Will You Get Vaccinated for Coronavirus (COVID-19)? Can It Make Tinnitus or Hyperacusis Worse?

[linearb]

So are you really saying that people with no previous history of hearing disorders who got tinnitus out of the blue right after getting vaccinated... got tinnitus just because they were part of a statistic that applies to the general population and not only to those who have vaccinated? Really?

...some of them, yes?

We have vaccinated close to 70% of the adult population and tinnitus is very common; therefore, some number of people will develop tinnitus within 2 weeks of getting the vaccine, and it has nothing to do with the vaccine. I did the math as of 4 weeks ago and the number I came up with was 30,000 people that we'd expect to meet those criteria, if you want a breakdown of how I arrived at that number I am happy to provide it.

Put differently, several hundred thousand to millions of people experience acute or chronic tinnitus for the first time every year in the US.

Since there are only 52 weeks in the year, and we've vaccinated 70% of these people, it's obvious that some number of people will develop tinnitus within two weeks of one of the shots; this is more or less mathematically certain.

What part of that do you find hard to follow? This is slightly-beyond-basic stats.

If 70% of the adult population had all had cheddar cheese twice, I would also expect some significant number of those people to develop new onset tinnitus within a couple weeks of the cheese consumption, for all the same reasons.

Understanding the difference in risk between cheese and the COVID-19 vaccine, requires having hard numbers around all these things. We don't yet, they are pretty blurry, but since COVID-19 itself appears to be so catastrophic for hearing and tinnitus, there's a pretty wide space that the vaccines can exist in and still be the monumentally safer option.

I find that particularly irresponsible. Governments extended a blank check (money and immunity from damages) to pharma companies.

Yep, and it's fucked up! Every government has done something bad in this, and the US government has been super irresponsible and continues to be. The pharma companies are profit motivated in an inappropriate way and not being brought to heel, so are seeing a huge payday during a catastrophe.

All that is true, but also the vaccines work and are quite safe.

 

[Juan]

If 70% of the adult population had all had cheddar cheese twice, I would also expect some significant number of those people to develop new onset tinnitus within a couple weeks of the cheese consumption, for all the same reasons.

That does not quite agree with the stories we read every day on tinnitustalk, or with our own life!

Tinnitus does not happen out of the blue. There are often risk factors, and trigger situations (exposure to noise, medication etc.)

 

[Taw]

I got vaccinated with 2 Pfizer doses before my acoustic trauma and I did not have problems. But now they want to give us a 3rd dose and I am quite reluctant to do it.

 

[Juan]

I got vaccinated with 2 Pfizer doses before my acoustic trauma and I did not have problems. But now they want to give us a 3rd dose and I am quite reluctant to do it.

Pharma companies are not clear about what to expect from vaccines. Now they say people should have a 3rd dose... for pharma companies it's great. They will make a lot more money!

 

[Tinker Bell]

That does not quite agree with the stories we read every day on tinnitustalk, or with our own life!

Tinnitus does not happen out of the blue. There are often risk factors, and trigger situations (exposure to noise, medication etc.)

No, if anything this forum supports that tinnitus seemingly happens out of the blue. There are countless posts started by new forum members who are trying to determine why they have tinnitus. There are many posts speculating on the cause: was it XYZ medication, do I have Lyme disease or Ménière's disease, did TMJ cause it? So many members go through tests searching for a specific cause and an answer.

If anything, there is a lot of speculation regarding causes.

 

[linearb]

That does not quite agree with the stories we read every day on tinnitustalk, or with our own life!

Tinnitus does not happen out of the blue. There are often risk factors, and trigger situations (exposure to noise, medication etc.)

Er, tinnitus DOES happen out of the blue, all the time, and there are many, many such stories right here on Tinnitus Talk. "Went to sleep and woke up with piercing ringing" is a very common story, SSHNL is a common occurrence, etc.

I am sorry, but I just don't think you're very informed on this, and since your unvaccinated self is never going to be in any proximity to me or my family I don't care enough. Yes, tinnitus hits thousands of people a day and unless we know the differential between the baseline tinnitus number and the number of people to develop it post-vaccine, we can't actually say with any certainty that the vaccine causes the ringing.

