Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

Almost all good audiometers do audiograms up to 20khz.

Are you sure about that?

Here in Germany, the University Hospital of Leipzig measures up to 10 kHz ONLY (and they have top quality audiology facilities - otherwise - and with bomb-shelter like sound insulation).

The same is true of the CHARITE hospital in Berlin (the top hospital in Germany). No testing up to 16 kHz even.

The prestigious Acquaklinik here in Leipzig (headed by professor Strauss) only evaluates up till 8 kHz.
 
My ENT told me that it's not always about the device. It's more about the calibration. Although he didn't tell what is the actual limiting factor there (calibration equipment/technician/calibration service/price or something else?).
 
Are you sure about that?

Here in Germany, the University Hospital of Leipzig measures up to 10 kHz ONLY (and they have top quality audiology facilities - otherwise - and with bomb-shelter like sound insulation).

The same is true of the CHARITE hospital in Berlin (the top hospital in Germany). No testing up to 16 kHz even.

The prestigious Acquaklinik here in Leipzig (headed by professor Strauss) only evaluates up till 8 kHz.

100% sure. Personally in 2 different hospitals the audiometer had the ability to do HF audiograms
but fool ENT don't know how to do it. It needs extra headphones especially for HF. So i found neurotologist which known how to do this type of audiogram and performed to me in the same machine other ENT told me before that can not make HF audiogram. It is not nuclear science 20khz is very low frequency in digital signals generally speaking.
My headphones output 20khz but it is not calibrated in db HL is only for screening.
 
Are you sure about that?

The following audiograms are from L Francis (before/after) after 3 x 200 million autologous MSC, all IV delivered.

View attachment 4315

20db difference is not significant if the audiograms is not made in same conditions same machine
(no exposure to noise before/after good sleep/with closed eyes etc)
Also if actual improvement exists this maybe from functional improvement in the mechanics(bones conduction system/bone cochlea etc) of hearing not in hair cell regeneration.
Regeneration of nerves can be done in future with gene therapies but not with stem cells.
These audiograms is from some advertisement or from some clinical study ?
If it is real (to good to be true) personally i will go to do this technique.
What's the prove that these results are real ?
I have seen sensorineural hearing restoration but these cases was when some illness treated
with antibiotics (example lyme borreliosis ) or immunosupressants for autoimmune ear disease.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1060552
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1808-86942012000600022&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en#fig01d
Stem cells maybe help to restore lesions from these type of illnesses or fight the pathogen bacteria
by boosting the immune response not regenerating dead cochlea hair cells.
If this was true for nerve regeneration it will be massively known and will used in many people with real problem. I think is more an advertisement like these tons of magic treatments that cure cancer.

His T relieved with this improvement ? Audiograms lacks mastoid bone conduction hearing thresholds only aural thresholds shown.
 
20db difference is not significant if the audiograms is not made in same conditions same machine

But why wouldn't they be made on the same "machine"? And the hearing loss improvement is in any event up to 35db, at 4 kHz, left ear.

Also if actual improvement exists this maybe from functional improvement in the mechanics(bones conduction system/bone cochlea etc) of hearing not in hair cell regeneration.

If there was a mechanical problem with the middle ear in transmitting sound to the inner ear to begin with, can you then explain to me why the person in question has a hearing threshold of 0 db in the lower frequencies?

Regeneration of nerves can be done in future with gene therapies but not with stem cells.

If that's the case, is there then any particular reason why the FDA approved the following study already a couple of years ago?

http://stemcellstm.alphamedpress.org/site/misc/News012.xhtml

If it is real (to good to be true) personally i will go to do this technique.

I see. And where exactly would you go to get that done?

I have seen sensorineural hearing restoration but these cases was when some illness treated
with antibiotics (example lyme borreliosis ) or immunosupressants for autoimmune ear disease.

That wasn't really the problem with this man. He suffered hearing loss due a blow to the head. Many years before his threatment, that is.

