnitus Recovery'' that thread is pretty much the first hit ...
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
And what is wrong with the papers published in peer reviewed journals and cited by other peer reviewed journals and by an author of a dissertation (who had a dissertation supervisor and an external reviewer whose job it was to ensure that his or her thesis does not cite unreliable studies)?
The point of statistics is that in large samples different medical histories cancel out, and we can see broad trends that can be useful for people with all kinds of medical histories.
Not all of them had a small sample.
The same can be said about every single post on this forum. People's outcome might have been different had they not read a particular post.
Not every person is going to search this forum using those keywords. (When I search for those words in Google, I don't see any links to this thread - too bad!)
Not everyone knows about the overview page.
- Aug 29, 2015
- 7,069
- Tinnitus Since
- 2004
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Meniere's Disease
Its no use keep banging your gums at other members posts....
The report button is their for a reason if you find posts you are not happy about..
These personal point scoring posts are off putting and not what a forum is about....
Bang your gums if you must but do it off the forum with the STAFF .....
Im seriously getting my back up now .......
Pack it in.......
The report button is their for a reason if you find posts you are not happy about..
These personal point scoring posts are off putting and not what a forum is about....
Bang your gums if you must but do it off the forum with the STAFF .....
Im seriously getting my back up now .......
Pack it in.......
My two cents: It was Bill Bauer's original thread: Many recover stats, that made me sign in to this forum and gave me some hope. And, if you have noise-induced tinnitus it only makes sense to protect your ears as they are already compromised and we're not healthy people anymore. Fact. Idk how much truth is there to the permanent spikes tho
All the ENT's specialists that I saw claim that sounds of about 80 - 90 dB intensity are harmless to us (hence why they think the acoustic reflex test is perfectly ok and can't cause any harm... which is bs btw). The reasoning behind this is that our brains should get used to this sound intensity again as it is natural. They say it's the sounds of intensity 120 - 130 dB that can cause a permanent damage within a fraction of a sec. That's correct.
For us however, better safe than sorry is the policy I think Bill's trying to advocate here. T can be unforgiving.
On another note, I agree with AZeuroturner and some others that there should be a middle ground. Get the best protection possible, try to avoid generally loud places, find what's best for you and do it. E.g. I can't give up bodybuilding even tho I kno they like to play loud music in my beloved gym, clank plates, drop weights and the like so I'm gonna have to readjust. Find a fitness centre where they only play a radio music at low volume and go at different times when there aren't many people around. The other thing I'm gonna miss bad are student bars or bars in general and socializing. Some say musician earplugs are the solution here but I'm not sure.
The choice is yours.
All the ENT's specialists that I saw claim that sounds of about 80 - 90 dB intensity are harmless to us (hence why they think the acoustic reflex test is perfectly ok and can't cause any harm... which is bs btw). The reasoning behind this is that our brains should get used to this sound intensity again as it is natural. They say it's the sounds of intensity 120 - 130 dB that can cause a permanent damage within a fraction of a sec. That's correct.
For us however, better safe than sorry is the policy I think Bill's trying to advocate here. T can be unforgiving.
On another note, I agree with AZeuroturner and some others that there should be a middle ground. Get the best protection possible, try to avoid generally loud places, find what's best for you and do it. E.g. I can't give up bodybuilding even tho I kno they like to play loud music in my beloved gym, clank plates, drop weights and the like so I'm gonna have to readjust. Find a fitness centre where they only play a radio music at low volume and go at different times when there aren't many people around. The other thing I'm gonna miss bad are student bars or bars in general and socializing. Some say musician earplugs are the solution here but I'm not sure.
The choice is yours.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
I just checked the first study, and as you can see on page 35 of 77, the sample size was 120. I have some stats background and can assure you that this is large enough to not be classified as "a small case study."
https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/27440/investig.pdf?sequence=1
I am not sure if this is directed at me (I'm guessing it is) but I have no motive whatsoever to score points.
The fact that I am stating some of the information on this site is harmful is by no means for my own personal gain as I have nothing to gain from this because it is not something that I take as serious advice for myself, others however might due to inexperience and/or age, this is unethical to say the least, if the moderators of this forum do not recognise this then they are just as accountable.
People continuously posting in an almost obsessive manner on any newcomers posts with potentially harmful information is unethical and should be tackled, I could ''report'' all day and night at this rate.
Look, I like the studies, it's great if this would all play out like this, in fact I would love it.
Fact of the matter is we have no idea, the doctors have no clue, nobody does, it's just guesswork.
YOU SHOULD NOT BE POSTING THIS ON EVERY SINGLE NEWCOMERS THREAD
Simple as that, it's just not ethical, you don't have the answers, nobody does.
I get that you mean well but it's just not helpful to spread false hope, it's harmful and potentially dangerous. Your advice on sound avoidance is extreme and creates (in many cases) unnecessary social isolation, everybody understands one should be careful with loud noise (or even moderately loud noise) this is common sense but to advocate social reclusion as a viable option to people who are potentially dealing with clinical depression is sick.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
I have not seen you produce any argument about why papers with large samples published in peer reviewed journals and cited by other authors are harmful. A number of people testified that those studies gave them hope. Note that this was not False hope, it was hope based on them looking at research about the patient outcomes that is relevant to them (some studies in the Stats thread talk about acoustic traumas due to exposure to guns, others talk about T experienced by seniors).
- Dec 16, 2017
- 82
- Tinnitus Since
- 2010
- Cause of Tinnitus
- hearing loss from concerts, hunting, tools, and accident
@Chris Holland with all due respect Bill Bauer at least has studies to refer to. Your fantasy stories not so much...
How can you be so thickheaded not to see he is right and you are wrong?
How can you be so thickheaded not to see he is right and you are wrong?
