Is LLLT for Tinnitus by Dr. Wilden a Scam?

[Henry1492]

You still haven't answered my very logical question: why did you create a new account to create this thread, instead of just posting this from your existing, well-known account on this forum?

I answered that question already twice in my first and again in my second post, let me repeat it for the third time:

I started my discussion as a new thread because many people at tinnitus talk approach this subject in the dark with preconceived notions. Many people want to convince themselves that there is a "magical cure" in the application of an instrument that Dr. Wilden promotes. Yet to this date, Dr. Wilden has avoided any involvement in clinical studies, which can easily test and determine effectiveness of treatment. Therefore, I am asking for any solid proof that "LLLT" therapy works significantly better than placebo.

 

[Henry1492]

Bobby B, do you think that repeated copying and pasting articles that have nothing to prove will somehow cure your Tinnitus?

 

[Aussie Lea]

Bobby B, do you think that repeated copying and pasting articles that have nothing to prove will somehow cure your Tinnitus?

Do you think you repeating your tiring worthless comments will somehow cure your Tinnitus?

Everybody knows you have a personal vendetta against Dr. Wilden. You are making a fool of yourself. Leave before you are laughed out.

 

[linearb]

I answered that question already twice in my first and again in my second post, let me repeat it for the third time:

I started my discussion as a new thread because many people at tinnitus talk approach this subject in the dark with preconceived notions. Many people want to convince themselves that there is a "magical cure" in the application of an instrument that Dr. Wilden promotes. Yet to this date, Dr. Wilden has avoided any involvement in clinical studies, which can easily test and determine effectiveness of treatment. Therefore, I am asking for any solid proof that "LLLT" therapy works significantly better than placebo.

That's not what I asked, though. I asked why you registered a new forum account to make this thread, instead of using your old account.

I also asked why you are hell-bent on confusing lllt with Dr. Shemesh, when they are completely unrelated.

I am, personally, very skeptical of lllt... but you're downright disingenuous. Seems like a weird target for such spite, given the large number of things in this forum which are clearly total nonsense.

 

[Bobby B]

Bobby B, do you think that repeated copying and pasting articles that have nothing to prove will somehow cure your Tinnitus?

I don't have the expectation that it will cure chronic tinnitus .

That's not the way it works .

You seem to be repeating the same thing over and over.

I don't see where de Wilden made such claim. If he did then prove it to us.

It does however improves issues where nerve damage is involved as per the human study I posted.

Those patients were cured where drugs didn't work. So it must be doing something doesn't it ?

Reactive tinnitus to sound , ear pain to sounds , hyperacusis and changes in hearing range and sound quality and yes I got all of the above .

I have audiograms that can show improvements in audio range so the claims made by dr Wilden are already met.

I am not selling anything here - I don't have an agenda and I never met or spoken to dr. Wilden either .

LLLT may not cure chronic tinnitus but it did change the sound characteristics - from a loud hiss in the first months which made wearing ear muffs very uncomfortable to a soft wind which is a lot easier to tune out side the day .

This change in tone and volume makes a huge difference to help habituation .
This is exaclty what Wilden wrote to one of his patient and it's happening as well.
T becomes thinner and easier to habituate but won't completely dissapear.

 

[ragnaboz2]

I read with much interest replies of Bobby B, Ragnoboz 2 and attheedgeofscience defending the LLLT.

My logical questions is: have the three of you been cured / significantly helped by LLLT or you wrote your contributions only to keep your spirits up ?

Dear Henry;
I really wnat to know what is the problem between you and wilden? As I said before I've never met with wilden, never went to his clinic/office. Again I want to kno the exact reason of just crossing the wilden and shemesh in the same place? ;Their work is not equal/identical (actually thinhs that been carried out by shemesh wouldn't called be "work").

I don't know thw others but yes LLLT significantly helped me, in manner of audiograms and tinnitus level. I have a personality like never getting used to this sound, so yes definitely helped, and contiues to help.

After this , I will not answer to your questions because I don't want to waste my precious time. I prefer it to use in my lab in the faculty working on the K channels, receptors, ligands etc.

 

[japongus]

With this said - as Dr. Nagler has expressed and other noted persons in the field of Tinnitus, at this juncture of time there is NO CURE FOR TINNITUS.

That's funny because Dr Nagler is a radical Jastreboffite and they all believe that sound pain and hyperacusis and TTTS has a cure and its name is sound therapy. Of course, they fit in their half-assed phony logic however they feel convenient, which is why ''they don't cure tinnitus and only habituate you to it'' while simultaneously ''they cure you from hyperacusis/sound sensitivity/TTTS'' or whatever the fuck sound induced pain is because it would be too trippy to try to make the claim they're habituating you to sound pain without getting rid of the sound pain in any way shape or form.

