So, the point is no matter what you say, you are racist no matter what. Blacks are immune to any criticism at all so have license to do anything. Whites are racist jerks unless they are leftist followers and subscribe to any leftist agendas - you must be obedient or you are part of the problem. Enjoy your civil war, Dave. That goes for all of you as well. Have fun.
2020 US Presidential Election
- Thread starter Born To Slay
- Start date
Saying that Black people are naturally uncivilized and Savages would be racist.
Saying that they are a product of their environment and that the world is an unfair place would not be.
Sorry you feel that way. I hope you have a nice day.
Saying that they are a product of their environment and that the world is an unfair place would not be.
Sorry you feel that way. I hope you have a nice day.
https://thepostmillennial.com/blm-rioters-tear-down-dinosaur-statue
Those evil racist dinosaurs. How is that a protest about justice? Peaceful BLM protesters, right?
Those evil racist dinosaurs. How is that a protest about justice? Peaceful BLM protesters, right?
Just one example of MSM LIES:
https://thepostmillennial.com/cnn-p...-reporter-broadcasts-before-flames-of-kenosha
The agenda is to support violence and looting from Blacks, Antifa, far left radicals and demonize whites while intimidating whites to either join/support the far left or be vilified as racist/white supremacist.
Police are increasingly being removed from the scene and any "incident" immediately hyped and marketed as "yet another attack on blacks" and it's Trump's fault of course. There is only one narrative, one side, theirs.
Any other is the "white racist" side and anything other than the far left is "the problem." They want civil war and they will probably get it.
https://thepostmillennial.com/cnn-p...-reporter-broadcasts-before-flames-of-kenosha
The agenda is to support violence and looting from Blacks, Antifa, far left radicals and demonize whites while intimidating whites to either join/support the far left or be vilified as racist/white supremacist.
Police are increasingly being removed from the scene and any "incident" immediately hyped and marketed as "yet another attack on blacks" and it's Trump's fault of course. There is only one narrative, one side, theirs.
Any other is the "white racist" side and anything other than the far left is "the problem." They want civil war and they will probably get it.
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More senseless rioting and looting in Minneapolis. What are these people thinking? They should have to pay for the property damage.
You can't "reform" a psychotic, or otherwise very violent cop, it can't be done, and the top tier lawyers that the unions employ, and the labor contracts that are written, will not allow them to be fired, usually until they kill somebody.
There are numerous opinions from very well respected media sources, both conservative, and liberal, who have said basically the same thing - unions and police are a very bad combination, and are the reason we have problems with police brutality, up to and including murders.
From the left wing, Mother Jones, to the WSJ and NYT, the media is very aware that the cop unions are a huge problem. Why are there no demonstrations to end police unions? I believe that it is mainly due to political figures, mostly Democrats but not exclusively, who are on the receiving end of contributions from the police unions, to lobby and represent their interests and, as I have said before, other non-cop unions that are in bed with the police unions, as well, as their union brothers and sisters.
Unfortunately, very few people will take the time to hash this out, for themselves, and understand the situation.
Until these issues are addressed by BLM, they are wasting their time, and making things worse by demanding defunding, which causes crime to increase, especially in the inner cities.
Here are a few, of many available, articles regarding the problem with police unions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapolis-kroll.html
https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-borough...n-backs-nypd-investigation-into-police-unions
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/08/police-unions-minneapolis/
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...-george-floyd-protest-black-lives-matter.html
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-problem-with-police-unions-11591830984
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@WillBeNimble -- @DaveN -- and others who've mentioned police unions. I ran across a rather remarkable piece a little while ago, and thought it was worth sharing.
A Note on Police Reform
A couple weeks ago I got a long, thoughtful email from a law man explaining that when we talk about "police reform" we're reducing to shorthand a subject that is incredibly complicated. I want to share his thoughts with you, but he asked me to keep his name out of it, so we'll just call him Jonah Hex:
-
"I am a peace officer who was in uniformed patrol for the last twelve years before transitioning to a weird, specialty law enforcement job (at a great time, too!) that has given me time to reflect upon patrol work. It's like waking up slowly from a strange dream.
