2020 US Presidential Election

I hereby state that the great States of Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin were won by the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.
 
"How Trump supporters work" is they live in a reality distortion field, like reducing Obama's term to being a "food stamp President" when he's the one who rescued the economy from the great recession which Trump surfed on until COVID-19, not helped by things like his trade war with China. And how about Trump's vow to "bring back coal"? And don't even get me started with "drain the swamp", capped off by him pardoning his cronies and likely to receive his second impeachment tomorrow.
Well, the US will get rid of Trump by next week. The country and the world will be able to close a dark chapter in history and forget the chap for good.
 
That doesn't seem possible for a layman like myself to believe. Gosh my noise is terrible. Maybe the soup at Olive Garden?
Compare the spread in those same counties in 2016 vs Trump's polling. Yes, the polling had significant errors this year, but they were generally within the margin of error of each poll, or close to.

The reason this has been thrown out of every court that's looked at it, and rejected by all but the most partisan hacks of lawmakers, is that there's nothing to it. It's just Occam's razor at this point. If there were credible evidence of systemic fraud or even if a lot of these counties were way, way, way off the projection, you'd have a lot more serious inquiry.

The math nerds projected a Biden win for months. It was closer than a lot of people expected, but even at that you had Nate Silver and a few others saying "this looks closer, but even if it is, the margins in the polling errors are not sufficient for Trump to overcome this".

Also, why are people challenging the presidential results only when... these same ballots determined every other race in the country?

If you're happy to admit you're a layman then why aren't you accepting the expert opinions of (at this point) dozens of courts as well as the (mostly Republican) secretaries of state? The only people projecting any contrary ideas in media at this point are not experts, they are partisan hacks who can be disqualified pretty easily both on credentials and behavior.
 
I hereby state that the great States of Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin were won by the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.
Too bad, he lost.

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Well, the US will get rid of Trump by next week. The country and the world will be able to close a dark chapter in history and forget the chap for good.
I think he still has tricks to pull to try to preserve his ability to run again in 2024.
 
I think he still has tricks to pull to try to preserve his ability to run again in 2024.
He doesn't really need any tricks to be honest, if the Congress and Senate don't bar him from doing so, he could run again and he has the support to win the nomination. Winning the general would be a big challenge in my opinion but as far as getting the nomination (which is really all he needs to incite a major attack on our democracy), I don't think anything other then his own health could stop him from winning. He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and still win the GOP nomination.
 
Compare the spread in those same counties in 2016 vs Trump's polling. Yes, the polling had significant errors this year, but they were generally within the margin of error of each poll, or close to.

The reason this has been thrown out of every court that's looked at it, and rejected by all but the most partisan hacks of lawmakers, is that there's nothing to it. It's just Occam's razor at this point. If there were credible evidence of systemic fraud or even if a lot of these counties were way, way, way off the projection, you'd have a lot more serious inquiry.

The math nerds projected a Biden win for months. It was closer than a lot of people expected, but even at that you had Nate Silver and a few others saying "this looks closer, but even if it is, the margins in the polling errors are not sufficient for Trump to overcome this".

Also, why are people challenging the presidential results only when... these same ballots determined every other race in the country?

If you're happy to admit you're a layman then why aren't you accepting the expert opinions of (at this point) dozens of courts as well as the (mostly Republican) secretaries of state? The only people projecting any contrary ideas in media at this point are not experts, they are partisan hacks who can be disqualified pretty easily both on credentials and behavior.
The SOS of Georgia won't let them look at the ballots. It's supposed to be a transparent election. Watch the videos.
 
I don't even really care for politics, but there are people here in Michigan who are ready for blood. ...... The people in rural Michigan are usually very respectful people but I'm afraid something seriously bad is going to happen soon.
Hi @Jrblovsky -- Thanks for your comments. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, and people are very respectful and friendly there as well. But I've heard most are now avid Trump supporters, and I suspect some are "ready for blood" as well. It all feels pretty alarming to me.

It sounds like the huge rifts that have been bursting at the seams for the past four years are on the verge of rupturing, and the only people who can tamp this all down are not doing so. That would include Trump, fellow Republican Trump supporters, and right wing media. I guess in order to tamp things down, they'd have to admit they've been lying through their teeth all this time, and be prepared to have less money and political power funnel their way. -- Follow the money!
90% or more were peaceful protesters. The whole thing isn't even sorted out yet. Some say there were bad people from the right and left involved.
I continue to be shocked by the "some" you refer to. If I recall correctly, that includes Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Ron Johnson, Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump, maybe Donald Trump, Jr., various members of right wing media, etc. I'm sure there's more, but to me, they could all be inducted into the "Most Fantastical Liars" Hall of Fame.
I hereby state that the great States of Georgia, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin were won by the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump.
I started chuckling until I realized you actually may be serious. Care to fill us in on whether this is supposed to be serious or funny?
 
