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2020 US Presidential Election

This whole post literally describes Pete, not FGG -- am I alone in being completely bemused by this??? I genuinely think it might be trolling. Can't believe the name calling has started up again after all of 5 minutes. Thread is unreadable again.
You're the troll. Stop mentioning me. I am not talking to you and have no wish to.

If FGG has a problem with my post, she can tell me. I am just making a point.

Anyway, I am fed up so no need to request censorship again. I am done. I am content with it to leave as is. It's hopeless anyhow. I don't want to continue this topic. It's worn out.
 
Social poll - Who here will go on the record to condemn the violent and lawless actions that have occurred in the last two months including the burning of churches, the murder of a retired St. Louis police officer and a trump supporter in Minnesota, and the destruction of private property/businesses? Let's start with @PeteJ, @FGG and @Tanni.

No qualifiers, do we accept these actions as justified or not?

I'll start, I condemn these actions.
 
First of all, Marxism is authoritarian leftism and most BLM supporters are not Marxist even if one of the founders was is 2015. Even the most left supporters are by far more democratic socialist (e.g. Bernie Sanders) than the USSR. The movement has evolved with the supporters. Read more here:

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/

You did provide a link of a BLM activist in Canada preaching against whites and advocating violent rebellion. She has since apologized and I'm glad.

Plenty of far right violence to go around.

https://www.ajc.com/news/police-ide...hite-supremacists/SQRRJU52ABGU5ENHMCUHN6ZTLY/

And look, here's a pedo one too:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/cr...0200730-obv6sqfrare3hhjae7wmftdz3y-story.html

Let me say unequivocally, I am against racial violence whether it be directed at whites or blacks but there is a whole movement you are not seeing (which is largely very peaceful, notice Portland has been peaceful since Homeland security left? You add fuel to a fire and of course it burns more...) and it is about standing shoulder to shoulder with ALL Americans and making sure "and justice for all" is not just lip service.
 
This doesn't seem like something we should be hoping for? A lot of pain and suffering would have resulted from actual wrong-doing.
I'm hoping for justice. I wish Trump were not the same corrupt businessman as he was before becoming president but I don't see that as likely.
 
Social poll - Who here will go on the record to condemn the violent and lawless actions that have occurred in the last two months including the burning of churches, the murder of a retired St. Louis police officer and a trump supporter in Minnesota, and the destruction of private property/businesses? Let's start with @PeteJ, @FGG and @Tanni.

No qualifiers, do we accept these actions as justified or not?

I'll start, I condemn these actions.
I answered that for Pete. I said "I don't agree with looting or unprovoked instigating BUT disagreed that it represented BLM as a whole."

I don't consider that a "qualifier", it's a nuanced issue.
 
I genuinely think it might be trolling.
I've arrived at a similar conclusion. There is no way someone can be this dishonest about representing their own views. The reason why I want @PeteJ to just admit that he's generally conservative is not because I want a "Gotcha!" moment, but because I want the conversation be more honest. It seems like he wants to exploit the fact that he's a Canadian so he doesn't have to vote for one of them. Then he can play mind games by saying he's an intellectual against both sides. A cookie cutter contrarian approach to politics that drives me nuts.

It would be like me saying the following:

"Biden's not perfect and I don't agree with all of his positions, but...my god, the evil worthless fascist scumbags who vote for Trump are going to destroy the planet. Hey you, reading this, you're a fascist! And a hypocrite! Your worldviews are totally idiotic and irredeemable. Let's get in a fight over this!

Oh, by the way, I hate them both equally, and you're an idiot for not seeing that. "

Like what? And for the record, my inflection and viewpoints are consistent.

  • I claim to be center left with some progressive leanings. This is consistent since I voted for Sanders in the 2016 primaries, Hillary in the election, and Bernie was my 3rd choice in the 2020 primaries.
  • I claim to dislike both sides, but I have stronger emotional responses against Trump, which is why I am easily voting for Joe Biden.
I think dishonesty is killing this thread more than a difference of opinion. I am being called a "Marxist" when I am skeptical of M4A, $15 minimum wage, free college, and am pretty damn pro-police. Lol, what can you do?
 