There is a widespread assumption that police administrators would fire incompetent officers if not for the powerful police unions. This is . . . an incomplete picture at best. It's almost impossible to generalize about policing in America. In California, where I work, police officers make a good middle-class income. I have a friend who worked for New Orleans PD who told me they started at $17/hr, and he knew cops who were single moms who were on food stamps. In the same way, police unions have a wide range of sway over police administrators in different parts of the country.
There are incentives for police administrators to retain incompetent officers that have nothing to do with unions. A police department is a hungry beast that needs to be fed cops regularly. When economic times are good, no one wants to be a police officer. There is better money to be made without the lifestyle downsides that come with police work. Inevitably, departments start to drop well below their "minimum" staffing. In my area, many departments are 25-30% below minimum. I know of one big-city division that used to staff 9 officers on patrol. The minimum staffing was revised down to 6 due to the general lack of cops. When people are sick or on vacation, they will go as low as 4. Needless to say, their response time isn't stellar.
I saw this dynamic play out during my career. When I was hired, shortly before the mortgage meltdown, people thought I was crazy to go into policing. I was able to land a job with my preferred agency, but I would have been able to get a position elsewhere. My agency paid my way through the academy and supplied all of my equipment. While there weren't as many candidates due to the good economy, my agency was still able to be choosy as it was nearly fully staffed.
Once the Great Recession hit, there was a sudden interest in policing. My agency had its pick of candidates who had put themselves through the academy. The overall quality of candidates improved. When the rare lemon was hired, I witnessed unsuitable trainees getting fired during training for poor performance.
The latest economic boom coincided with a shortage of officers due to a previous hiring freeze. The quality and depth of the applicant pool was greatly diminished, and we were in the midst of a large wave of retirements.
By this point, I was a training officer. I saw my recommendations to remove unsuitable trainees for performance that had been unacceptable to that point ignored. The attitude of the command was that—barring any illegal behavior—trainees could be "fixed" later. This proved overly optimistic. It is very difficult to fix poor character or decision making.
I understand the administration's quandary. They need cops. It takes about 9 months from the time of a retirement until a trainee is in the academy. Our academy is 6 months. My agency had an extra-long, nearly 6 month field-training phase. So after almost 2 years, to be told the appropriately $100,000 spent on hiring and training this person-who you hand picked was all for naught? That is a bitter pill to swallow. The sunk-cost fallacy is overwhelming at that point."
A couple weeks ago I got a long, thoughtful email from a law man explaining that when we talk about "police reform" we're reducing to shorthand a subject that is incredibly complicated. I want to share his thoughts with you, but he asked me to keep his name out of it, so we'll just call him Jonah Hex:
-
"I am a peace officer who was in uniformed patrol for the last twelve years before transitioning to a weird, specialty law enforcement job (at a great time, too!) that has given me time to reflect upon patrol work. It's like waking up slowly from a strange dream.
There is a widespread assumption that police administrators would fire incompetent officers if not for the powerful police unions. This is . . . an incomplete picture at best. It's almost impossible to generalize about policing in America. In California, where I work, police officers make a good middle-class income. I have a friend who worked for New Orleans PD who told me they started at $17/hr, and he knew cops who were single moms who were on food stamps. In the same way, police unions have a wide range of sway over police administrators in different parts of the country.
There are incentives for police administrators to retain incompetent officers that have nothing to do with unions. A police department is a hungry beast that needs to be fed cops regularly. When economic times are good, no one wants to be a police officer. There is better money to be made without the lifestyle downsides that come with police work. Inevitably, departments start to drop well below their "minimum" staffing. In my area, many departments are 25-30% below minimum. I know of one big-city division that used to staff 9 officers on patrol. The minimum staffing was revised down to 6 due to the general lack of cops. When people are sick or on vacation, they will go as low as 4. Needless to say, their response time isn't stellar.
I saw this dynamic play out during my career. When I was hired, shortly before the mortgage meltdown, people thought I was crazy to go into policing. I was able to land a job with my preferred agency, but I would have been able to get a position elsewhere. My agency paid my way through the academy and supplied all of my equipment. While there weren't as many candidates due to the good economy, my agency was still able to be choosy as it was nearly fully staffed.
Once the Great Recession hit, there was a sudden interest in policing. My agency had its pick of candidates who had put themselves through the academy. The overall quality of candidates improved. When the rare lemon was hired, I witnessed unsuitable trainees getting fired during training for poor performance.