 

[japongus]

But we already have independant double blind studies on LLLT and cochlear regeneration and prevention due to noise damage.

We already have anecdotal evidence from credible long time poster like ATEOS who got some hearing loss improvements on LLLT.

Some even posted audio grams

I already have had my 20% hearing loss improvement since my 4khz 35db dip improved to 25 Db so as far as I am concerned the Wilden ballpark average result claim has been met after 2-3 months on LLLT

When I started LLLT I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss any opportunity to get some hearing back

Worst case scenario it does nothing at all and I have wasted 2100 usd but that amount has zero effect whatsoever on my life overall

Unlike the trobalt stuff - no double blind studies here as well btw- you don't risk permanent and risky side effects and in a one year long Treatment the money spent would be close to medication costs as well anyways

As long as you set you expections right - no tinnitus cure !

So tell me why are you coming up with theories about cochlear microphonics to prove your supposed non-placebo improvement when your tinnitus is from november of 2015? Are you kidding me, november of 2015??? Tell me why ECochG isn't good enough to prove cochlear microphonics are being improved by this test, and tell me why we should care about hearing loss or presbycusis if some of us don't have any hearing loss and yet have tinnitus and rumbling and sound sensitivity... And why make a hodge-podge of reasons for why it works, either its cochlear microphonics or trigeminal nerve coating, if you go for both its not serious.

Of course Wilden is a scammer on various levels. Like Joaquin Prosper, who set up a franchise of clinics in Spain for LLLT. One level is that the laser is available for cheaper straight from China. Another is that despite having had ample opportunity to do so, they haven't differentiated the very narrow etiology this might be working for from those who don't, ie maybe those with or without vertigo, those who might have herpes, and so on. Joaquin Prosper was such a scumbag he tried to fudge the before and after treatment LDL testing in true Argentinian scammer fashion tried to claim he had suddenly discovered I had misophonia and therefore couldn't help me. And Wilden has an overpriced laser in Ibiza so he can snorkel in Formentera and one in Germany so his probably lazyass son can bluff his way into an easy job with no knowledge whatsoever of middle ear mechanics. And when you complain that some of those tests had 5mw, take into account that back in the 90s thats what Wilden was using.

 

[Bobby B]

TRT can be dangerous

It makes you believe you can expose yourself to normally loud sounds and this can make it worse real quick if your have noise induced inner ear damage

Works fine for unknown / stress induced t though

 

[Bobby B]

Laser isn't going to cure you of tinnitus - Wilden says people get a 20 % avg improvement in hearing range which I got too

Maybe the t sound is reduced by 20 to 50 % depending on the day

Reactive T is gone and H too but those 2 were recent and I started a powerful phototherapy course a month after onset - if it's chronic I doubt LLLT or any treatment will work at all

The animal studies showed that nerve regeneration and noise damaged cochlear regeneration on LLLT work up to a certain time frame

 

[jdjd09]

I have audiograms that can show improvements in audio range

@Bobby B , can you please link to those in the forum? I didn't get to see these.

Laser isn't going to cure you of tinnitus - Wilden says people get a 20 % avg improvement in hearing range which I got too

Maybe the t sound is reduced by 20 to 50 % depending on the day

Reactive T is gone and H too but those 2 were recent and I started a powerful phototherapy course a month after onset - if it's chronic I doubt LLLT or any treatment will work at all

The animal studies showed that nerve regeneration and noise damaged cochlear regeneration on LLLT work up to a certain time frame

@Bobby B , from what you know, could LLLT help with someone who has 40db loss at 8khz, 30db at 6khz, and 30db and 4khz? If it started about 4-5 months ago? Or is it too late at this point?

Is there any study that hints its not too late?

 

[lymebite]

Is there any study that hints its not too late?

In the Dr. Wilden study on audiometry improvements, the average duration of inner ear disease prior to LLLT treatment was 5.9 years.

The link below is not a direct link - you will need to page down the screen almost halfway until you reach the Dr. Wilden study entitled "On the Effectiveness of Low Level Laser Light (LLLL) in the Inner Ear."

http://www.healinglightseminars.com...y/ear-hearing-loss-tinnitus-menieres-disease/

 

[japongus]

Laser isn't going to cure you of tinnitus - Wilden says people get a 20 % avg improvement in hearing range which I got too

Maybe the t sound is reduced by 20 to 50 % depending on the day

Reactive T is gone and H too but those 2 were recent and I started a powerful phototherapy course a month after onset - if it's chronic I doubt LLLT or any treatment will work at all

The animal studies showed that nerve regeneration and noise damaged cochlear regeneration on LLLT work up to a certain time frame

pfff... anyone can pump up their stats with short-time frame patients, its the long-time frame ones that have merits. Short-time frame patients is what OTC penny-stock traders try to do with their magic potions in Wall Street and we've seen it on this forum. But something serious is getting a conference with hundreds and hundreds of participants like tinnet, no wild Silicon Valley type valuations, just covering the cost of the researchers travel expenses. And besides, Wilden contradicts himself or you and claims improvements in longer term for his pastiche of half-baked reasons for the narrow, oportunistic and contradictory pastiche of etiologies he inadvertently hints to possibly affecting.

