2020 US Presidential Election

Respectfully, what's your stance on the Defund The Police movement?

Bad people do exist, true. But the majority of crime is caused mostly due societal inequality rather then malice.

Give people affordable housing, a decent education, and equality under the law, they'll have fewer reasons to join gangs in the first place.
I have a pretty malleable mindset on this topic. When it comes to non-violent, non-dangerous crimes, I probably completely agree with you. I support rehab, education, opportunity over throwing someone in jail.

I guess where I disagree with you, and probably where I am pro police, is regarding the cycle of gangs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a lot of people join gangs for protection against other rival gangs. I would rather the police be the protection so that the people who deep down don't really want to head in that direction, have a choice. This is probably a lot of people. Admittedly, maybe this could be achieved with a far smaller police budget.

How the cycle of gangs is stopped is not something I feel like I totally understand. But yes, if you break the cycle of gangs and other violent groups, I do support re-allocating that money towards more productive things than jailing people.
 
I like this idea, but I wonder what cops think of it. We need more good cops in order to weed out the bad ones. I'm not sure how we motivate more good people to become cops. I suppose the alternative is just less policing, but I don't totally agree with this.
It's a tough problem because while the job might appeal to some people who want to help their communities, it also appeals to people who are overly attached to the idea of power and authority.
 
I have a pretty malleable mindset on this topic. When it comes to non-violent, non-dangerous crimes, I probably completely agree with you. I support rehab, education, opportunity over throwing someone in jail.

I guess where I disagree with you, and probably where I am pro police, is regarding the cycle of gangs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a lot of people join gangs for protection against other rival gangs. I would rather the police be the protection so that the people who deep down don't really want to head in that direction, have a choice. This is probably a lot of people. Admittedly, maybe this could be achieved with a far smaller police budget.

How the cycle of gangs is stopped is not something I feel like I totally understand. But yes, if you break the cycle of gangs and other violent groups, I do support re-allocating that money towards more productive things than jailing people.
This is probably a radical idea to some but to put an absolute halt to gang violence, I think you need to legalize all drugs. Prohibition of any goods easily traded on the black market never works anyway, it just funds criminal enterprise.
 
This is probably a radical idea to some but to put an absolute halt to gang violence, I think you need to legalize all drugs. Prohibition of any goods easily traded on the black market never works anyway, it just funds criminal enterprise.
Yeah, I don't know. It may stop gang violence, but at the expense of a slew of other problems. Decriminalizing and offering rehab to people is smart, but again, to come back to my cynicism tendency, I don't think the average person can live in a world where drugs are legal.

I must say, it's always blown my mind how little alcohol abuse is taken seriously compared to marijuana. Alcohol is actually a pretty serious drug, especially binges. Yet the college culture is essentially to ingest heavy loads of this drug multiple times per week. I used to smoke and drink in college, and I would often smoke to combat some of the negative effects of alcohol. Yet I would have gotten kicked out of school for smoking. Really strange.

Anyways, legalize marijuana for sure. Cocaine, meth, opioids... probably not.
 
So is it safe here to say that I am voting for Trump because I just don't think Biden is a strong enough candidate to take on all of what's going on in my country?
 
Yeah, I don't know. It may stop gang violence, but at the expense of a slew of other problems. Decriminalizing and offering rehab to people is smart, but again, to come back to my cynicism tendency, I don't think the average person can live in a world where drugs are legal.

I must say, it's always blown my mind how little alcohol abuse is taken seriously compared to marijuana. Alcohol is actually a pretty serious drug, especially binges. Yet the college culture is essentially to ingest heavy loads of this drug multiple times per week. I used to smoke and drink in college, and I would often smoke to combat some of the negative effects of alcohol. Yet I would have gotten kicked out of school for smoking. Really strange.

Anyways, legalize marijuana for sure. Cocaine, meth, opioids... probably not.
Well, we live in a world where drugs are legal (sort of);) Soft drugs are legal, hard drugs (cocaine, LSD, heroine) are not (too risky in the way that people are more susceptible to addiction of hard drugs and because of the profound impact on health). We have a so called Tolerance Policy (Gedoogbeleid) that allows commercialisation of soft drugs under certain restrictions: only coffee shops are allowed to sell soft drugs, sell no more than 5 grams of soft drugs per person a day, selling soft drugs to under 18 years olds is not allowed, commercials for coffee shops are not allowed, etc. This policy is quite successful in that it significantly curtailed the power of gangs and criminal organisations.
 