The latest economic boom coincided with a shortage of officers due to a previous hiring freeze. The quality and depth of the applicant pool was greatly diminished, and we were in the midst of a large wave of retirements.
By this point, I was a training officer. I saw my recommendations to remove unsuitable trainees for performance that had been unacceptable to that point ignored. The attitude of the command was that—barring any illegal behavior—trainees could be "fixed" later. This proved overly optimistic. It is very difficult to fix poor character or decision making.
I understand the administration's quandary. They need cops. It takes about 9 months from the time of a retirement until a trainee is in the academy. Our academy is 6 months. My agency had an extra-long, nearly 6 month field-training phase. So after almost 2 years, to be told the appropriately $100,000 spent on hiring and training this person-who you hand picked was all for naught? That is a bitter pill to swallow. The sunk-cost fallacy is overwhelming at that point."
I would say you shouldn't seek to reform a violent cop, but at the same time our system encourages cops to be violent with David Grossman's "Sheep Dog" mentality. Also, yes, the union would make it harder to fire them and as well as make it so they have more agreeable labor contracts. That's why I agreed getting rid of them would help.
I don't really have the time to peruse all those articles, unfortunately. As for why there's no action against them we've seen how they've acted when we've talked about decreasing their budgets so they can't be as militarized as they currently are, right? They've thrown a fit, refused to patrol areas because they don't feel "respected", escalated situations that didn't need escalated, and acted out. Imagine the hell they raised if we just tried to to get rid of their unions.
As for defunding increasing crime, we really wouldn't know because we've never really done it. The point to defunding is to allocate those resources to other services that can deal with the issues the community faces as well, like getting more social workers, while also decreasing the militarization of the police.
Some articles are citing that in areas where defunding has occured, there's been an increase in crime, but these are already tumultuous times. These aren't the same conditions and variables as past years, and to directly compare the two is statistical slight of hand. Further, the areas that would try to defund would generally be the places where protests happened, so there would be an increase in crime, because the social cohesion is already upset. It's really hard to tell for certain what the outcome would be, so it tends to be a gut feeling of how we think it would affect the situation, and that determines our response to it.
Personally, I think the police as they exist now is the kind of standing army the forefathers feared taking root, especially with local government expecting them to earn profits essentially to make up the inability to raise taxes. They're largely decoupled from the community, and are trained to treat everything like a life endangering threat. If we adjusted what the aim of our police forces actually we're for, trained them to deescalate and do community outreach, I think it would help.
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The following gives some pretty good insight into how Trump and Trumpism often fosters the kind of violence that occurred in Kenosha. Kyle Rittenhouse (age 17) apparently made his way to two different Trump rallies, and was seated in the front row. 17-year-olds and many others eat up the nonsense that Trump spews from the stage, and it leads to real life consequences.
And here is Kyle Rittenhouse on the night he killed two protesters. The NYT provides this moment by moment tracking of what happened that night.
It came a day after the RNC featured this couple from St. Louis, who had also brandished weapons at protesters.
It came a day after the RNC featured this couple from St. Louis, who had also brandished weapons at protesters.
That all raises good points, and I sincerely thank you for passing that along, it was a good read. But it does not combat the fact that unions are (at least partially) what prevent officers who commit crimes while in the line of duty from being punished or let go from the job. Between this and qualified immunity, if these two items aren't at the table when discussing serious options on how to fix this problem, then the problem will not be fixed.
Either start paying for all these wrongful death settlements that are costing the taxpayers who knows how much from the pension fund, or make it so officers who commit crimes can be sued for them.
I dont see this problem going away until one of these two options has serious consideration behind it.
Either start paying for all these wrongful death settlements that are costing the taxpayers who knows how much from the pension fund, or make it so officers who commit crimes can be sued for them.
I dont see this problem going away until one of these two options has serious consideration behind it.
I wonder if part of this could be solved by making them carry malpractice insurance. Departments would be hesitant to pay for the expensive policies of the bad actors.
Not only that but on social media the shooter is being hailed as a right wing hero.
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I think it's interesting too how Kyle Rittenhouse is basically a domestic terrorist, but no one in the press seems to be calling him that. But we all know if he wasn't white he probably would be treated verrryyy differently.
Huh? The media is treating him that way.
I guess you haven't looked at the victims' profiles and backgrounds, right. Their criminal histories are a mile long. He was attacked by three people.