Hi @Jrblovsky -- Thanks for your comments. I grew up in rural Wisconsin, and people are very respectful and friendly there as well. But I've heard most are now avid Trump supporters, and I suspect some are "ready for blood" as well. It all feels pretty alarming to me.

It sounds like the huge rifts that have been bursting at the seams for the past four years are on the verge of rupturing, and the only people who can tamp this all down are not doing so. That would include Trump, fellow Republican Trump supporters, and right wing media. I guess in order to tamp things down, they'd have to admit they've been lying through their teeth all this time, and be prepared to have less money and political power funnel their way. -- Follow the money!

I continue to be shocked by the "some" you refer to. If I recall correctly, that includes Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Ron Johnson, Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump, maybe Donald Trump, Jr., various members of right wing media, etc. I'm sure there's more, but to me, they could all be inducted into the "Most Fantastical Liars" Hall of Fame.

I started chuckling until I realized you actually may be serious. Care to fill us in on whether this is supposed to be serious or funny?
Watch the videos of the Georgia hearings.
Others have made other declarations as official as yours.
Watch the Georgia hearings. They have unbiased people testifying.
 
The SOS of Georgia won't let them look at the ballots. It's supposed to be a transparent election. Watch the videos.
"Transparent election" doesn't mean "allowing any person who wants to inspect the ballots".

All legal processes which had been established by a Republican legislature under a Republican GOP were followed, and multiple courts have come to this conclusion. No one has ruled that any laws were broken or even that there was any impropriety of any kind.

They looked at every absentee ballot. They found 10 with signature discrepancies, but verified they were legitimate in each case. Throwing out those 10 votes also would not have mattered.
 
Watch the videos of the Georgia hearings.
I have seen this media; what am I supposed to care about? Circuses of people spouting ideas that the mainstream views as far-right conspiracy theories which the courts and law enforcement have universally rejected isn't going to change anyone's mind.

Ambiguous "watch the video!" demands are not helpful. If you have specific, falsifiable claims you would like to make, then you're welcome to do so and cite whatever sources you have for them which you believe are credible.
 
Watch the videos of the Georgia hearings.
I've already said I'm not inclined to waste 3 hours of my time to watch a video that is likely full of right wing talking points. I asked you to succinctly point out what some of the main points were, and where they were in the video (quote below). I guess you don't feel inclined to do that, so it seems we're at an impasse. That's totally fine with me.
If you can distill in a few words what you think is significant in the video, and parts of the video where you think they make a compelling case, I'd consider taking a look.
 
Trump's support in the 2024 primary dropped from 54 to 42, while this may look good, I'd caution that that 42 is not likely to get any lower. Those folks are the die hards, they are still backing Trump after a coup after all.

It should also be noted that his son has 6% of the vote and they're extremely unlikely to run against each other and it's kinda obvious who his son would endorse in 2024.

This poll confirms that the hit Trump took in his own party was minor and Trump still has the upper hand. I highly recommend you guys look at the poll:

Trump's Grip on 2024 GOP Primary Field Slips in Wake of Capitol Insurrection
 
I've already said I'm not inclined to waste 3 hours of my time to watch a video that is likely full of right wing talking points. I asked you to succinctly point out what some of the main points were, and where they were in the video (quote below). I guess you don't feel inclined to do that, so it seems we're at an impasse. That's totally fine with me.
It's easier for you to watch and see the witnesses firsthand.
 
The fact that you think that this is a zinger of hypocrisy is unbelievable. I've posted about it a million times. Here's the Wikipedia link for the million and first time.

There are so many differences between the two that I don't even know where to begin. Let's start with the fact that Russia really did hack our election and wanted Trump to win. A Republican special counsel determined this; it featured 34 indictments. Trump, himself, was charged with obstruction of justice and was not cleared of collusion. Simply, a Mueller didn't think there was enough evidence. But he specifically said that the president wasn't innocent of this charge.

I don't think you understand that the "election fraud" is totally bogus. Literally, it has no factual basis to it. It's like if I accused you of rape. That's how baseless it is. It is completely and totally, in every single way, about a mad man losing his mind.

If anything, your "zinger" of hypocrisy just reminded us that Trump was close to being impeached 3 times.

I hate when people on the left call it "Russia gate". It's such an enabling way to phrase it. It's infinitely more nuanced. The "gate" aspect of it is whether or not it was the reason Trump won. Personally, I don't think it was the reason why Trump won, but it did occur. Maybe one could say the Democrats were in denial, but it wasn't totally made up like this election fraud bullshit.