I've arrived at a similar conclusion. There is no way someone can be this dishonest about representing their own views. The reason why I want @PeteJ to just admit that he's generally conservative is not because I want a "Gotcha!" moment, but because I want the conversation be more honest. It seems like he wants to exploit the fact that he's a Canadian so he doesn't have to vote for one of them. Then he can play mind games by saying he's an intellectual against both sides. A cookie cutter contrarian approach to politics that drives me nuts.

It would be like me saying the following:

"Biden's not perfect and I don't agree with all of his positions, but...my god, the evil worthless fascist scumbags who vote for Trump are going to destroy the planet. Hey you, reading this, you're a fascist! And a hypocrite! Your worldviews are totally idiotic and irredeemable. Let's get in a fight over this!

Oh, by the way, I hate them both equally, and you're an idiot for not seeing that. "

Like what? And for the record, my inflection and viewpoints are consistent.

  • I claim to be center left with some progressive leanings. This is consistent since I voted for Sanders in the 2016 primaries, Hillary in the election, and Bernie was my 3rd choice in the 2020 primaries.
  • I claim to dislike both sides, but I have stronger emotional responses against Trump, which is why I am easily voting for Joe Biden.
I think dishonesty is killing this thread more than a difference of opinion. I am being called a "Marxist" when I am skeptical of M4A, $15 minimum wage, free college, and am pretty damn pro-police. Lol, what can you do?
The only way you could conclude I'm dishonest is if you're unintelligent.
 
First of all, Marxism is authoritarian leftism and most BLM supporters are not Marxist even if one of the founders was is 2015. Even the most left supporters are by far more democratic socialist (e.g. Bernie Sanders) than the USSR. The movement has evolved with the supporters. Read more here:

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/

You did provide a link of a BLM activist in Canada preaching against whites and advocating violent rebellion. She has simce apologized and I'm glad.

Plenty of far right violence to go around.

https://www.ajc.com/news/police-ide...hite-supremacists/SQRRJU52ABGU5ENHMCUHN6ZTLY/

And look, here's a pedo one too:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/cr...0200730-obv6sqfrare3hhjae7wmftdz3y-story.html

Let me say unequivocally, I am against racial violence whether it be directed at whites or blacks but there is a whole movement you are not seeing (which is largely very peaceful, notice Portland has been peaceful since Homeland security left? You add fuel to a fire and of course it burns more...) and it is about standing shoulder to shoulder with ALL Americans and making sure "and justice for all" is not just lip service.
You're impossible to talk to. I am concluding that you are either oblivious, insane or just lying.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/rioters-vandalize-portland-police-association-fire-protest

It's just too much.
 
The only way you could conclude I'm dishonest is if you're unintelligent.
There's a better chance of me being a misguided moron than you being a real person. I will agree with that.
 
Social poll - Who here will go on the record to condemn the violent and lawless actions that have occurred in the last two months including the burning of churches, the murder of a retired St. Louis police officer and a trump supporter in Minnesota, and the destruction of private property/businesses? Let's start with @PeteJ, @FGG and @Tanni.

No qualifiers, do we accept these actions as justified or not?

I'll start, I condemn these actions.
The very, very specific actions that you mentioned. Absolutely I condemn them, and easily. There are zero excuses for violence and looting.
 
Social poll - Who here will go on the record to condemn the violent and lawless actions that have occurred in the last two months including the burning of churches, the murder of a retired St. Louis police officer and a trump supporter in Minnesota, and the destruction of private property/businesses? Let's start with @PeteJ, @FGG and @Tanni.

No qualifiers, do we accept these actions as justified or not?

I'll start, I condemn these actions.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...are-riot-renewed-black-lives-matter-protests/

I am done after this. These are all far left protesters and Marxists. BLM is a front for it and the Democrats support it and are funded by it. Of course, I condemn it but so what?

Talk is cheap. I don't trust any of the posters here as they support all of this. I'm glad that they are Americans.

Have fun jabbering with them.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/01/the-agenda-of-black-lives-matter-is-far-different-from-the-slogan/

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16181/black-lives-matter

https://thefederalist.com/2016/09/28/black-lives-matter-bringing-back-traditional-marxism/

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/20...t-blm-has-agenda-that-would-make-lenin-blush/

I object to the lies here, people trying to get me censored when I am just making a point. But, I know there's nothing I can do about it. The only trolls are the ones trying to censor. I bid adieu with a middle finger.