This might be of interest, or not:

Basic Statistical Considerations in Virological Experiments

Have a good day, sir, I am done. Again, I wish you the best with your health and tinnitus.

No, if anything this forum supports that tinnitus seemingly happens out of the blue. There are countless posts started by new forum members who are trying to determine why they have tinnitus. There are many posts speculating on the cause: was it XYZ medication, do I have Lyme disease or Ménière's disease, did TMJ cause it? So many members go through tests searching for a specific cause and an answer.

If anything, there is a lot of speculation regarding causes.

Yep, thanks, agree 100%.

Note that I wasn't implying that no one has gotten tinnitus from a COVID-19 vaxx -- only that knowing whether or not people are, and at what rate, is a relatively hard problem because of the overall high rate of background tinnitus and the randomness with which it can occur.

I can understand how that is a difficult concept to grasp for people who are not used to working with these things from the perspective of statistical analysis of large data sets, but it's necessary to build that context to understand literally anything about any of this.

If someone comes to this forum and says "I HAD SWISS CHEESE AND IT GAVE ME TINNITUS", generally people are skeptical and say, well, yes, that's a correlation but it sounds unlikely. People are far more willing to believe the correlation if it's to something "scary" like a medical procedure or drug. Now, there is some amount of logic to this -- medical procedures and drugs are, generally, more dangerous than eating cheese.

However, the existence of people who are completely convinced cheese gave them tinnitus because of the strong correlation in their mind, should be informative as to how we process the other kind of claim. Some people do become harmed by medical interventions every day. Some people have random bad shit happen to them unrelated to medical interventions they just had.

Meanwhile, COVID-19 has killed 0.1% of the human population as of July 2021, and we have a handful of anaphylactic vaccine reactions noted, none fatal as far as I know.

As always -- all beliefs are human makyo, and reality simply ignores them and keeps doing its thing, same as ever

Also, again, to show my own biases, my own personal anecdotes:

I know three people including myself who got tinnitus spikes from the mRNA vaxxes; I know five people with tinnitus who did not get spikes

I know three people who had COVID-19 somewhat badly, and one of them believes his hearing got substantially worse immediately following COVID-19, even though in his case it didn't seem to change his tinnitus, a lot of his high frequencies that he had in 2020 are... gone.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Er, tinnitus DOES happen out of the blue, all the time, and there are many, many such stories right here on Tinnitus Talk. "Went to sleep and woke up with piercing ringing" is a very common story, SSHNL is a common occurrence, etc.

I am sorry, but I just don't think you're very informed on this, and since your unvaccinated self is never going to be in any proximity to me or my family I don't care enough. Yes, tinnitus hits thousands of people a day and unless we know the differential between the baseline tinnitus number and the number of people to develop it post-vaccine, we can't actually say with any certainty that the vaccine causes the ringing.

This might be of interest, or not:

Basic Statistical Considerations in Virological Experiments

Have a good day, sir, I am done. Again, I wish you the best with your health and tinnitus.

Yep, thanks, agree 100%.

Note that I wasn't implying that no one has gotten tinnitus from a COVID-19 vaxx -- only that knowing whether or not people are, and at what rate, is a relatively hard problem because of the overall high rate of background tinnitus and the randomness with which it can occur.

I can understand how that is a difficult concept to grasp for people who are not used to working with these things from the perspective of statistical analysis of large data sets, but it's necessary to build that context to understand literally anything about any of this.

If someone comes to this forum and says "I HAD SWISS CHEESE AND IT GAVE ME TINNITUS", generally people are skeptical and say, well, yes, that's a correlation but it sounds unlikely. People are far more willing to believe the correlation if it's to something "scary" like a medical procedure or drug. Now, there is some amount of logic to this -- medical procedures and drugs are, generally, more dangerous than eating cheese.

However, the existence of people who are completely convinced cheese gave them tinnitus because of the strong correlation in their mind, should be informative as to how we process the other kind of claim. Some people do become harmed by medical interventions every day. Some people have random bad shit happen to them unrelated to medical interventions they just had.

