2020 US Presidential Election

[FGG]

I believe children are allowed to own guns in most states? I guess it's very hard to restrict access to guns in America because the right to use them is enshrined in the Constitution. Also, it's probably quite a circular thing now: everyone has them, so everyone needs them to protect from everyone who has them.

Maybe that could have been tried a hundred million guns in possession ago.

In the US, even the suggestion that there may be more restrictions coming causes record gun sales and stockpiling.

I honestly think if politicians made it clear that they weren't going to "take away 2nd amendment rights" as feared but implement sensible measures such as holding adults accountable if their kids get a hold of their guns to commit a felony, better background checks and less loopholes etc etc, they could get some needed measures passed.

 

[FGG]

It is still better than Trump's suggestion of injecting bleach to cure COVID...

To be fair to Trump, it was isopropyl alcohol and not bleach .

 

[Zugzug]

I dont disagree and even in an earlier post (i think at least) I mentioned one of the biggest things they have to do is a better job at screen/recruiting.
I disagree with smearing. How about the smearing of innocent black lives by the police and media after they are wrongfully killed? The head of the NYPD Police Union said it was the worst day of the departments history when the cop that placed Eric Garner in an illegal choke hold and killed him was fired from the dept. Sorry but if the bosses of the cops are saying bs like that, then I dont see people just getting on their knees and licking boots. At this point, it is a crisis that needs solving. Tamir Rice was 12 and playing with a toy, it took hours for the media to be all over it with 'where are his parents' 'he had it coming it was a toy gun'...there are more example than can be counted. You know why bad cops get smeared? There are so goddamned many instances of cops being violent and unnecessarily aggressive and the good cops just doing nothing and watching. Cops absolutely will not be respected until they stop acting like the own the streets and should have their asses kissed by every one they see. If as many roofers killed as many innocent people as cops, we wouldnt be saying 'pay roofers more' or 'they just need better training' or 'not all roofers'v we would do our best to actually solve the problem. It is a job that as you stated more is expected of a person, so when a mistake is made that costs someone their life, the public should absolutely know about it. Especially since in many of these instances, that officer has a violent history within the dept that went unpunished.
IMO payment is not in issues with most Police Departments (well aware of the previous article posted). In fact due to unlimited/unchecked OT payment is insane. In Boston a study came out months ago that showed a huge number of officers who made more than the mayor of Boston last year. That's over $200,000 a year...The incentives are there. When we stop rewarding them and actually start punishing them is when problems will start getting solved.
Did you read the article i posted about hate groups and white supremacists infiltrating the nations police force as warned by the FBI? Article was published a few years ago and cited that it had been happening for years. If it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch, I have to wonder how many bad apples are out there after 10-15 years of getting their hooks into police depts.

Also just to be clear- I hope none of that sounded disrespectful to you as I think you have been doing a lot of of good in this thread and truly hope it doesnt come across that way---this is just an issue that gets to me quite a bit, in fact I have been trying to stay out of this thread at times bc sometimes i get carried away so apologies if anything.

I realize where you are coming from. In my post, when I talk about smearing, I mixed it in with some pro police language so I fully understand why I didn't convey my point clearly. I feel like this thread has a leftward skew (which I am a contributor of) so I was naturally a little careless with qualifiers. It's pretty clear, since I get baited into sparring with Pete every day, that I am not a right wing shill.

When I say smearing, what I really mean is smearing groups over the actions of individuals. This includes police, but it also includes racial groups. It frustrates me when we make systemic arguments based on individual injustices. In the link that you shared, none of that surprises me. And to be clear, I am not saying we shouldn't address systemic problems. I am just saying that the justification should be systemic data.