So is it safe here to say that I am voting for Trump because I just don't think Biden is a strong enough candidate to take on all of what's going on in my country?
No, @Carlos1 you will be put on Santa's naughty list for daring to say such a thing ;) No, really, it's ok to say whatever you want.

But what makes you think that Trump is better suited to tackle problems in the US than Biden?

I also tend to think that Biden is cognitively not really up for the job (aka the gaffe machine, like introducing himself at a public meeting as ''Joe Biden's husband'' and ''truth matters more than facts''), but surely he would do a better job than someone who, in my view, played a part in aggravating current problems like handling COVID-19 and BLM?
 
So is it safe here to say that I am voting for Trump because I just don't think Biden is a strong enough candidate to take on all of what's going on in my country?
Of course it's safe. Regarding Biden's downfalls, the difference between Trump and Biden is an understanding of their own shortcomings. I am really voting for Biden's team and coalitions. I trust Biden to listen to the experts; he may give a crappy speech with loads of gaffes, but his fundamental goal isn't to divide the country.

For example, if Dr. Fauci advises Biden, he's not going to go on TV and brag about how he's so smart that he just has a feeling that Covid will miraculously go away.

Like him or not, a brilliant strategy that Biden's team is employing is being very slow and thoughtful about a VP pick. The underlying message they are sending is that this guy knows his limitations. The American public is more scared of Trump's narcissism than his stupidity -- although both are remarkable.
 
Yeah, I don't know. It may stop gang violence, but at the expense of a slew of other problems. Decriminalizing and offering rehab to people is smart, but again, to come back to my cynicism tendency, I don't think the average person can live in a world where drugs are legal.

I must say, it's always blown my mind how little alcohol abuse is taken seriously compared to marijuana. Alcohol is actually a pretty serious drug, especially binges. Yet the college culture is essentially to ingest heavy loads of this drug multiple times per week. I used to smoke and drink in college, and I would often smoke to combat some of the negative effects of alcohol. Yet I would have gotten kicked out of school for smoking. Really strange.

Anyways, legalize marijuana for sure. Cocaine, meth, opioids... probably not.
I definitely agree it would need to be done along with education and public health measures.

I read this statistic about alcohol consumption during prohibition:

"We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level."

Making drugs illegal does appear to have some effect but it seems modest to moderate.

You are right about cultural effects too. (Unhealthy) alcohol binging is definitely socially acceptable so it contributes to it being widespread. Compare that to parts of Utah where it is taboo to drink at all.

I think legalized drugs could decreases the social cache for even using them in the first place but I have no proof of this. Just my speculation.
 
I think legalized drugs could decreases the social cache for even using them in the first place but I have no proof of this. Just my speculation.
When my friends and I started smoking weed after high school, I honestly think a lot of it was to be cool or the thrill of being rebellious. Don't get me wrong; I ended up liking the actual drug, particularly as a means of relaxing, but I doubt I ever would have started taking it if it was presented to me as dispassionately as another drug like Ibuprofen. It's, frankly, very very stupid that smoking pot makes one cool, while taking an SSRI is simply responsible.

Particularly for other drugs, I don't totally buy the whole 'they're going to take them anyways' cliche. To the average person, getting involved with a drug dealer is actually nontrivial.
 
@Christiaan

I think there's a distinction between BLM and the Rioting. BLM is a rightful peaceful protest and these rioters are using the protest to cause anarchy on our streets. These Rioters are funded and organized to create chaos.

Biden has a terrible track record of bad decisions over his 48 years as a politician.
I consider myself as an independent and for me this years vote is shaping up just like 2016 there is no good choice but I have to make one. I want to get back to law and order in this country I have had family hurt by rioters and politicians are not doing anything to keep our citizens safe.

Life with Tinnitus is bad enough now throw in the stress of looting and rioting in our cities and its just too much to bare. I want peace in this country.

Anyways thanks for listening stay strong keep the faith that we'll find a TEE cure sooner than later.
 
So is it safe here to say that I am voting for Trump because I just don't think Biden is a strong enough candidate to take on all of what's going on in my country?
It's safe to express any political opinion in this thread.

That said, I'm curious to hear why do you think Joe Biden would do a worse job than Trump is now.
 
@Christiaan

I want to get back to law and order in this country I have had family hurt by rioters and politicians are not doing anything to keep our citizens safe.

Interesting point. I think reuniting the country should be the biggest consideration for this election also. It seems to be so divided since Trump was elected.

The problem is that the rioting is happening during Trump's presidency -- he's been unable to stop it thus far, and in fact has probably massively exacerbated it. So I don't have much hope that voting him in for another four years is going to calm the situation down. It will probably make it a lot worse.