If this was true for nerve regeneration it will be massively known and will used in many people with real problem.

Massively known? If that's the case, then why is cold laser therapy not the dominant therapy in use (instead of hearing aids)?

As for stem cells treatments and being "used in many people", do you think the cost of the treatment might have a factor do to with it not being more widespread?
 
I did some research some time ago. It is not that expensive to test up to 20 000 Hz.
This Audiometer for $3 000 would do the job up to 12 000 Hz.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Welch-Allyn...829?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9e9cc2fd

And with these headphones for $600 it would go up to 20 000 Hz

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...er_hda300_hda_300_audiometers_headphones.html

I include the manual. I would be happy to share it with someone and install it where it would be easily accessible for all of us. I do not know if that is doable?
 

Attachments

  • GSI 61 OP.pdf
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If there was a mechanical problem with the middle ear in transmitting sound to the inner ear to begin with, can you then explain to me why the person in question has a hearing threshold of 0 db in the lower frequencies?

It is known that conduction system amplifies HF and have almost no effect on low F.
Put ear muffs in you ears and check attenuation in low F will be around 15db but in 4khz can be 45db
Otitis media lowers the aural thresholds does not lower the mastoid bone threasholds
and can go away without any medication in 1-6 months.
So without mastoid bone audiogram and without tympanogram iam not believe it i need more prove.Its more unbelievable than tinnitus "miracle cures".
Again it's to good to be true iam almost sure that something other happens and not hair cell regeneration.
 
It is known that conduction system amplifies HF and have almost no effect on low F.

Your knowledge is much too advanced for me to know that kind of thing - so I would not have an opinion on such intricate matters. However, here is what I do know: the logical implication of your statement means that with no amplification in the low frequency range (as you write), the air conduction hearing loss should be more pronounced than in the higher frequencies. Which is the opposite of what the audiograms of L Francis show (both before and after).

So I am getting lost here sadly. Not good. But I am able to share with you an audiogram sample of a person suffering from otosclerosis:
Otosclerosis.jpg


And as you can see, the inner ear, of the right ear (in the above case), works just fine (as indicated by the top line). However, there is air conduction hearing loss due to the condition mentioned - and the loss is significant due to a deviation of more than 10db (between the two tests ie. top and bottom line). Now, the above audiogram does not show a decline of the air conduction thresholds towards the lower frequencies.

So the fact that "amplification" should have played a role in explaining the audiogram of L Francis does not seem obvious to me. But perhaps it does to you?

Otitis media lowers the aural thresholds does not lower the mastoid bone threasholds
and can go away without any medication in 1-6 months.

I would agree with that. But you would see a decrease in AC across the entire audiogram such as the following one (also right ear, but otitis media):
Otitis Media_Audiogram.jpg


So... "amplification"...?

So without mastoid bone audiogram and without tympanogram iam not believe it i need more prove.Its more unbelievable than tinnitus "miracle cures".
I see. Well, I guess my own audiograms are also "miracle cures" and that I have been misleading this board for past 1½ years?

upload_2014-12-29_17-24-56.png


As you can see from the above audiograms, I have recovered 25db at 8 kHz, left ear. And in this case, both air and bone conduction tests were carried out (which you apparently seem so concerned about - not that I understand why, I must admit). And just to be clear: the above audiograms were carried out on the same "machine", same place, etc. And clearly I was not suffering from any condition affecting the middle ear, because that would have presented itself on the audiogram with a deviation between AC and BC.

And just to be clear: a 10db improvement (or more) in hearing threshold is significant (under similar before/after conditions):
With regard to AM-111, the EMA has issued guidance that a 10 dB improvement in hearing thresholds is clinically significant, in line with clinical practice.

Source: Auris Medical Holding AG, Financial Statement 27th June, 2014


Again it's to good to be true iam almost sure that something other happens and not hair cell regeneration.
Does it occur to you that hair cell (re)-generation is not necessary to improve hearing? There are several stages before a hair cell dies.
 