I can tell you this much. Maybe I have a biased set of experiences that formulate my opinions on police. I will acknowledge this. But for whatever reason, I view policing as an important, under appreciated job. These views transcend race. Whenever there's a video of a police encounter, I will typically look to see if the person was listening to the police officer and if there was anything they were doing that would make the police officer feel threatened (e.g. reaching for a weapon, trying to disarm the police officer). I think the left under estimates how difficult these scenarios are. And again, this has nothing to do with race. It just happens to be the case that the most viral videos are always involving a white police officer and a person of color. But I view it similarly when it's a white cop, white person. As an example, I recently watched the video involving Daniel Shaver. The entire time, I looked at the video carefully until I came to the conclusion that an injustice was served against him. I think of the perspective of both people involved in these shootings.

I am tired of having to choose a side. I side with good people. America is so divided and I am exhausted by it. Tucker Carlson will cherry pick and fear monger about the scary minorities every day. The MSM will cherry pick the worst cops. I am ready to judge people as individuals.

 

[DaveN]

I think being an officer is a difficult job. But all of the doubts the public has of the police is their own doing...

"Whenever there's a video of a police encounter, I will typically look to see if the person was listening to the police officer and if there was anything they were doing that would make the police officer feel threatened (e.g. reaching for a weapon, trying to disarm the police officer)."

There is a video making the rounds on twitter rn (i will try to find out) where it shows a young white man carrying a giant gun of some kind, screaming at police acting erratically, evading police and resisting arrest... But they arrested him with no issues...Pretend for a minute a black guy was screaming at police with an ar-15 in his hands resisting arrest...you know that in that scenario that man gets killed within seconds...i mean it took cops literally less than ten seconds to roll up and kill a 12 year old holding a toy

That is one thing you can look for in the video but also ask yourself what started the interaction? In a lot of these instances police are harassing innocent people. When innocent people get harassed they have a right to be upset. Especially when most black people will say they have been stopped or questioned by police for literally nothing. That has never in my life happened to me. I have never been stopped by police or harassed. And every single black person I know or have spoken to has. Black people are justifiable tired of not being given the benefit of the doubt that bad murdering cops get.
I have one more question to pose on people who feel like answering; Do you think the majority of black people are lying in saying they feel like they have been unjustly discriminated against by the police?

 

[Zugzug]

There is a video making the rounds on twitter rn (i will try to find out) where it shows a young white man carrying a giant gun of some kind, screaming at police acting erratically, evading police and resisting arrest... But they arrested him with no issues...Pretend for a minute a black guy was screaming at police with an ar-15 in his hands resisting arrest...you know that in that scenario that man gets killed within seconds...i mean it took cops literally less than ten seconds to roll up and kill a 12 year old holding a toy

I have not seen this video, but if this is the case, I 100% agree that it could have gone differently if the person was not white. I also want to add that if anyone is waving around an AR-15, resisting arrest, and gets killed, I do not view that as an indictment of the police officer. My takeaway from this story is that the man was lucky (maybe due to his race) to not have been killed, not that the police officer finally handled something correctly. Some police shootings are justified; this person lucked out. It's also possible that this police officer was notably trigger-shy and race had nothing to do with it. The officers involved in Tamir Rice and those involved in this story are different officers. Again, judge people as individuals.

That is one thing you can look for in the video but also ask yourself what started the interaction?

In the case of Daniel Shaver, the cops were primed with reports that he was aiming a rifle out of his hotel window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver . Later, the rifle was determined to be a pellet gun.

But yes, I agree that people of color get harassed over petty things far more often, all else being equal.

 

[FGG]

I have not seen this video, but if this is the case, I 100% agree that it could have gone differently if the person was not white.


In the case of Daniel Shaver, the cops were primed with reports that he was aiming a rifle out of his hotel window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver . Later, the rifle was determined to be a pellet gun.

But yes, I agree that people of color get harassed over petty things far more often, all else being equal.

And sometimes it isn't strictly racism per se but the knowledge that poor black people do not have the resources to fight the percentage of cops who do have darker tendencies.

Take Daniel Holtzclaw for instance. He targeted and raped poor black women for years while in uniform precisely because they wouldn't be believed and couldn't hire lawyers.