I wonder if a more progressive, thoughtful candidate would be better to bring the country back together again.

I confess to not know much about Biden, but could he really do more damage than Trump?
 
@Born To Slay

1. He advocates for cuts to Social Security.
2. He was for NAFTA and WTO which hurt American workers.
3. Voted multiple times for USA to continue the war on the middle east.
4. Biden has a long history of making terrible deals (Good for him) with China but terrible for Americans.
5. Biden sold out Americans for credit card companies.

I could go on but I won't... Trump has a shady history as well but you asked me about Biden.
Again there is no good candidate.
 
I want to get back to law and order in this country I have had family hurt by rioters and politicians are not doing anything to keep our citizens safe.

Life with Tinnitus is bad enough now throw in the stress of looting and rioting in our cities and its just too much to bare. I want peace in this country.
I appreciate your opinion. I ask this respectfully. Do you see Trump representing law and order? He is clearly a criminal himself, and everyone he knows is a criminal (whether or not you think Russia-gate was important, Trump did have a slew of associates commit crimes). I can't even fathom how many shady/immoral/illegal things he's done over the years to get where he is.

Regarding the rioting, I think you have every right to be concerned about it. Honestly, I don't think the left takes it seriously enough. But how much of the civil unrest do you think is a result of having Trump rub everyone's face in dog shit every day? Is it fair to say at least some? I get that Trump can't be blamed for everything, but things have clearly gotten more divisive under Trump.

I do agree that the left needs to be more honest about law and order. A police officer has a difficult job, and I'm not going to dissect every heat of the moment decision they have to make. I disagree with the left narrative that police officers are overwhelmingly running around looking to kill.

I should add, what policies make Biden less about law and order than Trump? I thought he was criticized for being too big on law and order.
 
@Christiaan

I think there's a distinction between BLM and the Rioting. BLM is a rightful peaceful protest and these rioters are using the protest to cause anarchy on our streets. These Rioters are funded and organized to create chaos.

Biden has a terrible track record of bad decisions over his 48 years as a politician.
I consider myself as an independent and for me this years vote is shaping up just like 2016 there is no good choice but I have to make one. I want to get back to law and order in this country I have had family hurt by rioters and politicians are not doing anything to keep our citizens safe.

Life with Tinnitus is bad enough now throw in the stress of looting and rioting in our cities and its just too much to bare. I want peace in this country.

Anyways thanks for listening stay strong keep the faith that we'll find a TEE cure sooner than later.
Ok. I agree that there are some really bad apples who want to benefit from the BLM situation. I really feel for those shop owners who got looted and people who feel unsafe because of certain chaotic situations. These people should be held accountable by the court of law. But is there any proof that the rioters are funded?

I think it is troubling that Trump equates all BLM activists to ''terrorists''. Most of them feel that the ''system'' (broad term, but we can safely say it concerns lots of themes, like education, judicial system, voting system, justice, etc. ) does not work for the people of color. And in my opinion they have the right to voice their opinion, as Americans live in a democracy. If Trump does not want to hold a debate to let them be heard and voice their concerns in hopes of systemic chance, but instead use brutal force (as we have seen in Portland), Trump's Law & Order strategy will only allow civil unrest to continue.
 
@Born To Slay

1. He advocates for cuts to Social Security.
2. He was for NAFTA and WTO which hurt American workers.
3. Voted multiple times for USA to continue the war on the middle east.
4. Biden has a long history of making terrible deals (Good for him) with China but terrible for Americans.
5. Biden sold out Americans for credit card companies.

I could go on but I won't... Trump has a shady history as well but you asked me about Biden.
Again there is no good candidate.
As a progressive I agree with you on all these points, Biden was not my first choice for a nominee (in fact, he was dead last for me except Bloomberg).

But you said you were voting for Trump who's not really progressive on any of these issues. Hell I'd argue he's worse on all of them.
 
@Christiaan

I don't want to get into it but the funding issue has been pointed out in this thread and I'll leave it at that.

Trust me, if you walked in my shoes right now, scared every time your family goes out the door that they may not come back, it's an awful way to live. I blame both parties. The one thing Reps and Dems should agree on is public safety and to listen to them point fingers at each other while kids are getting killed in our streets is horrible.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to bring peace to my streets right now, not in November.
By November's election if there's no peace there wil be countless more innocent lives killed.
I have seen my share of death and I want it to end now.

Stay Strong in your TEE battle.
 
Yeah, I don't know. It may stop gang violence, but at the expense of a slew of other problems. Decriminalizing and offering rehab to people is smart, but again, to come back to my cynicism tendency, I don't think the average person can live in a world where drugs are legal.