@attheedgeofscience in otosclerosis round window in cochlea is blocked not moves
is a special case of conductive hearing loss that blocks perilymph of doing long waves and can not reach the top of cochlea the wave (is like a 100% full bottle of water when you shake can not do big waves the water only tinny waves/HF waves) for this reason exists LF loss.
Take ear muffs and test you will that ear muffs cut off HF and not so much LF.
Also that audiograms you have shown is a clear improvement if it is true that happens with stem cells and not other mechanism like spontaneous recovery some illness improvement etc.
I must ask you what treatments exactly was done in these cases and where is done (address/telephone/web page).
Can you give more info. If it is true i will go to make this method to myself.
Personally in the past i have recovered 40db in 3khz 50db in 4khz 60db in 6khz and 25db in all frequencies 100% sensorineural not conduction with corticosteroids no stem cells with unknown mechanism of improvement.
The mechanism of sensorineural hearing loss can be due to mechanical reason in cochlea
( distrubuted basilar / reisseners / tectorial membrane ) electrolyte disturb and not from hair cells death. These cases can recover spontaneous or with unknown mechanism after some time.
To prove that stem cells work in hair cells regeneration must be double blind randomized trials
in my opinion and no anecdotal reports.
Anecdotal reports are also important but not so important as clinical trials.
Because all here search for some solution of course we can try anecdotal reports if these does not have side effects. So please can you inform me more about your case and that procedure done and in which clinic ?
 
Take ear muffs and test you will that ear muffs cut off HF and not so much LF.

Ear muffs do not affect the middle ear movement. I trust you would agree.
 
ear muffs affect middle ear because the block air to reach tympanic membrane
so hearing bones does not oscillate by tympani to transmit changes in air pressure to oval window.
Anyway that is out of thread...
Where you got treatment and what treatment for this improvement ?
Had you a diagnosis before for hearing problem ?
 
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/audiome...tor-headphones-high-frequency-testing-hda-280 (195euros the HF calibrated headphones from top manufacturer)+ a pc audiometer software + 0db room + good calibration and you have your HF home made audiometer

The top headphones http://en-de.sennheiser.com/audiome...-testing-closed-dynamic-ear-protector-hda-300

@1MW
Do you have any software to recomend? This was the only one that i could find:
http://www.digital-recordings.com/product.html

They also have a web-based version.

David
 
@1MW
Do you have any software to recomend? This was the only one that i could find:
http://www.digital-recordings.com/product.html

They also have a web-based version.

David

this is ok but you need to calibrate first.
The calibration is hard to do because it needs extra machine
a cheap and effective way to calibrate is a young 18 years with perfect hearing
to take as base of 0db.
Also you need 0db room for very accurate results
 
Hi @Mo_Mo
Yes, the T reduces when your hearing level is recovered, for my experience and @attheedgeofscience SC can improve the hearing as well LLLT.

Yes i have observed this as hearing goes up T goes down and aural fullness in ear improves as hearing goes up.
My hearing improved without stem cells (improved when i was under corticosteroids and other drugs but I don't know if improvement was from steroids or natural spontaneous recovery)
but when my rearing restored almost 100% i developed hyperacusis and very high frequency tinnitus
lower volume than first but higher frequency.
 
HI @1MW

I did reduced from -40 db to -20db just by natural recovery, from January 2014 till June 2014. But after I started the LLLT in June my hearing just got much better. You can see the audiograms here, special in the lows. No change in the high´s as yo can see. I now have 0 db on the 8Mhz n(made in another machine so I will not say is 100% correct to compare with others audiograms made in different machines)

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...us-—-general-discussion-dr-wilden.295/page-14

Those audiograms results are only based on LLLT. I made a SC in September and got a decrease in my T as well. But SC treatment is not a proved concept at all concerning T.
I will pretend to make another audiogram in end of January, as I said I will compare only when they are made in the same machine. In the in my opinion, the SC and LLLT together are best way to get your hearing back, and decrease T., unless of corse you have natural regeneration as I did on the first 6 months.