 

[DaveN]

Apologies I am conflating multiple stories I am sincerely sorry---
I am combining three videos ive seen lately;


White guy charges at police screaming with a machete--the man is arrested and unharmed.

Multiple white men armed with semi-autos stormed a govt building in protest while screaming in the faces of police (a reach but imagine if 50+ armed black people forcefully entered a govt bldg)

A white man refused to comply with demands, resisted arrest, attacks and officer, goes to his car and opens his door to attempt to retrieve something, chases the police officer, and eventually actually tries to steal the officers car...the man was arrested unharmed.

https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/1298957528403980288?s=21 (hopefully the video links I am terrible at this sorry)

The last one especially stands out, bc of how many innocent ppl have been killed bc cops were afraid they were reaching for something of made a movement they didnt like...

Also worth noting that police brought Dylan Roof to BK and gave him a courtesy bullet proof vest upon arrest/transport. I think the discrepancy is there and is much bigger than people (not you) are willing to realize.

 

[DaveN]

Also I want to be clear on two things;
I am extremely sorry for misrepresenting facts in the previous post and conflating multiple stories.
I want there to be police in the world and think there is value and a need for them. I just think the police force as we know it needs to be changed very radically from top to bottom. I appreciate good cops, but too many good cops stay silent and therefore are complicit.

 

[FGG]

I was thinking a lot about what @Zugzug has been saying about incentives to hire better cops and I have a few thoughts.

1) Can this be studied? I.e. can someone research what factors might motivate higher quantity of quality cops to join up. If so, it should be researched immediately.

2) My intuition tells me (but again number 1 should be used to see if this has merit) that if you make sincere community outreach part of the job (i.e. 1-2 days a week), it would attract more people with the right motives. The wrong people are not going to want to spend 25-50% of their time on this. I don't think this is unreasonable either, doctors are expected to spend time on preventative medicine and education as part of their job it should be the same.

This also helps with trust and cooperation with cops because people would see that not every cop would choke someone for selling cigarettes illegally (Eric Garner) for instance.

Good cops speaking out against bad cops would go a very long way towards addressing this too. Cops should be an example of the law, not above it.

I think licensing and having state boards would go a long way towards giving good cops an anonymous way to report the bad actors for investigation without the social/workplace risks.

This is more work so pay them more. Pay them a lot more. Give them a professional license that they are accountable for and then pay them accordingly.

And for God's sake, get rid of nonsense like this:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

 

[all to gain]

Let's just presume for a second that Trump wins.

What does the next four years hold in store?

 

[Zugzug]

I was thinking a lot about what @Zugzug has been saying about incentives to hire better cops and I have a few thoughts.

1) Can this be studied? I.e. can someone research what factors might motivate higher quantity of quality cops to join up. If so, it should be researched immediately.

2) My intuition tells me (but again number 1 should be used to see if this has merit) that if you make sincere community outreach part of the job (i.e. 1-2 days a week), it would attract more people with the right motives. The wrong people are not going to want to spend 25-50% of their time on this. I don't think this is unreasonable either, doctors are expected to spend time on preventative medicine and education as part of their job it should be the same.

This also helps with trust and cooperation with cops because people would see that not every cop would choke someone for selling cigarettes illegally (Eric Garner) for instance.

Good cops speaking out against bad cops would go a very long way towards addressing this too. Cops should be an example of the law, not above it.

I think licensing and having state boards would go a long way towards giving good cops an anonymous way to report the bad actors for investigation without the social/workplace risks.

This is more work so pay them more. Pay them a lot more. Give them a professional license that they are accountable for and then pay them accordingly.

And for God's sake, get rid of nonsense like this:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

I agree with all of this. Much more community outreach so that when a cop does need to act, it is trusted to be in good faith.

 

[just1morething]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

 

[FGG]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

All tbe polls not conducted by Trump have him losing. That being said, I have never seen Fivethirtyeight write anything like this before.