I must say, it's always blown my mind how little alcohol abuse is taken seriously compared to marijuana. Alcohol is actually a pretty serious drug, especially binges. Yet the college culture is essentially to ingest heavy loads of this drug multiple times per week. I used to smoke and drink in college, and I would often smoke to combat some of the negative effects of alcohol. Yet I would have gotten kicked out of school for smoking. Really strange.

Anyways, legalize marijuana for sure. Cocaine, meth, opioids... probably not.
So what is the benefit of the drugs staying illegal? Do these laws actually stop anyone? I have a hard time thinking there's people out there who would be doing cocaine but the only thing stopping them is the law.
 
Do these laws actually stop anyone? I have a hard time thinking there's people out there who would be doing cocaine but the only thing stopping them is the law.
You are probably right that if someone has a burning passion for trying cocaine, they will find a way to do it anyways. However, a lot of drug use is from someone more shady obtaining the drug and then peer pressuring someone else to try it with them. Keeping it illegal probably reduces the peer pressure cases -- that's my guess.

I also have a theory that a lot of people resort to illegal drugs because of untreated mental health problems. Legalizing them encourages less responsible health care treatments to self medicate.
 
You are probably right that if someone has a burning passion for trying cocaine, they will find a way to do it anyways. However, a lot of drug use is from someone more shady obtaining the drug and then peer pressuring someone else to try it with them. Keeping it illegal probably reduces the peer pressure cases -- that's my guess.
But don't you think a big part of the peer pressure comes from people selling illegal drugs pushing it on others who then ultimately push it on their friends?

To use my own experience as an example, I tried cocaine once a long time ago. I smoked pot in college (and tried acid twice).

No way in hell would I ever have tried heroine or meth. The legal or illegal status of the drugs didn't influence any of these choices. It was knowing the risks involved.

With education, and without motivated pushers, I really see the rate going down, not up. Sure, that wouldn't be true for every individual but look at cigarettes. They didn't have to make them illegal to see an overall decline, even if some people still pick up smoking.
 
So what is the benefit of the drugs staying illegal? Do these laws actually stop anyone? I have a hard time thinking there's people out there who would be doing cocaine but the only thing stopping them is the law.
The war on drugs has been an astounding failure and I think legalisation or at least decriminalisation is the way forward. Portugal has seen success with decriminalising drugs. Prohibition never works. The real issue I see is a lack of education about drugs and their illegality of course means there is no regulation or anything.
 
Just to add: I don't think legalisation is a panacea, sure, and there will still be problems but I think the war on drugs is just fundamentally unworkable. That phrase about insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results springs to mind...
 
Just to add: I don't think legalisation is a panacea, sure, and there will still be problems but I think the war on drugs is just fundamentally unworkable. That phrase about insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results springs to mind...
It's just wack-a-mole with arrests. All it does us fill up prisons with drug users and make cartel leaders rich. Not to mention, increases illegal immigration from people (understandably) trying to escape their reign in places like Mexico.
 
Has anyone noticed that some Europeans in socialist countries cannot even understand the concept of free market libertarianism? I am not a libertarian, but I find it odd knowing they cannot even conceptualize this kind of economic framework. In the US, mistrust of Government is historical. In these socialist countries it's seen as rude and disrespectful. Libertarians are right about some leftist having cult-like mindsets with naive trust in authority.


Anti Government is a social norm in the US, but in other countries it's viewed as evil. Why?
 
Has anyone noticed that some Europeans in socialist countries cannot even understand the concept of free market libertarianism? I am not a libertarian, but I find it odd knowing they cannot even conceptualize this kind of economic framework. In the US, mistrust of Government is historical. In these socialist countries it's seen as rude and disrespectful. Libertarians are right about some leftist having cult-like mindsets with naive trust in authority.

Anti Government is a social norm in the US, but in other countries it's viewed as evil. Why?
What country or countries are you referring to?
 
Has anyone noticed that some Europeans in socialist countries cannot even understand the concept of free market libertarianism? I am not a libertarian, but I find it odd knowing they cannot even conceptualize this kind of economic framework. In the US, mistrust of Government is historical. In these socialist countries it's seen as rude and disrespectful. Libertarians are right about some leftist having cult-like mindsets with naive trust in authority.


Anti Government is a social norm in the US, but in other countries it's viewed as evil. Why?
Which European socialist countries do you have in mind @Contrast?