 

[Bobby B]

I have no idea what you are saying

I am not dr Wilden and I really don't care what he thinks - I don't have a laser light business to run .

Anyone who makes a living out of some special techniques - being TRT , LLLT or making clean diesel cars is going to be biased towards those and trying various borderline tricks to pump up business their way.

It's not even a scam - that's how business is run so take those claims with a grain of salt and make your own decisions .

The fact is that independent double blind animal studies showed that the effect of phototherapy do work on nerve and cochlear hair cells regeneration - but do not work well after some time so I see no reason to wait .

Maybe in humans it's different and the time span is longer but to what extent does remains to be seen.

Don't wait . If you have an acoustic trauma and notice hearing loss then do it ASAP.

 

[Foncky]

Maybe I'll try LLLT. Getting back a few dbs in the high frequencies would be huge for me I think.

One thing I don't get : why is Dr. Wilden on the island of Ibiza ? Isn't it one of the noisier places in the world ? Isn't it stupid ?

 

[Bobby B]

If you want real noisy go to any big Asian city - Ibiza is nice and sunny better than a boring cold rainy German small town where he was for decades doing ENT work before moving to Ibiza just a few years ago

His office isn't in the middle of a nightclub dance floor so no worries

 

[Foncky]

I just find it really ironical that many tinnitus & hyperacusis sufferers fly to Ibiza to get a treatment

It must be a personal bias : I absolutely love boring and rainy German small towns.

 

[Bobby B]

One thing though - where Wilden is spot on and for that I am thankful beyond words is his very strong point of religiously protecting you ears from any mildly loud noises - cars, trains, shopping malls etc.. I did that for the last few months and that certainly helped a lot with my progress.

 

[Reinier]

religiously protecting you ears from any mildly loud noises - cars, trains, shopping malls etc.. I did that for the last few months and that certainly helped a lot with my progress.

If I can "butt in ".
I have been doing the same thing. Instinctively protecting because sounds are so uncomfortable. Perhaps this is delaying getting used to normal sounds again? Unfortunately after almost one year my hyperacusis does not seem to be getting better.

I am following this thread because I am not yet convinced either way. Is LLLT able to elevate hyperacusis or not?
At the moment I feel there are not enough people with positive experiences.
It is not that I do not believe people that have the positive experiences. That is simply not the case. At the moment I feel there are not enough people with positive experiences opposed to people that notice no improvement.
I will keep following this thread a while longer before I decide to spend the money. It is a lot of money.
I know, it is worth the money if it works.

 

[japongus]

I have no idea what you are saying

I am not dr Wilden and I really don't care what he thinks - I don't have a laser light business to run .

Anyone who makes a living out of some special techniques - being TRT , LLLT or making clean diesel cars is going to be biased towards those and trying various borderline tricks to pump up business their way.

It's not even a scam - that's how business is run so take those claims with a grain of salt and make your own decisions .

The fact is that independent double blind animal studies showed that the effect of phototherapy do work on nerve and cochlear hair cells regeneration - but do not work well after some time so I see no reason to wait .

Maybe in humans it's different and the time span is longer but to what extent does remains to be seen.

Don't wait . If you have an acoustic trauma and notice hearing loss then do it ASAP.

Auris Medical shares vs http://tinnet.tinnitusresearch.net/

Wilden is a scam on various levels. Even if LLLT works, number 1 you can get it yourself way cheaper from China. Otoclinica even uses the very same laser we have a direct link to in the forum from lucky laser. And number 2, he's had many years to do a placebo test and to differentiate the vastly different types of sound pain and sound sensitivity out there and instead has opted for the scammy approach by claiming cures all types of ''hyperacusis''.

And if that isn't enough, Wilden's laser is actually weaker than the lucky laser one, and in the past when lasers weren't as advanced and as cheap as they were now, Wilden has been associated with using 5mw lasers and claiming benefits from them, the same ones he claims too weak and the reason for failures on independant testing.