 

[Zugzug]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

I don't think he'll win, but I do think the election will get super ugly. There's no scenario where this is clean. We are going to be waiting for results to be tallied. Trump will be doubting the results if he's losing. If Biden is losing, all of the talk will be about Trump's shady postmaster general. Trump won't hesitate to gaslight. Biden will awkwardly be the one in charge to stop it. Really depressing stuff all around.

 

[Tanni]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

I definitely think he's getting in again. America usually give their Presidents two terms, right?

 

[DaveN]

The VA bill he takes credit for was passed by Obama in 2014
The 9,000 New Black jobs he created were after a historic 22,000 were unemployed on his watch.
The pre-existing conditions he says he fought for/is fighting for isn't included in his health plan.
The country that is being torn apart right now happened under his watch for 4 years.

 

[FGG]

The VA bill he takes credit for was passed by Obama in 2014
The 9,000 New Black jobs he created were after a historic 22,000 were unemployed on his watch.
The pre-existing conditions he says he fought for/is fighting for isn't included in his health plan.
The country that is being torn apart right now happened under his watch for 4 years.

And his "wall" so far has been just revision of existing wall except for 5 miles. And Mexico didn't pay for it as promised.

 

[all to gain]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

He has had some decent ideas, but I just don't trust anyone who 1) sees Putin as a god and 2) who doesn't stick by and believe his own intelligence services. Then there is his temperament and lack of self-awareness of how others are viewing him.

I also can see him being re-elected.

 

[Lilah]

I personally think Trump will get re-elected whether you like him, hate him, or are indifferent. He has done some positive things as he outlined in his RNC speech. I do understand that he has some bad traits as well.

Many on the left seem shocked. What the speakers said during the four nights of the RNC convention about Trump and his accomplishments actually doesn't surprise me too much. I have been following him closely on conservative sites as well and I was already aware of many of his accomplishments. However, the traditional news media is biased and doesn't cover all this, so I can understand the shock. However I agree his reactions to some events like Charlottesville wasn't good enough.

The election will be close I think and there will probably be a lot of cheating going on (dead people and animals voting, etc.), but I'm sure Trump isn't afraid to cheat also unlike the more genteel Republicans before him.

 

[Lane]

The article linked below is good example of the many faces of bad cops and police brutality against blacks. Multiply this story by many times over, and you start to get an idea of the varied ways people of color are treated in the U.S., and have been since even before its inception.

BTW, most Americans are taught that the "founding fathers" of the U.S. should be put on some kind of pedestal for standing up for the rights of human beings, and the cause of freedom. My understanding is that the bigger picture was far more complex and nuanced than standing up for those ideals.

It appears a far greater reason such a disparate group of early colonial Americans were able to come together, compromise, and form the U.S. was because... they saw how England was starting to turn against slavery, and if that came to pass, knew if would only be a matter of time before slavery would be outlawed in America.

They knew their almost unimaginable wealth (by historical standards) depended almost entirely on slavery, and they were willing to go to war with England to hold onto that wealth at all costs. Doesn't sound too idealistic when you look at it from that perspective. -- And now here's a picture from present day America...

A Black man is freed from prison 44 years after he was wrongly convicted of rape

Long, now 64, was accused of raping a White woman. An all-White jury found him guilty of rape and burglary in 1976 and him sentenced to life in prison. His conviction was vacated Thursday after the state of North Carolina filed a motion in federal court seeking to do so.

Since Long was convicted, "a trickle of post-trial disclosures has unearthed a troubling and striking pattern of deliberate police suppression of material evidence," US Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Stephanie Thacker wrote.

That evidence, which included semen samples and fingerprints from the crime scene that did not match Long, was deliberately withheld by law enforcement, Thacker said in the filing.

"Because of the deceit that occurred at trial, Ronnie and his counsel at the time didn't have the benefit of that evidence to present to the jury," Long's attorney, Jamie Lau, a law professor at Duke University and a faculty adviser for the Duke Law Innocence Project, told CNN. "So he's been wrongly incarcerated for 44 years."​

 

[Lane]

From THIS ARTICLE in the Atlantic online magazine. Speaking (quite eloquently) is the mother of the Jacob Blake, the Kenosha, Wisconsin man who was shot in the back that touched of the latest round of protests, demonstrations, and violence. It appears her last words may have been directed at Trump, but who's to say.