All the best.
 
What is SC and LLLT treatments ?
Can you give address / web site / telephone of clinic doing these therapies ?
 
SC = stem cells.
LLLT = low level laser therapy.
 
Again please can you give me web sites / telephones of clinics that use these methods.
I want to see if that are clinics with reputability.

I agree that you have seen improvement but this maybe due to natural healing.
I want to see if these methods have scientifically resonance.

For stem cells i know that work for other illnesses but i want to see exactly the method.
 
I think a treatment that costs 25000 to 30000 dollars ought to bring total relief, not a subjective improvement. Don't get me wrong, but this is mainly why only 2 have tried it and why others hesitate or cannot follow...

Questionable experimental therapies, should they provide results they 'd be dominant treatments one way or the other, meaning more people would try them and more people would be cured by them. And more companies would support them and the prices would drop.

There is a big IF there, that is not answered positively yet, so it is safe to assume that such treatments are not realy treatments at all. They may never will be. They are just shots in the dark. I don't want to discourage anyone, but this amount of money shouldn't be spent on experimental procedures such as these, that fail to provide really good, objectively measured results.

Don't get me wrong, I wish our 2 lovely guys who tried it had been cured for good and had much to tell. But the results they got didn't encourage anyone else to try. Really guys thank you for your support and being true to us, means A LOT. If only you'd come back cured...

On the other hand, if you don't try it, you may never know! So I don't discourage anyone to participate, I just think in this expermental stage prices ought to be completely different. Otherwise they just give more reason for bad companies to appear on the horizon that just exploit people's suffering and take away their money... And such companies wouldn't really pay the proper attention to the treatment's sideffects now would they?
 
think a treatment that costs 25000 to 30000 dollars ought to bring total relief, not a subjective improvement. Don't get me wrong, but this is mainly why only 2 have tried it and why others hesitate or cannot follow...
Agree 100%.

But LLLT is a proved therapy, you will gain earing, the question goes if it´s enouph to end T. and cost are way lower. still expensive but not way close to the cost of the SC.

Even do I feel LLLT did more for T, I do not regrat of doing it. Ovaral I feel better, and now I would be asking myself if I should do it or not. That´s way I´m.

Have a good year.
Sheers
 
I think a treatment that costs 25000 to 30000 dollars ought to bring total relief, not a subjective improvement. Don't get me wrong, but this is mainly why only 2 have tried it and why others hesitate or cannot follow...

Questionable experimental therapies, should they provide results they 'd be dominant treatments one way or the other, meaning more people would try them and more people would be cured by them. And more companies would support them and the prices would drop.

There is a big IF there, that is not answered positively yet, so it is safe to assume that such treatments are not realy treatments at all. They may never will be. They are just shots in the dark. I don't want to discourage anyone, but this amount of money shouldn't be spent on experimental procedures such as these, that fail to provide really good, objectively measured results.

Don't get me wrong, I wish our 2 lovely guys who tried it had been cured for good and had much to tell. But the results they got didn't encourage anyone else to try. Really guys thank you for your support and being true to us, means A LOT. If only you'd come back cured...

On the other hand, if you don't try it, you may never know! So I don't discourage anyone to participate, I just think in this expermental stage prices ought to be completely different. Otherwise they just give more reason for bad companies to appear on the horizon that just exploit people's suffering and take away their money... And such companies wouldn't really pay the proper attention to the treatment's sideffects now would they?

I totally agree! Thanks!
 
But LLLT is a proved therapy, you will gain earing, the question goes if it´s enouph to end T. and cost are way lower. still expensive but not way close to the cost of the SC.
LLLT is extremely expensive for a light shone in your ears for half an hour.
$5000 to shine a filtered high power flashlight in your ear....hmm.
 

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