- Aug 29, 2015
- 7,069
- Tinnitus Since
- 2004
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Meniere's Disease
@Chris Holland
Everyones views are important as well as your views and nothing wrong with yours as they are your views.
Just report any conserns if need addressing thats all ...
Love glynis
Everyones views are important as well as your views and nothing wrong with yours as they are your views.
Just report any conserns if need addressing thats all ...
Love glynis
Don't bother reasoning with him. He presents his views in a well laid out matter, but make no mistake; his mind is set and absolutely nothing can change it.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
The studies just followed up on T patients and reported what they say about their T. No guesswork there.
The studies show that many recover (70% of those young soldiers, 25% of seniors), and many do not. Many people (in the studies and on this forum) report their T fading. In any case, it is not all good news.
I don't give "Answers" - I give links to published research.
False hope?
I think it is extreme to advise a person to carry on as if they are healthy. A person needs to be made aware of the fact that this is one of the things they could try. Personally, it took me a while to realize (it happened as a result of me reading posts on this forum) that standing next to a blender (something that never gave me problems before) might harm me. As soon as I began to stay away from blenders and vacuum cleaners, I got better. This had been an experience shared by many here. So it is important to make people aware of this. As for the social isolation, as I wrote earlier, just because you don't go to loud events and places does not mean you need to be socially isolated.
I don't advocate it. I practice it, but I only advocate staying away from moderate noises, if one can help it.
What are you even referring to with your ''fantasy stories''?
And there is no need for name calling, I think Bill is perfectly capable of defending himself.
That is because I never claimed the studies to be harmful I claim that your obsessive pushing of this information in any and everyones face that comes on this forum (with no idea of their medical history) is irresponsible because you might more than likely be giving out false hope which can harm a persons mental wellbeing in the long run. These studies do not even by far cover the full spectrum of possible triggers of tinnitus nor their respective development and are great for anecdotal information but by no means should be pushed in the manner you do.
What you seemingly fail to understand is that I am not contesting these studies or their outcomes I'm merely saying that it is not responsible to use these studies as generalised advice to newcomers without you actually being able to determine if this is applicable to said person. Your views on sound avoidance I don't have any beef with, I think they actually make sense albeit somewhat extreme, the problem here again is that you present it as absolute truth, which is guesswork at best and possibly creates paranoia and fear for very tolerable sounds in newcomers which can then in turn drive them into even more social isolation. THIS IS EXTREMELY HARMFUL when it comes to depression.
- Jun 6, 2013
- 1,373
- Tinnitus Since
- January 2002
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Dental Surgery
Bill you are gaining lots of traction on this thread. We need to create some, I love Bill shirts and start selling them bro
I'll be your manager.....
And proceeds can go to Tinnitus Talk. Or send the moderators on a well deserved day retreat.
Okay, Chris Holland time to stop the trouble you seem to want to continue on. You have stated your views too many times already. Plus your sentences are way too long. The message gets lost after the first twenty posts.
Some people are prompted to make trouble when this site is running smoothly - as it has been for a while.
STOP. People don't reply or argue with Chris Holland anymore.
So when a particular "expert" here expounds his belief that no one should ever use headphones because they will
increase their tinnitus and further damage their ears....that part is okay? That part is absolute truth and won't harm new comers? Where is the scientific proof from double blinded studies?
Please. Just stop. You have only had tinnitus for a year.
I don't want to continue any ''trouble'' I'm merely responding to Bill's comments to me on this thread. You don't have to read them, it's your choice. My views I stated for approximately 10 times on this forum, some others have for around 4000 times, guess it depends on what your idea is of too much ... Same goes for the site running smoothly or the long sentences, depends on how you read it. Personally I think you use too many white spaces but that does not mean I don't take you seriously.
I don't agree with the person you are referring to on many things as well, so wrong assumption.
Don't really see how the duration of my tinnitus has anything to do with it either as I don't claim to hold any answers nor give advice to any newcomers. I have only given my opinion on what I feel can be considered harmful behaviour.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
I am sure that if someone is aware of a past or an ongoing medical problem that would likely change their prognosis, they would share it in their intro post (e.g., they have had had problems with their ears for their entire life, etc) [in this case, I would of course not provide them with a link to the stats thread, as I understand that it is likely not relevant for their case]. If they won't do that, surely they will understand that those stats might not be relevant for their case due to their medical history.
Surely people with those exotic triggers will realize this.
This has never been my intention. In the future, I will attempt to see what I can do to not give this impression.
That's not what the "expert" is saying. Their posts link to posts by people who learned the hard way that using headphones can have life-changing consequences. This proves that there is risk associated with using headphones. It is important to raise awareness of that risk. I am the first person to encourage people who decide to take that risk to keep taking the risk.
You can't know that for certain, that's a rather dangerous assumption plus that the person might not be aware of such ongoing medical problems.
You can't just assume that, this is what I mean by ''potentially'' dangerous. I don't doubt your intentions are good let that be clear as well, this assumption based thinking however is quite harmful in some cases. I mean you can't simply expect someone who is in a state of panic to make such clear deductions or just assume that they even have a full understanding of their condition that enables them to make such deductions in the first place.
Again assumption Bill and who is to say these triggers are ''exotic''?
That I believe and it's great that you will attempt to not give this impression in the future anymore.
I just want to close off by saying I never doubted your intention to help others and I believe you are helping a lot of people with your research and threads, it's just the way (and volume) in which you present it that concerns me.
- Feb 17, 2017
- 10,400
- Tinnitus Since
- February, 2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic Trauma
I have never been to a concert. A blender seems to be pretty extreme and loud to me. Come to think of it, the sound of a blender might be the loudest sound I had ever heard.
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