She says that her son would not be happy with the damage to his community. "As I have prayed for my son's healing, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, I also have been praying, even before this, for the healing of our country," Jackson says, and she goes on: "We are the United States. Have we been united? Do you understand what's going to happen when we fall? Because a house that is against each other cannot stand.

To all of the police officers, I'm praying for you and your families. To all of the citizens, my Black and brown sisters and brothers, I'm praying for you. I believe that you are an intelligent being just like the rest of us. Everybody, let's use our hearts, our love, and our intelligence to work together to show the rest of the world how humans are supposed to treat each other. America is great when we behave greatly."​

 

[Lane]

Is it any wonder why the Trump administration's response to the pandemic has been so disastrous?

Just last month, Vanity Fair reported on Jared Kushner's failure to come up with a plan for national coronavirus testing.

Most troubling of all, perhaps, was a sentiment the expert said a member of Kushner's team expressed: that because the virus had hit blue states hardest, a national plan was unnecessary and would not make sense politically. "The political folks believed that because it was going to be relegated to Democratic states, that they could blame those governors, and that would be an effective political strategy," said the expert.
​

And now, perhaps a little humor...

Donald Trump Campaign's Use Of 'Hallelujah' Draws Rebuke From Leonard Cohen's Estate, Sony/ATV

Donald Trump's campaign and the Republican National Committee are under fire for the use of another piece of music: Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah."...

Michelle Rice, legal representative for Cohen's estate, said in a statement that they were "surprised and dismayed" that the RNC would use the song knowing they "had specifically declined the RNC's use request, and their rather brazen attempt to politicize and exploit in such an egregious manner 'Hallelujah,' one of the most important songs in the Cohen song catalogue."

She said that they are exploring legal options but also got in a dig at the campaign. -- "Had the RNC requested another song, 'You Want it Darker,' for which Leonard won a posthumous Grammy in 2017, we might have considered approval of that song," Rice said.

​

 

[Daniel Lion]

From THIS ARTICLE in the Atlantic online magazine. Speaking (quite eloquently) is the mother of the Jacob Blake, the Kenosha, Wisconsin man who was shot in the back that touched of the latest round of protests, demonstrations, and violence. It appears her last words may have been directed at Trump, but who's to say.

She says that her son would not be happy with the damage to his community. "As I have prayed for my son's healing, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, I also have been praying, even before this, for the healing of our country," Jackson says, and she goes on: "We are the United States. Have we been united? Do you understand what's going to happen when we fall? Because a house that is against each other cannot stand.

To all of the police officers, I'm praying for you and your families. To all of the citizens, my Black and brown sisters and brothers, I'm praying for you. I believe that you are an intelligent being just like the rest of us. Everybody, let's use our hearts, our love, and our intelligence to work together to show the rest of the world how humans are supposed to treat each other. America is great when we behave greatly."​

Hi Lane, hope you are keeping well.

What amazing words of healing this humble woman spoke after her son was shot 7 times in the back. Our president has consistently done the opposite, sadly for me.

Let's just presume for a second that Trump wins.

What does the next four years hold in store?

Who knows? Doesn't look good for the US regardless of who gets in, the country is so polarized and distrustful.

I am hoping @FGG runs in 2024 with @Lane and @Zugzug.