Meanwhile, COVID-19 has killed 0.1% of the human population as of July 2021, and we have a handful of anaphylactic vaccine reactions noted, none fatal as far as I know.

As always -- all beliefs are human makyo, and reality simply ignores them and keeps doing its thing, same as ever

Absolutely agree with all of your post. Of everyone I know with tinnitus, only one person can point to a very specific incident - an explosion. For many people it's more a series of events that leads to the final straw. When I lost my hearing, I was shocked to learn just how many people wake up each day with sudden loss and no definitive cause.

 

[linearb]

Also to be very clear and fair to @Juan -- "not informed" is not intended as a ding, it's just a reflection of the fact that for reasons (some professional, given the data of the tech behind some of this and the work I do) I've spend hundreds of hours reading thousands of pages of abstracts and fulltexts as well as keeping on top of what various global health agencies are saying, and how those stories have changed over time (vs the actual research, which has painted a fairly consistent picture once initial data anomalies from small data sets went away).

This forum is mostly full of people at least as bright as I am, so I think nearly anyone could become extremely informed on this, if they want, but if your starting basis is "laymens understanding of stats, biochem and virology" then you have a several hundred hour hill to climb of basic self education first. That's a lot of work, and while I certainly don't expect the average person to care enough... once someone is sufficiently grounded in the data and context around all this, it's pretty clear in their arguments (whether or not I disagree with them; I disagree with many highly informed people on various things), and it becomes tiring to have broken-record conversations with people who clearly don't have that context and also have no interest in the significant time investment to build it.

Absolutely agree with all of your post. Of everyone I know with tinnitus, only one person can point to a very specific incident - an explosion. For many people it's more a series of events that leads to the final straw. When I lost my hearing, I was shocked to learn just how many people wake up each day with sudden loss and no definitive cause.

My worsening was absolutely triggered by an acoustic event but it was far from the worst such event I'd endured, and my initial onset at 19 is something of a mystery, since it came at the same time that I'd developed TMJ, had an outbreak of oral HSV, been in a car accident that deployed airbags and had whiplash, and been to a couple concerts. Literally all the likely tinnitus causes except for "chemotherapy drugs", all in a ~6 month period, what a ride! My onset was coupled with pretty severe DP/DR and ocular problems and the tinnitus didn't even really faze me until the rest of that stuff settled (or, in the case of the visuals, I actually habituated to it, since my vision is still a bloody mess 20 years later but I don't notice much).

Best wishes all, until there's some radical new change in the story on the ground, or we hit a point where my kids can be vaxxed and my anxiety drops slightly I am gonna try to disengage slightly. Right now the story appears to be "case counts ticking up, hospitals overwhelmed in some areas, if you go to an ER in Arizona right now for any reason good luck, and we're about to do a massive experiment on exposing a pediatric population to the delta variant".

Stay safe!!

 

[Juan]

Er, tinnitus DOES happen out of the blue, all the time, and there are many, many such stories right here on Tinnitus Talk. "Went to sleep and woke up with piercing ringing" is a very common story, SSHNL is a common occurrence, etc.

I am sorry, but I just don't think you're very informed on this

Are you seriously saying that I am not informed enough on tinnitus and hyperacusis?

 

[Juan]

No, if anything this forum supports that tinnitus seemingly happens out of the blue. There are countless posts started by new forum members who are trying to determine why they have tinnitus. There are many posts speculating on the cause: was it XYZ medication, do I have Lyme disease or Ménière's disease, did TMJ cause it? So many members go through tests searching for a specific cause and an answer.

If anything, there is a lot of speculation regarding causes.

Some people start those posts like that but then you ask them obvious things like "what's your previous history of noise exposure?" or "which medication have you taken lately?" and a lot of things come out.

So there is obviously a cause and a trigger, if one thinks a little about it.

 

[linearb]

I know I was trying to take a break but I noticed from the news this morning that major US retailers including WalMart and multiple airlines are giving an October date to all staff as, "get vaxxed, or get fired". Ultimately that will probably squeeze another 5-10% of the population into the vaccinated, but we have about 18% dyed-in-the-wool antivaxx/antiscience mostly hardcore evangelical Christians who will probably let themselves get fired and lose their housing before they'll take a shot, so I guess the question will be whether 82% vaxx + whatever NPI people can stomach at that point is enough to reduce r < 1, or not.