Have fun with your white-hating Marxist and Black militant groups. I'm sure they will all treat you well.
 
This doesn't seem like something we should be hoping for? A lot of pain and suffering would have resulted from actual wrong-doing.
These are Tucker Carlson kind of mind games. I guess all Trump supporters are anti-American because they wanted Hillary locked up for her email scandal (that Ivanka also did). After all, we shouldn't hope that our Secretary of State committed a crime, should we?

Let me say this clearly: I love America and don't want to see it die from corruption.
 
The low blow of "you must hate America" has to stop from everyone (this isn't directed at anyone, just a general remark). I think most Trump voters are severely misguided, but I think in their minds, they want the country to succeed. I think most people who are pro police want the country to succeed. The right always preaches "diversity of ideas," but then they get triggered and infer people are anti-American when they disagree. I believe Colin Kaepernick, Kanye West, LeBron James, Rush Limbaugh, Bernie Sanders, AOC, Mike Pence, Obama, etc. all love their country.

Even Trump, I don't think dislikes his country, I think he just loves himself much, much more.
 
I answered that for Pete. I said "I don't agree with looting or unprovoked instigating BUT disagreed that it represented BLM as a whole."

I don't consider that a "qualifier", it's a nuanced issue.
I didn't mention BLM yet your entire post is qualified. Do you reject or not the specific instances that I mentioned?
 
These are Tucker Carlson kind of mind games. I guess all Trump supporters are anti-American because they wanted Hillary locked up for her email scandal (that Ivanka also did). After all, we shouldn't hope that our Secretary of State committed a crime, should we?

Let me say this clearly: I love America and don't want to see it die from corruption.
It's not a mind-game at all. We are increasingly allowing our dislike for someone to influence our desires for evil to occur. Often times, it is based on conjecture and not off hard based facts. Many of us are guilty of this, I catch myself as well.

I think you mentioned Hillary. It is my understanding that she already committed an offense that was comparable to what a navy officer did and was harshly punished for. For many, it was a desire for equal treatment, not special treatment. You obviously can't say that there was no personally disdain for her and that motivated some people's desire for justice as well, but to wish an evil on someone for not liking them is simply inappropriate and Id Denounce that.
 
You're impossible to talk to. I am concluding that you are either oblivious, insane or just lying.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/rioters-vandalize-portland-police-association-fire-protest

It's just too much.
This is why I didn't want to engage with you before btw. When I do answer your questions but have a different opinion, your response is always that I am some form of delusional and when I don't, you accuse me of not answering you. It's lose-lose so it is better if we just agree to disagree.
 
Obama is a 'moderate" Republican.' You have flipped your lid.
I rest my case. What was the point of Obama trying to appease conservatives? He's going to be called a left wing radical either way. I say this as someone who likes Obama; he and even Sanders hold very different positions.
 
@Zugzug, I think it's unfair that you called me dishonest. I just thought I would say so. I don't support nor vote for the Conservative party here in Canada. I think our system is rigged too but that's a lengthy topic.

I think you and others want to compartmentalize me into your "Conservative/Republican' image you have so you can criticize it/me because that is all you know what to do. I assure you I don't fit there. If you want to think I am dishonest, that's your prerogative but I will think something about you in response. I have that right, too.

But, I am called troll and I can foresee my perspective and style being reported or misconstrued so I am okay to let you guys chat amongst yourselves. I hope I am allowed the courtesy to just explain my point though. I think any political change will be a bad one. Maybe I can die by vaccine if it works quickly.
 
First of all, Marxism is authoritarian leftism and most BLM supporters are not Marxist even if one of the founders was is 2015. Even the most left supporters are by far more democratic socialist (e.g. Bernie Sanders) than the USSR. The movement has evolved with the supporters. Read more here:

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/

You did provide a link of a BLM activist in Canada preaching against whites and advocating violent rebellion. She has since apologized and I'm glad.

Plenty of far right violence to go around.

https://www.ajc.com/news/police-ide...hite-supremacists/SQRRJU52ABGU5ENHMCUHN6ZTLY/

And look, here's a pedo one too:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/cr...0200730-obv6sqfrare3hhjae7wmftdz3y-story.html

Let me say unequivocally, I am against racial violence whether it be directed at whites or blacks but there is a whole movement you are not seeing (which is largely very peaceful, notice Portland has been peaceful since Homeland security left? You add fuel to a fire and of course it burns more...) and it is about standing shoulder to shoulder with ALL Americans and making sure "and justice for all" is not just lip service.
The evidence I've seen does not support the notion that protests have been peaceful in Portland after homeland security left. Where did you hear that?