 

[FGG]

If we defund the police, do away with anti-crime programs, etc., and expect the unarmed community to do their job, instead, this is a recipe for disaster, as we have seen in NYC and elsewhere, as crime spikes and people are killed. In many communities, there will be vigilantes, militias, and mentally ill, violent people, taking their place. The solution, as I have pointed out more times than I care to remember, is to fire the bad cops, before their behavior escalates into a major incident. Unfortunately, politicians from every side, other than perhaps the extremely rare ones with ethics, are in favor of cop unions, which protect bad cops, and the politicians show no sign of changing that view, due to huge campaign contributions they receive from the cop unions, and other reasons such as support from the other unions that side with the cop unions. Many politicians are paid by the police unions to lobby for the very things that are causing all the unrest, and this group includes those from the right, left and middle.
Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar, a Democrat, is a perfect example. https://www.businessinsider.com/amy...ce-union-pacs-vice-president-contender-2020-6

I support the good cops 100%, bad cops and the cop unions 0%. These unions should be done away with, other than perhaps being pared down for the purpose of negotiations of salaries and benefits. If something is not done, along these lines, we will never see an end to the violence from bad cops, which will include the heartbreak, resulting unrest and, often, further violence, in reaction to their misdeeds.

I think addressing unions is a solution but a less political one that would be just as effective is giving them a license to be accountable for and an independent licensing board to be accountable to. Losing your license means you can no longer practice as a cop.

 

[Luman]

I think addressing unions is a solution but a less political one that would be just as effective is giving them a license to be accountable for and an independent licensing board to be accountable to. Losing your license means you can no longer practice as a cop.

Good idea but the unions will never do it because the purpose of the union is to keep the cops from being held accountable.

Hate to be a pessimist, but this situation with cop unions is not going to change, at least not in our lifetimes.

 

[FGG]

Good idea but the unions will never do it because the purpose of the union is to keep the cops from being held accountable.

Hate to be a pessimist, but this situation with cop unions is not going to change, at least not in our lifetimes.

This might be a naive question but what exactly do the unions get out of deflecting accountability?

 

[Luman]

This might be a naive question but what exactly do the unions get out if deflecting accountability?

They are paid to do this, by their members' union dues. It's probably the main reason why cop unions exist, as membership in a cop union, is insurance against the possibilities of accountability, for their actions while working.

 

[FGG]

They are paid to do this, by their members' union dues. It's probably the main reason why cop unions exist, as membership in a cop union, is insurance against the possibilities of accountability, for their actions while working.

But if more cops are good cops, why won't those cops demand better? Wouldn't that make a safer work environment for them? I'm confused a little by the power dynamic here. Or are the good cops actually the outnumbered ones?

I think first and foremost there needs to be some sort of reporting system that does not simply go up the chain of command.

 

[Luman]

But if more cops are good cops, why won't those cops demand better? Wouldn't that make a safer work environment for them? I'm confused a little by the power dynamic here. Or are the good cops actually the outnumbered ones?

I think first and foremost there needs to be some sort of reporting system that does not simply go up the chain of command.

The cops do not differentiate between "good" cops and "bad" cops. In their unionized minds, they are all equal, and practice the Blue Wall of Silence, which is a code that all cops follow, when one of them gets themselves into trouble, for any reason. If a cop reports another cop, his life is in danger while he is working, and while he is not. Remember, they stick together, it can be a very dangerous job, and accidents can happen at anytime. There will never be a reporting system, accepted and utilized by the police. Any cop who "rats" on a fellow officer, is finished.

 

[FGG]

The cops do not differentiate between "good" cops and "bad" cops. In their unionized minds, they are all equal, and practice the Blue Wall of Silence, which is a code that all cops follow, when one of them gets themselves into trouble, for any reason. If a cop reports another cop, his life is in danger while he is working, and while he is not. Remember, they stick together, it can be a very dangerous job, and accidents can happen at anytime. There will never be a reporting system, accepted and utilized by the police. Any cop who "rats" on a fellow officer, is finished.

I fully agree which is why licensing would be so helpful because it allows for anonymous reporting of colleagues.

I guess the "good cops" are enablers in this sense (understandably given the culture), which is really the whole problem and why people are protesting.

It really might come down to reducing the power of police unions but, as you pointed out, neither side wants to do that. Because it seems that the unions have enough power to oppose *any* measure (including presumably requiring insurance) or solution.

In that sense, I guess the only thing the protests can accomplish (at least in the near term) is justice in the cases that have gone viral. And that's pretty depressing.