I'm not real optimistic that it will and I think masks and boosters and variants are here for the long term. And, as a long time pharma skeptic I think it's a little dubious to require EUA drug use by nonmedical personnel, but I'm also optimistic that this stuff isn't going to be EUA for much longer; usually that's like a 6-8 month deal before real approval, and we have equivocal safety and efficiency data that this vaccine is as well tolerated as most vaccines we use and is even more effective at preventing COVID-19 than many other vaccines are at preventing their target infection.

All of which is to say, this fall is going to be dark and bloody and full of death again, and we're gonna at least flirt with being over 1000 deaths/day again, but the wave does appear to be destined to crash into the full might of the US corporate apparatus saying "vaxx up or get fired, idiots", and I am optimistic that when that's combined with a pediatric vaxx rollout in the same general time frame, things will look a lot better next season.

I rather expect that masks during "cold season" are here to stay in many parts of the US, and, "good, that's cool, other smarter countries have been doing that for 100 years already".

 

[aura]

I got vaccinated with 2 Pfizer doses before my acoustic trauma and I did not have problems. But now they want to give us a 3rd dose and I am quite reluctant to do it.

I'll take it.

 

[kuromi]

I had my first shot of Pfizer without any effects to my tinnitus. In fact, it was such a minimal experience that I entirely forgot to record my experience in this thread until recently.

I'm due to get my 2nd shot soon, and I'll be sure to update if anything significant happens. (I'm quite worried about it, but because the first shot went fine, I have confidence I'll do well with the second too.)

 

[linearb]

If this guy doesn't have tinnitus I think we're all pretty safe

This is the most god damn American thing I've read all week and I was up at 4am today reading about corrupt LAPD cops busting down doors at the behest of second rate stand up comics with personality disorders.

 

[Alexandor Scott]

I'm curious if there is anyone else here holding out for the Novavax COVID-19 vaccine?

From what I've read, it seems to be far less likely to cause side effects than the existing vaccines. It seems like it could be a good option for those of us that are worried about the vaccine worsening our tinnitus.

 

[Damocles]

I'm curious if there is anyone else here holding out for the Novavax COVID-19 vaccine?

From what I've read, it seems to be far less likely to cause side effects than the existing vaccines. It seems like it could be a good option for those of us that are worried about the vaccine worsening our tinnitus.

Hey again @Alexandor Scott.

Yes. If I were absolutely, 100%, left with no choice but to have one of the COVID-19 vaccines, I would opt for the Novavax vaccine.

Similar to the reason you stated: a) is based on traditional vaccine models b) far less likely to have serious adverse side effects (because: see reason a) again) c) not an unknown quantity (much more similar to seasonal flu vaccines taken each year (why: see reasons a) and b) again).

 

[Lane]

Why get any vaccine at all with the delta variant now being responsible for the vast majority of infections, and is apparently weaker and far less dangerous than the original virus? The news is filled with reports on the rising number of infections, but fails to contrast those numbers with the fewer number of deaths. And those deaths are mostly from people who have a number of comorbid conditions, such as diabetes, obesity, low Vit. D levels, etc. I don't see the potential for vaccination benefits outweighing the potential for harm from these vaccines.

 

[Barry17]

Why get any vaccine at all with the delta variant now being responsible for the vast majority of infections, and is apparently weaker and far less dangerous than the original virus? The news is filled with reports on the rising number of infections, but fails to contrast those numbers with the fewer number of deaths. And those deaths are mostly from people who have a number of comorbid conditions, such as diabetes, obesity, low Vit. D levels, etc. I don't see the potential for vaccination benefits outweighing the potential for harm from these vaccines.

Totally agreed. The IFR is in the same league as the flu. Furthermore, COVID-19 is still not isolated. It'll be the biggest scandal. Get your vaccine and free food in Cali! That should wake up everybody.