Protesters are inflicting violence and in our bizzaro world now, people of all walks of life are walking around with guns. Property is being damaged and destroyed which shows these protests are just about seeing how far one can go. Bravo on your research.
I am being good.
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This coincides with my uneducated opinions on the subject. To me, the logic goes:
- Being a cop requires top-notch genetics (stress management, which is largely genetic) and training
- Higher standards will lead to lower supply. Boost the supply by having better pay, better benefits, better training programs. The media has to do better and highlight the important work of police officers. While horrific brutality occurs, there are many times where police officers protect.
- Stop smearing all individuals for the actions of a few. Trust is important, and this trust will never be gained when viral videos override statistics that don't show up in viral videos.
- Discourage vigilantes and "good guy with the gun" mindset. In exchange, cops will be respected. There will be an understanding that sometimes bad things happen under difficult scenarios without malicious intent. Give the good cops plenty of room to work so that we don't need to call in federal forces.
- After we have a healthy supply of respected cops, the public needs to have discussions about not resisting arrest. Share the statistics and be proud of them so that people learn to trust cops again. As it currently stands, I understand why people of color often react out of fear. This fear needs to go away, and it doesn't go away by reducing the pool of good cops.
Also, I want to add that Donald Trump is the single worst human being to be talking about this issue. He is an actual white-privileged racist who rubs it in every day. Elect leaders capable of nuanced discussion and healing divides. There are real, raw reasons why people don't trust cops. The goal is to acknowledge this without burning everything down.
OK, let them keep their unions and iron-clad contracts that make it impossible to fire bad cops.
I've shown a good half dozen well written, and well researched articles from the left, center and right, which call for ending or severely limiting the power of police unions, but nobody seems to listen, so good luck the next time a kid or adult is unjustly killed by a bad cop, with numerous previous complaints of violence against him, that were never properly addressed due to the unions.
The regular non-cop unions, refuse to budge and kick the cop unions out of the umbrella organizations like AFL-CIO, while professional politicians like Shumer and Pelosi cry crocodile tears and do the knee thing - but they know the score, and are terrified of losing union support, if they tell the truth outright. Trump isn't far behind as the NYC Police Officer's Benevolent Society recently supported his reelection, which he graciously accepted.
In NY, Gov. Cuomo has admitted that his hands are tied, in the case of the Buffalo assault by cops against a man in his 70's at a demonstration, due to the contract. The far-left mayor of NYC, Bill de Blasio, has also admitted that the cop unions are a problem. But it's going to take more than an occasional remark, to fix this.
I've shown a good half dozen well written, and well researched articles from the left, center and right, which call for ending or severely limiting the power of police unions, but nobody seems to listen, so good luck the next time a kid or adult is unjustly killed by a bad cop, with numerous previous complaints of violence against him, that were never properly addressed due to the unions.
The regular non-cop unions, refuse to budge and kick the cop unions out of the umbrella organizations like AFL-CIO, while professional politicians like Shumer and Pelosi cry crocodile tears and do the knee thing - but they know the score, and are terrified of losing union support, if they tell the truth outright. Trump isn't far behind as the NYC Police Officer's Benevolent Society recently supported his reelection, which he graciously accepted.
In NY, Gov. Cuomo has admitted that his hands are tied, in the case of the Buffalo assault by cops against a man in his 70's at a demonstration, due to the contract. The far-left mayor of NYC, Bill de Blasio, has also admitted that the cop unions are a problem. But it's going to take more than an occasional remark, to fix this.
I mean, I agreed with you that severely limiting or getting rid of Police unions would help. I just also stated that we don't really have data on reallocating funding either. DaveN agreed too.
As for police unions and politics, here's a good overview:
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...ws-where-police-money-has-flowed-in-congress/
Yeah, they seem to donate more to democrats, but it's not so much money that the democrats wouldn't do anything against them. What stops dems and repubes from doing anything against them is the fit everyone throws the moment you want to do anything to the police or their unions. That and the fear of being branded as against "Law and Order".
Zugzug and Lucifer labeled your post as informative, so I can't help but think they agree. The tone of this post is bewildering to me. It seems to just throw the blame at the democrats and unions in general.
Good article, never can have too much information. I have less and less respect for politicians, of both sides, the more I learn.