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/lo...ests/283-3c2627f2-8a27-4883-a6b8-a2b612291ddc
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...are-riot-renewed-black-lives-matter-protests/

I am done after this. These are all far left protesters and Marxists. BLM is a front for it and the Democrats support it and are funded by it. Of course, I condemn it but so what?

Talk is cheap. I don't trust any of the posters here as they support all of this. I'm glad that they are Americans.

Have fun jabbering with them.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/01/the-agenda-of-black-lives-matter-is-far-different-from-the-slogan/
Why be done? @Zugzug had no problem condemning the violence. That shows me there's room for conversation.
 
I rest my case. What was the point of Obama trying to appease conservatives? He's going to be called a left wing radical either way. I say this as someone who likes Obama; he and even Sanders hold very different positions.
In the US there is no left party really... there are degrees of the right wing, and that's all.
 
@Zugzug, I think it's unfair that you called me dishonest. I just thought I would say so. I don't support nor vote for the Conservative party here in Canada. I think our system is rigged too but that's a lengthy topic.

I think you and others want to compartmentalize me into your "Conservative/Republican' image you have so you can criticize it/me because that is all you know what to do. I assure you I don't fit there. If you want to think I am dishonest, that's your prerogative but I will think something about you in response. I have that right, too.

But, I am called troll and I can foresee my perspective and style being reported or misconstrued so I am okay to let you guys chat amongst yourselves. I hope I am allowed the courtesy to just explain my point though. I think any political change will be a bad one. Maybe I can die by vaccine if it works quickly.
Let's say you are not trolling. By trolling, I mean the person knows what they are saying is triggering someone because it's stupid, but they like getting the rise out of the person.

Then I don't believe you are knowingly dishonest. I think it's subconscious. Here's what I'll say in an effort to be as generous as possible, assuming you have good faith. Wading into another country's politics can be difficult because the raw emotion of living there is removed. It's very, very easy to be "both sides" about another country's leaders. I'm picturing myself weighing in on Canada's affairs (of which I am clueless on). I would approach that task very cautiously.

Respectfully, you being frustrated about people boxing in your political views is 100% projection. You came into this thread with the intention to shut down your disdain for leftists. That's okay, you should just admit it. You most certainly did not come here to acknowledge the understandable reasons why people on the left hate Trumpism.

The things you say are so extreme. Even in the quote above, you basically said you are going to end up dying from left-wing enforced COVID-19 vaccines (if I am understanding correctly). You are literally describing personal death from leftists. Where have you ever made a remark about Trumpism leading to fascism and government take over? Or Trumpism leading to more corruption and the end of the rule of law for the non-elite? Your posts clearly do not reveal an equal fear of both sides. Which is fine! My posts don't show an equal fear of both sides because I don't fear both sides equally.

Again, I am trying to help the conversations. I think you react poorly because you think you are saying super "both sidesy" things but you are not. I know many people who voted for Trump. Even some pretty die hards. None of them are as into his talking points as you are. I'm not sure if it's because you don't live in the US so you don't see it first hand, but you would be a very obvious Trump vote here. Again, as much as this saddens me, this is fine!

I'm not even asking you to say "I love Trump" when you don't. Just be real about the fact that you are pretty damn apologetic to Trumpism.
 


Trump has done nothing but talk and tweet about the crimes and violence. Wow, he called BLM a Marxist organization. Big whippy do. Maybe I just don't understand the state and federal system in the USA and he can't do much... I dunno. So, you want me to criticize Trump? I just did. He was a slimeball and maybe still is, I dunno. I will repeat, I think he is a puppet but what I can't figure out is how much is he trying to "resist" that.

The problem in this thread is that the majority of you and I are on such different 'pages' and perspectives. You can't fathom my perspective and I can't, yours. So we will just 'fight' - you will get upset at my accusations and I won't care much about yours. ;-)

I think that's the issue so that's another reason I will end my participation. But, I wanted to show I don't share "typical conservative or Republican " reviews.