I cannot think of a country that is outspokenly 99% socialist in a cultural sense (socialist ideology that is deeply ingrained in all sorts of life), except for some outliers like Transnistria (run by people who still want to live in the Soviet era) and arguably Moldova.

But if we consider the importance of libertarianism in Western European countries like the Netherlands, I guess I can say some things about it from my local perspective.

Libertarianism has never been a force to be reckoned with in the Netherlands. That doesn't mean that most people here do not know what libertarianism is. For people who are politically engaged locally, they also get info about libertarianism (at least, that's my experience). Some are even aware that it is a complex ideology that consists of different strides (night-watchman state vs. anarcho-capitalism, for example). There is even a libertarian party that tries to win seats at every national election that has been held so far, but it has never won one. But why does the party never gained a foothold in parliament?

I think it has to do with people's trust in government, as you have said. On the other hand, it has also to do with the people who represent the libertarian party. In the first case, Unlike most libertarians, most people here are very sceptical about the concept of self-regulation at an individual level, as we have seen from history that companies seldom played a role in the forefront in improving working conditions, to name an example. We have learned at school that from a historical perspective government is the foremost agency to rely on to improve something collectively. If you need to get things done, you need to get into politics and achieve the ideals that you hold dear, or vote for someone who upholds those values. If we look at considerable changes in positive terms for people in the late 19th and first part of the 20th century, even liberal parties (were more social liberal att) were supportive of improving living conditions for people, like implementing a law against allowing children in the workforce in factories under the age of 12.

If we look at the libertarian party, we see some people who have quite serious beliefs, but are involved in things that most people consider abhorrent. Most Dutch people know that paying taxes is necessary to maintain the benefits of the welfare system and making things like health care affordable. As we know, not all libertarians are fond of paying taxes. For example, a former leader of the Dutch libertarian party was recently involved in embezzling money & bankruptcy fraud during his term as director of a tax avoider organisation, and he has also made deals with Mossack Fonseca on behalf of his organisation (transfer money to Panama without paying taxes). That kind of behaviour does not score political points in my country.

I do not know a lot of left wing people who have a lot of trust in authority, but I'm sure there are some people who hold that belief. I am member of the Dutch Socialist party and this party is heavily involved in extra-parliamentary actions against decisions of the government. Sometimes there are groups within the party that organise protests against decisions of the party. One example I can think of is the fuzz around the decision of the party to not go in full support of BLM.
 
What country or countries are you referring to?
Scandinavian countries, Sweden. Long ago I used to be on libertarian Facebook pages that communicated internationally and a prominent moderator stated that people in those regions he had talked to had not even conceptualized libertarianism. It was taboo to want to decrease Governmental power in anyway.
 
To use my own experience as an example, I tried cocaine once a long time ago. I smoked pot in college (and tried acid twice).

No way in hell would I ever have tried heroine or meth. The legal or illegal status of the drugs didn't influence any of these choices. It was knowing the risks involved.
I have the same story, minus the cocaine, and mushrooms twice instead of acid. I also would never have tried heroine or meth (although my friends did), and it had nothing to do with legal reasons.

From what I've read, legalizing drugs (see opioid epidemic, which was largely caused by over prescribing) leads to greater levels of addiction. The problem is there are a lot of people who become addicts and think "it won't be me." Obviously, the over prescription problem is 100x worse since these people are trusting their doctors over themselves.

Even in Colorado, marijuana usage, car accidents, hospitalizations went up after legalization. And that's just marijuana.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...ties-legalizing-pot-to-car-accidents-injuries

I still support the legalization of marijuana because of the medical benefits for chronic pain sufferers and others who have crappy doctors who don't believe patients. But it's not some perfectly wonderful thing either.
 
I have the same story, minus the cocaine, and mushrooms twice instead of acid. I also would never have tried heroine or meth (although my friends did), and it had nothing to do with legal reasons.

From what I've read, legalizing drugs (see opioid epidemic, which was largely caused by over prescribing) leads to greater levels of addiction. The problem is there are a lot of people who become addicts and think "it won't be me." Obviously, the over prescription problem is 100x worse since these people are trusting their doctors over themselves.

Even in Colorado, marijuana usage, car accidents, hospitalizations went up after legalization. And that's just marijuana.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...ties-legalizing-pot-to-car-accidents-injuries

I still support the legalization of marijuana because of the medical benefits for chronic pain sufferers and others who have crappy doctors who don't believe patients. But it's not some perfectly wonderful thing either.
That is a good point about traffic fatalities. When pot was illegal, people stayed at home more to smoke. But pot itself has always been hugely prevalent and its legal status didn't seem to influence that.
 

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