Let's not pretend like Trump's loony land world is equivalent to the real world, which featured a real investigation with real indictments by a very bright Republican special counsel leading it. Also, I recall that after Mueller completed his investigation, Democrats accepted his findings. They were upset with Bill Barr for suspiciously redacting the entire report. Mueller himself was upset by this and obsessively tried to lift the redactions.

If there's anything I've learned recently, it's that we aren't being kind by enabling this nonsense. It's just setting people up to think their (actual) fake news is real, and then being surprised by people getting mad at them in the future.
 
It's easier for you to watch and see the witnesses firsthand.
Your reply tells me you don't seem to be capable of providing details for the positions you espouse. It's really quite similar to most of the other people out there making claims about a fraudulent elections, but can seem to provide a scintilla of evidence to support it. Details can usually affirm or deny the veracity of any given claim. The fact that those who make claims of a fraudulent election aren't able to provide those details speak volumes.
 
I've already said I'm not inclined to waste 3 hours of my time to watch a video that is likely full of right wing talking points. I asked you to succinctly point out what some of the main points were, and where they were in the video (quote below). I guess you don't feel inclined to do that, so it seems we're at an impasse. That's totally fine with me.
Are you working? I thought they were interesting.
 
I'm not sure any of the leftists here followed the party line on Russiagate. I could be wrong though. I'll tell you I didn't.
Primarily I think the current resurgence of Russia talk in right wing press is whataboutism for the sake of distraction, because the Russia shit just is not in any way comparable to an armed insurrection which is showing evidence of having been prepared in advance with coordination from some lawmakers

That said, I believe that Russia expended some effort digitally meddling, and if there was anything very illegal about it, it was because of the complete cluelessness of the people in Trump's sphere about where legal lines are and how you conduct legal opposition research, vs not. I think that Russia almost certainly attempted to collect compromising material of some kind on Trump, since it's well known this is standard practice (and I don't doubt the CIA / NSA do similar things when presented with the chance).

To the extent any of this mattered, it is some number of specifically targeted voters who were led to believe conspiracy theories by Facebook posts which could have impacted their vote. I find that obnoxious, but it's not "stealing votes" in the literal sense.

I think my observation about the inexperience and incompetence of Trump's people in this regard is more substantial than whatever Russia did. That is, if Cruz had been up for election, he would likely have found ways to perform the same kind of character assassination and opposition research that Flynn was convicted of lying about, he just would have had career political ghouls and lawyers double checking the mechanisms being used and keeping Cruz and his direct reports well insulated from all this.

So, Russia was probably illegal, but only because of how completely hamfisted and brazen the way it was conducted was, and that just reflects the general idiocy of the people Trump surrounded himself with, even from the very beginning.

If it was actually one of the things that tipped the election in critical places, well, people who subscribe to conspiracy theories from social media are a problem for the electorate in general, and it doesn't really matter too much if the disinfo starts at home or abroad.

I don't think it was a nothingburger, but it also probably wasn't, ultimately, a very good thing for the Dems to invest as much in as they did. On the other hand, their doing so may have been the thing that finally caused Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi to totally lose their grip on reality and get deplatformed and cordoned off into their own weird little corner of the internet, so at least that part is good!

Also w/r/t Russia, the whole concept of Americans being upset at foreign governments meddling in our affairs is deeply amusing to me on multiple levels, since the entire post-WWII history of US foreign policy boils down to "propping up governments we like even if they're bad for the people they govern, and destroying governments we don't like even if they were selected by a democratic process or other process we recognize the legal integrity of in general"

The stature of the US has been hurt tremendously by the last 4 years, but it's just a crystallization of a lot of things that were already in flight. The idea of American Exceptionalism was always broke-brained nationalistic nonsense that is a stepping stone to fascist ideals; the damage that Trump did to US hegemony sped up a lot of things and is not likely to be reparable. That's only bad if you're someone who generally benefits from US hegemony. (Disclosure: I do).
 
I have seen this media; what am I supposed to care about? Circuses of people spouting ideas that the mainstream views as far-right conspiracy theories which the courts and law enforcement have universally rejected isn't going to change anyone's mind.

Ambiguous "watch the video!" demands are not helpful. If you have specific, falsifiable claims you would like to make, then you're welcome to do so and cite whatever sources you have for them which you believe are credible.
I didn't demand anything. I thought the non partisan unbiased testimony was interesting is all.
 
Gym Jordan is human scum.
TBH, should anybody be shocked that these people sold their souls to the highest bidder and are even willing to defend the indefensible? The party they represent has lost any connection to reality and there needs to be a complete rejection from voters and media for what these Republicans stand for. Clearly, there needs to be an oppositional party in Congress, but not one that behaves deplorable like the GOP.
 

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