As for the rest of what you said, its the same old salespeak that has gotten where he is, to take advantage of recent impact tinnitus patients to improve his statistics, like auris medical and other penny stocks on this forum, despite how lymebite says he's contradicted himself.

 

[Bobby B]

@Reinier
in both our case T and H are symptoms of the inner damage.

I don' have brain or anxiety issues and my left ear is damaged but the right is fine and they react differently to noise.

The body can heal the ear to a certain degree but if the damage is very extensive then its going to be hard.

Photo therapy - does not have to be laser - helps the healing but there has to be some healing possible.

Wearing ear protection is essential it may not help improve if the damage is too much but it surely helps it not getting worse.

A few people killed themselves over painful H you really don't want that

1600 USD isn't that much if it can bring a little bit of an improvement, unless you live in a developed country.

Also LLLT can protect hair cells from future noise damage, there is one study on that, so ask yourself if its important to protect your remaining healthy cells for the rest of your life and how much would you pay for that ?

lasers have a 20,000 hours lifespan - at 15 minutes per day that's 200 years

 

[Reinier]

1600 USD isn't that much if it can bring a little bit of an improvement

That is just it: "if". The same evaluation I made with my neuromodulator therapy I am doing at the moment. No undisputed prove is documented. Yet I made the decision to do the therapy. Perhaps I will do the same with LLLT. Still deciding.

lasers have a 20,000 hours lifespan - at 15 minutes per day that's 200 years

I am not worried that I will wear out lasers.

I have been thinking about one session in Sweden (or was it Norway?). If I notice something after a session, it could help me make the decision. Again spending quite a lot of money with travel, hotel etc..
I know one session will not be enough to get an improvement, but I can know if something is happening.
If this session does not change anything inside my ears I am not left with an LLLT set I will not be using any more.
On the other hand, money spend on a session can also be spend on my own laser set.

 

[lymebite]

If this session does not change anything inside my ears I am not left with an LLLT set I will not be using any more. On the other hand, money spend on a session can also be spend on my own laser set.

Why not try a Konftec? They say you can return the laser for a refund within 90 days (less a 15 percent restocking fee) if it is not effective. So plenty of time to see whether or not it has an effect.

http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/Auricular_Laser_Comparison.htm

http://www.konftec.com/html/EN/MoneyBack.htm

 

[Reinier]

@lymebite Thanks. I will have a look. Although I am careful with "money back guaranties". But the conditions for the money back guarantee are clear enough to look legitimate.
This is cheaper than going to Norway (or is it Sweden).

 

[Bobby B]

@Reinier
are you getting any results from the neuromodulator therapy ? how much does it cost ?

 

[lapidus]

@lymebiteNorway (or is it Sweden).

Both. Anne is in Norway and Zazzio is in Sweden.

 

[Reinier]

are you getting any results from the neuromodulator therapy ? how much does it cost ?

I am not sure yet. The tinnitus is still there.
My last update you can see here: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...reatment-for-tinnitus.219/page-15#post-177515
When I have tinnitus it is difficult to be objective. Also when my tinnitus is low it is difficult to be objective.
Cautiously I think the quiet (3 out of 10 an very occasionally even lower) episodes are getting longer.
The price was 3015 Euro.
One of the reasons I am cautious throwing more money at the problem when I am still in the middle of this therapy.

 

[Reinier]

Both. Anne is in Norway and Zazzio is in Sweden.

I did not realize both Sweden and Norway have a clinic for LLLT.
At the moment I am reading the LLLT thread to see if I can make my mind up.

 

[Bobby B]

I don't think LLLT is going to do much for baseline chronic T in general, at least not in only a few months of use...and even then its not going to be a major change..but it does work for H and reactive T and hearing range improvements to some degree - anything that is related to nerves healing will improve with LLLT so if you get T improvements with your Neuromod then hopefully LLLT will help with H but don't get the cheap low power one - konfec is only 63mw that is not much.

The beam has to reach the nerves that are behind the cochela which is itself behind a very thick bone - the thickest in the skull - which is itself behind a skin layer so that's a lot for the light to go through to even get there...

In the angle of the drawing on that site it may appear that the cochlea is just in front of the eardrum which is just straight at the end of the ear canal but thats not the case if you look from other angles and everybody has slightly different ear canal shapes and cochlea placements in relation to it.

keep you money and I would go to Zazzio in Sweden he uses very powerful lasers - and short times - for H.
Or get the lucky laser - there is a reason why its not listed in that comparison chart created by Konfec...

 

[Reinier]

Thanks
I looked it up. Apparently the clinic is specialised in hyperacusis. Hyperacusis is bothering me the most at the moment.
I will have a better look tomorrow.
Enough time spend on this forum today
I need a break.