McDonald's offers COVID-19 vaccines, free food at select Bay Area locations

 

[aura]

, not one of the handful of people I know who would be classified as being in the "at risk category" has died, or even been hospitalised).

Wow. I wish I could say the same thing.

I guess when you don't see it actually happening you think it's all rainbows and unicorns. Unfortunately it isn't.

Some friends of mine, young, healthy, were hospitalized for weeks.
Others died. 50, 60-year-old people without serious health problems.
Three of my friends lost a parent because of COVID-19.

I've never seen this happening before.

Well I guess you'll run out of doctors in a few years because almost all of us are vaccinated.

I know A LOT of vaccinated people and they are just fine. Some of them had really nasty, flu like symptoms a few days after but that was all.
Me and my husband, my parents and his parents only had a sore arm.

I've had lots of vaccines done: DTaP, polio, MMR, influenza vaccine for the past 4 years, hepatitis b, pneumococcal vaccine, a RhoGAM shot... and I'm ok. Well... except for my tinnitus

For me, as a doctor, it's simple.

I don't care about rules and masks and vaccine passports and who's making money.
I wash my hands, wear a mask when needed (always K95) and I got vaccinated. It's just common sense in my opinion.

I had my doubts about the vaccine.
But I've read a lot, I've asked my colleagues, people whose opinion I value and respect and I took the leap of faith.

We, doctors, should be the first to set a good example. And we did.
Although there were people saying that it was all an act, that we were injected with saline solution... the amount of fake news, it's just insane.

Of course bad things can happen, they have happened before but I choose to be optimistic. So far, so good.

 

[Barry17]

Wow. I wish I could say the same thing.

I guess when you don't see it actually happening you think it's all rainbows and unicorns. Unfortunately it isn't.

Some friends of mine, young, healthy, were hospitalized for weeks.
Others died. 50, 60-year-old people without serious health problems.
Three of my friends lost a parent because of COVID-19.

I've never seen this happening before.

Well I guess you'll run out of doctors in a few years because almost all of us are vaccinated.

I know A LOT of vaccinated people and they are just fine. Some of them had really nasty, flu like symptoms a few days after but that was all.
Me and my husband, my parents and his parents only had a sore arm.

I've had lots of vaccines done: DTaP, polio, MMR, influenza vaccine for the past 4 years, hepatitis b, pneumococcal vaccine, a RhoGAM shot... and I'm ok. Well... except for my tinnitus

For me, as a doctor, it's simple.

I don't care about rules and masks and vaccine passports and who's making money.
I wash my hands, wear a mask when needed (always K95) and I got vaccinated. It's just common sense in my opinion.

I had my doubts about the vaccine.
But I've read a lot, I've asked my colleagues, people whose opinion I value and respect and I took the leap of faith.

We, doctors, should be the first to set a good example. And we did.
Although there were people saying that it was all an act, that we were injected with saline solution... the amount of fake news, it's just insane.

Of course bad things can happen, they have happened before but I choose to be optimistic. So far, so good.

But the first question for a doctor would be: how serious is the virus? What is the IFR of coronavirus? And compare it to the IFR of influenza. Almost the same. What is happening here?

 

[Juan]

I noticed from the news this morning that major US retailers including WalMart and multiple airlines are giving an October date to all staff as, "get vaxxed, or get fired".

The only problem with that "plan" being that it is not legal and ex-employees would sue their employers.

 

[tracyNYC]

I'm curious if there is anyone else here holding out for the Novavax COVID-19 vaccine?

I was, but now hear it's possible it may not be authorized in the US. Dammit.

COVID-19 vaccinemaker Novavax faces manufacturing setback

 

[Tinker Bell]

The only problem with that "plan" being that it is not legal and ex-employees would sue their employers.

Actually it is legal in the U.S. in at-will states. Legal precedent is already being set that establishes this, too.

Plus, the "U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) issued guidance stating that employers generally can mandate COVID-19 vaccinations for employees who physically enter the workplace without running afoul of the federal anti-discrimination laws it enforces . . ."

Can Employers Mandate a Vaccine Authorized for Emergency Use?