If the public is too stupid to differentiate between correct ways of bringing about law and order, than relying on corrupt, hypocritical unions and their amoral political allies, which leads to death, heartbreak, destruction and more, then perhaps we are living with the police departments and politicians we deserve. We have reached that point, with a large uptick of killings and other crime, in NYC thanks to Mayor de Blasio, the NYPD Police Benevolent Association, and other unions and politicians.
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This thread is loaded with people clicking informative on things they don't fully agree with. I just want to learn, as I don't consider myself an expert in this area.
I'm not even close to being an expert, but I've seen enough in NYC, and read enough about police unions in general, to realize what is going on - and I've had this opinion for years, not just since the spring and summer of 2020.
It can't be so difficult to just control or restrict the access to weapons:
Teen charged in killings of BLM protesters considered himself a militia member
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/26/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-murders-blm-protest-militia
Teen charged in killings of BLM protesters considered himself a militia member
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/26/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-murders-blm-protest-militia
I believe children are allowed to own guns in most states? I guess it's very hard to restrict access to guns in America because the right to use them is enshrined in the Constitution. Also, it's probably quite a circular thing now: everyone has them, so everyone needs them to protect from everyone who has them.
I dont disagree and even in an earlier post (i think at least) I mentioned one of the biggest things they have to do is a better job at screen/recruiting.
I disagree with smearing. How about the smearing of innocent black lives by the police and media after they are wrongfully killed? The head of the NYPD Police Union said it was the worst day of the departments history when the cop that placed Eric Garner in an illegal choke hold and killed him was fired from the dept. Sorry but if the bosses of the cops are saying bs like that, then I dont see people just getting on their knees and licking boots. At this point, it is a crisis that needs solving. Tamir Rice was 12 and playing with a toy, it took hours for the media to be all over it with 'where are his parents' 'he had it coming it was a toy gun'...there are more example than can be counted. You know why bad cops get smeared? There are so goddamned many instances of cops being violent and unnecessarily aggressive and the good cops just doing nothing and watching. Cops absolutely will not be respected until they stop acting like the own the streets and should have their asses kissed by every one they see. If as many roofers killed as many innocent people as cops, we wouldnt be saying 'pay roofers more' or 'they just need better training' or 'not all roofers'v we would do our best to actually solve the problem. It is a job that as you stated more is expected of a person, so when a mistake is made that costs someone their life, the public should absolutely know about it. Especially since in many of these instances, that officer has a violent history within the dept that went unpunished.
IMO payment is not in issues with most Police Departments (well aware of the previous article posted). In fact due to unlimited/unchecked OT payment is insane. In Boston a study came out months ago that showed a huge number of officers who made more than the mayor of Boston last year. That's over $200,000 a year...The incentives are there. When we stop rewarding them and actually start punishing them is when problems will start getting solved.
Did you read the article i posted about hate groups and white supremacists infiltrating the nations police force as warned by the FBI? Article was published a few years ago and cited that it had been happening for years. If it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch, I have to wonder how many bad apples are out there after 10-15 years of getting their hooks into police depts.
Also just to be clear- I hope none of that sounded disrespectful to you as I think you have been doing a lot of of good in this thread and truly hope it doesnt come across that way---this is just an issue that gets to me quite a bit, in fact I have been trying to stay out of this thread at times bc sometimes i get carried away so apologies if anything.
just to follow up on the smearing..do you remember months ago when a cop complained someone took a bite of his burger and went to the news about it? Trying to smear fast food workers? He later admitted he took the bite and forgot, the dept was behind him and believed him.
Remember the cop that said someone at starbucks put a tampon in his coffee and filed a report? No wrong doing was found on the part of the employees.
Remember when a cop complained shake shack had poisoned his drink? It wasnt.
Or when that cop had pig written on his receipt and got the employee fired? He did it to himself
Its pretty symbolic of how so many police try to prove they can get away with whatever they want bc of their position.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/20...rs-lying-accuse-mcdonalds-shake-shack-workers
Remember the cop that said someone at starbucks put a tampon in his coffee and filed a report? No wrong doing was found on the part of the employees.
Remember when a cop complained shake shack had poisoned his drink? It wasnt.
Or when that cop had pig written on his receipt and got the employee fired? He did it to himself
Its pretty symbolic of how so many police try to prove they can get away with whatever they want bc of their position.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/20...rs-lying-accuse-mcdonalds-shake-shack-workers
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