I am not really a libertarian or anarchist either but this article is pretty good, I have to admit:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/02/jack-kerwick/the-big-con-and-why-the-left-will-continue-to-win/
 
It's not a mind-game at all. We are increasingly allowing our dislike for someone to influence our desires for evil to occur. Often times, it is based on conjecture and not off hard based facts. Many of us are guilty of this, I catch myself as well.

I think you mentioned Hillary. It is my understanding that she already committed an offense that was comparable to what a navy officer did and was harshly punished for. For many, it was a desire for equal treatment, not special treatment. You obviously can't say that there was no personally disdain for her and that motivated some people's desire for justice as well, but to wish an evil on someone for not liking them is simply inappropriate and Id Denounce that.
I agree that the country should come first. I can tell you this much. Any of my desire for Trump to get burned is because I want to restore justice in the country that I love. I think our perspectives are different on him. I believe he is an evil, corrupt, predatory, incompetent sociopath. I want him to get caught for his wrongdoings.

What I don't want to happen is some person we thought was clean ends up being super dirty and causing harm for the country. No one is rooting for the country to die.

Even Bill Maher, who has said that he hopes the economy crashes to get rid of Trump....as awful as that sounds, he has a vision (perhaps incorrectly) that the prospects for America will still be better under these circumstances. You can say it's extreme and I would agree. But my point is that very, very few people actually just want to sit around and laugh at their country dying. I would argue the ones that do are probably foreigners. Why would someone want their country to die? It's not even motivating.
 
Let's say you are not trolling. By trolling, I mean the person knows what they are saying is triggering someone because it's stupid, but they like getting the rise out of the person.

Then I don't believe you are knowingly dishonest. I think it's subconscious. Here's what I'll say in an effort to be as generous as possible, assuming you have good faith. Wading into another country's politics can be difficult because the raw emotion of living there is removed. It's very, very easy to be "both sides" about another country's leaders. I'm picturing myself weighing in on Canada's affairs (of which I am clueless on). I would approach that task very cautiously.

Respectfully, you being frustrated about people boxing in your political views is 100% projection. You came into this thread with the intention to shut down your disdain for leftists. That's okay, you should just admit it. You most certainly did not come here to acknowledge the understandable reasons why people on the left hate Trumpism.

The things you say are so extreme. Even in the quote above, you basically said you are going to end up dying from left-wing enforced COVID-19 vaccines (if I am understanding correctly). You are literally describing personal death from leftists. Where have you ever made a remark about Trumpism leading to fascism and government take over? Or Trumpism leading to more corruption and the end of the rule of law for the non-elite? Your posts clearly do not reveal an equal fear of both sides. Which is fine! My posts don't show an equal fear of both sides because I don't fear both sides equally.

Again, I am trying to help the conversations. I think you react poorly because you think you are saying super "both sidesy" things but you are not. I know many people who voted for Trump. Even some pretty die hards. None of them are as into his talking points as you are. I'm not sure if it's because you don't live in the US so you don't see it first hand, but you would be a very obvious Trump vote here. Again, as much as this saddens me, this is fine!

I'm not even asking you to say "I love Trump" when you don't. Just be real about the fact that you are pretty damn apologetic to Trumpism.
You are projecting and just saying what you want to be true. You haven't understood my points or posts at all.

I will repeat ad nauseam. There are no 'sides.' But, those at the top will use the Left especially the radical left, for their own ends. If you want to believe I support Trump, I don't care.

You don't understand my perspective, intentionally or unintentionally. Whatever, dude.
 
You are projecting and just saying what you want to be true. You haven't understood my points or posts at all.

I will repeat ad nauseam. There are no 'sides.' But, those at the top will use the Left especially the radical left, for their own ends. If you want to believe I support Trump, I don't care.

You don't understand my perspective, intentionally or unintentionally. Whatever, dude.
You are right. We don't understand each other and it may be on a subconscious level.
 
I didn't mention BLM yet your entire post is qualified. Do you reject or not the specific instances that I mentioned?
I know you didn't but I was putting it in a greater context because this is a political thread and church burning is being brought up in that context of the protests and I felt like it's important to reiterate that it doesn't represent the goals of the movement or the vast majority if the supporters.

But *of course* unprovoked violence is wrong and of course burning a church is wrong. I reject those things.
 

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