 

[Alexandor Scott]

I was, but now hear it's possible it may not be authorized in the US. Dammit.

COVID-19 vaccinemaker Novavax faces manufacturing setback

I think they'll get their manufacturing worked out relatively quickly. The CEO of Novavax said they're still planning to submit for EUA sometime in October, which means it will likely be late November or early December before its available.

I wish they'd start up another clinical trial or something so I could snag a dose but I guess no need for any more trials at this stage lol.

 

[Julien87]

I'm curious if there is anyone else here holding out for the Novavax COVID-19 vaccine?

Nope, but I am waiting for the French vaccine (Sanofi), which should be launched in several months. It is a recombinant protein vaccine and not an ARN-based one.

Although, I may have to get jabbed with one of those before Sanofi's is released, because here in my country we are kind of forced to get vaccinated (cannot take the train, cannot go to restaurants, cannot go to museums, cinemas etc. if you are not vaccinated or just got tested).

 

[Juan]

Actually it is legal in the U.S. in at-will states. Legal precedent is already being set that establishes this, too.

Plus, the "U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) issued guidance stating that employers generally can mandate COVID-19 vaccinations for employees who physically enter the workplace without running afoul of the federal anti-discrimination laws it enforces . . ."

Can Employers Mandate a Vaccine Authorized for Emergency Use?

It sounds quite against the constitution to me. It would be against the constitution in pretty much any country that the state could force a healthy person to take a medication, a vaccine or a medical treatment against their will.

Take into account that even if a law said that a worker can be forced to get vaccinated, that law would still need to agree with the constitution. Otherwise, what the law says is just void and cannot be applied or enforced.

 

[Tinker Bell]

It sounds quite against the constitution to me. It would be against the constitution in pretty much any country that the state could force a healthy person to take a medication, a vaccine or a medical treatment against their will.

Take into account that even if a law said that a worker can be forced to get vaccinated, that law would still need to agree with the constitution. Otherwise, what the law says is just void and cannot be applied or enforced.

Vaccine mandates are not prohibited by the constitution. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered healthy soldiers to be inoculated against small pox. It was the first mass immunization policy in U.S. history. Today, the U.S. army will require all active military personnel to be receive the covid vaccine by mid-September.

Vaccine requirements for private citizens are not prohibited by the constitution either. Healthy children are required to receive a wide range of vaccinations in order to attend public schools and universities - there are some allowed religious or medical exemptions but this varies by states. In order to attend a private university, I was required to be up-to-date on all vaccinations as well as receive another.

So no, vaccination requirements are not unconstitutional in the U.S. and there is precedent that well establishes their legality.

 

[tracyNYC]

I think they'll get their manufacturing worked out relatively quickly. The CEO of Novavax said they're still planning to submit for EUA sometime in October, which means it will likely be late November or early December before its available.

I wish they'd start up another clinical trial or something so I could snag a dose but I guess no need for any more trials at this stage lol.

This was the sentence in that article that worried me:

The New York Times reported anonymous Biden administration sources saying that it's not clear whether or when the vaccine will be authorized in the United States, which has funded the company with $1.75 billion to develop and make its vaccine.​

I took that to mean the vax may not see the light of day here. But I don't claim to understand much of this stuff.

 

[Lane]

During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered healthy soldiers to be inoculated against small pox.

I might just mention that there is a vast difference between the inoculations of the 1700's, and those that are being used (pedalled?) today.

 

[Jake S]

Vaccine mandates are not prohibited by the constitution. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington ordered healthy soldiers to be inoculated against small pox. It was the first mass immunization policy in U.S. history. Today, the U.S. army will require all active military personnel to be receive the covid vaccine by mid-September.

Vaccine requirements for private citizens are not prohibited by the constitution either. Healthy children are required to receive a wide range of vaccinations in order to attend public schools and universities - there are some allowed religious or medical exemptions but this varies by states. In order to attend a private university, I was required to be up-to-date on all vaccinations as well as receive another.

So no, vaccination requirements are not unconstitutional in the U.S. and there is precedent that well establishes their legality.

You are comparing soldiers to citizens. Huge difference... Need I say more?